Talk:Politics of food in the Arab–Israeli conflict/Archive 1

Archive 1

Culture

@Valereee: Thanks for creating this article. Do we have one on cultural appropriation? Makeandtoss (talk) 18:38, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Cultural appropriation. Valereee (talk) 19:06, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

move

Supreme Deliciousness, I object to this move. The politicization is happening from more than one side. I don't object to a redirect from the Israeli appropriation title, but that isn't the whole story here, and in light of the entire story it isn't neutral. Please revert and let's discuss, per WP:RM#CM? I don't think there's any chance this would have been expected to be noncontroversial. Valereee (talk) 19:04, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

The move was uncontroversial as the "politicization" angle is not supported by RS; the cultural appropriation aspect actually is. Makeandtoss (talk) 19:30, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

It's controversial and worth discussing if someone objects. Many of the sources discuss the politicization as well as the accusations of appropriation. Valereee (talk) 19:34, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Does the scholarship operate at the level of calling these "accusations"? I'm aware of the more honest Israeli chefs, both on the page here, and more generally out there in the world, quite openly admitting the Palestinian origins of much of their most treasured dishes. This has been politicised two-fold: first in the efforts made by the early Israeli state to Hebrewize and de-Arabize its people and culture and exert prejudice towards Arabs (including Arab Jews) and Arabic culture, even while retaining Arabic cultural elements while denying their origins, and in so doing, falsely appropriating it; and secondly, with the rise of reactive politics against cultural appropriation, particularly of indigenous or minority culture, and the taking up of this banner by Palestinian activists. In both instances, however, the epicenter of the topic is very much the cultural appropriation. Isn't the politicisation, per se, more of a meta commentary on the actual topic of appropriation itself? Iskandar323 (talk) 03:01, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Iskander323, I'm not sure what you're asking when you say Does the scholarship operate at the level of calling these "accusations"?. Are you asking whether anyone is using the word 'accusation', or whether Wikipedia using it is calling it in WikiVoice something that downplays the reality, like when we use 'claim'? I have no attachment to that word, and I have no doubt that much of Israeli cuisine developed directly from adopting/appropriating dishes that had been part of various local cuisines as a way of creating a national cuisine.

I have zero fish to fry, here, other than to present this in a neutral fashion. And I think flat-out titling the article 'Israeli appropriation of' is not neutral. That is what one POV is calling it. Another POV is calling it an 'embrace', for heaven's sake, and that wouldn't be neutral either. Valereee (talk) 14:17, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I was asking if the scholarship uses the terminology of accusations. The framework of appropriation is relevant here because the dishes and foodstuffs that are under discussion are not credited as Arabic cuisine, but relabeled. If one were too compare this to, say, Tex-Mex in the US, I don't think we see the same level of issue taken with acknowledging it as a US version of Mexican food. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:54, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Oh, you'd see plenty of accusations of appropriation (sometimes literally downright stealing of recipes under false pretenses, or buying them for pennies, which quite likely also happened in the first half of the 20th century in Israel/Palestine, but which in the case of some Mexican/Tex-Mex foods was documented). Valereee (talk) 18:49, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

At a basic level "Middle Eastern" is a bit fast and loose, not least because dishes such as shakshouka are considered distinctively Maghrebi. Iskandar323 (talk) 02:46, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

The topic is entirely about the Israeli appropriation of Arab cuisine. Not "Politicization of Middle Eastern food" --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:36, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, the scope is fairly specific here. You could potentially have a parent article on wider Mediterranean bickering over food in former Ottoman sphere countries, including famous tiffs such as that of Algeria-Morocco and Turkey-Greece, but that wouldn't be just Middle Eastern any more. Iskandar323 (talk) 02:03, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

A move is controversial if somebody objects to it. If you want it at Israeli appropriation of Arab cuisine then open a request move for it, but Im moving it back in the meantime. nableezy - 17:04, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Nableezy, thanks. I am not in any way married to 'Policitization of', if that feels NPOV to others. If we can come up with something that feels reasonably neutral to everyone, I'm completely on board. Valereee (talk) 18:51, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

POV

Not sure if this was the intention or not, but the article seems to take a POV angle. It starts with a section that claims Jews just naturally adopted Arab cuisines, and then followed by a section how this was suddenly "politicized" by the Palestinians. This framing is not supported by RS, which mostly describe it as Israel's appropriation of Arab cuisine. Makeandtoss (talk) 19:32, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Definitely no intention to insert any POV. I wrote this during discussions at Falafel about how much emphasis an article about a food should place on how that food was being used politically. I do not think the sources mostly describe it as Israel's appropriation of Arab cuisine. They talk about a broader topic. Valereee (talk) 19:37, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

And it certainly does have a POV now, with that section header change. Valereee (talk) 19:43, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Virtually all the sources are about the Israeli appropriation of Arab cuisine. The title reflects all sources. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:38, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Many (not all) sources talk about that, but many also talk about the politics of the situation. The title you're proposing reflects only a single POV from sources that are discussing multiple. FWIW, the politicization is also not from one "side", and the sources reflect that, too. For instance, multiple sources discuss Israel using the development of a national cuisine to develop a national identity. That's politicization of food. It come from all directions. Valereee (talk) 22:41, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Regardless, the title now no longer matches the content. The current title could quite literally refer to any number of disputes about food in the region. It's highly non-specific to the topic apparent. It feels like the current title is simply avoiding stating the actual topic with any serious degree of precision. At bare minimum, it should be moved to "politicization", if we are to keep that, in the Arab-Israeli or Israeli-Palestinian conflict – the clear focal area. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:02, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

There are a few threads in this topic, so it's good to discuss it, but also wise not to be overly reductive. A lot of Arabic dishes in Israeli cuisine come by way of the Arab Jews that either migrated to Palestine or were already there. Some of these dishes might be generically Arabic, or generically former Ottoman sphere, or more specific to smaller regions or geographies. Hummus, for example, is Levantine. More specific dishes from, for example, Tunisia or Yemen, might be characterised as generally from those countries – and still be identified as such in Israel, as noted on the page – or, in some instances, might be specific to local Arab Jewish communities that emigrated from those countries, such as Tunisian Jews or Yemeni Jews – in such case they might just be termed Jewish/Israeli. There is then the very specific subset of dishes that can be considered to be absorbed from specifically Palestinian cuisine. With all of the above, where there is no acknowledgement of the non-Israeli origins of the dishes, the relationship with the food history is obviously appropriative. This is even true with Arab Jewish dishes from Tunisia and Yemen, because, even though much of these communities may now have been absorbed into Israel, any associated cuisine still has its own unique food history rooted in Arabic/regional culture. Iskandar323 (talk) 02:25, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Israeli couscous

I haven't checked the source cited for this line, but the relationship between maftoul and Israeli couscous isn't entirely straightforward. Maftoul is a dish made of hand-rolled couscous (also just called maftoul) prepared in a specific Palestinian way. Israeli couscous is also a name both dish and ingredient, but it is an exonym. In Israel it is just called ptitim, and it is a pasta, not couscous at all, which is a misnomer in this instance. Whether or not the preparation of ptitim as a dish then mimicks maftoul (the dish) and becomes appropriative I do not know, but if so, it needs to be clarified that this is the case to avoid the confusion with the actually distinct base ingredients here. Iskandar323 (talk) 02:39, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Iskander, the source says "A few years ago, I was incensed that an upscale, hip restaurant/bar I frequented in Manhattan’s Greenwich Village listed something they called “Israeli couscous” as their plat du jour. Appalled, I demanded that they change the name of the dish immediately. I explained to the manager that what they called “Israeli” couscous was actually Palestinian maftoul, traditionally made by hand.". Later in the piece Massad clarifies that the product he's talking about is pearl couscous, which as you say is different from maftoul both in ingredients, the technique, and the appearance of the finished product. And he doesn't seem to object to calling it pearl couscous, which he says is a more neutral term. So what he seems to be objecting to is calling it "Israeli"?

Could Massad possibly be just incorrect here, calling Israeli couscous an appropriated food? This is not outside his area of expertise, although I suppose it's possible even an expert on Middle East culture doesn't actually know the two items have completely different ingredients/methods/appearances, that Israeli couscous isn't actually couscous? Israeli couscous appears to be a food that was consciously developed by Israel as a poverty food in 1953. And one of the few foods that actually can be argued to have been created in Israel. But for some reason this is the anecdote he chose as the opener for his piece. I'm puzzled.

References

Valereee (talk) 12:35, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Hmm, I'm not 100% sure, but the only explanation that makes sense is that the dish was the maftoul with chicken (hence dish of the day, not a salad) but prepared with pearl couscous. I think both maftoul and ptitim can been prepared either as a main with chicken or as a salad. In this context, it would be the rebranding of the preparation that Massad is objecting to, even while acknowledging that the staple base has changed. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:24, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Ah, so a traditional Arab dish, prepared with pearl couscous and dubbed an Israeli dish. That makes sense. Valereee (talk) 15:36, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 11 August 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (non-admin closure) Aprilajune (talk) 02:55, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

---

Politicization of Middle Eastern food → Israeli appropriation of Arab cuisine – The entire topic of the article and all the sources are specifically about the Israeli appropriation of Arab cuisine. It is not about the general appropriation or politicization of food about other countries in the Middle East. It is not about Iran appropriating Jordanian food, or Oman appropriating Iraqi food, or Lebanon appropriating Algerian food. This article and its sources are solely and exclusively about the Israeli appropriation of Arab cuisine, so that's what the title should be Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:22, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

• Support move to Israeli appropriation of Arab cuisine per my argument above, entire article and all the sources are about the "Israeli appropriation of Arab cuisine", not a broader "Politicization of Middle Eastern food". --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:24, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Strong support given the plethora of RS discussing the topic in this aspect. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:30, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose, because the suggested usage of 'appropriation' is very contentious and suggests that Wikipedia is taking one side over others, which can lead us into POV territory. I would support changing it to 'Food politics in the Middle East', and ensure that the article includes more viewpoints and debates on other cultures. I am familiar with similar debates over food identities in other areas of the Middle East (though I am still unconvinced that we need this article at all). PeleYoetz (talk) 18:20, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

"suggests that Wikipedia is taking one side over others" ? The side of 100% of the sources and text in the article? Everything in the article is about the Israeli appropriation of Arab cuisine. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 05:40, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Why wouldn't we need it? Do you think the topic does not meet notability guidelines? ByVarying | talk 23:59, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

All the sources in the article and all the text is about the Israeli appropriation of Arab cuisine.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 05:40, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

SD, that is not true. Sources discuss the politicization. Valereee (talk) 00:08, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose Looks like a WP:POVTITLE. Hemiauchenia (talk) 02:34, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

How is it pov when all the sources in the article and all the text is about the Israeli appropriation of Arab cuisine? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 05:40, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Regardless of the weight of the sources, the suggested title is accusatory in an unencyclopedic way. ByVarying | talk 06:19, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

"Regardless of the weight of the sources" ? The sources are confirming that it is an Israeli appropriation of Arab cuisine. This article isn't about the entire Middle East, so it is the current name that is unencyclopedic . --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 06:26, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

They may be confirming that, but WP:NDESC, Avoid judgmental and non-neutral words [in titles]. ByVarying | talk 06:35, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose as both POV and NDESC and because there's more to this article than appropriation; there's also the politicization of the foods themselves. I don't object to moving this to something more neutral, but this isn't it. Maybe Arab dishes in Israeli cuisine? Valereee (talk) 12:15, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Why would we name it that way when we have RS saying that Israel's adoption of Arab dishes into its cuisine is appropraition? Makeandtoss (talk) 13:16, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

NDESC and POV. The fact RS are saying this doesn't mean that's everything they're saying/all there is to be said, and saying only one part of what's to be said is POV.

And would people please stop badgering this discussion with the same argument over and over? You've made it clear you think 'appropriation' is all there is to be said. Some editors disagree, think the topic is broader than that, and want to make sure we're using a neutral title. Valereee (talk) 14:34, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose. Clearly prohibited as POV and obviously is contrary to NDESC. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 14:39, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose - agree with Hemiauchenia. Maybe "Allegations of Appropriated Israeli Cuisine"? Many of the initial settlers of Israel from Middle East were Arab Jews who shared in much of the heritage, so the story of the cuisine is complicated. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 17:06, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

I do think the current title definitely is too vague. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 17:17, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

"Allegations" is specifically mentioned at NDESC. Maybe "Israel and Arab cuisine" or "Arab cuisine in Israel"? ByVarying | talk 20:45, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Food and drink, WikiProject Western Asia, and WikiProject Politics have been notified of this discussion. RodRabelo7 (talk) 18:45, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.