Talk:Phoenician joints

Phoenician joints has been listed as one of the Engineering and technology good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Review: June 15, 2021. (Reviewed version).

A fact from Phoenician joints appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 19 May 2021 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that the Romans copied the Phoenician joints technique from a Punic warship that ran aground in 264 BC?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2021/May. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Phoenician joints.

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Phoenicia Mid‑importance

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Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Kingsif (talk) 20:57, 10 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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Comment or view
Article history

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... that the Romans copied the Phoenician joints technique from a Punic warship that ran aground in 264 BC? Source: (Sleeswyk 1980, p. 244)
- ALT1:... that the Romans exploited the Phoenician joints to their advantage early in the First Punic War in 260 BC which allowed them to build a fleet of 100 warships within a period of two months? Source: (Sleeswyk 1980, p. 244)

Sleeswyk, A. W. (1980-08-01). "Phoenician joints, coagmenta punicana". International Journal of Nautical Archaeology. 9 (3): 243–244. doi:10.1111/j.1095-9270.1980.tb01303.x. ISSN 1057-2414.

Created by Elias Ziade (talk). Self-nominated at 06:03, 29 April 2021 (UTC).[reply]

It's long enough, new enough, no copyvio, hook is verified, images are properly licensed. If anything, this is a bit too long--much of it is more general than this topic might warrant, but hey. And if you're ever going for a GA, I'd move material out of the lead, cause that's a bit top-heavy. So I'll tick this off, Elias Ziade -- as soon as you do the QPQ. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 17:54, 29 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your time and effort Drmies, I will proceed with improving the article as I go before I submit it for GA. I reviewed Irma Toivanen _Elias Z. (talkallam) 09:00, 30 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, let's go. Drmies (talk) 14:13, 30 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You could have said: Did you know that if the loose tenons the Phoenicians used to build their ships with weren't tight, the ships would have sank? Billyshiverstick (talk) 16:27, 19 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Phoenician joints/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: RoySmith (talk · contribs) 17:03, 26 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'm starting this review now. My plan is to do two major passes through the article, first for prose, the second to verify the references and more technical aspects. In general, all my comments will be suggestions which you can accept or reject as you see fit.

Lead

Overall, I think you've put too much detail in the lead. For example, everything in the first paragraph from The peg merely holds the tenons tightly in the mortises could be moved into the main body. And the previous sentence, The assembly is then locked or "pinned" or "pegged" by driving dowels into holes drilled through both the mortise side wall and the tenon. could be just, "The assembly is then locked by driving dowels through the pieces".

I would aim to have the lead end up about half the current length. I'm reading this on a 15-inch laptop and the lead barely fits on the screen. I think you should be aiming for something that fits on a tablet. Please go through it and see if you can identify just the most critical parts. See MOS:LEADLENGTH.

Categorizing this as "a clever solution" is WP:OR unless you're citing a specific WP:RS which says that.

Sorry about that, it was an addition by another user shortly after the page appeared in DYK. I removed the unhelpful bits el.ziade (talkallam) 13:29, 1 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox

The picture is wonderful, but I would reduce the caption length. Maybe, "Phoenician joint with pegged mortise and tenon construction" and move all the details into the main body.

Done, thanks el.ziade (talkallam) 13:29, 1 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The last sentence is a bit oddly worded ("in real life"). The problem, as I understand it, is that the drawing appears to be showing the view from the outside of the hull due to the way the planks are curved, but the point you make about driving the pegs from the inside so as to not pierce the outer skin makes sense. This does need to be clarified, but I can't right now think of a good way to say that in a space that makes sense for an infobox caption.

Also added by an eager user. I removed the GF edits. el.ziade (talkallam) 13:29, 1 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Also, per WP:INFOBOXCITE, move the references in the infobox into the main body.

Done el.ziade (talkallam) 13:29, 1 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

History

"the Ancient Egyptians employed a joinery technique that is similar to the Phoenician joints technique" -> "the Ancient Egyptians employed a similar technique".

Done el.ziade (talkallam) 13:29, 1 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"unlocked mortise and tenon where tenons were used as coaks,", what is a "coak"? Is there a page you can link to? Also, just after that, add a link for "strake".

you're right, it is redundant. I linked "strake" and removed the WL from another instance below. el.ziade (talkallam) 13:29, 1 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"The ship's hull was built with Lebanese cedar and oak wood was used for the tenons." -> "The ship was built with Lebanese cedar, with oak tenons".

Done el.ziade (talkallam) 13:29, 1 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"The technique is also attested in Vietnam.", I would write this as, "... was also seen in Vietnam". Same comment for "attested in later ancient Egyptian ships" elsewhere.

Done el.ziade (talkallam) 13:29, 1 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Etymology

You mention the origin of the term "coagmenta punicana" in a number of places. I'd mention that once in the lead, then consolidate all the other information about the history of the term into the Etymology section.

I'm going to stop now and give you a chance to work through these suggestions. The biggest changes are going to be reworking the lead. I'll do another pass through the prose once you've got that done.

Done mate el.ziade (talkallam) 07:42, 15 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

On hold

@Elias Ziade: I haven't seen any response to my review, so I'm going to place this on hold. -- RoySmith (talk) 23:51, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@RoySmith: Hi Roy, thank you so much for your review. I have been very busy lately, but I will tend to your feedback now. el.ziade (talkallam) 13:29, 1 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Elias Ziade, Thanks. Overall, it's a pretty interesting article, so I'm happy to work with you to get it up to GA status. It caught my eye because it touches two of my personal interests: boats and wood working. -- RoySmith (talk) 13:37, 1 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Some additional thoughts

In the reworked lead:

"together with a tenon, a rectangular wooden knob" -> "together with a rectangular wooden tenon"

done

"secure in place" -> "secure"

done

wikilink to Phoenicia the first place it's used.

done

I'm a little confused about the second and third paragraphs of the lead. I think what you're trying to convey is a specific order of events, but that's not clear. Would something like the following (assuming the timeline I've got is actually correct) work instead?

The Phoenicians pioneered this type of joinery during the XXX century in the Levantine littoral region. From there, it spread westward into what is now Turkey, where it is seen in the Uluburun shipwreck (14th century BC) and the Cape Gelidonya ship (c. 1200 BC). By the first millenium BC, it had reached Greece, and Rome in the third century BC.

I am only leaving a comment here, will address all the rest later @RoySmith:. I like the way you put the passage together however this would be misleading IMO. It is presumptive to jump to a conclusion that the technique jumped westward in this geographical order without historical proof. I will review the passage, but I don't think I won't make this assumption. el.ziade (talkallam) 11:13, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Elias Ziade, Sounds good. I agree that we should get the facts correct first, and then work on the details of the phrasing. -- RoySmith (talk) 16:22, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That would hit all the essential high points, and the rest of the detail could be left for the main text.

It would be really nice if there was a map showing all the various places this type of joinery has been found, with each site labeled with the date. That would really help show how this technology spread. The folks at Wikipedia:Graphics Lab/Map workshop could help with that. Not a blocker for this reaching GA, just a suggestion for future improvements.

Great idea! el.ziade (talkallam) 11:13, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

on second thought this will require some research which I don't have for el.ziade (talkallam) 07:44, 13 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

In history, The first three paragraphs are all single sentences, which makes for choppy reading. Try combining them into a single paragraph.

Done el.ziade (talkallam) 08:51, 13 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"Early Phoenician/Canaanite", don't capitalize "Early".

done

I'm not seeing any problems with WP:V, WP:NPOV or WP:CP. The breadth of coverage seems fine.

The images are all appropriately licensed, but I'm not sure File:Monuments of Niniveh - Plate 71 - Heidelberg.jpg and File:PhoenicianCoin2A.png really add anything to the article. They illustrate that the phoenicians had ships, but don't help understanding this type of joinery.

Good point. el.ziade (talkallam) 11:13, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Elias Ziade, This has been on hold for about a week and a half. I'd like to wrap this up soon. Could you work through my last set of comments in the next few days? -- RoySmith (talk) 17:38, 10 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

RoySmith really sorry for the delay. I am switching jobs and I'm a bit OVERWHELMED. I'LL do my best to finish ASAPel.ziade (talkallam) 07:18, 13 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Elias Ziade, If you need more time, I'm happy to leave this on hold for a bit longer. Would 10 days (June 23) work? I just don't want to leave this open ended. -- RoySmith (talk) 14:03, 13 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

RoySmith I believe I got everything covered. Sorry again for the delay. Please let me know if there's anything else I can do to improve the article. el.ziade (talkallam) 07:45, 15 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Elias Ziade, OK, thanks. I'm going to mark this as passed GA review. If you get more time at some point in the future, I really encourage you to come back and work on some sort of graphical representation of how the technology spread from Phoenicia to other civilizations over time. I think that would really help the reader understand the history. -- RoySmith (talk) 13:34, 15 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks a lot RoySmith. el.ziade (talkallam) 06:12, 16 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

10 days are more than enough budyy. Thanks el.ziade (talkallam) 04:52, 14 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Wiki Education assignment: The Phoenicians - Cunning Seafarers

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 24 January 2024 and 15 May 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Cunningseafarer22 (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Cunningseafarer22 (talk) 16:30, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]