Talk:Red herring

Anglo-Norman texts

User:Deor. The Anglo-Norman text is: here on line 317. The Fema edition currently cited with a Middle English translation is actually early 15th century: here on page 79. The other manuscripts listed in the first link date manuscripts to the early 14th century. However, The OED says: "(from 13th cent. in British sources), Anglo-Norman and Middle French hareng sor (c1290 in the passage glossed in quot. a1333 at sense 1a; French hareng saur)." This is saying the manuscript Gloss. W. de Bibbesworth (BL Add.) (1929) 314 (MED) which dates to 1333 is a gloss of an earlier Anglo-Norman text from ca. 1290 .. thus we can arrive at late 13th century for first known usage, even if the original Anglo-Norman manuscript exists only in the form of a 1333 gloss (I believe this is what is meant). -- GreenC 22:42, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

@GreenC: The way I interpret the OED's citation is that Bibbesworth used hareng sor in the late 13th century, but the earliest attested use of English "red herring" is in the 14th-century gloss of Bibbesworth's work. I can't really tell whether this article is trying to describe the first evidence of the general idea of a red herring in any language or specifically the first use of "red herring" in English. In any event, I think the sentence should be reworded to make the intended meaning more clear. Deor (talk) 23:49, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

Heege Manuscript

The Guardian recently reported, based on a study in The Review of English Studies, that the earliest recorded use was in the Heege Manuscript - see ‘Mad and offensive’ texts shed light on the role played by minstrels in medieval society, although a date is not specified. Anyone got access to that journal? Masato.harada (talk) 09:27, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

Curious timing! this article goes into more detail. The text is from the 15th century copied from notes used by a bard. It contains "the earliest recorded use of 'red herring' to mean a diversion". The above discussion concerns the literal food, but the earliest use of the idiom is very important for this article. Some work needs to be done to integrate this new information. Thanks for the lead! -- GreenC 14:24, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

BTW I don't think we should add it without first reading the journal article to make sure it really says what the news reports, there might be qualifiers needed. WP:REX might have access. -- GreenC 14:35, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

The paper is freely online here - it says nothing about red herring meaning a diversion. Am I missing something? -- GreenC 14:41, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

I too see no evidence of the "diversion" sense, as well as no claim that the Heege MS's use of "red herring" is the first in English. Deor (talk) 14:50, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

This Telegraph article appears to make the claim (of the earliest figurative sense) in an interview with the author of the paper:

"The tale goes that the oxen then chop each other up so much that they are reduced to three “red herrings”. The joke, Dr Wade said, is bizarre but uses red herring to mean a diversion and was used in such a way that the “minstrel must have known people would get this red herring reference”. “Kings are reduced to mere distractions. What are kings good for? Gluttony. And what is the result of gluttony? Absurd pageantry creating distractions, ‘red herrings’,” Dr Wade added.

-- GreenC 14:52, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

All that I can say is that Wade's reading seems pretty forced to me. I just see literal red herrings. Deor (talk) 15:00, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

Humor is notoriously time sensitive, what was funny even 40 years ago can seem strange today. It's all a matter of context with the times, and off handed references so one can criticize without being too direct. -- GreenC 16:06, 2 June 2023 (UTC)