Talk:Richard Cheese

Star Wars song

He's most well-known among some for his Star Wars version of Manilow's "Copacabana", which probably could have been a minor hit, except that it's never had a real commercial release due to potential legal problems. It doesn't seem to be discussed on this page or the "Copacabana (song)" page... AnonMoos (talk) 14:18, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Finally figured out that it's discussed at Mos Eisley Cantina#Parody song, which should be linked from this article and the "Copacabana (song)" article... AnonMoos (talk) 15:27, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

He did about four or five Star Wars themed comedy songs/skits under his real name in the late 1990's before he became Richard Cheese. The Phantom Medley from 1999 was the other big one. He did later rerelease these tracks as Richard Cheese on his 2015 album, The Lounge Awakens, along with covers of some other people's Star Wars themed (and other space related) songs, including Weird Al's Yoda. Why there's not an article for Mark Jonathan Davis outlining his comedy career from before he was Richard Cheese, or even a reference to it in the history section, is anyone's guess.68.42.32.128 (talk) 03:53, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

Hello. "He did later rerelease these tracks as Richard Cheese" is not exactly accurate. These songs were released as bonus tracks on the Richard Cheese album, but they are still by Mark Jonathan Davis. I am working on a Mark Jonathan Davis page, too. Thank you. Richardcheese2 (talk) 12:29, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

Promotional tone

Hi Mark, I see that you undid the edit where I've been trying to reduce the promotional tone of the article. I would recommend that you propose edits here instead of editing the article directly. Maybe it would be helpful for you to read the Plain and simple conflict of interest guide. --Slashme (talk) 13:25, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

Okay, sorry, not trying to be difficult. I am not intending to be "promotional." Can you please put the article back the way I wrote it and then tell me which parts are "promotional" in tone in your opinion?

Also, I really don't understand why Mark Jonathan Davis is being redirected to Richard Cheese. I, Mark Jonathan Davis, am an actor and writer, and I have had an extensive career in the entertainment industry prior to creating the Richard Cheese character in 2000. Yes, Richard Cheese is one of my more famous roles, but prior to Richard Cheese, I did many voices in Warner Bros. animated TV programs and movies, was a regular on-air personality on the KROQ Kevin & Bean Morning Show in Los Angeles, and appeared on NBC's Friday Night, Comedy Central's The Man Show, and CBS's The Late Show With David Letterman. I also portray another singing character named Johnny Aloha, and a Johnny Aloha CD was released in 2010. So, because I have done many things other than just Richard Cheese, can you please help me put the Mark Jonathan Davis Wikipedia page back so it is its own entity?

Thanks. Richardcheese2 (talk) 07:09, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

There are a few issues here that I'll try and separate:

Copyright violation

If you take a look at the page history of Mark Jonathan Davis you'll see that User:wiae noticed that the page was a copyright violation of your website, and User:Mz7 responded by expunging the infringing revisions from the page history. I know what you're going to say: you wrote that, so you have the right to put it on Wikipedia. That doesn't work: at the bottom of your website, it says "(C) Copyright 1982-2017 Mark Jonathan Davis", not "Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License". Even if you have confirmed your real-world identity, we can't just take copyrighted material. --Slashme (talk) 09:03, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

Okay, I added "Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License" to my markjonathandavis.com website, and I re-created the Mark Jonathan Davis page with different writing. Richardcheese2 (talk) 07:39, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

Redirect vs separate article

I think it's quite plausible that you as person are independently notable, as is the Richard Cheese character. However, in the absence of a properly written Wikipedia article referenced to reliable, independent sources (i.e. not your own website!), redirecting it as it is at the moment is probably the most useful state for our readers. --Slashme (talk) 09:03, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

Self-promotion

First off, thanks for actually identifying yourself and interacting with us. That makes it possible for us to have an open discussion. I also get that you're doing your best to figure Wikipedia out. With that said, have you read Wikipedia:Autobiography? I think I've directed you to it before. The "TL;DR" version is "We have biographies here, not autobiographies. Avoid writing or editing an article about yourself, other than to correct unambiguous errors of fact."

When an article has been written with a promotional tone, it's like a steak that's fallen in the toilet. It takes a lot of work to clean it up, and it probably still won't taste right. That's why we sometimes take the "blow it up and start over" approach! --Slashme (talk) 09:03, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

Considering AfD

I am considering an AfD for this and all related articles - clearly part of a massive autobiographical walled garden with essentially no sources even with that issue being pointed out (see comments by Slashme I see nothing that supports any notability.Peter Rehse (talk) 16:09, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

Hi PRehse, my point of view is that the general topic has some notability, but doesn't warrant a separate article for each of Mark Jonathan Davis's characters/personas. The other problem is that the continual promotional editing by the subject of the articles gives us a real problem with the balance and tone of the articles, so that WP:TNT might be the only option. I would unhesitatingly support redirecting/merging all the articles on the topic either to this article or to the MJD article. I am in two minds about just deleting everything, but I am seriously beginning to consider requesting admin intervention to help Richardcheese2 to get the point. --Slashme (talk) 09:00, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

Slashme If it was clear cut I would have done it already - I too think that one article is best but we also have the refusal to provide any sources. All we have is a list of material which once would think there is some outside references discussing it. This is one of the most egregious abuses of wiki self promotion I have seen in quite a while.Peter Rehse (talk) 09:11, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

Gentlemen -- Thanks for your comments. I would like to make it clear that it is not my intention to self-promote; I updated the Richard Cheese Wikipedia page -- which has been out of date for many years == with the current and accurate information. I hope you understand that I am not 'refusing' to provide any sources, I simply do not know how to provide sources for this stuff, both technically (because I am not Wikipedia savvy) and factually. For example, how do I provide a source for my band's discography or our tour history or our TV appearances? The Richard Cheese & Lounge Against The Machine band has been performing for 17 years, we've released 20 albums, we've been on national TV shows and so forth. That in itself should be justification for keeping the page on wikipedia. And, I would think that the information on the official website (richardcheese.com) for the band should be satisfactory documentation. If it's not, then please tell me how I'm supposed to provide sources for all this stuff? I honestly don't know.

Meanwhile, I created the Mark Jonathan Davis Wikipedia page because I am an established actor with a variety of verified screen credits. I am registered with the Screen Actor's Guild. I have been a guest star on several primetime programs. My name appears in the credits of numerous TV series, movies, etc. Richard Cheese is just one of the things I have done. So why can't the Mark Jonathan Davis page exist on its own?

I realize that I am a 'newbie' to the ways of Wikipedia, but I don't think it's fair to presume that I am intentionally attempting anything malicious, dishonest, disingenuous, or self-serving. I am not trying to be egregious at anything; I just wanted to update the Wikipedia pages to include current and accurate information. Instead of assuming the worst, perhaps you can please tell me what specific things I need to write to make this acceptable?

Thank you. Sincerely, MJD Richardcheese2 (talk) 06:24, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

At the very least I would expect one article (advise MJD) and not articles on each persona and every song. References don't support that level of notability. There is just too much unsupported duplication to come to any other conclusion.Peter Rehse (talk) 14:23, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

I completely agree with this point of view. The way I see it, is there's a person (MJD) who has a number of personas of various levels of notability, but it serves our readers best at this point if we have all these terms point to one article. It can be maintained better that way, and we can address the various aspects of the topic in one place. I don't really care whether the article is called Richard Cheese or Mark Jonathan Davis. I'm leaning towards Richard Cheese, though, because of WP:COMMONNAME. For example, Slim Shady and Marshall Mathers both point to Eminem. --Slashme (talk) 13:48, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

SlashmeIts like an itch that just won't go away. Still no sources on any of the articles - do I or do I not take this to AfD. Seems more than enough chance has been given and I don't see inherit notability.Peter Rehse (talk) 19:51, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

PRehse, I have added some references on this page, however it is still largely unreferenced. Bakilas (talk) 07:20, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

About that autobiography...

I've reverted the claim that Davis offered a refund to Kickstarter backers in October 2018, the claim that Covid delayed publication, and the announcement of a new working title [1].

(Redacted) Yappy2bhere (talk) 22:21, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Much of what you just typed is just your opinion, and you made a number of subjective assumptions and baseless accusations. Comments like "perhaps to salvage some of its hype" are completely inappropriate. Such insinuations have no place here. And re-posting that Kickstarter comment thread is irrelevant to the edits you made. I see from your talk page that haughtiness and hostility are your consistent m.o. It is obvious that you are more interested in stirring up controversy and bullying strangers than improving pages.

And so I add my voice to the chorus of people who think you should be banned from editing.

Stop making personal attacks, stop making belligerent edits, and stop chasing me around and undoing all the diligent work I've done. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:8001:9442:6d00:40d9:c028:a0e7:8185 (talk • contribs) 08:37, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Yappy2bhere - none of that material belongs in the article unless it is supported by secondary sources. We shouldn't be using kickstarter pages or publishers' websites to support that sort of assertion - if secondary sources haven't picked up on the book, cut the mention of it from the article entirely. Girth Summit _(blether) 09:37, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

None of it is in the article. I updated the autobiography text added by Richardcheese2 [2] and added sources [3]. 2603:8001:9442:6d00:40d9:c028:a0e7:8185 added new text citing the book's promo site. I reverted the edit because it was supported with primary sources and because the claims weren't prima facie credible. [4]. I added this section and explained my reservations about the sourcing. (Except in re primary sourcing, which should have come first.)

Book is gone [5]. I'm still not sure why, or what you mean by "that sort of assertion". My revision to the article said "book, funded, undelivered, due date," supported by the Kickstarter project page and the book's promo site. Can you elaborate, pls? Yappy2bhere (talk) 10:57, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Yappy2bhere, I meant the inclusion of any reference to the book at all. If all there is to go on is a kickstarter page and a promo page, inclusion would likely be WP:UNDUE. We shouldn't be digging through historic versions of a Kickstarter project page and posting what we find here - that's WP:OR based on an archived unreliable and primary source. I'm actually minded to redact most of the stuff you posted there as a possible BLP violation (it's claiming that Richard Cheese wrote those words to a fan, but the source is highly questionable). Girth Summit _(blether) 11:21, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Does anyone know when Mark Jonathan Davis and Rob Izenberg released "We Love Barney Fife". I can't find any documented info anywhere. Broadway64200 (talk) 16:04, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Discography Update

The Richard Cheese discography is missing a few releases.

These albums should be added to the list:

"The Royal Baby Album" (digital only) (2013) (Coverage Records)

"Cocktails With Santa" (2013) (Coverage Records)

These albums are verified on Spotify and listed on iTunes:

https://music.apple.com/us/album/cocktails-with-santa/1508584518

https://music.apple.com/us/album/the-royal-baby-album/1506696017

There is also a compilation album missing from the list:

"Mucho Queso Collection: 17 Complete Albums by Richard Cheese" (digital only) (2021) (Coverage Records)

Here it is on Bandcamp:

https://richardcheese.bandcamp.com/album/mucho-queso-collection

And, there is a new Richard Cheese compilation album being released on July 30, 2021 which should be added to the Compilation Albums section:

"Snappier Than Ever: The Original Songs" (digital only) (2021) (Coverage Records)

The album is currently on pre-sale on iTunes:

https://music.apple.com/us/album/snappier-than-ever-the-original-songs/1575769661

Also, I think the Discography section should be moved so it precedes the Film Work section.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:8001:9442:6d00:7437:241a:924f:df7 (talk • contribs) 23:50, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

Bandcamp is user-generated content: "[W]ebsites with user-generated content should never be used as sources". iTunes is an online retailer: "It can be seen as inappropriate to directly link to a site where one can purchase the subject in question." Per WP:WikiProject Albums/Sources, which has lists of reliable and unreliable sources. Yappy2bhere (talk) 04:02, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

STOP. HOUNDING. ME.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:8001:9442:6d00:7437:241a:924f:df7 (talk • contribs)

IP, Y2bh isn't hounding you. They're telling you why a certain source isn't good enough for WP. We have established policy here for what can be used to support assertions in a WP article. You can read more about it at WP:RS. Bandcamp is user-generated, which means it is inherently unreliable. I don't know the rules for discography sections, so I can't tell you whether the Apple and Spotify sources, which only prove something exists, also prove it's worth including, but we don't use links to them for sources for the reasons Y2bh has explained.

Please sign your posts by ending them with four tildes (~~~~) so that other editors can follow the conversation more easily. —valereee (talk) 16:00, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Added "Baby" and "Santa" to Discography, cited support for and/or tagged all of them. Allmusic supports most of the releases but lacks dates for most of them. That uglified the section; I'm inclined to just delete the unsupported dates. Opinions? Yappy2bhere (talk) 22:26, 22 July 2021 (UTC)