Talk:Revolutionary Cells (German group)

Expansion needed

This is a very significant topic and as such has a way too short an explanation. It is, like many other wiki subjects, quite lacking. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.141.108.175 (talk) 23:01, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Anti-semitism

I removed the passage accusing RZ of antisemitism, after talk page correspondence with user:Telaviv1. http://www.tau.ac.il/Anti-Semitism/asw2005/karmon.html doesn't really back up the wording "group is reported to have been highly antisemitic". Karmon mentions that one former terrorist says (after splitting from the movement) that he had reacted against the behavoir of two RZ militants in Entebbe, not really basis for accusing the entire group as such. --Soman (talk) 10:58, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

No, Karmon says that they planned to murder Simon Wiesenthal. That in addition to their anti-semitic activity in Entebbe. I will reinstate the reference with a provisor as to its source.

Telaviv1 (talk) 11:09, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Karmon says that Klein says that two RZ militants were planning to kill Wiesenthal. The recent edit of yours is Original Synthesis, and doesn't back up the assertion that RZ would have displayed "extreme antisemitism". And, I'm not sure of what exactly is meant by the etext document, the way I read it it's a rebuttal of Klein's accusations that RZ would have been anti-semitic. --Soman (talk) 11:38, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

I suggest you learn about antisemitism before you address this issue, since you clearly do not understand the concept. Telaviv1 (talk) 11:51, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

this doesn't really take the debate forward. Simply demanding carte blanche won't really work, the burden of putting up solid references of your accusation lie on you. So far the referencing has been clearly faulty, OS and the wordings insinuative. --Soman (talk) 12:02, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

On the contrary, I have responded to your nit-picking and managed to extend the references. BTW RAF or RZ trained alongside German neo-nazis in Libya. The German Foreign Minsister Fischer left a training camp as a result. The RZ response is a rebuttal (of sorts - it does not actually deny antisemitism) but also an admission of the truth of his accusations regarding Galinski. I have provided you with a reliable academic source as you requested, including a quote. Telaviv1 (talk) 13:01, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

three points: 1) guilt-by-association reasoning doesn't prove anything, 2) the RZ response is definately a rebuttal, it responds to HJK's allegations stating that they are a side-track, 3) the 'reliable academic source' states that HJK considered that two RZ militants as more anti-semitic that Wadi Haddad. The quote says nothing about the character of RZ as a whole. --Soman (talk) 13:15, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

The quote indicates what a former member thought and provides enough information for readers to make their own decision and do more research if they want. The Entebbe raid was antisemitic because the Germans released non-Jews. Had they only held Israeli citizens it would not have looked quite as bad but it was the Jews they were after. The fact Germans would make such a selection had a strong assoication with the Nazis and made a strong impression on me at the time (I was 15). Telaviv1 (talk) 19:32, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it indicates what one former member thought. It does not provide enough information to brand the entire RZ as antisemitic. --Soman (talk) 05:43, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

if an organization does take part in an operation that includeds the selection (and planed execution) of jews simply for being jewish - what can it be more anti-semitic than that? 46.223.178.52 (talk) 08:48, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

-- As far as I understand the issue, the kidnappers were not targetting Jews because of just being Jews; they were targetting Israeli passengers, as a symbol of Israel and Zionism, the same way as in other attacks other groups have being targetting US citizens because of or arguing that they represent the US policies and attacks all over the world. BTW, Wadie Haddad, being Palestinian Arab, he was semitic. Many people -malitiously or by ignorance- mistake Anti-Zionism (or just criticism of Israeli policies) for Anti-Semitism, while not seing any kind of Anti-Semitism in Israel's and Zionist movement's apartheid and attacks against Palestinians, Lebanese, Syrians... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.39.218.10 (talk) 14:07, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

Factsloving animal

The first sentence in "History" is simply nonsensical. The Red Zora a completely different entity? And "Autonome" in Frankfurt were called "Spontis" then and (some of them, like the RK) were living like maoists: working in factories, studying Marx, streetfighting training sessions. Not at all as far as I know like "Autonome" today. W. Böse, the founder of the RZ came from the strong Frankfurt Black Panther solidarity group (like others in the rz). H- J Klein also was not someone just in from the street, he had been on the scene for years, was known as a tough streetfighter in the Häuserkampf (squatters movement) and for some time close with Cohn-Bendit and Fischer and their RK (Revolutionärer Kampf). --Radh (talk) 00:04, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Please make the corrections you mention. Telaviv1 (talk) 18:41, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Will do, but want to have a look at some literature first, because I feel I am too dependent on Klein.--Radh (talk) 19:08, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Klein's mother

Hi,there are two sources I can think of in the moment, which seem to indicate that Klein's mother was not in fact Jewish: a television documentary which ran on the German public ARD network http://www.daserste.de/doku/beitrag_dyn~uid,0ic81691ane4t3ed~cm.asp. It attracted international attention under the English title "My Life as a Terrorist", see http://www.filmstransit.com/hj_klein.html or here: http://mmbase.submarinechannel.com/shop/index.jsp?theme=products&u=22717&t=pview and an article in Süddeutsche Zeitung, a national broadsheet paper in Germany. In the film, Klein retraces his biography and also visits Ravensbruck concentration camp but is unable to find his mother's name in the camp-register of Jewish inmates. Instead, he learns that his mother had been detained by the Nazis for an alleged relationship to a Jewish male. Also, see Süddeutsche Zeitung from October 18th, 2000: "Immer an vorderster Front Der frühere Terrorist Hans-Joachim Klein schildert, warum er den "Revolutionären Zellen" beitrat".Klein's child-beating father, by the way, had been a member of the SS who, after the war, became a police inspector. --Rbudegb (talk) 15:56, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

This is all quite interesting and I suggest you put it into the article (with the references) - unless you want to open one on Klein. Telaviv1 (talk) 11:59, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Terrorist organization

This article needs to make it clear that the German authorities (and the public) considered them to be a terrorist group. This should be attributed in the text in line with WP:TERRORIST -- PBS (talk) 08:12, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

I have added a new clause to the first sentence attributing terrorism to the Interior Ministry. -- PBS (talk) 11:09, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Number of attacks

Currently the article says:

According to the office of the German Federal Prosecutor, the Revolutionary Cells claimed responsibility for 186 attacks, of which 40 were committed in West Berlin

These facts need to be linked to a cited source. Here are two the first partially backs up the sentence, while the second states that despite their claims they were linked to more:

• The RZ is said to have carried out some 186 attacks, mostly aimed at causing material damage, before disbanding after the fall of the Berlin Wall.

  RZ members were also linked to the 1975 hostage-taking at the Opec conference in Vienna and the hijacking of the Air France plane stormed by Israeli troops in Entebbe, Uganda, in 1976." ("German 1970s 'radicals' surrender". BBC. 4 February 2007.)

• According to the Web site of the Interior Ministry of the German state of North Rhine-Westphalia, Revolutionary Cells was responsible for at least 295 attacks between 1973 and 1995.

  Group members helped Carlos the Jackal take ministers hostage at an OPEC conference in Vienna in 1975. Two were killed in July 1976 when an Air France plane they helped hijack was stormed by Israeli special forces in Entebbe, Uganda. (DW staff (emw) (5 February 2007). "Terrorist Suspects Surrender After 19 Years". Deutsche Welle.)

-- PBS (talk) 11:09, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Feminism

Hi - thanks for writing about this history. About this phrase

"The core beliefs of the Revolutionary Cells can be understood as an amalgam of radical left anti-imperialist liberation doctrine mixed with strong anti-Zionist, anti-patriarchal feminist, and anti-racist elements."

My sense of it is that it mayn't be so easy to simply be feminist and anti patriarchal by declaring it, important though that declaration is, and it wouldn't be difficult to see at least some of the positions and practices described here as anti feminist and patriarchal. I do think it is important to know that these were planks of the Revolutionary Cell's politics, and it is thought-provoking. Am I jumping to conclusions in thinking that a self-identified Jewish woman could easily be in danger from such positions and practices? To me feminism means women's liberation. There may be some concepts of liberation that would free a Jewish woman of her Jewishness. Or an Irish woman of her Irishness. Though the former has a profound history in Christian Europe, whereas the latter just sounds weird. So I question whether the ideology managed to be feminist. Or anti patriarchal - the latter has also to do with violence, and there isn't any way to escape debate about that, a debate in which people will take different positions; for example of course that women have been conditioned to be non violent, and to espouse that wld be to reproduce the terms of subjugation. But the fact is there are plenty of feminists whose feminism would prohibit actions such as those described.

So since the article is supposed to be 'politically neutral' I think that the sentence could say

The core beliefs of the Revolutionary Cells were proclaimed as an amalgam of radical left anti-imperialist liberation doctrine mixed with strong anti-Zionist, anti-patriarchal feminist, and anti-racist elements.

or if we kept the sentence as is, with 'can be understood', then to add something after it.

The core beliefs of the Revolutionary Cells can be understood as an amalgam of radical left anti-imperialist liberation doctrine mixed with strong anti-Zionist, anti-patriarchal feminist, and anti-racist elements. It is also possible, perhaps from within the same subjectivity, and perhaps not, to see unwished for racism, anti feminism and the reproduction of patriarchy in the mix.

I believe that finding a voice for the conflicts around these definitions would be a better way of embracing the contradictions that may be involved in opposing racism, imperialism and patriarchy. Again a definition, among many - ideology is what papers over cracks, shows unity of purpose and meaning and discourse, when there is conflict, plurality, dissent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mark Joseph (talk • contribs) 19:42, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

German reunification

"dissolution of the Soviet Union and subsequent German reunification."

German reunification (1990) was before the dissolution of Soviet Union (1991)--MiguelMadeira (talk) 11:51, 2 February 2017 (UTC)