A request has been made for this article to be peer reviewed to receive a broader perspective on how it may be improved. Please make any edits you see fit to improve the quality of this article.
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the River article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Geography, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of geography on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.GeographyWikipedia:WikiProject GeographyTemplate:WikiProject Geographygeography articles
Talk:River is part of WikiProject Geology, an attempt at creating a standardized, informative, comprehensive and easy-to-use geology resource. If you would like to participate, you can choose to edit this article, or visit the project page for more information.GeologyWikipedia:WikiProject GeologyTemplate:WikiProject GeologyGeology articles
This article is part of the WikiProject Limnology and Oceanography to improve Wikipedia's coverage of the inland waters and marine environments. The aim is to write neutral and well-referenced articles on limnology- or oceanography-related topics, as well as to ensure that limnology and oceanography articles are properly categorized. Read Wikipedia:Contributing FAQ and leave any messages at the project talk page.Limnology and OceanographyWikipedia:WikiProject Limnology and OceanographyTemplate:WikiProject Limnology and OceanographyLimnology and Oceanography articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Rivers, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Rivers on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.RiversWikipedia:WikiProject RiversTemplate:WikiProject RiversRiver articles
A fact from River appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 4 September 2024 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
Did you know... that rivers form up to 23% of international borders?
It describes "all rivers flow N-S" as a 'common misconception'. In my half century on this planet, nearly half of which are in education, I have encountered a lot of misconceptions but never heard of this. What is the definition of 'common' being employed here. The sources listed a few blogs; hardly encyclopaedic.  2001:8003:F231:2501:E41C:D857:B016:7B0F (talk) 11:32, 12 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I guess for context I was asked to find consensus for [1] this version of the article. I am def happy to collab and take criticism on the article… I didn’t realize it would be a controversial since the live version has a lot of unsourced content and is a little barebones. ForksForks (talk) 12:44, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There has been a deal of debate about the content of this article in the past. We did, at one stage have a reasonable version where the images reflected the text and demonstrated the progression of a river from headwaters through tumuluous stream right down to the vast deltas. Over the years that has been lost somewaht and the article has collected a fair degree of unsourced contant. I would be happy to work with any editors to improve it but a major re-structuring without discussion was not appropriate. In general it is easier to first get general agreement to the shape and then implement that one sentence or section at a time to allow for debate. A massive change is impossible to work with, and few editors have the time to work though such a change to check that all the important points have been included, taht the sources are good and support the article statements, and that it follows a logical encyclopaedic structure. Regards VelellaVelella Talk 13:44, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I had looked at the talk page archive, but it seemed like the link you're referring to did not attract a lot of work or discussion. I would understand going sentence by sentence if this was a controversial article with a lot of active maintainers, but that is not really what I see. It's an article that has been allowed to gain tons of cruft and unsourced sections over time without anyone bothering to revert it.
An article like this (in my opinion) does require research and also a lot of writing, which is what I've done, and I have been careful to cite everything and read a lot and put a careful, balanced article together. If I were to submit it all individually here for approval I would be very surprised if I could get the same work done, and if anyone would actually show up to debate. My understanding with wp is that we should be bold with such changes so we don't get bogged down like this.
If you have a specific critique of the new version, I get it, but this sounds more like you don't fell comfortable reviewing the whole thing, which is understandable. My plan has been to take this to GAN as well as show it to other editors (see my recent work on Island) to get some experienced eyes on the topic, and I think I was successful with this approach before. ForksForks (talk) 14:11, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Be bold, sure, but please see WP:BRD which deals with just such a sitiation as this. Regards VelellaVelella Talk
Nothing here seems to me to justify halting work on this article. Whole sections, and many paragraphs, are completely uncited, so any editor should feel free either to attempt to cite the existing text (always a risky manoeuvre) or to find suitable sources and to modify the text according to the sources, surely an uncontroversial action. I'd suggest that editing should proceed a paragraph or small section at a time, with the edit comments stating "added source Bloggs 1986", "rewritten using Smith 2021" and the like. That should be hard to disagree with.
Then if there are any specific difficult decisions to be taken, such as replacing favourite images, they can be discussed here, or the tried-and-trusted BRD process can be attempted on those, one at a time. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:41, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree that editing should proceed a paragraph or small section at a time. Large bold edits make it easier to see what changes have been made, instead of several iterative edits. People can then make changes to the new text without reverting the whole thing. Copying an entire article into your sandbox, working on it for a few months, and then changing the whole thing in one go is perfectly valid. If people have issues with small parts of a large edit, they can change it and discuss on talk page. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 15:55, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I tend to agree with you, but in the interest of negotiation (and not edit warring) I have managed to accomplish the changes section by section over the course of a couple weeks. I basically would have had to achieve consensus for my version, which could take a while. ForksForks (talk) 17:08, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have added a small subsection to verify content in the lead, and redid the 'source of rivers' section. Propose adding to this section to illustrate drainage basins. ForksForks (talk) 18:30, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'd like to propose a new lead image. The Elwha River photo is nice, but I think I'd like to show a photo of a more major river, in higher fidelity. The cloud cover in the current photo gives the photo a dimmed appearance, something with some visual appeal would be nice. I like this photo of the Missouri River. However, if people have other ideas, please share! ForksForks (talk) 13:27, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Rivers are a phenomena observed around the globe. Looking at the page, we have 24 images, and 19 are photos or satellite images. Of these, 8 are in the United States, and 9 are of North America, and 15 are of North America or Europe. Wikimedia Commons has many great images of Rivers from around the world. I would suggest trying to find images from other countries/places to round out representation. For example, the Three Gorges Dam in China, Blue Nile, Congo River, Amazon river, and Yarra River could round out the geographic representation of rivers in the world. We could include a Gallery to organize these images a bit, as seen below as an example with photos of things I mentioned.
Rivers:
Three Gorges Dam China
Bridges across the Blue Nile Gorge
International Space Station image of the Congo River. The smaller city is Brazzaville
I am pro-gallery but given the pushback I got earlier I didn't want to change the article from no-gallery to gallery. If you added one, I would not oppose it myself.
Do you have specific thoughts on a lead image? I am willing to sign onto a non-Western lead image if you're interested in picking one. ForksForks (talk) 17:09, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In terms of rivers for the lead, the Amazon, Nile, Yangtze, Yellow, Mississippi, and Congo would be good examples. I'd likely go with the Nile in terms of historical significance. Another fun one could be to use a photo of the Colorado river like the one here of Horseshoe bend Grand Canyon Horse Shoe Bend MC. The Colorado has some really dramatic erosion examples. Then we could swap out some of the other photos with ones from outside the US. If we go with the Elwaha River, Missouri River, or whatever we should probably change out some North American examples is my main point.
Also, fun photo I found on Wikimedia showing river valley networks on Mars.
Dried out river valley network on Mars (46442049924)
A gallery would be a nice inclusion but we'd need to find a good justification for what is included, for example "Gallery of the largest rivers by Continent" could be good, but the word "continent" is pretty fuzzy in of itself. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 18:21, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That is cool. So is the mars river valley from water? It may be worth mentioning in the article, but we are defining rivers as water-only. The previous version of the article had an image of a methane "river" on a moon (cool) but that's not a river under the definition.
Your edit to add the Mars photo flies afoul of MOS:SANDWICH. Make sure to view the article in standard mode and wide mode on desktop to make sure it fits. We may have to remove the Mars image for now if there's no space. ForksForks (talk) 19:26, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think I made it a bit better by moving the Nile image a bit. I think it's better, the Grand Canyon image seems a worse offender at the moment in terms of layout. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 21:19, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
To answer your question, Mars erosion is thought to be from water as opposed to flowing methane. Mars was once very wet based on the current scientific consensus, and water may still flow on the surface in liquid form sometimes. These features are thought to be from water. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 02:33, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I know it's been a few days since the last comment, but I just want to say that a featured picture would probably be better to use as the lead, whether it would be on Commons or on the English Wikipedia. ZZZ'S20:51, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's not showing much of the river, and the position is a bit awkward. Perhaps an aerial view or a photo from higher ground would be better. ZZZ'S21:44, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Finally, something that I think will please everyone. This is non-western, a featured picture on commons, substantially features the river as the subject of the photo, and has a nod to human activity. I've added this to the article. ForksForks (talk) 20:07, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
A river is a natural flowing freshwater stream, flowing on ==> "A river is a natural freshwater stream that flows on"
Water first enters rivers through precipitation, whether that be from remove "that be"
Rivers flow and merge together in remove "together"
in a straight line, instead they bend add a comma after "instead"
which serves to carve rock ==> "which carves rock"
People associate rivers with life and fertility, and have strong religious, political, social, and mythological attachments to them. remove the comma after "fertility"
Rivers and river ecosystems are threatened by water pollution, climate change, as well as human activity. ==> "Rivers and river ecosystems are threatened by water pollution, climate change, and human activity."
eliminated habitats, causing the extinction ==> "eliminated habitats, caused the extinction"
natural flow of fresh water that flows make "fresh water" a compound word
This flow can be into a lake or ocean, or another river. ==> "This flow can be into a lake, an ocean, or another river."
These in turn can still feed ==> "These, in turn, can still feed" (this is optional, but i prefer this)
land stored in soil ==> "land stored in the soil"
This phenomena is why ==> "This phenomenon is why"
they eventually merge together to form larger remove "together"
similar high elevation area, a canyon add a hyphen between "high" and "elevation"
exhibit this behavior, and may even remove the comma
sediment, also known as alluvium when because "also" is used once, i'd change this "also" to "often" or "sometimes"
valleys or carried all the way to the sea remove "all the way"
Rivers rarely will run in a straight direction, instead preferring to bend or meander. remove "will"
will still serve to block the flow remove "serve to"
causing it to reflect back in the remove "back"
These areas may have floodplains, areas that are periodically flooded when there is a high level of water running through the river. "areas" is used twice. could one be replaced.
where snow melt is required to fuel i'd both make "snow melt" and compound word and also link it to snowmelt
diverse microorganisms, and have become an remove the comma
This can happen in karst systems, areas where rock dissolves to form caves. remove "areas"
used only for storm water or "storm water" should be a single word and also link it to stormwater
flow down towards the ocean ==> "flow down toward the ocean"
involves a large scale collection of add a hyphen between "large" and "scale"
river engineering structures, that have the remove the comma
to the flow of the river, beneath its surface remove the comma
They may also be used for hydroelectricity, power generation from rivers. ==> "They may also be used for hydroelectricity and power generation from rivers."
focused in China, India and other areas in Asia add a comma after "India"
Three such civilizations ere the i think "ere" should be "were"
Humans have been building infrastructure to make use of rivers ==> "Humans have been building infrastructure to use rivers"
Roman civilization made use of aqueducts ==> "Roman civilization use aqueducts"
floodplain-based civilations may have "civilizations" is spelt wrong
destroying infrastructure; however there is evidence that permanent add a comma after "however"
The Sadd el-Kafara dam near Cairo, Egypt is add a comma after "Egypt" (in American English, after the name of a location, a comma is needed)
Water wheels turn an axle which can supply change "which" to "than"
many aspects manual labor ==> "many aspects of manual labor"
needed less protection, as humans remove comma
Rivers helped fuel urbanization, since goods remove the comma
and transportation to modern times, when remove the comma
due to concerns of pollution and the spread change "of" to "about"
The two cultures speak different languages, and rarely mix. remove the comma
Commission in order to manage ==> "Commission to manage"
Up to 60% of fresh water that is used by countries ==> "Up to 60% of freshwater used by countries"
rivers throughout the human history remove "the"
that the soul of those who "soul" ==> "souls"
the River Lethe in order to forget their previous ==> "the River Lethe to forget their previous"
milk, wine, and honey respectively add a comma after "honey"
have also cared for specific rivers as sacred rivers. unbold "sacred rivers"
The Nile had a number of gods ==> "The Nile had many gods"
revered, the he Ganges is most sacred i think it should be "the Ganges"
i'd recommend changing the section title from "threats to rivers" to "threats"
PFAS is a widely used chemical that breaks down at a very slow rate.[41] PFAS has been found in the bodies of humans and animals worldwide, as well as in the soil, with potentially negative health effects. ==> "Per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances (PFAS) is a widely used chemical that breaks down at a slow rate.[41] It has been found in the bodies of humans and animals worldwide, as well as in the soil, with potentially negative health effects."
Cities often have a network of storm drains that remove "a network of"
This is in part because a projected loss ==> "This is in part because of a projected loss "
can restore the natural habit of river species ==> "can restore the natural habits of river species"
Spotchecks check out. Images look fine too. The article has a very unlikely copyright violation of 5.7% from a NatGeo source. Passing. 750h+10:07, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
Overall: Adjusted the Wikilinks in the hooks. GA promoted two days ago, on 14 August. References were spot-checked for verification; no issues arose. I prefer the original hook. Yue🌙22:34, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I believe they were referring to this file in this section. Its caption says that it was taken in Quezon, which is in the Philippines. Since their edit request does not require reliable sources, I've went ahead and changed it. ZZZ'S03:00, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
level-3 vital article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
.jpg)
750h+ 12:46, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
Adjusted the Wikilinks in the hooks. GA promoted two days ago, on 14 August. References were spot-checked for verification; no issues arose. I prefer the original hook. Yue🌙 22:34, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ⸺(Random)staplers 02:42, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
