Talk:Samira Efendi

Controversial statements regarding 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh War

The repeated addition and removal of content regarding Efendi's statements about Armenians and support for Ilham Aliyev was recently brought to Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard by Grandmaster. I agreed with their opinion there that the content does not seem adequately sourced for these types of claims in a WP:BLP article when only sourced to a single article on PopMatters, and I wanted to start a discussion on this article's talk page so that there could be discussion about the issue and other editors could be aware of the BLPN discussion. – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 18:09, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

There are multiple sources, not just one, including this, this, this,this and this. I just listed several sources which talk about her statements and the petition, now may I add this information to her Wiki page? KhndzorUtogh (talk) 22:25, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for your assistance with this issue. Indeed, 1 not most authoritative source is absolutely insufficient for such claims in a BLP article. Grandmaster 18:41, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

Armenia–Azerbaijan relations in the Eurovision Song Contest is the appropriate article for this information.BabbaQ (talk) 08:40, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

User:KhndzorUtogh, User:Grandmaster, user:BabbaQ The AA relations in Eurovision Song Contest article is definitely relevant (as Efendy's participation in Eurovision with that controversy being discussed created the scandal) and it is worth mentioning this controversy there as well, however the fact itself that Efendy's media personality goes beyond Eurovision - she is a popular single in Azerbaijan and the fact that there is a Change.org campaign about her controversial behaviour towards the war cited by several sources can and should be mentioned. It is not an attempt to artificially besmirch her reputation by any means, we are strictly limited by what those sources write. If she denied those accusations, we will cite that as well. --Armatura (talk) 21:06, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

The thing is that no reliable source reported on this. And we need very good quality sources for these kind of claims about a living person. Grandmaster 21:58, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

KhndzorUtogh brought several sources above - are you saying none of them is reliable and why? They are reporting on the existence of petition which is openly available on change.org and which everyone can check - what's unreliable here? They're secondary sources, unlike the change.org itself, hence they are very suitable for the purpose. --Armatura (talk) 22:24, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

None of them is a mainstream source. Some Armenian propaganda websites, among them Sputnik, which is deprecated, an Azerbaijani website denying Armenian website, and one obscure website. None of those is a reliable source. As for petition, anyone can create one. Why is it even a news? Grandmaster 22:51, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

It is no surprise that you don't like the idea of an Azerbaijani singer being "framed" on wiki for controversial behavior, and Sputnik is a deprecated sources, ok, but how do you define "mainstream source" and "obscure website"? And what are your reliable sources or criteria to call those sources "Armenian propaganda websites"? Anybody can create a petition, that's true, but when the petition gains thousands of signatures and is featured in the news articles, then does become notable, whether we like the subject of the petition or not. We are not revealing or righting wrongs here, or confirm that she really did what she is accused of, we are citing news articles that reference the petition which does mention unacceptable behaviour, and it's part of the reality. Petitions have effect, and are important as you can see from here: https://www.ch@nge.org/l/us/change-org-releases-top-ten-petitions-that-changed-2020 . If there was no checkable primary source, your arguments may have grounds, but we can all see those articles are telling the reality - there is such a petition, the "unreliable" argument does not stand here. Although the sources interet the petition differently, there is a consensus between those sources (including the Azerbaijani ones like Zerkalo.az) for one thing - there is such a petition and it was notable enough to write about it in those sources. --Armatura (talk) 23:15, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

An online petition that had no effect whatsoever is not an important event in person's life. Plus, this is a BLP article. For controversial and slanderous information we need top quality sources. Previous AA controversies were covered by mainstream international sources, such as BBC or RFL. This one was not even a minor issue, it received no reaction from EBU, or any notable international source or organization. So someone in Armenia got upset with her posing with national flag and started an online petition, why is it an important event in a singer's life? Grandmaster 11:03, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Disagree. That's a trivialisation argument at best. We have already seen such arguments in the case of Qarabağ FC manager Nurlan Ibrahimov. Efendi essentially did what Qarabağ FC manager Nurlan Ibrahimov did during the Nagorno-Karabakh war (and got rightfully got banned by UEFA for it.). She's lucky she's not banned yet and it is not up to us to forecast whether she will ever be. But this is not about what Eurovision committee decides, this is about what she was reported about. We can all read English and see that it's not just "taking a photo with Azeri flag", - she was reported to be engaged in hate speech and discrimination, encouraging the killing of Armenians and attacking Armenians by sharing taglines that called Armenians “terrorists” and making a mockery of war-displaced Armenians, as the secondary sources report. And exactly in that proper attribution format her reported actions should be cited. And who says it should be mandatorily written by BBC to count? - she is not a world known pop star but a singer of local significance who finished the 20th in Eurovision contest. --Armatura (talk) 13:20, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

I don't see a single reliable source writing anything remotely close to what you wrote. Some Armenian websites accused her, but EBU did not see any problem, and showed no interest in Armenian media allegations. WP:DUE. We cannot give weight to insignificant events. Grandmaster 14:45, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

What I don't see from you is a critical analysis of the provided sources you keep labeling as "unreliable", without actually explaining why and how they are unreliable, could this be a case of IJDLI? Taken Sputnik out, none of them is deprecated source, and I personally don't see a problem with citing from them, of course with proper NPOV language and attribution. If there is a source saying she's innocent, please make sure to cite it as well, I will be glad. --Armatura (talk) 14:57, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

I already said that this story received no coverage in mainstream media, and no reaction from EBU or any other organization. It was just a futile attempt by some people to stir some controversy. No notability. Grandmaster 16:51, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Again, the Armenia–Azerbaijan relations in the Eurovision Song Contest should be used for that information. Or possibly the Eurovision 2021 article itself. Her own article will likely never be appropriate for such trivial information.BabbaQ (talk) 14:01, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

I don't see a problem with that - happy to WP:BOLD a paragraph about reports on Efendi controversy in Eurovision 2021 and Armenia–Azerbaijan relations in the Eurovision Song Contest articles, as relevant to both, but equally happy if KhndzorUtogh does that as he found all those sources. --Armatura (talk) 14:14, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

At best this could be mentioned in Armenia–Azerbaijan relations in the Eurovision Song Contest in the form that Armenian media said this, Azerbaijani media said that, but I don't think that media allegations in Armenia have enough weight for Eurovision 2021 in general. Grandmaster 14:51, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Good that everybody agrees that this controversy has its place in Wikipedia. But it's not that simple binary "Armenian vs Azerbaijani media" case. PopMatters, for instance, is a neutral website, neither Armenian nor Azerbaijani. We'll attribute, of course. And I didn't get the "enough weight for Eurovision 2021" argument - what is considered "enough weight" and which WP guidelines you are referring to by saying that? The same PopMatters, for instance, considered it as having enough weight to be included in their Eurovision 2021 article. --Armatura (talk) 15:18, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

PopMatters is not really a source of global or international importance. Just another website that writes about music. As I said above, this story did not generate enough publicity to merit a mention in the general article. Most of sources that wrote about Eurovision made no mention of it. I myself follow the Eurovision, and this is where I found out about this "controversy". Even in Azerbaijan very few people heard of it, and even yellow press showed no interest. Grandmaster 17:00, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Mmm, I trust your experience within certain limits, Grandmaster, and I like your ability to peacefully engage in discussions, but I would not take the perceived lack of interest by Azerbaijani press as a criterion for non-notability. It's not a secret that in Azerbaijan the press (including the yellow one) is almost entirely controlled by the state, with one of the worst indices of press freedom in the world. I can tell you my own experience - I was checking both Armenian and Azerbaijani major news outlets at the beginning of the current border crisis since May 12 and noticed that although Armenian and International sources started reporting straightaway, there was stony silence in Azerbaijani media for around 48 hours ... I was looking at both articles - the candidates for the controversy and I can see that it is already in 2021 Eurovision article, hence let's continue the discussion on that talk page if you want. My opinion remains that both articles - 1) the 2021 Eurovision and 2) AA relations in Eurovision should contain the controversy paragraph as both clearly relevant to the subject. --Armatura (talk) 21:55, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Everyone in Azerbaijan has a free access to the internet, and social media. Most independent media functions online, but even the staunchest opposition news outlets paid almost no attention to this "controversy". Same is true for yellow press. As for border crisis, it is a crisis in Armenia, not in Azerbaijan. It does not get as much reaction, because we are kind of used to being threatened on our own territory. I still don't think that this particular story deserves a mention in 2021 Eurovision article due to very limited coverage outside of Armenia. I joined the discussion there, thanks for the heads up. Grandmaster 23:36, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

The Internet in Azerbaijan is government controlled and has been fairly obvious about systematic government filtering or blocking of the Internet, the government also maintains a heavy-handed approach to political opposition in online forums.

- I took this from the Internet in Azerbaijan article which cites OpenNet Initiative. Something not accessible in Azerbaijan is not a criterion for non-notability, my opinion remains due to this. As for where to put the controversy paragraph - I am fine with any of the three candidate pages suggested so far. Thanks. --Armatura (talk) 00:53, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

Not true. Internet is available to everyone with no restriction. How do you think people from Azerbaijan edit Wikipedia? And there is a number of opposition websites or news outlets based in West Europe or USA. I don't see any extensive or even minor coverage from them. Even the likes of BBC Azerbaijan service or RFL Azerbaijan sponsored by the Western governments did not find it important enough to cover. Grandmaster 08:56, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

Forgive me for giving a priority to reliable neutral sources in this case - see the indices of internet cencorship and press freedom in Azerbaijan yourself - Google via TOR network / international proxy. I have no appetite of continuing a discussion the moment I see a hard denial which ignores hard facts. Putin will deny that Russia is not a democracy. Lukashenko will deny that he hijacked that flight just to arrest his opponent. Aliyev will deny what BBC journalist says about Azeri-shelled Ghazanchetsots Church, calling everything she with her own eyes "fake news". Erdogan will deny the genocides Young Turks organised. Serj Sarkisyan and Robert Kocharyan will deny that they were corrupt leaders, and so on and so forth. Denial is neither helpful nor acceptable, not here not elsewhere. --Armatura (talk) 17:25, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

Believing something or not is up to you, but I stand by what I say. Even the news outlets based in the West did not pick up on this story, and this includes Azerbaijani services of BBC and RFL, and VOA. I hope you will not insist that those are controlled by Azerbaijan. Grandmaster 07:53, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

I'd like to share a Shant TV report of Samira Efendi from March 2021, where Artyom Yerkanyan, a highly respected journalist who visited Azerbaijan in 2019, critisized Efendi for her racist comments. Hope this helps. Noonewiki (talk) 23:25, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Again, minor local news coverage. No one knows of this outside of Armenia. I understand that some people in Armenia tried to prevent Azerbaijan from participating this year, but failed. EBU did not find it to be worthy of any attention. Grandmaster 23:44, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Hi, just dropping in here. I'm the one who reverted the bold addition of this controversy to Eurovision Song Contest 2021 (before I actually knew about the existence of this discussion). I and a few others have actually been trying to keep the number of incidents mentioned to only the things that directly impacted the contest, as otherwise it would be a really long list. I also believe that it doesn't really belong in Armenia–Azerbaijan relations in the Eurovision Song Contest for a similar reason. However, I think that Azerbaijan in the Eurovision Song Contest 2021 would be an appropriate place. Those kinds of articles generally deal with these participation-specific controversies already, and I think it'd fit right underneath the internal selection section. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 00:22, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for joining, your help is much appreciated. I totally agree with you, but I just think that a more appropriate place for this would be Armenia–Azerbaijan relations in the Eurovision Song Contest, as other uninvolved editors proposed. Armenia and Azerbaijan have been at odds since the day they joined the contest, and regional tensions spilled over to relations between the countries at the music festival as well. That's why there's an article dedicated specifically to that topic. In my view, this whole thing is not worthy a mention even there, as it generated no real publicity outside of Armenia, and no official reaction, but if we really must mention it somewhere, the article about relations between the countries at the contest would be the best place. Grandmaster 08:56, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

Why would that article be better than Azerbaijan in the Eurovision Song Contest 2021 though? Isn't the participation-specific page more specific than the Armenia–Azerbaijan relations article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jochem van Hees (talk • contribs)

Because this story had no impact on Azerbaijan's performance at Eurovision 2021. But stories like that are something regular for Armenia-Azerbaijan relations at Eurovision. In 2016, there was a bigger scandal when the Armenian performer Iveta Mukuchyan waved the separatist flag. It was a real scandal, with EBU officially condemning the move, and Azerbaijan issuing an official statement. It is mentioned in Armenia–Azerbaijan relations in the Eurovision Song Contest, but not in Armenia in the Eurovision Song Contest 2016. The incident we discuss here was minor, just someone in Armenia got upset with Instagram photos and started an online petition, but it had no consequences. Considering the actual weight of the event, and how previous controversies were dealt with, I think this story is a better fit to Armenia-Azerbaijan relations at Eurovision. Grandmaster 08:09, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

It also didn't have any impact on the relation between the countries though. Looking at that article, this story would probably be short single paragraph in a "2021 contest" section that is even more insignificant than the 2019 one. But looking through other "Country in the Eurovision Song Contest year" articles, I could not find a single one that mentions a controversy as insignificant as this one. Russia in the Eurovision Song Contest 2021 does not mention the huge amount of hate towards Manizha that was even picked up by major international news networks like the BBC, and in fact that is mentioned nowhere on Wikipedia. I'm starting to think we just shouldn't include it at all. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 09:43, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

Indeed, this had no impact on relations between the two states, but I think it was a part of the interaction between the countries at the contest. Grandmaster 10:02, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

Insignificant for whom? It is very significant at least to a whole nation. She made those repulsive statements in the heat of devastating 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war which was full of interethnic hatred and which left thousands killed on both sides and which generated a Genocide Alert. It's like Hutus killing Tootsies en masse and some Hutu singer making this kind of statements and then singing in Eurovision as if nothing happened, like it's all cool. Things have to be viewed in context and in that context what she said / did was significant. You can see a similar behaviour was so significant that UEFA banned an Azeri football club manager for that. I am very open to suggestions as to where to insert the paragraph but strongly against dismissing it altogether. --Armatura (talk) 14:40, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

Yes, of course! The Nagorno-Karabakh war was very notable. But I mean significance for the Eurovision Song Contest. You said: "(...) and then singing in Eurovision as if nothing happened, like it's all cool." But that happens all the time in Eurovision. Israel competed while there was still an active conflict with Palestine, and that didn't impact their participation at all, because Eurovision is an apolitical event. And although the Nagorno-Karabakh war was somewhat significant because it led to Armenia's withdrawal, this specific controversy ended up not affecting the contest, and not even affecting the war. Things don't have to be "viewed in context" because it is not part of the context. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 14:51, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

Eurovision is supposed to be apolitical but it clearly isn't. There is a 9+K-signatures-strong campaign addressed to EBU to disqualify Efendi https://www.ch*nge.org/p/european-broadcasting-union-demand-ebu-to-cancel-efendi-and-azerbaijan-from-eurovision-2021-ca5cffe2-1cb8-418e-a978-35e9f7ce1e61, in the context of what she did. Michael Jackson may or may not have molested children, and he did not end up in prison eventually, but the campaigns and accusations were significant and reported on by third party sources and they are now in his biography article. I understand the sensitivity about BLP hence not insisting on including those accusations in Efendi's bio page, but equally things she is accused of are notable enough to be included somewhere in Wikipedia - we can decide together where (I'd personally go for Azerbaijan in 2021 Eurovision). Eurovision Song Contest is relevant to the extent of her being the participant of that contest shortly after the devastating events (which she behaved insensitive to) and the campaign being directed to EBU. --Armatura (talk) 15:25, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

Indeed, Michael Jackson's controversies were mentioned on his own Wikipedia page. Looking at the Wikipedia:Relevance scale, this kind of info would be "once removed" on a biographical article (since it's a petition about Efendi). Putting it on (for example) the ESC 2021 page would be "twice removed" (since it's a petition about a participant in the contest). So in my opinion, if this should be mentioned anywhere, it's on Efendi's own article, where it's most relevant. However I am not very familiar with the BLP policy so this might not be allowed. You could also argue that Azerbaijan in the Eurovision Song Contest 2021 would be "once removed" because the petition is about the country's participation as well, so I wouldn't mind the info being on that article, but it would still be inconsistent with other similar articles. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 15:52, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for elaborating, Jochem van Hees, so in conclusion you would favour Efendi's own page (as you suggest now), or if it is against BLP then - Azerbaijan in Eurovision 2021 (as you suggested yesterday). I remember Grandmaster was keen on choosing AA relations in Eurovision article, perhaps he could identify the "second best option for us. KhndzorUtogh and BabbaQ, please state your preferences for the location of paragraph once more, ideally mentioning more than one option, to form a consensus. If BLP rules really restrict us (I am too, not sure about this), then Azerbaijan in Eurovision 2021 is the next best place, but I have no strong preference for any of the options and would go with any / majority --Armatura (talk) 16:33, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

This biographical article certainly has no place for such slanderous info, it would be a severe violation of WP:BLP, as discussed above. The story is not notable enough for inclusion in general article about Eurovision 2021 either. Regarding the article Azerbaijan in Eurovision 2021, I don't think that it is appropriate for that one, because this story had no impact on Azerbaijan's participation or performance at Eurovision 2021. I still think that the only place for this information is Armenia–Azerbaijan relations in the Eurovision Song Contest, as proposed by BabbaQ. The reason is that this was a very minor incident, with no official reaction from EBU or significant coverage in international media. But we have a dedicated article about Armenia-Azerbaijan relations at Eurovision, where we discuss stories like this. Or as Jochem van Hees initially suggested, we could make no mention of this story whatsoever, due to the lack of notability. Grandmaster 08:39, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

Ok, Armenia–Azerbaijan relations in the Eurovision Song Contest can have me as the third proponent then. If KhbdzorUtogh doesn’t mind posting it there. Thanks everyone! --Armatura (talk) 19:45, 9 June 2021 (UTC)