Talk:Prekmurje Slovenes

Proposed deletion

I think the article is intelligible enough to repair and keep. I'll try to take it on but my time is limited. --cbdorsett (talk) 05:59, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

I support deletion. The article is generally unintelligible and of questionable accuracy. Regrettably, linguistic and factual repairs are likely to be reverted. Doremo (talk) 11:54, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

The article is not implausible. Your moves the other day was stunner, as the some people of the SIL also approve the Prekmurian name. How do you know, that what is the Prekmurian language and identity? Doncsecz^talk 12:04, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Disputed: information, title

There are no reliable references for Prekmurians being a separate ethnic group. Therefore, it is factually incorrect and biased to include the infobox and to describe them as such. This amounts to original research. I know there was a theory about the Prekmurje Slovenes being Vends and a separate ethnic group pushed forward before the World War II, but it was quickly forgotten. The inhabitants of Prekmurje always considered them Slovenes. Sources: [1], [2] etc.

The article title is also biased; as it doesn't include the word Slovenes, it makes the impression that the Slovene-speaking inhabitants of Prekmurje are a separate ethnic group. My proposal is to move the article to Prekmurje Slovenes, in accordance with the name of the article about the dialect they speak, the Prekmurje dialect. --Eleassar ^{my talk} 13:06, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Moving it to Prekmurje Slovenes would be a good parallelism with the article Carinthian Slovenes. Another possibility, given the "notables" box at the top, would be to rename the article "List of people from Prekmurje" (like List of people from Trieste or List of people from Minnesota) and then slim it down to appropriate content. Other parts could be moved, as appropriate, to Wends (in need of expansion) or Wendish question (in need of cleanup), Prekmurje, etc. Doremo (talk) 14:06, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

The article is not POV, the MTA (Hungarian Scientific Academy) and the searchers: Smej, Novak, Zelko, Just, etc. also wrote about the Prekmurian identity. Doncsecz^talk 13:13, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

First, stop removing the template 'POV-title' before a discussion has taken its place. Second, every Slovenian region has its identity and stereotypes exist about people there. That doesn't make them non-Slovenes. I've provided two reliable sources attesting that the Slovene-speaking inhabitants of Prekmurje always considered them Slovenes and that the Vends theory was a quickly forgotten nationalistic POV-pushing by Hungarians. They may be directly verified. I ask you too to provide precise citations of the sources (online sources) so that they may too be verified by others. BTW, regarding your language skills, probably you could better contribute to the Hungarian Wikipedia as it is often impossible to understand what you wanted to say. --Eleassar ^{my talk} 00:38, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Vegaswikian (talk) 18:38, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

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Prekmurians → Prekmurje Slovenes — The title of the article is biased. As it doesn't include the word Slovenes, it makes the impression that the Slovene-speaking inhabitants of Prekmurje are a separate ethnic group. Which they are not, see above. My proposal is to move the article to Prekmurje Slovenes, in accordance with the name of the article about the dialect they speak, the Prekmurje dialect. --Eleassar ^{my talk} 00:41, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

I agree with the move for the reasons given by Eleassar. However, the article needs major revision because parts of it are unintelligible. I've been unable to effectively edit this (and related articles) because the edits have generally been undone by a single user without coherent discussion. Doremo (talk) 05:51, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

POV??

This is not POV, this is flummery. The contributor of the Museum Murska Sobota Franc Kuzmic, the prize-winner writers Evald Flisar and Feri Lainscek, searcher Vilko Novak likewise deputize to the identity of Prekmurje. The Slovene civilians alike approve of the identity of Prekmurje. Altogheter the Politicians is hostile. Doncsecz^talk 16:14, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Template

Banat Bulgarians, Mexicans, Argentinians, Austrians, and other also have template of ethnic groups, but this is Spanish, German or Bulgarian peoples. Eleasar on end delete this template and Flisar's oppinion but Evald Flisar is avowed writer, likewise Feri Lainšček. Doncsecz^talk 07:17, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

I've just removed Flisar's unbalanced opinion from the lead. Flisar is a respected author, but his opinion isn't a scholarly discourse and doesn't belong there, as it is only his belief. I removed the infobox after no scholarly references have been provided to confirm the Prekmurje Slovenes as an ethnic group. --Eleassar ^{my talk} 15:06, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

a 1921 source is actually reliable even in 2011? - This is absurd! The book Prekmurje 1921 from M. Slavic used also today, Franci Just among other from this book wrote his works about the Prekmurje. Slavic in this work respect the culture and language of Hungarian Slovenes, just as Anton Trstenjak and Bozidar Raic in the 19th century. Jesus Christ! This men was eminent politicians, writers and ethnographers. Doncsecz^talk 15:10, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Irregardless how highly respected was Slavič (and he was), the reference is too old and does not directly claim Prekmurje Slovenes as an ethnic group.[3] In fact, Slavič tried very hardly and successfully to show that Prekmurje Slovenes are a part of the Slovene nation, thereby claiming just the opposite of them being a separate ethnic group.[4] The Statistical Office of the Republic of Slovenia[5], which is a highly reliable source providing current information and using scientific methods and well thought out arguments, does not regard Prekmurje Slovenes as an ethnic group. The recognized minority group in Hungary is Slovenes, not Prekmurje Slovenes, Prekmurians or Wends, even if they live in the Prekmurje part of Hungary (for the extent of Prekmurje, see Prekmurje). Their union is called 'Union of Slovenes in Hungary'.[6] Neither Slovenia nor Hungary have recognized Prekmurje Slovenes as an ethnic group. It's interesting that the article by the Embassy of Slovenia in Budapest is titled 'Slovenians in Hungary' - this is probably a better way of phrasing, as it removes the note of them being something else than simply Slovenes. They just live in Hungary, as the Slovenes of Prekmurje live in Prekmurje. --Eleassar ^{my talk} 15:28, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

In short, please, provide sources that directly denote Slovenes in Prekmurje as a distinct ethnic group, that may be verified online by everyone without going to Murska Sobota (links please!), and that amount to more than just a personal opinion or an essay. Till then, I stick to the claim that Prekmurje Slovenes are not described as a distinct ethnic group in any modern official or scholarly publication. The sentences about them as an ethnic group and the infobox should be removed, as they amount simply to original research. Considering this, probably the article should be moved once more, to the title History of Slovenes in Prekmurje, and rewritten as such. --Eleassar ^{my talk} 19:27, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, but i was ill in the hospital. The ethnic group is not equal with the separate nation. The Szeklers/Székelys also in the hungarian sources magyar etnikai csoport/hungarian ethnic group, component of the Hungarians, but theirs identity is marked in the Hungarians. Outside Slavič, Ágoston Pável, significant, objective, learned selfhood so wrote in his works, for ex. in the Prekmurian Grammar, that the Prekmurians is special Slovene group, not separate nation, but marked people of the Slovenes. Doncsecz^talk 13:43, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

I've linked the word ethnic group so that the definition may be read by everyone. Now, please, provide a source that directly denotes Slovenes in Prekmurje as a distinct ethnic group, that may be verified online by everyone without going to Murska Sobota (links please!), and that amounts to more than just a personal opinion or an essay. Otherwise your writing is just bluff. --Eleassar ^{my talk} 21:14, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Whilst I agree that there must be a reliable source for the claim that they are an ethic group, it's not a requirement of Wikipedia:Reliable sources that the source must be online. The infobox currently says "Slovene etnic group of Prekmurje and Vendvidék". Probably because the English is faulty, I'm not sure that that actually amounts to a claim that the Prekmurje Slovenes are a separate ethnic group. It's more likely to be read as "that part of the Slovene ethnic group in Prekmurje", although I agree that may not have been Doncsecz's intention. In any event, following WP:BRD, I'm going to change it to "Prekmurje and Vendvidék Slovenes" as better English and potentially more acceptable to all editors. It recognizes the Prekmurje "identity" without claiming a separate ethnicity. Obviously if Doncsecz comes up with a source, then that can change. One last thing, the comment about moving it to History of Slovenes in Prekmurje is unnecessarily provocative. The current title is consistent with them not being a separate ethnic group. DeCausa (talk) 23:25, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Whilst making the changes to the infobox, I've realised that there was no need to make any reference to the ethnic group in that part of the infobox. It is for the total population number, which I've now added. DeCausa (talk) 23:33, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

It seems to me that Doncsecz is confusing the notion of local/regional/group identity (i.e., "we're proud to be from Prekmurje and it makes us special")—which is certainly present in Prekmurje, just like anywhere else in Slovenia at the regional or city/town/village level—with ethnicity; that is, the (unsupported) notion that "we in Prekmurje are not Hungarians, not Slovenes, not Germans, etc., but something distinct." Doremo (talk) 08:56, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

The it should be regional group of the Slovenes with specific identity, but in the hungarian definition an larger regional identity half ethnic identity for ex. in the Szeklerland and Csángóland. Doncsecz^talk 09:47, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Just to clarify what you are saying, do you mean they are Slovenes with a specific local identity? If so, I'm guessing the other editors wouldn't have a problem with that. As Doremo says, presumably other regions of Slovenia also have "Slovenes witha specific local identity". As for Hungary, they are ethnic minority there. Is that what you are trying to say? Sorry to be be blunt but could you just say yes or no because the language in your longer answers leave me a little confused. DeCausa (talk) 10:08, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

This article is gibberish!

Has this article been translated by an online translator? I can't understand 90% of it! DeCausa (talk) 17:01, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Your impression is shared by others as well, DeCausa. Unfortunately, a certain editor with limited English skills treats this article as his personal territory and frequently reverts constructive changes by other editors without engaging in consensus-building discussion. Doremo (talk) 11:18, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Oh yes - checked the history and I see what you mean! Well, you sort of have to admire his self-belief! But seriously, it really can't stay like this. Have the other regular editors tried AD/I if he won't cooperate? DeCausa (talk) 13:47, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

I tried WP:3O here: Talk:Prekmurje dialect for just a single term in a related article, but ultimately got nowhere. I think there are other editors willing to contribute to the article but they (and myself included) are probably reluctant to invest much effort if it just gets reverted without real discussion. Doremo (talk) 15:22, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

I was ask for help, but temporarily are not. But i lay down, Doremo be out after the deletion of the article, as at all costs discriminate the language and the people of Prekmurje, however is apparent the state of affairs, that the Prekmurje is not dinkey country in Slovenia, but Dorem thumb his nose at the Prekmurje. Doncsecz^talk 13:49, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

I don't mean this to be insulting, but I really can't understand your English. For instance, I don't really understand the message you left above for Doremo. The same is true of this article, I don't understand much of it either, and I believe you are responsible for much of the content. Please, your English is not good enough to be editing on English Wikipedia and I would suggest that you ask someone who has a better command of the language to make edits on your behalf. Thanks. DeCausa (talk) 14:50, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

I was asked again elsewhere. I hope this time succeed. Doncsecz^talk 16:02, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

English re-write

I've tried to re-write this Article in English. However, I couldn't even guess at what three sections were supposed to mean so I left those and just left a clean-up template against them. While doing this I reorganized the order to make it more logical. It's still a very poor article though. DeCausa (talk) 12:19, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

I re-wrote those three paragraphs, please check if it's intelligible now (I didn't want to remove the templates before a native English speaker checked the text). – Alensha ^talk 14:53, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. Very impresive - I don't know how you managed it! I've removed the templates (with just one or two tweaks). DeCausa (talk) 15:09, 3 March 2011 (UTC)