Talk:Saborsko massacre

Saborsko massacre has been listed as one of the Warfare good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Review: March 8, 2014. (Reviewed version).

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Saborsko massacre article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1

Croatia Low‑importance

	Croatia portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Croatia, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Croatia on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.CroatiaWikipedia:WikiProject CroatiaTemplate:WikiProject CroatiaCroatia articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Yugoslavia Low‑importance

	Saborsko massacre is within the scope of WikiProject Yugoslavia, a collaborative effort to improve the Wikipedia coverage of articles related to Yugoslavia and its nations. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.YugoslaviaWikipedia:WikiProject YugoslaviaTemplate:WikiProject YugoslaviaYugoslavia articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Death Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Death, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Death on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DeathWikipedia:WikiProject DeathTemplate:WikiProject DeathDeath articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Military history: Balkan / European / Post-Cold War

This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles

Associated task forces:
/
	Balkan military history task force (c. 500–present)
	European military history task force
	Post-Cold War task force

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Saborsko massacre/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: 23 editor (talk · contribs) 20:53, 7 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I'll take this review. 23 editor (talk) 20:53, 7 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

Is it reasonably well written?
A. Prose quality:

Lead:

...The Saborsko massacre (Croatian: Pokolj u Saborskom)... - You should add the Serbian translation too.

...The fighting took place as a part of an offensive conducted jointly by the JNA and Croatian Serb forces to capture Croatian-held pocket... – This should read "...a Croatian-held pocket..."

...Babić and Martić were convicted by the ICTY in 2000s for their role in the events... – Try "Following the war, the ICTY convicted Babić and Martić for their role in the events..."

Amended as suggested, except for a Serbian translation. I have no clue how is the event referred to in Serbia. All I could find were generic terms such as conquest/fall/liberation of Saborsko. The only exception was "Operacija Saborsko" found on p.499 of Rupić reference (quoting an RSK document). Would you consider such a source and the single reference acceptable for the purpose?--Tomobe03 (talk) 21:57, 7 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Sure. 23 editor (talk) 22:01, 7 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Added--Tomobe03 (talk) 22:05, 7 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Background:

...In 1990, following the electoral defeat of the government of the Socialist Republic of Croatia, ethnic tensions worsened... Ethnic tensions between whom?

Specified - Croats and Serbs.--Tomobe03 (talk) 22:03, 7 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Prelude:

...The Croatian Police had stationed Saborsko Independent Company consisting of approximately 30 personnel in the village one day after the Plitvice Lakes incident, on 1 April 1991. – This could read "The Saborsko Independent Company, consisting of approximately 30 personnel, was stationed in the village by the Croatian Police the day after the Plitvice Lakes incident on 1 April 1991."

...That month the JNA distributed 1000 small arms to ethnic Serbs living in Gorski kotar region, including Plaški. – Try "1,000".

...In June–August, Saborsko was targeted by artillery and mortar fire, and the bulk of its civilian population fled by early August. – Who was it targeted by?

...In early October, the JNA and the SAO Krajina TO launched a joint offensive, aimed at capture of peripheral areas of Slunj pocket." – This should read: "In early October, the JNA and the SAO Krajina TO launched a joint offensive which was aimed at capturing the peripheral areas of the Slunj pocket."

Nearly entire Croat civilian population fled, and at least seven civilians... – This should read "Most of the Croat civilians fled, and at least seven..."

Further three Croat civilians were killed in the nearby village of Vukovići. – Write this as "Three more Croat civilians were killed in the nearby village of Vukovići."

Croatian police and the ZNG, including the forces based in Saborsko, launched a failed attempt to capture a JNA base in Lička Jasenica on 4–8 November, causing death of Serb civilians in the attack. – Try: "The Croatian police and the ZNG, including the forces based in Saborsko, launched a failed attempt to capture a JNA base in Lička Jasenica on 4–8 November. The attack resulted in the deaths of Serb civilians."

Amended as suggested. Sources do not specify whose artillery/mortars were those. The source says: "In the early morning of 5 August 1991, Saborsko was shelled by mortars from the direction of the Lička Jasenica JNA barracks." which would imply those were JNA guns/mortars, but given cooperation between the JNA and the military of SAO Krajina, it is hard to tell for sure. ~~Would it be of any help to specify that the artillery/mortars were positioned in or near the Lička Jasenica JNA barracks?~~--Tomobe03 (talk) 22:16, 7 March 2014 (UTC) Given the ambiguity and what the source implies, I reworded it once more to reflect accurately what the source actually says and let the reader draw their conclusion if any.--Tomobe03 (talk) 22:33, 7 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Timeline:

The JNA and the SAO Krajina TO intensified their offensive aimed capturing of Saborsko and the Slunj pocket in early November. – This should read: "In early November, the JNA and the SAO Krajina TO intensified their offensive aimed at capturing Saborsko and the Slunj pocket."

The JNA force assigned to the offensive was organised as the Tactical Group 2 (TG-2), under command of Colonel Čedomir Bulat. – Try: "The JNA force assigned to the offensive was organised as the Tactical Group 2 (TG-2), under the command of Colonel Čedomir Bulat."

The attacking force, supported by the Yugoslav Air Force... – Delink Yugoslav Air Force. It was linked in the previous section.

According to SAO Krajina sources, the air strikes commenced at 9 a.m. and took fifteen minutes, followed by 30 minutes of artillery bombardment before ground forces were ordered to attack. – This should read: "According to SAO Krajina sources, the air strikes commenced at 9 a.m. and lasted for fifteen minutes. They were followed by a 30-minute artillery bombardment before ground forces were ordered to attack."

Defences of Saborsko were first breached at noon, and the attacking force reached the centre of Saborsko at 3:30 p.m. – "The defences of Saborsko were first breached at noon, and the attacking force reached the centre of the village at 3:30 p.m."

At least 25 civilians were murdered by the troops in the immediate aftermath of capture of Saborsko. – Try: "At least 25 civilians were murdered by the troops in the immediate aftermath of the capture of Saborsko."

Amended as suggested.--Tomobe03 (talk) 22:20, 7 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Aftermath:

Destruction of the vilage of Saborsko continued and both churches in the village were demolished by mid December. – This should read: "The destruction of Saborsko continued and both churches in the village were demolished by mid-December."

In two months following recapture of the area by Croatia in Operation Storm in 1995, bodies of 27 victims were recovered... – This should read: "In the two months following the recapture of the area by Croatia in Operation Storm in 1995, the bodies of 27 victims were recovered..."

...the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY) has specified that 29 Croat civilians were killed in Saborsko on 12 November 1991. – Try: "...the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY) specified that 29 Croat civilians were killed in Saborsko on 12 November 1991."

Amended as suggested.--Tomobe03 (talk) 22:24, 7 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

B. MoS compliance for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and lists:

A. Has an appropriate reference section:

B. Citation to reliable sources where necessary:

C. No original research:
Is it broad in its coverage?
A. Major aspects:

B. Focused:
Is it neutral?
Fair representation without bias:
Is it stable?
No edit wars, etc:
Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content:

B. Images are provided if possible and are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:
Overall: Interesting article. The points I brought up over the prose should be addressed before this can be promoted. Cheers, 23 editor (talk) 21:44, 7 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Pass or Fail:

Thank you very much for taking up this review. I have tried to address the issues you brought up above.--Tomobe03 (talk) 22:36, 7 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Just one more thing. Croatian Police is linked both in "Background" and "Prelude"; I suggest you delink it from the latter section. Also, in some parts of the article Croatian Police is rendered as Croatian police (with a small "p") and in other parts it has a capital "P" for "Police". Can you decide on one form or the other for consistency? Thanks. 23 editor (talk) 00:31, 8 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Done.--Tomobe03 (talk) 11:27, 8 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent. Passed as GA. 23 editor (talk) 15:31, 8 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"Milošević publicly threatened to replace the JNA with a Serbian army"

Who else but Mr Attila Hoare. Since this "reliable" author claims that this happened "publicly", this is not a statement calling for a secondary source, it requires the primary publication - rather like an MFA statement of a country recognising a breakaway state. If such cannot be found then even a "reliable" author carries no more substance than an anonymous forum posting. If it had been true that the Serbian President had made such a statement, how could this have squared with ally Montenegro whose support Milošević had secured since 1988 before becoming President of Serbia. The anti-bureaucratic revolution in Montenegro took place on a Montenegrin platform and not one which sought to abolish the republic so that it became part of Serbia. --OJ (TALK) 07:18, 31 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]