Talk:Puławians

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On 4 March 2024, it was proposed that this article be moved from Puławy faction to Puławians. The result of the discussion was moved.

Unwarranted move

Hi @Artemis Andromeda the name of the faction comes from the Puławska street in Warsaw, not from the town of Puławy :) So the name should be "Puławianie" or in the worse case "Puławska Street Faction"; although I strongly recommend the first one. Can you reverse your move? Cheers Marcelus (talk) 13:37, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Marcelus: I disagree. Firstly, the opposing fraction is known on English Wikipedia as Natolin faction, not Natolinczycy. Secondly, Puławianie directly translates to "people from Pulawy". Maybe the name was inspired by the street, but grammatically, it cared the meaning of the original namesake. In the city there are actually quite a few things whose name was inspired by Pulawska Street, but with the name grammatically reffering to the original place instea, and this isn't much different. Artemis Andromeda (talk) 14:02, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, but it's not something you can agree or disagree on, the faction isn't named after Puławy, period. Also see sources: https://marzec68.sztetl.org.pl/en/slowo/pulawianie/ and https://marzec68.sztetl.org.pl/en/slowo/natolinczycy/; the article should be moved to Puławianie faction.Marcelus (talk) 14:38, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 4 March 2024

Initial proposal

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus for now - opening fresh discussion with new proposal below — Amakuru (talk) 15:35, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Puławy faction → Puławianie faction – Current title is misleading, the name of the faction comes from the Puławska Street in Warsaw, not the town of Puławy, as the current title suggest. See: https://marzec68.sztetl.org.pl/en/slowo/pulawianie/; "Puławianie faction" name will be consistent with the Natolin faction article. Marcelus (talk) 12:20, 4 March 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. — Amakuru (talk) 12:31, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Soviet Union has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 15:06, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Jewish history has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 15:06, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

GScholar: "Puławy faction" (26 hits), "Puławianie faction" (1 hit). I would not object to Puławianie, like on pl wiki as used in some English works too (see query), but I think Puławianie faction would be the worst of both worlds. Ping User:Nihil novi for thoughts on what sounds best in English? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:43, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

User:Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus, thank you for inviting me to look at the "Puławy faction" article.

To understand the title quandary and the article itself, I had to edit the article, which I have done.

It transpired that both the "Puławy faction" and "Natolin faction" articles are currently mistitled. The first faction is not named after the city of Puławy but after Warsaw's Puławy Street; and the second is not named for Warsaw's Natolin district but for Natolin Palace.

I therefore recommend that "Puławy faction" be retitled to "Puławy Street faction"; and "Natolin faction", to "Natolin Palace faction".

The final paragraph of the "Puławy faction" article remains incomprehensible to me, so I did not attempt to edit it.

Nihil novi (talk) 05:02, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, I've done my own c/e of the two articles (removing the wiki-invention "natolines" from the other article too). However, no source outside Wikipedia uses the "Puławy Street faction" or "Natolin Palace faction", and per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:OR I think we should be careful trying to introduce our own translations. In addition to the terms above, I'll add now "[1]" (~100 hits). It seems this is the most common translation of this term into English (Puławianie->Puławians). I expect we should likewise rename Natolin faction to Natolinians, but we can discuss it at the talk page of that article if anyone wwants. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:56, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Nihil novi, @Piotrus: "Natolin faction" bother me less, because the palace is still in the Natolin district, and both the district and the palace share the same name, so the name of the faction isn't misleading. Certainly not on the level of "Puławy faction" which denotes completely different place. The popularity of "Puławy faction" in GS surprise me greatly, but still "Puławianie" is much more popular (125 hits), so maybe we should go with that? Marcelus (talk) 08:36, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Right, but we should standardize it with Natolin case. It would be weird (inconsistnet) to rename this one to Puławiane but keep the other one as Natolin faction. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:46, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisting comment - @Marcelus, Piotrus, and Nihil novi: I sense that there's almost a consensus to move to Puławianie here, but would be good if you guys can arrive at a final consensus. Also, should the Natolin faction article be brought into this discussion too? We can add it as a second part of the move request if required. Cheers — Amakuru (talk) 12:31, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Amakuru Given WP:USEENGLISH, my current recommendations is Puławians. And yes, move Natolin faction to Natolinians. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:50, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Fresh proposal

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) SilverLocust 💬 17:18, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Puławy faction → Puławians
Natolin faction → Natolinians

Per above discussion and relisting comment, I'm reopening the proposal with the variants proposed by Piotrus so we can get a clear sense of whether these have consensus. Please indicate if these are supported or not, or suggest other alternatives if desired. — Amakuru (talk) 15:35, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment @Marcelus, Piotrus, and Nihil novi: - please note this revised proposal, and indicate whether you support or oppose it. — Amakuru (talk) 15:36, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support: The proposed names are conveniently brief, and vague enough to satisfactorily accommodate the pertinent concepts.

Thank you, Amakuru, for your help toward resolving this question!

Nihil novi (talk) 17:38, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support per my comments above, including search results which suggests those are most common names in English.

_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 00:44, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support, not my preferable option, but better than what is now Marcelus (talk) 16:06, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.