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Moved from Talk:Tom Blue

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Moved from Talk:Tom Blue

@CaroleHenson: I noted this on the Margaret Lea Houston article. Footnote 2, Margaret was an executor of his 1863 estate and specifically named each slave in the estate's inventory. Texas was still part of the Confederacy when Houston died. He could not have freed his slaves even if he wanted to: the Texas constitution in effect under the Confederacy, Section III, Article 2, prohibited manumission (a slave owner freeing his slaves). The sources are all there for you in Margaret's article. — Maile (talk) 00:25, 10 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hi,
I decided to not include the part about the constitutional amendment because it's tangental to Blue's biography. It is in Joshua Houston's article, too.
I am thinking that it might be good to add a link rather than copying the content.
See what you think here.
If you think that it should be stated out-right, though, I am ok with that.–CaroleHenson (talk) 00:46, 10 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Well, let's see how it goes. I'm guessing you will put this through DYK (maybe), in which case we could just see how that goes. Either direction, Houston couldn't have freed his slaves. Don't suppose you ever read the Texas constitution under the Confederacy. Texas was so bad-ass about slavery, that they even specified in the constitution that slave owners were not allowed to take their slaves into a Union/non-slavery state and free them there. — Maile (talk) 01:00, 10 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
DYK sounds like a good plan. Yep, that's a great way to get eyes on the article.
I have been working on Underground Railroad#South to Mexico. (That's were I learned about Blue.) It is still a work in progress but it would be great to get your input if you don't mind. I did not know about the law that slaveholders could not even go to another state and free their slaves. Badass is right! Wow!–CaroleHenson (talk) 01:29, 10 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'll have a look at that tomorrow. I assume you know that the Confederacy fired Houston as Governor of Texas, because he refused to swear an oath of allegiance to the Confederacy. He had worked so hard to get Texas admitted to the Union, and the Confederacy undid his hard work. — Maile (talk) 01:50, 10 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I am going to look up the info about that. Interesting and sad.–CaroleHenson (talk) 05:43, 10 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
" ... when he refused to take the oath of loyalty to the newly-formed Confederate States of America, the Texas convention removed him from office on March 16 and replaced him with Lieutenant Governor Edward Clark two days later. " Kreneck, Thomas H. "Houston, Sam". Handbook of Texas Online. Texas State Historical Asslciation. Retrieved 10 July 2021. — Maile (talk) 10:08, 10 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I've been reading your contributions on the Underground Railroad. Pretty good. Mexico tended to be wishy-washy on the issue, in the fact that they outlawed slavery, but allowed the colonizers to bring in slaves from the American south. Mexico's colonization contracts were the contradiction. The Old Three Hundred, for instance, were allowed to bring in 443 slaves.(Slavery in Texas, Prairie View A&M University; "TSHA | Mexican Colonization Laws". Texas Handbook Online. Texas State Historrical Association.) One wonders with all the US removing statues of Confederate heroes, what do they do with all the towns and counties named after slave holders? In Texas alone, there would have to be a massive renaming across the state. — Maile (talk) 14:37, 10 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Maile66, Great point about the names of towns. I hadn't thought that far ahead. It seems like taking down statues and renaming military bases might keep folks busy for awhile. It sure would be a lot of effort and map-changing to change the names of towns.
I am thinking about writing and article about Houston and slavery. I am actually surprised that there isn't one already, given the tactics that he and Juan Seguin engaged in. I think it would also provide insight to discuss the relationships with his enslaved people up to and through the Emancipation Proclamation.
Thanks for taking a look at Underground Railroad#South to Mexico. If you saw any holes in the article that would be helpful!–CaroleHenson (talk) 19:01, 10 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@CaroleHenson: re the potential article on Houston and slavery - yeah, it should be done. His last wife Margaret Lea Houston also had her own personal slaves that she inherited from her father in Alabama. Supposedly, he gave a Feb 1855 speech on the subject at Tremont Temple in Boston. I have not seen the speech. I edited a lot of Margaret Lea's article, and slavery to them was as natural as the air they breathed. Wonder how the various Native Americans he called friends felt about the issue. Native Americans also kept slaves, but I don't know if the Cherokees did. — Maile (talk) 20:10, 10 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Maile66, I started it at Sam Houston and slavery, both look like great additions! Thanks!
Right now I am just getting the most well-known points and intend to delve deeper into biographies of Houston. If you have any recommended sources, that would be great! Feel free to jump in if you like.–CaroleHenson (talk) 20:43, 10 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Here you go, from his own lips. Houston, Sam (February 22, 1855). Excepts from a Speech on Slavery, Tremont Temple, Boston. The writings of Sam Houston, 1813-1863: Hathi Trust. pp. 167–177. Retrieved 10 July 2021.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: location (link) — Maile (talk) 21:01, 10 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Great timing! I will work on this next. Thanks!–CaroleHenson (talk) 21:06, 10 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@CaroleHenson: Ta! Da! I knew that somewhere in the past, I had found Houston's entire speech in Boston, in its entirety - not just the excerpts. I hope you can read this, because it might be as close as we get as to what was going on In Houston's mind re the subject of slavery. Do you by any chance have a subscription to Newspaper.com via the Wikipedia Library? This is the entire speech: "Lecture on Slavery by the Honorable Sam Houston". The Liberator. 2 Mar 1855. p. 4.. Somebody also clipped it, but that's teeny - I can click on it and enlarge the clipping a lot - hope you can also. Clip of Houston speech on slavery. — Maile (talk) 01:01, 11 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
FYI, I think Houston loved to hear himself talk. At San Pedro Springs Park in San Antonio, history says he talked for a full 2HRS against secession. I can't imagine staying awake to listen to a 2-hour speech. — Maile (talk) 21:11, 10 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, cool, thanks!
Two hours - he must have really been stalwart about secession! He had so much to lose, but still gave it all he had. I wonder how many people were left after the first 15 minutes.–CaroleHenson (talk) 01:14, 11 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • @CaroleHenson: I wonder if it might be a good idea to move this entire conversation to Talk:Sam Houston and slavery. Also, maybe we could determine how Houston acquired his slaves. According to: Seale, William (1992) [1970]. Sam Houston's Wife: A Biography of Margaret Lea Houston. University of Oklahoma Press. p. 17. ISBN 978-0-8061-2436-0., when Margaret joined Houston in Texas, she was accompanied by her servants (Seale never says "slave"): "the young Negro woman Viannah, the Negro girls Eliza and Charlotte and the boy Jackson". Joshua figures later in the Seale narrative, after Margaret is already living in Texas. — Maile (talk) 14:03, 11 July 2021 (UTC) Eliza was so close to Margaret that the Houston children called her "Aunt Eliza", and at Eliza's request, is buried next to Margaret. — Maile (talk) 10:40, 11 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Maile66 Sounds good!  Done
That's helpful information - and sounds good for a next step!
Right now, I have started reading Sam Houston and Texan Independence here. It is so good to have your input about this! Love the bit about Aunt Eliza.–CaroleHenson (talk) 15:22, 11 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
If there is something that you would like to add, feel free! I think this is going to be an interesting article in the end. So many facets! And, I have no idea how it will end yet.–CaroleHenson (talk) 15:24, 11 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
All right, I'll add if I think of anything. But, mostly, I'm just adding small stuff. I really like the approach you are taking with this. It steps back from that larger-than-life cultural image of Houston and gets down to the basics with each individual involved. — Maile (talk) 01:59, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

FYI Houston family tree

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See below. Trying to figure out here who the grown Houston children are in the 1898 image. The only sons still alive in that year were Temple Lea Houston (1860–1905), William Rogers Houston (1858–1920) and Andrew Jackson Houston (1854–1941). Sam Houston Jr., MD (1843–1894) was already deceased. Living daughters were Nancy "Nannie" Elizabeth Morrow (1846–1920), Margaret Lea Houston Williams (1848–1906), Mary William Houston Morrow (1850–1931), and Antoinette Power Houston Billinghurst (1852–1932). It's anybody's guess who that grandchild is sitting in the chair, but the grandchildren are also listed on the template below. — Maile (talk) 01:14, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Cool family tree! I have no idea about the children, but I saw something that said that Nancy Lea was in the picture - I am guessing on the right side of the image. I just am having a hard time matching that up with how old Aunt Eliza looks in the photo. If you can sort out the children, that would be really cool!
Sorry for the state of the article yesterday. I was having a tough, very foggy day. But I will go through and copy edit catch anything that hasn't already jumped out at me - and made me go like this.–CaroleHenson (talk) 01:56, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I found the names here.–CaroleHenson (talk) 03:33, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Wow. Thanks. No wonder I couldn't tell by looking - it's one daughter and the grandchildren and a great granchild. — Maile (talk) 10:17, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I know! It made sense to me once I figured that out, too.–CaroleHenson (talk) 17:28, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]


Timeline glitch

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Slavery in Texas section. I believe you are actually referring to the actions of Stephen F. Austin. I don't believe Houston was in Texas before 1832, when he took up residency in Nacogdoches, Texas. It was Austin who spent his last few years going back and forth to the government of Mexico trying to get them to ease up on their slavery restrictions. Austin lobbied the government to allow slavery on a technicality - they would re categorize them as "indentured servants". As far as I remember, Houston's role in those years was mostly as a military recruiter and strategist. — Maile (talk) 18:49, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Also the source URL you linked is now a redirect to something about COVID. I'm removing the link. — Maile (talk) 19:08, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I know, that was weird! I noticed it was the wrong link and changed it to the link that I used.
I have been troubled by the 1829 timeframe for this, too. But, I read in several places that Andrew Jackson and Sam Houston began scheming at this time. It does not make sense that Houston would have enough cache' to have affected this proclamation.... Anyway, I am finding newspaper articles about this, but I will search in books and see what I find. I am thinking that I'll need to remove that section, but just double-checking.–CaroleHenson (talk) 19:14, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Maile66, Thanks for catching that! I removed that section after finding books that reference Austin's involvement during this time.–CaroleHenson (talk) 19:20, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
CaroleHenson The Haley book (pp 98-105) (chapter A Much Deeper Game Than Faro), says Houston arrived in Nacogdoches, Texas sometime 1832-1835. And he was around that general area during those years - San Felipe, etc. There's a blank in Houston's personal history then. Houston petitioned in Nacogdoches for divorce from his first wife Eliza Allen (which became final in 1837). p99 specifically says it was Stephen F. Austin who was dispatched to Mexico City in 1833 to get the laws change. (Austin was arrested by the Mexican government for treason in January 1834 and was released August 1835. Houston was not involved in this.) No clear records on what Houston was doing in 1834, but in 1835 he bowed to Mexican law that said only Catholics could own land in Mexico/Tejas. That year, Houston was baptized into the Catholic faith in 1835 in the Sterne–Hoya House in Nacogdoches. — Maile (talk) 20:16, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Maile66, Thanks for the research! It's so good to have your eyes on this article to ensure that I am not perpetuating legends or alternate versions of the Houston's lives! It's interesting that he was baptized into the Catholic faith in 1835... and then again around 1840 when he married Margaret. Perhaps his second wife was Catholic? I read somewhere that his second marriage was not dissolved before his marriage to Margaret, but I have just seen that in one place.–CaroleHenson (talk) 20:30, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Talahina “Tiana” Rogers Houston at Find a Grave Her remains are at Fort Gibson National Cemetery. — Maile (talk) 20:41, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, so not a shred of truth in that legend. Thanks!–CaroleHenson (talk) 21:20, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Recent edits

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Maile66 Just to clarify a couple of things:

  • In this edit, you added a couple sentences with Ryan as a source. I split them up and inserted the relevant quote between the sentences, but I seemed to make an error. I fixed the tags here.
Sure, that's fine. — Maile (talk) 03:14, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Not exactly sure what you mean. But I think I did change the Haley source because I was reading a different year/version at Internet Archive. The one I was looking at, because it was a different publication year, showed different page numbers. If that doesn't work for you, then change it back. — Maile (talk) 03:14, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
If I am understanding you correctly, your edits were more about correcting edition/page numbers and not changing the {{sfn}} short citation format. If so, gotcha.
There wasn't a long citation to correlate to the short citation, so I did a search and found this book, which I added to Sam Houston and slavery#Sources: Haley, James L. (1993). Texas: From Spindletop Through World War II. St. Martin's Press.
Is this the source you are referencing in <ref>Haley (1993), p. 328.</ref>?–CaroleHenson (talk) 03:30, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Just change it to what works for you. If I inadvertently changed a source you used, then feel free to change it back. I really don't care. My source is URL linked under Sources: Haley, James L. (2002). Sam Houston. Norman : University of Oklahoma Press. ISBN 978-0-8061-3405-5.. At least I think that's what you're talking about. Just do what works for you. — Maile (talk) 10:30, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I think we have a disconnect.
I am asking what is the source for Haley (1993) for the Sources section. Is it the one I added? That's the only book I could find from Haley in 1993: Haley, James L. (1993). Texas: From Spindletop Through World War II. St. Martin's Press.–CaroleHenson (talk) 14:36, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Looks like a typo on my part, but I have no idea how that happened. I copied from the Margaret Lea Houston article, but somehow picked up a different ref cite on that page. Did I correct what you had a question about? — Maile (talk) 16:51, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! It looks good to me.–CaroleHenson (talk) 20:36, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Emancipation

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I am still kind of confused about the 1862 emancipation of Houston's slaves.

If he had intended to emancipate them, but didn't get the paperwork done (not unusual from a number of other similar cases)... why weren't they officially emancipated when his estate was settled?

Related to that, how did the estate account settle the $10k for the enslaved people? Were they transferred to Margaret?–CaroleHenson (talk) 22:32, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I believe the whole issue is a myth created over the years by people who want to reinvent Houston. Quite possibly, by his own descendants. There are a lot of people in Texas who - real or imagined - claim to be Houston's descendants. Refer back to the Texas constitution under the Confederacy. Neither Houston nor Margaret could emancipate their slaves as long as the Confederacy existed. Houston died in 1863. Lee didn't surrender at Appomattox Court House until 1865. Also, details in Juneteenth#End of slavery in Texas. Apparently, this also had to be ruled on by the Texas Supreme Court in 1868 and 1874. Margaret was dead before those decisions went down. — Maile (talk) 22:51, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Re the $10K, I have no idea. Margaret was his legal heir, so she inherited his estate and its issues. Thomas Caruthers who helped Margaret settle the estate, was Houston's cousin and formerly served in the Texas House of Representatives. Margaret was many things, but she would have had to have had an attorney to help settle the estate, and that attorney was Carothers.— Maile (talk) 23:05, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! That makes sense - that he couldn't legally free them. So maybe it was just an informal arrangement with the Houston family from 1862 til Juneteenth 1865, unless it was just a legend as you opine. I am curious to know how their live changed after 1862, I am going to check the book about Joshua Houston to see if there's anything there.–CaroleHenson (talk) 23:37, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hiring out of his slaves

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CaroleHenson "When strapped for cash, Houston hired out some of his enslaved people for income". I think we need to clarify this, if possible. We might be writing about two different situations here. Author Haley says Houston let his slaves keep the money they earned from working for other people. But there's also this at Margaret Lea Houston#Raven Hill and Woodland, 5th paragraph:

"After his return home, Houston negotiated a labor-swap arrangement with Raven Hill's overseer Captain Frank Hatch. In lieu of a cash payment for Hatch's services, the bulk of Houston's slave labor force was engaged to work on Hatch's property at Bermuda Spring. The remaining slaves were retained as house labor for Margaret. (Seale 1992, p. 121). Eventually, Houston became the owner of Bermuda Spring when he and Hatch swapped properties, (Seale 1992, pp. 122–127.) — Maile (talk) 16:16, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Maile66 My understanding is that Houston hired out enslaved people when he was strapped for cash, and that they were allowed to keep a bit of the earnings for themselves. I thought I said that, but I will look for it.
Yep, the additional paragraph makes sense and is helpful. I will paraphrase it and add it. Thanks!–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:37, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Enslavement

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"Tom and Esau had both been enslaved by Houston before he married Margaret". CaroleHenson can you clarify the wording? How did Houston acquire these slaves? The wording makes it sound like Houston took two free black men and turned them into slaves. — Maile (talk) 18:59, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think part of the problem is that I consider enslavement to be an ongoing process, by whoever owns them and keeps them a slave. I'll try to reword it.
I wish I knew more about how Tom and Esau came to Sam Houston to fill it out a bit more.–CaroleHenson (talk) 19:10, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
My feeling is that they were not likely well-revered by the family as Joshua, Eliza, and Jeff were. There's very little about Esau and not a lot of interesting detail about Tom.–CaroleHenson (talk) 19:26, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Juneteenth, etc.

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Maile66 I have been debating whether to spend more time on post-Emancipation events. For instance, there was great celebration on/after Juneteenth, which ended up being broken-up after on a man on a horse killed a black woman.

There is also more information about what life was like after Emancipation - hard to get established with a home and employment, etc.

What do you think about including post-Emancipation information?–CaroleHenson (talk) 19:16, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

General comment - 19th Century correspondence formallities

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I clicked on the source: Roberts, Madge Thornall (1996). The Personal Correspondence of Sam Houston, Volume 1: 1839-1845. pp. 18–20, and noticed something I never had before. First of all, it looks like he called her "Maggy", something I've never seen before. Also, scrolling through this chapter, I am struck by the Shakespearean formality by which they sign their letters: "Thy husband, Sam Houston", "Thy child M. L. Houston", "I am truly thy Husband, Sam Houston", "Ever Thine Truly, Sam Houston". It's almost as if they were living out a Texas version of Shakespearean lovers. I can imagine Sam Houston as a lot of things, but a romantic hero in a Shakespeare play is a first. An interesting aspect to that family, as I don't recall before ever seeing this style in historical correspondence of that era. I was trying to imagine a US President with this style, "Thine Own President, Ever Thine, Andrew Jackson". — Maile (talk) 00:56, 15 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I know. I was surprised, too.
There's even a lot between the lines that comes through. Houston seemed very appreciative and supportive of her judgment.
Maybe you've got a book idea there!–CaroleHenson (talk) 02:30, 15 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It really comes across as if there was a lifelong old-fashioned courtship happening between these two people. I can easily see that with Margaret, given her cultured background before she ever met him. But I'm kind of flabbergasted that the hero of the Battle of San Jacinto - the same man who had a rotten track record with two previous wives - had this side to him. Amazing. — Maile (talk) 10:26, 15 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Absolutely! She sure brought out the best in him. And I think that his caring nature kicked in, too, because of her health issues. He got to travel far and wide - in congruence with his adventuresome spirit - and she created a home that he said he longed to get back to. Very nice!–CaroleHenson (talk) 17:03, 15 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Houston's last wishes on his slaves.

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CaroleHenson What is your source on, "In accordance with her husband's wishes, Margaret let most of the slaves go." ? According to James L. Haley's reading of his will, Houston was very specific that he wanted exactly the opposite. — Maile (talk) 14:38, 23 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Maile66, It came from the cited source - Prather pp. 73-74. It starts at the bottom of page 73 and continues onto page 44. The quote is "Margaret had honored her husband’s wish to free his slaves and only a few had elected to go to Independence with her."
I actually saw the will somewhere in a book or on ancestry.com. Let me double-check.–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:15, 23 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Well here is the exact will online Houston's Will - Travis Couinty Clerk's Office. — Maile (talk) 16:25, 23 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, thanks! It was great to read a transcript vs. handwriting.
I took Haley's comments to mean that Houston did not want their slaves sold to other people. And, Margaret's letting go of the slaves was their ultimate plan. In Haley's book he says Margaret let their slaves go over time. In other words, I don't think Haley and Prather were off on the intention (let them go when they can and don't have them sold to other slaveholders).
I'll edit the sentence from Prather.–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:32, 23 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
 Done here. Thanks for catching this!–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:42, 23 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Either Travis County Clerk's Office, or some version of Haley's book online, used to have the inventory list of each slave by name with a dollar value next to each one, with a transcription just like this one. I wish we had a clear copy of that now, because it would certainly be interesting to add to this article. — Maile (talk) 16:44, 23 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that would be nice!–CaroleHenson (talk) 20:31, 23 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Here it is

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CaroleHenson

[1] Use the site's "zoom" feature, and go to Page 2, heading is "Negro"

  • Joshua, age 35, $2,000
  • Eliza, age 32, $800
  • Pearl (?), age 25, $1,200
  • Nash, age 22, $1, 200
  • Molly (or Holly, age 17(?)) $800
  • Lizzie (?), age 25, $800
  • Solomon, age 1(or 11 or 7?), $400 (?)
  • Sotte, age 4, $400
  • Jeff, age 13, $700
  • Jack (?), age 23, $1,000
  • Seavis, age 55, $400
  • Mariah, age 50, $400

Total should come to $10,530. So far, I don't arrive at the exact total. Anyway, this is your source for the inventory of the slaves at the time of Houston's death. — Maile (talk) 23:43, 23 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "Inventory of Sam Houston's Estate". digital.library.shsu.edu. Retrieved 23 July 2021.
Very cool, Maile66! I have a couple of tweaks to
  • Joshua, age 35, $2,000
  • Eliza, age 32, $800
  • Pearl, age 25, $1,200
  • Nash, age 22, $1,200
  • Dolly, age 17, $800
  • Suzzie, age 25, $800 (I am pretty sure that this is Suzzie or Sezzie based upon the other capital "S"s - Sezzie is used for m and f and as a surname)
  • Solomon, age 6, $600 (This is my best guess based upon the flow of the pen, how 1k is otherwise written, and process of elimination for the collection of marks to make a six)
  • Sotte, age 4, $400
  • Jeff, age 13, $700
  • Jack, age 23, $1,000
  • Sewis, age 55, $400 (name for m or f, used globally)
  • Mariah, age 50, $400

Which adds up to $10,300. I am not sure how the $10,530 was derived since all the amounts are in even hundreds (with the zeroes tied together). The difference is $230, which could mean that Solomon was valued higher - but I don't see his amount being $830. All the other amounts seem very clear.–CaroleHenson (talk) 01:06, 24 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe we could list this in the article, without a total. We have this talk thread to explain ourselves on that. That inventory was, I think, in Margaret Lea Houston's handwriting. If not hers, then it was Houston's cousin Thomas Caruthers. Both worked on the will, but I think it was Margaret who compiled the slave list. Either way, it looks like somebody wasn't very good at math. But either way, we now have a source. — Maile (talk) 01:46, 24 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Absolutely! I added it to the article already - with a note of explanation. I changed Solomon's amount to $900. I spent more time on the pen strokes and it seems like 900 might be more likely... and is closer to the total.–CaroleHenson (talk) 02:54, 24 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It would probably be good to add a note that the ages are also more than likely incorrect. Going by the will, Joshua was born in 1828, but we know he was born in 1822. Jeff was born in 1840, but the will claims 1850. Eliza was born roughly around the same time as Margaret Lea (1819), but the will says 1831. 6Lana6 (talk) 09:27, 5 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I can confidently say that the names starting in S are not correct, based on the expertise of Jude Routh and the Mae Wynne McFarland Collection hosted at the Sam Houston State University Special Collections. You're mistaking capital L's for S's, and the names in question are Lizzie, Lotte, and Lewis. 6Lana6 (talk) 08:59, 5 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@CaroleHenson: FYI - possible corrections needed above. — Maile (talk) 11:29, 5 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I am confused. The article is right. Are you saying that you want the names corrected on the second list on this talk page?–CaroleHenson (talk) 15:58, 5 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'm fine with the talk page as is, as long as the article is correct.— Maile (talk) 18:31, 5 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

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GA toolbox
Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Sam Houston and slavery/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Reviewer: Kavyansh.Singh (talk · contribs) 04:26, 1 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator: CaroleHenson (talk · contribs) at 22:48, 10 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Will take a look soon! – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 04:26, 1 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

GA criteria

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GA review
(see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)
  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose, spelling, and grammar):
    b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (references):
    b (citations to reliable sources):
    c (OR):
    d (copyvio and plagiarism):
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects):
    b (focused):
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    Fair representation without bias:
  5. It is stable.
    No edit wars, etc.:
  6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
    a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales):
    b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

Overall:
Pass/Fail:

· · ·

Comments

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General

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 Done–CaroleHenson (talk) 17:31, 1 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Great points.  Done, with links in captions, which means one instance of Tom Blue and Margaret Lea Houston show as a duplicate in "Highlight duplicate links". Does that work for you?–CaroleHenson (talk) 17:31, 1 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • WP:GEOCOMMA needs to be implemented throughout the article. There are multiple instances where it is not. I'll try to list all in the detailed comments section, but I may miss some.
I will look for the places you mention this, then will circle back on this as a whole.–CaroleHenson (talk) 17:31, 1 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Detailed

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Lead
  • with the institution of slavery itself. — can remove 'itself'.
  • and Governor of Texas — My understanding of MOS:JOBTITLE is that this should be lower-cased. I may be wrong, let me know if you disagree.
  • a number of times → "various times"
  • and he would not swear an oath — odd wording; will "and he did not swear an oath" work?
  • He believed that — at the beginning of every new paragraph, you'll need to specify this last name.
  • the country (multiple instances) — could be replaces by "America" or "the United States"
  • As we link Western United States, we should also link Northern United States
  • his wife Margaret Lea Houston relied — add commas before and after Margaret Lea Houston. great to see Margaret Lea Houston as a FA
  • blacksmithing and other — commas after blacksmithing
 Done Good points. For "country", I changed one to United States, left one... and then when it meant rural kinds of areas, I changed "country" to "countryside". Does that work for you?–CaroleHenson (talk) 17:46, 1 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah. – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 05:49, 2 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Events related to his opinion of slavery
  • His father Samuel Davidson Houston — comma after "His father"
  • follow his yearning-adventuresome spirit (emphasis mine) — really, seems a bit extraneous, can we rephrase (just a suggestion)
  • See Sam Houston's life with the Cherokees — should be moved to the heading of this section. Shouldn't be in prose. Same with See Andrew Jackson and slavery.
I put them at the end of the paragraph, since it does not refer to all of the paragraphs, but just the ones at the bottom of this section. Does that work?–CaroleHenson (talk) 18:05, 1 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Not really. Can also move it to the "See also" section, but not in the prose. – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 18:56, 1 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Kavyansh.Singh - Sorry, I misspoke, I grouped the two see alsos at the end of the section, not paragraph. If you'd like them in the see also section instead, that works for me better than at the top of the section, where the relevancy isn't clear yet.–CaroleHenson (talk) 23:54, 1 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That maybe, is better. – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 05:49, 2 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
 Done–CaroleHenson (talk) 06:01, 2 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • he fought in the — specify Houston
  • President of the Republic of Texas (1836–1838) and (1841–1844) → "President of the Republic of Texas (1836–1838; 1841–1844)"
  • while he was — specify Houston
  • President of the Republic of Texas — MOS:JOBTITLE
  • One year later → "A year later"
  • he voted against — specify Houston
  • "The glory of my life ... worst of times." — the quote isn't long enough to justify a block-quote.
  • February 22, 1855 — comma after 1855
  • He stated that progress in the — specify Houston
  • en masse — can we write "altogether" instead?
  • Houston toured Texas in one last plea to stay with the Union: — this is immediately succeeded by a quote. Specify something like "he said:"
  • he spoke for two hours; He was the only Southern — specify Houston
  • February 8, 1861 and — comma after 1861
  • the Confederate States Army 2nd Texas Infantry Regiment — avoid linking two adjacent words
  • "My heart seems almost broken ..." — try not to start a sentence with a quote.
Moved "she wrote to her mother" to just before the quote. I am not sure the quote is needed, though. I liked it at the time, but I would be ok with removing it. See what you think.–CaroleHenson (talk)
Overall, I noticed that there are various quotes. You may remove the less-important ones. – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 18:56, 1 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I removed a number of quotes here.–CaroleHenson (talk) 00:14, 2 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Nice. – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 05:49, 2 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Completed this list, with two comments.–CaroleHenson (talk) 18:05, 1 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Houston's slaves
  • He (Houston) really — that (parenthesis) should be [square brackets]
  • There are a lot of short paragraphs, which can be merged.
  • Before he married Margaret — specify Sam
  • "worked a complete reformation" — the article doesn't specify where this quotation comes from.
  • Marion, Alabama — MOS:GEOCOMMA after Alabama
  • May 9, 1840 — comma after 1840
  • Independence, Texas — MOS:GEOCOMMA after Texas
  • Temple Lea — comma before and after this
  • January 28, 1834 — comma after 1834
  • a Senator — lowercase
  • Sam Houston Jr. v. Sam Houston, Jr. — consistency needed
  • At the Houston's household, slaves were assigned a plot of land to raise crops for themselves in November 1848 — move "November 1948" to the beginning of the sentence.
See what you think. I reworded a bit + changed "the Houston's" to "the Houstons' " - but could also remove "the" and switch the apostrophe back.–CaroleHenson (talk) 18:44, 1 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm fine with it. – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 05:49, 2 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • They slept under the stars — trivia?
  • $175 — suggesting to add Template:inflation
  • Houston’s — fix the quote mark (’ to ')
  • Prather states — 'states' to 'stated'
  • There is a legend that Houston — "According to a legend, Houston "
  • December 3, 1867 — comma after 1867
  • Little would have changed for those who left the household. They were not legally free and they were subject to laws that limited their rights and freedom. Houston's slaves were officially freed on Juneteenth in 1865. — The last sentence has already been told. Rest could be merged with the previous para.
I removed the first two sentences and left the last. Does that work?–CaroleHenson (talk) 18:44, 1 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Done, with two comments. A question: should we use the {{inflation}} template in other places, too? It seems like it would be overkill in all of the places, but perhaps for the "$10,530" valuation - since it's a larger number. I'll be back to complete the rest.–CaroleHenson (talk) 18:52, 1 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'll suggest its usage at large values. – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 18:56, 1 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
 Done in two more places.–CaroleHenson (talk) 00:23, 2 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Biographies of slaves owned by Sam and Margaret
  • Marion, Alabama — MOS:GEOCOMMA after Alabama
  • In the summer of 1848 — Per MOS:SEASONS, try to avoid mentioning seasons to refer to particular time of the year.
I have never seen this guideline. From MOS:SEASONS - it seems like the major point is that the seasons vary depend upon when you live north or south of the equator. This article is entirely about the United States, north of the equator, so I don't see the problem. I thought about "mid-year" as an option, but summer seems better to me. Of course, if you feel strongly about this, I will make the change.–CaroleHenson (talk) 00:40, 2 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm fine with it. I don't feel strongly about this, just wanted to know your viewpoint. – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 05:49, 2 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, cool.–CaroleHenson (talk) 06:01, 2 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • April 16, 1840 — comma after 1840
  • Fort Bend, Texas — MOS:GEOCOMMA after Texas
  • He appeared tired — lowercase 'H'
  • cracklin’ bread, — fix the quote mark (’ to ')
  • Jeff Hamilton was born a slave on v. Joshua Houston born into slavery in
I am not understanding the issue. Do you prefer one over the other approach? Do you think that they should be worded the same?–CaroleHenson (talk) 00:40, 2 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
What I am curious about is whether "born a slave" and "born into slavery" same? If so, I think we can be consistent. – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 05:49, 2 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, they mean the same thing. Okay, I will make them both the same.–CaroleHenson (talk) 06:01, 2 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • worked as hard as grown men, bright young man — seems extranous
Yep, I see. It's a tone issue.–CaroleHenson (talk) 00:40, 2 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • eleven miles — suggesting to use Template:convert
  • The servants sat in a balcony above the white congregation. — why is this important? trivia?
Yep, I guess it does teeter on trivia, but it's a reminder, without going overboard, about how daily life was different for black and white people. I am happy to remove the sentence if you think it's a problem.–CaroleHenson (talk) 00:40, 2 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Fine. – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 05:49, 2 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • July 4th — inconsistent date format
  • was a large man — ?
  • He states that — "he stated that"
  • five miles from — suggesting to use Template:convert
I made your suggested changes in all but 3 places in this section - see notes above.–CaroleHenson (talk) 00:40, 2 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Images

[edit]
  • Suggesting to add ALT text.
  • File:Samuel houston.jpg — "You must also include a United States public domain tag to indicate why this work is in the public domain in the United States"
  • Also, if this is going to any further review process, there might be some concerns with images off architectural pieces, as United States does not have freedom of panorama
I made these changes for the first and second bullet. Is this what you wanted?–CaroleHenson (talk) 00:57, 2 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Just noticed that the link you provided has alt text for each image. I will make those changes.–CaroleHenson (talk) 01:00, 2 January 2022 (UTC)  Done–CaroleHenson (talk) 01:07, 2 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I don't understand the third bullet. This concept is new to me and it seems unclear to me how one would know which architectural pieces (which I assumes means in this case anything that isn't a portrait of a person or people, or a work of art) have a copyright.–CaroleHenson (talk) 00:57, 2 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sources

[edit]
  • The following source is listed but never used:
    • Haley, James L. (2002). Sam Houston. Norman : University of Oklahoma Press. ISBN 978-0-8061-3405-5.
  • Retrieved March 26, 2016. v. Retrieved 2021-07-11. — inconsistent date format
  • Seale 1992, pp. 83–86.. — why '..' after 86?
  • Seale 1992, pp. 65. — should be 'p.'
  • Denton, Texas v. Denton, TX — inconsistent location format
  • Why is http://www.edwardsaquifer.net/spspring.html a reliable source?
 Done, including swapping in a better source for the San Pedro Park speech. Oops.–CaroleHenson (talk) 01:37, 2 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Overall

[edit]

Putting the review on hold. You might want to take a look at George Washington and slavery, a featured article. – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 09:42, 1 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Kavyansh.Singh for the detailed review. I will start on it after I get some sleep.–CaroleHenson (talk) 10:31, 1 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, sure. I am happy to review this article on January 1, the date when all the slaves were legally emancipated! – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 10:37, 1 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yay, Happy New Years and Happy Emancipation Day!–CaroleHenson (talk) 18:54, 1 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Kavyansh.Singh, I believe I have made all the updates - with some outstanding questions or places where you'd like me to do more.–CaroleHenson (talk) 01:37, 2 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I copy-edited a bit, feel free to revert anything you don't like. – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 06:22, 2 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The edits look great! Thanks so much.–CaroleHenson (talk) 06:43, 2 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, giving this one a second read, I think we are good to go for GA here. Promoting. If you want to go ahead with FA, I think it needs a bit of work for that (given the comprehensiveness of George Washington and slavery). I recommend a nice copy-edit by WP:GOCE/REQ and a peer review first, but, for now, great work! Thanks! Will take a look at Mr. Houston and native Americans in a day or two. – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 07:28, 2 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks so much, Kavyansh.Singh. I really appreciate how thorough that you were. Great job!–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:14, 2 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks to you for the article! Amazing how a few points can encourage a person to review articles! – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 16:22, 2 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

George Washington and slavery

[edit]

In the GA review, Kavyansh.Singh mentioned that it might be helpful to look at George Washington and slavery, which is a featured article, for insight.

The first thing that catches my attention is how well the prose is worded. It's organized a bit differently, and covers some areas not covered by the SH article (and vice versa), but there may be some opportunities there.

There is a background section. I am not sure if it's needed for this article, and it would likely have to be broad to cover Tennessee, Arkansas, Indian Territory, and Texas. It would be good to add History of slavery in Texas as a link somewhere.

Any other thoughts or ideas for bringing it up a level to FA status? (It would be my first.)–CaroleHenson (talk) 02:43, 2 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The only thing that I've been thinking might be helpful, is mentioning that the Cherokee nation also had slaves. As I read Texas history, I think slavery among most Native American tribes was not that unusual. Maybe some of the other native American tribes he dealt with also practiced slavery, I don't know. Before it got outlawed by a newer constitution, slavery also was practiced in Mexico. I guess I'm saying that Houston's outlook on slavery might have been from what he saw also among non-whites. This may all be not what you were looking for, but FYI Thomas Jefferson's original wording of the Declaration of Independence blamed the institution of slavery on King George: Slavery and the Declaration. — Maile (talk) 03:37, 2 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Good points - and interesting tidbit (Jefferson / King George)! I know that slavery was not unusual in Spanish New Mexico as a business and it was common among some of the western tribes, like when they captured other Native Americans as spoils of war. It makes a lot of sense to explore slavery among the Cherokee.–CaroleHenson (talk) 04:14, 2 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! I just skimmed the article, but will look closer soon.–CaroleHenson (talk) 22:27, 2 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Featured article status

[edit]

I have written and reviewed dozens of Good articles, but I feel a bit over my head going to Featured article status. From what I can tell from Wikipedia:Compare criteria Good v. Featured article

A featured article exemplifies our very best work and has the following attributes
  • High and reliable quality
(a) engaging prose of a professional standard;  ToDo see George Washington and slavery
(b) comprehensive coverage of major facts, details, and context;  ToDo - including Cherokee and slavery, background, see George Washington and slavery
(c) factual accuracy, with citations for verification against high-quality reliable sources;  ToDo - double-check sources to ensure high-quality, double-check that citations point to the correct source and page
(d) neutral presentation of viewpoints; and
(e) stable content.
  • Style compliance: it follows the entire Manual of Style and has—
(a) a concise, summarizing lead;
(b) a substantial but not overwhelming table of contents; and
(c) consistently formatted inline citations.
  • Media. It has images in accordance with image use policies; in particular, they have acceptable copyright status and fair use rationales where necessary.  ToDo double-check commons info
  • Length. It stays focused on the main topic without going into unnecessary detail.
  • Similarities
  • Both criteria require: compliance with the general policies regarding content for all Wikipedia articles; avoidance of unnecessary detail; stability; neutrality; factual accuracy and verifiability; and acceptable copyright status for media.
  • Neither has absolute length requirements, although featured articles tend to be long; one of the original purposes of the GA process was to recognize short articles of good quality.  Comment: - the article would become longer by making it more comprehensive.
  • Differences
  • Featured articles must be our very best work; good articles meet a more basic set of core editorial standards and are decent.
  • A good article must be well written; a featured article must have an engaging, professional standard of writing.  ToDo
  • A good article must comply with only five style guidelines; featured articles must comply with all style standards.  ToDo
  • A featured article must have consistently formatted inline citations; a good article must only have enough information about the source that the reviewer figure out which source is being cited, and formatting is optional.
  • A good article must be broad; a featured article must be comprehensive. The "broad" standard merely requires coverage of the main points; the "comprehensive" standard requires that no major fact or detail is omitted.  ToDo
  • A good article must be verifiable against reliable sources; a featured article must cite high-quality sources. The inline citation requirements are stricter with featured articles.
  • Good articles are generally not required to be as well-illustrated by media.

Then:

Peer review  ToDo
Guild of Copy Editors  ToDo

I took a stab at identifying the to-do list, followed by a peer review and Copy Editor Guild polishing of the article, as recommended in the GA Review notes.

Does this seem right? Feel free to update any of the info above. Is anyone interested in working on this?

I have real-life stuff going on and Wikipedia is a nice distraction, but at the moment I probably won't move ahead if no one else is interested in working on this.–CaroleHenson (talk) 03:47, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Don't be intimidated by FAC. I'm willing to help out at FAC, but you are ultimately the the one who instinctively knows the source of any given fact that might be in question. Quite frankly, Kavyansh.Singh was so thorough on the GA review, that they probably helped you clear out a lot of things that might otherwise have arisen at FAC. Normally, the Guild of Copyeditors leaves a banner on the talk page about when they did the work, and which editor did it. See Talk:Henry Hoʻolulu Pitman as an example. Also, it would be helpful if you had a link somewhere to the Peer Review. I haven't submitted at FAC in a long time, but be prepared for an image review re sourcing. The image review is not bad and often done by Nikkimaria. Just be sure of the licensing and source on what you used. Passing an image review (Nikkimaria's page) — Maile (talk) 12:31, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am willing to help with reviewing the article in its peer review and further processes. I am happy to hear that I was through, given that I am doing a lot of reviews these days. From my sparse personal experience, I can say that reviewers tend to be as nitpicky as they can at FAC (of-course, they are selection Wikipedia's best work). Featured articles are not just broad, but completely comprehensive in all sense, that is, WP:HQRS like this, this, this, this, this, and others should be included. Also, a copy-edit by GOCE really helps. – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 13:20, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Excellent, I appreciate that! I added peer review and GOCE up above below the list of things to do after making the article more comprehensive and other to-dos... and added double-checking images at commons. I am sure that all content that I added is covered by a cited source - but I will double-check that the citations are to the correct source and page. I added that as a "to do" above.–CaroleHenson (talk) 18:07, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Beginning... Maile66 I have a bit of time today to work on this. I think I will start with low-hanging fruit: double-checking the sources and image details on commons - while also checking out the link you provided to Nikkimaria's Passing an image review (didn't want to ping her again unnecessarily).

I want to keep the article as clean as I can following the GA review, so I thought I would next check out the verbiage in the George Washington and slavery article. There are some similar bits of information being conveyed with amazingly better wording. I don't necessarily want to copy it - but I'd like to be inspired. Then, work on expanding the article, while cognizant of the GA review requested changes at the same time.

Any thoughts about this approach? Is there anything here that you'd like to do?–CaroleHenson (talk) 14:31, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@CaroleHenson: seems like a good plan to me. Nikkimaria's Passing an image review subpage was created AFTER I ventured my last FAC. Prior to this, I (and probably others) were somewhat feeling our ways through the dark on adding images. Her subpage may/may not have every detail down, but it puts you way ahead on that criteria requirement. I think I'll have a closer look at the GW&Slavery article also. — Maile (talk) 14:46, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Maile66. Great, thanks! Yes, Nikkimaria's page makes it really clear what needs to be looked at! Thanks for that.–CaroleHenson (talk) 14:55, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

[edit]

Put these items together from Nikkimaria's Passing an image review.

Article

  • Beneficial and interesting images? checkY
  • Relevant, appropriate, quality images? checkY
  • Not too little, not too many. checkY
  • Formatted correctly? Sized right? checkY
  • Alt-text checkY
  • Clear, succinct captions? Need citations? Watch punctuation checkY

Description pages

  • Double-check “own work” for watermarks, etc. checkY
  • Citation for images that are not photos. checkY
  • Correct licensing? checkY, question about the Aunt Eliza photo, discussed below with NikkiMaria.
  • See Reviewing free images for ensuring that sufficient information is provided for the images. checkY

Free but not own work

  • Country of origin checkY, except question about the Aunt Eliza photo, discussed below with NikkiMaria.
  • Correct license for age, etc. checkY, question about the Aunt Eliza photo, discussed below with NikkiMaria.
  • Sources checkY

Non-free - check out non-free requirements Not applicable

Other considerations - check out these items

Common problems - check out these items, particularly created vs. published date. Sending a question to Nikki re: switching copyright licenses to age of author if published date is not clear.

–CaroleHenson (talk) 14:52, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Updated with checkYs for completed items.–CaroleHenson (talk) 17:26, 9 January 2022 (UTC) Another update.–CaroleHenson (talk) 20:02, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Nikkimaria A few of us are working on bringing Sam Houston and slavery from GA to FA status. Your page regarding the image review for FA articles is really helpful! If you could help me out with two questions, I would really appreciate it so that I can make sure that I'm tackling the image prep/self-review correctly:
  • There are a few places in the article where somewhat generic images are used, but I will be ensuring that there are captions that tie the image to the article, like the cabin at Sam Houston and slavery#Early life. Is that okay for a FA article?
  • It is seeming that if an image does not have a discernible publish date or not released by a photographer's "own work", one should find out the age of the author for possible use of an author's date of death makes the image viable and a free image... and if neither of those can be determined, we should not use the image. Is that right?
Thanks so much!–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:40, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The answer to point 1 is yes, as long as there's a clearly articulated tie-in that shouldn't be a problem. Point 2 is a bit more complicated - you'd also need to consider things like where the image is from, potentially when it was created depending on the case, etc. If you have a specific image in mind I can take a look? Nikkimaria (talk) 16:54, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Not yet, Nikkimaria, I was just trying to be clear what to look out for and what to do. When / if I come across one that I cannot figure out, I will provide the info here. Thanks so much for your quick reply.–CaroleHenson (talk) 17:04, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
And ping you at that time.–CaroleHenson (talk) 17:05, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Nikkimaria, I wonder about this image of Aunt Eliza. The photograph was taken in 1898, and it seems likely that it was published before 1927, but how do we know?–CaroleHenson (talk) 23:35, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There's a few things to check. First off, reverse image search - nothing much coming up there. Second, does this image appear in any of the references used to build the article? Third, does the museum have any more info on provenance? (It's not all that unusual for museums to hold images that were never published prior to digitization). Nikkimaria (talk) 00:19, 10 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Nikkimaria, Thanks so much for your input. 1) I didn't find anything either in a reverse image search. 2) I found the image at [1], and this instance says that the image is possessed by the author of "Star of Destiny: The Private Life of Sam and Margaret Houston" by Madge Thornall Roberts, this source, p. 21 says that the image was taken 1870s or 1880s and is in the collection of the Sam Houston Museum. It is also said, though, that the image was taken in 1898, the year that she died. 3) I am not finding anything at the museum. I am at a loss about when this image may have been published. It seems, though, that it may be in the public domain because of the age of the image. If it was taken in 1898, by a 20 year old, the photographer was born 143 years ago, but we have no idea who the photographer was and when they died. One option might be to use {{External media}} and link to the image, rather than using it as an image in the article. What do you think?–CaroleHenson (talk) 20:13, 12 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Did the image actually appear in Star of Destiny? If yes, I would go with the external media option. If no, possibly {{PD-US-unpublished}} would apply. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:13, 12 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, the image appeared in Star of Destiny, so I added in the {{External media}} template for the photograph and removed the image itself. Thanks for your help!–CaroleHenson (talk) 23:59, 12 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

 Done, per review and resolution of "Aunt Eliza" photo approach.–CaroleHenson (talk) 00:08, 13 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Expansion: Cherokee and slavery

[edit]

Sources: Gregory, Sam Houston with the Cherokees 1829–1833

–CaroleHenson (talk) 15:44, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Expansion: Union / Slave states and territories

[edit]

Expansion: Background section

[edit]

I have started a draft at Sam Houston and slavery/background. Still have a lot to add - about the Houston family and slavery and Virginia and Tennessee for context.–CaroleHenson (talk) 06:44, 13 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Updating link, as a non-admin user moved it to "Draft" space without any discussion. Live and learn, I guess, next time don't use "draft" in the title. I've moved it back to "Sam Houston and slavery/background" Anyway, let me know if you need my assistance. — Maile (talk) 11:23, 13 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Sigh. Same user moved it again to Talk:Sam Houston and slavery/background. Wherever it is, good luck. — Maile (talk) 13:08, 13 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
CaroleHenson FYI - Wikipedia:Subpages. — Maile (talk) 13:12, 13 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Maile66 I was thinking that I shouldn't use my sandbox for something that I hoped others might contribute to - and it doesn't make sense to go through the regular draft process, so that's why I landed where I did.
I am totally fine with moving the page to another place if a subpage of the talk page isn't the best solution.–CaroleHenson (talk) 15:37, 13 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
CaroleHenson I don't think I've ever needed to know before that we aren't supposed to make subpages of Main Space. It would have been helpful if the moving editor had left a link here to Wikipedia:Subpages.
My concern about their moving it directly to "Draft" space, is that Drafts are subjected to Category:Candidates for speedy deletion, and can be nominated by anybody, which delays it unnecessarily. I've worked CSD for years - sometimes the nomination is valid, and sometimes the nomination is the result of," .... hmmm ... I wonder what this does .... Click!" by passing editors. — Maile (talk) 16:54, 13 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Maile66, It sounds like we're good, then, right now. I agree with the concern about it being in Draft space.–CaroleHenson (talk) 17:16, 13 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thoughts and sources for you

[edit]
The Cherokee

Regarding where Houston lived with the Chief John Jolly and the Cherokee. This source puts it at Hiwassee Island. — Maile (talk) 03:39, 4 January 2022 (UTC) "History on Hiwasse Island" (PDF). The Center for Historic Preservation, Middle Tennessee State University. Retrieved 2021-07-26.[reply]

Yep, Maile66, I wrote the article about Hiwassee Island, apparently when writing Sam Houston and Native American relations (i.e., after this article). I put a mention in this article of the island and Jolly - and a {{further}} template where his early life with the Cherokee is expressed in more detail.–CaroleHenson (talk) 04:21, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Maryville Academy - 3rd paragraph "Early life

I was curious about this school, since there have probably been a lot of schools by that name in the US. See College, Maryville (1911). "Catalog Issue of the Maryville College Bulletin". The college. p. 56. The source lists Sam Houston as an alumni. I think this might be the Wikipedia page Maryville College. — Maile (talk) 03:13, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Maile66, It's a little bit confusing to me. As mentioned in the Sam Houston and Native American relations#Early life section, Houston attended Porter Academy in 1813 (per this source - gathered from Sam Houston Historic Schoolhouse Guild. That academy was operated by Rev. Isaac Anderson at that time. From this article, it appears the academy run by Anderson continued to be called Porter Academy. There are these books that state he attended Porter Academy. I am not quite understanding why Maryville College claims him as an alumnist. Porter Academy did not become Maryville College, from what I can tell... and it was founded by Anderson in 1819, the year that Houston was elected district attorney in Nashville.
I changed Maryville Academy to Porter Academy after this research.
After this gets a bit more sorted out, would it be best to put his school info in the main article for Sam Houston? Just wondering.–CaroleHenson (talk) 05:25, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I will check these out.–CaroleHenson (talk) 04:06, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. I updated the Sam Houston article with more information of his early years + his attendance at Porter Academy where he was taught by Rev. Isaac Anderson.–CaroleHenson (talk) 23:47, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

List of slave names

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From the section above, these are the slaves (we think) who were on the inventory of his estate:

  • Joshua Houston, age 35, $2,000
  • Eliza, age 32, $800
  • Pearl, age 25, $1,200
  • Nash, age 22, $1,200
  • Dolly, age 17, $800
  • Suzzie, age 25, $800 (I am pretty sure that this is Suzzie or Sezzie based upon the other capital "S"s - Sezzie is used for m and f and as a surname)
  • Solomon, age 6, $600 (This is my best guess based upon the flow of the pen, how 1k is otherwise written, and process of elimination for the collection of marks to make a six)
  • Sotte, age 4, $400
  • Jeff, age 13, $700
  • Jack, age 23, $1,000
  • Sewis, age 55, $400 (name for m or f, used globally)
  • Mariah, age 50, $400

These are the slaves listed under the article's bios of the slaves:

  • Albert
  • Bingley - Either Margaret Lea's slave, or her mother's.Page 9, From Slave to Statesman maybe would not have been in Sam Houston's estate inventory. (per Prather book)
  • Charlotte - sold before Houston died
  • Eliza Revel (same as above)
  • Jeff Hamilton (probably same as above)
  • Joshua Houston (same as above)
  • Mary - died
  • Prince
  • Tom Blue (same as above)

Can we (or should we) reconcile the differences between the two lists above. — Maile (talk) 00:39, 10 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think you are right - but I am not sure at the moment how to do that. There are two different lists because they occur over time. Some of the bios cover the 1840s - while the estate list is from the 1860s. And, I only wrote bios where there was enough information to be of interest.
I am beat right now. I do not have an idea for next steps at present.–CaroleHenson (talk) 03:47, 10 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
OK. We'll deal with it later. We only have to figure what happened to Albert, Bingley and Prince. — Maile (talk) 04:19, 10 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I've come up empty on searches for the origins of Albert and Prince. Suggest wording such as, "Three of Houston's slaves were not listed among the other slaves on the inventory of his estate when he died. Bingley was Nancy's slave inherited from her deceased husband, but worked with the other Houston slaves after Margaret and Sam married. It is not known what happened to Albert and Prince." — Maile (talk) 12:15, 10 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The wording looks great. I am poking around a little bit more, tweaking my search criteria, in the meantime.–CaroleHenson (talk) 18:31, 10 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Another source

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Library resources about
Sam Houston and slavery
By Sam Houston and slavery

External link at the bottom Bibliography of Sam Houston. I'd forgotten about that Library resources box. It's linked to Houston's VIAF, but seems to take on the title of the page it's actually on.

However, you might be interested in his entire February 8, 1850 Speech to to the US Senate regarding slavery expansion, it's at

Do you think this would be something to list under External Links of this article?

— Maile (talk) 14:39, 16 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks pretty cool! I have not seen that before. Looks helpful to me.–CaroleHenson (talk) 23:12, 16 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Quick check-in

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‎Maile66, At the moment I am a bit overwhelmed at the thought of expanding the article to a broad understanding of the topic. That's the GA vs. FA piece that is overwhelming at the moment. I am also dealing with a major family issue right now, that I expect to go on for some time, and like to use what free time I have to contribute in ways that are easy, interesting, and relaxing. It may be awhile until I do anything more than putter around making changes/additions to bring the article to FA class - likely just working on the background section draft for awhile.–CaroleHenson (talk) 09:45, 17 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If someone would like to help expand this article for FA, please let me know. Otherwise, I will take a pass right now.–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:05, 21 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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