Talk:Qaleen

Sourcing

OK, let’s have a look at the sources (source numbering as in this version).

[1] This just says that qaleen is an Arabic word meaning carpet (incidentally, the source is not, as claimed, in Arabic but is a book in English about Arabic, including an Arabic/Turkish/Italian/English glossary).

Source informs that Qaleen is a carpet.RAJIVVASUDEV (talk) 10:49, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

[2] Says it’s a Turkish term meaning carpet, used in Central Asia, Iran and Turkey, then goes on to use carpets as a metaphor for Afghanistan.

Source informs that qaleen is a handicraft item which makes it unique than many other carpets since they were recognised by the knid of artwork and region. RAJIVVASUDEV (talk) 10:41, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

[3] This source mentions a number of other types of carpet, but doesn’t mention qaleen, searched for under a variety of spellings it comes back as “not found”.

Inline reference 2 and 3 are together

[4] The only “qaleen” mentioned by this source is a craftsman called “Qaleen Bauf”.

Source informs about the skill transfer to India subcontinentRAJIVVASUDEV (talk) 11:15, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

[5] Says that qaleen is an Urdu word meaning carpets.

This is what the text says. RAJIVVASUDEV (talk) 10:49, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

[6] Says that 80,000 workers were involved in qaleen making. It says something about a couple of varieties of carpet called Namda and Gabba, but nothing about qaleen other than that it’s a carpet.

Source informs clearly that Qaleen, Namda and Gabba were special qualities of carpet. Is not it ?RAJIVVASUDEV (talk) 10:49, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

[7] Says that something called a qaleen was made at Chitral, but that this wasn’t actually a carpet but something called a “palask”, but since we have no explanation of what a palask is we’re none the wiser (nor even, as F. E. Smith might have said, better informed).

Do you want One. Buy here.RAJIVVASUDEV (talk) 11:01, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

The sourcing gives no indication that qaleen means anything beyond “carpet”, or give any distinctive features that would allow qaleen to be distinguished from carpets in general. Brunton (talk) 09:58, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

Basically, this article needs sourced content that is actually about a specific type of carpet called qaleen, giving specific characteristics of qaleen that enable it to be distinguished from other types of carpet. Otherwise it needs to be redirected to carpet. Brunton (talk) 10:17, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

This is a pattern and policy is WP:NPA. Kindly wait for the points which are not replied. ThanksRAJIVVASUDEV (talk) 11:01, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

RAJIVVASUDEV, Roxy the dog, Amkgp, any comments? Brunton (talk) 10:25, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

Brunton, Roxy the dog, I have replied to this version for now. And I am improving the references as I did at Khes, where you and Roxy found it challenging to distinguish between Khes and Kesh. BTW there are few things still pending at Talk:Khes. Kindly conclude. Thanks and regards RAJIVVASUDEV (talk) 11:52, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

References

RAJIVVASUDEV, to reply to some of your points:

[1] No, the source does not say that qaleen “is a carpet”, it says that “qaleen” is an Arabic word meaning “carpet”.

[2] It says that gileem, jajeem and qaleen are all types of carpet, and says that all three terms are Turkish and used throughout Central Asia, Iran and Turkey. It doesn’t support the implication that qaleen is, or has been, specific to Afghanistan. It doesn’t really say anything useful about qaleen, it doesn’t support the descriptions of “suttoranchee” and jajeem, which are in any case not the topic of the article.

[3] References 2 and 3 are not together, they are supposedly supporting different sentences. Reference 3 and the sentence it supports are not relevant to this article. If you mean that you are trying to read sources 2 and 3 together, then you’re not supposed to do that.

[4] It says that a number of craftsmen were assigned to places in Kashmir but doesn’t say that making qaleen was among their skills; “qaleen” is only mentioned as the name of one of the artisans.

[5] Yes, and WP:NOTDICT. It does nothing to establish that there is a valid article here.

[6] It uses qaleen as a term for carpet, but does it give any description of what “qaleen” actually is, that would enable “qaleen” to be distinguished from any other sort of carpet?

[7] No thank you. But, again, what does this say about “qaleen” as the term is used in the rest of the article? It’s a source for a statement that a qaleen is a type of “palask”, whatever that is, made from goat and yak hair, but it isn’t necessarily relevant to the rest of the article.

Can you provide a diff that shows me struggling to distinguish between “Khes” and “Kesh”, or making personal attacks? If not, kindly withdraw your WP:ASPERSIONS. Brunton (talk) 12:47, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

Brunton, Rajiv - YES redirect to carpet, per Rajiv's sources. I'll do it if you like? -Roxy the inedible dog . wooF 16:16, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

Roxy the dog, Brunton, Amkgp, john B123, Please do not redirect WP:PAPER. Kindly revisit the article. Best regardsRAJIVVASUDEV (talk) 03:01, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

It isn’t clear how AGF or NPA are relevant here, unless there’s some implication that other editors are not assuming good faith or are making personal attacks. Again, I suggest that you refrain from casting aspersions.

OK, let’s have a look at the first sentence of the body: Qaleen means a rug or a woolen carpet or a soft spread cloth for flooring in Urdu. this now has 4 sources, but 2 of them are irrelevant as they are to sources about the word in Arabic and Hindustani. The other two say it just means “carpet”. Brunton (talk) 12:04, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

Looking at the lead, the source used for the sentence, Qaleens are locally known as “KalBaffi” doesn’t quite say this: it says that hand knotted carpets are “locally known as KalBaffi or Qaleen” but doesn’t actually say that these are alternative terms for the same type of carpet. Incidentally, if the article is going to say “locally” it needs to say where, but first it needs to be properly sourced. Brunton (talk) 12:39, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

The source that describes making them as a handicraft says that it is practised by migrants who have settled in Turkey and Iran, but the article doesn’t mention these locations. The reference to other types of carpet is not really relevant to this article. Brunton (talk) 12:59, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

The statement about the amount of time needed to make a qaleen seems to be unsourced. Brunton (talk) 13:25, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

Qaleen Bauf was an artisan, not a carpet. The source mentioning him doesn’t mention the carpet so is irrelevant here. The link given in the reference indicated that this book was a search result for the words “qaleen”, “a”, “handwoven” and “carpet”, but they don’t appear in it in association with each other. Brunton (talk) 13:31, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

Just ping me once you finish your presentation. So that I can rejoin. Please mention the source no. ThanksRAJIVVASUDEV (talk) 15:14, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

RAJIVVASUDEV, can you provide the text from “Mahjubah” that supports the first paragraph of the “Adaption with industry” section? It isn’t necessary to quote it in the ref in the article, just post the relevant passages on this talk page. And do you have the author and title of the article you’re citing, rather than just the name of the journal? Brunton (talk) 15:24, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

Do you have a source for qaleens being made by machine? And do you know what a “palask” is in this context? I haven’t been able to track down anything that seems relevant. Brunton (talk) 15:44, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

Please refer to recent edits. ThanksRAJIVVASUDEV (talk) 04:08, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

What is the source for the passage the evolution and transformation in the use of floor coverings , entered into a new phase with the advent of wool Spindles , soon the methods changed entirely , forming different varieties? I see you removed the source you originally cited for this, but the one you replaced it with doesn’t really support this text. Also, we still have no indication of what a “palask” is, and whether the palask referred to as qaleens are actually the same thing as the subject of this article. “Qaleens” are defined here as carpets, while the source says that the palasks referred to as qaleens are not actually carpets, so it isn’t clear that they are the same thing. Brunton (talk) 05:34, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

@Brunton It is a case of Lost in translation Source Page 131 warns and informs that it is a particular type of Qaleen. May I request you a bit of diligence at Fabric checking? One user ripped it apart. Thanks RAJIVVASUDEV (talk) 11:44, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

No, the source says that the particular “qaleen” it is referring to is a type of palask. Without knowing what a palask is we can’t say whether this is actually one of the qaleens that this article is about. The only indication of its nature I can see in the source (other than its composition) is that it is not a carpet; since this article is about a type of carpet this suggests that it may be a different usage of the word “qaleen”.

The “translation” issue is also a bit of a problem in other ways. From the sources that have been cited “qaleen” is a word that means “carpet” in a number of places and languages (and even times), presumably all from the same root but not necessarily all meaning exactly the same type of carpet. Possibly the article should say that it is a general term for carpet in a variety of places (and for example we have a source that says qaleens are still made in Turkey and Iran) and mention the apparent Persian origins, and then have a section about “qaleens” in Kashmir, where the term means a particular type of handmade carpet according to the sources. Incidentally, the lead (that’s the section above the table of contents) should briefly summarise the article. It should probably be cut down to a couple of sentences for an article of this length, with the content that isn’t elsewhere moved into the body of the article, but the body needs to be fixed before we can trim the lead to something appropriate. Brunton (talk) 18:05, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

Brunton See, I have no idea what it is Palask, and there is minimal information about this particular item. Maybe it is a word from Cant (language) or a case of Jargon. I have added one more source but kindly note, we are not struggling here for Palask. Both sources are describing it as a qaleen (made of Yak hairs). I hope your all doubts are resolved now; I need your attention at Fabric inspection . Thanks RAJIVVASUDEV (talk) 03:37, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

The source cited for Now Qaleens are made with looms and powerlooms in many parts of India and Pakistan doesn’t support this. It says that the manufacture of qaleens in Kashmir is threatened by competition from machine-made carpets from elsewhere, but doesn’t say that these machine made carpets are qaleens. Brunton (talk) 05:44, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

See it is corrected. Thanks and regardsRAJIVVASUDEV (talk) 11:44, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

“Origin”

The “Origin” section is not actually about the origin of qaleen, but about its introduction to Kashmir. It isn’t clear from the rest of the article why this is important enough to merit its own section, and from what the sources say the origins actually seem to be in the Middle East. Additionally the source for this section gives two alternative stories about the introduction to Kashmir, but the article ignores one of them. If the source is a good enough source for one story, it should be good enough for both. If not it shouldn’t be used. Brunton (talk) 18:23, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

We can change the section heading to history and you are welcome to correct any inaccuracies. And thanks for your edits. RAJIVVASUDEV (talk) 03:27, 24 December 2020 (UTC):