Talk:Phi Gamma Delta/Archive 1

Archive 1

Restrictions on Lettering

The article states the FIJI is the only fraternity that limits the use of its letters. This is not true. Chi Psi, for example, limits public exhibition of its letters (which is why it is referred to as "The Lodge" at most universities, instead of by its letters)--Velvet elvis81 20:52, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Okay, but is Chi Psi actually required to limit the usage of their letters by international by-laws? Several fraternities actually have terms for their organization that are more used then their actual letters for one reason or another, but I'm still under the impression that Fiji's the only one that specifically has it written down that the usage of our letters is prohibited to certain locations. RPH 21:33, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I would imagine that most fraternities that do limit it do so by tradition, not through any written code. But the article states that FIJI's limits are based on tradition. If there is some written bylaw, then change the article to reflect that. That said, the bylaw vs. tradition seems to me a dubious differentiation--a distinction w/o a difference. I think info about limiting the letters is article-worthy, but I don't think we should put that FIJI's the only one to do it. --Velvet elvis81 10:00, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I went ahead and edited the use of letters section since no one responded. If you think it would be more appropriate to say it's the only one to do it through bylaws instead of saying it's one of the few to limit the use, feel free.--Velvet elvis81 23:17, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I did exactly that. Also the Greek letters for the chapter designation can be used anywhere and I clarified the language to avoid any ambiguity. The fraternity's international bylaws prevent the members from using Phi Gamma Delta but not other fraternity related Greek letters or slogans. Ekspiulo 06:47, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I added a tradition of getting a tattoo on the inside of the right ankle> my chapter used to do this though it was not official policy and in fact, frowned upon, but I thought it was relevant to the discussion. Mywikieditor2007 18:26, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I’m new to this so I hope I am putting this in the right place. My fraternity brother brought back with him from Old Miss a sticker for his car with the letters. He told us that at this University they use the letters on everything even shirts. Maybe this should be noted.

Complete List of all Chapters?

• The edits done by 149.149.150.56 made me consider the possibility of listing by time of foundation all the currently active Fiji Chapters in the United States and Canada. As there are over 100 such chapters (and colonies), I realize that this would be a difficult task, yet I believe that this change would improve the quality of the article greatly. As it is though, I'll just add the DePauw Chapter to it and make changes as the time becomes available. RPH 20:53, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Actual greek letters

I know that FIJI only allows its members to use their greek letters in seven places. Wikipedia is not a member of Phi Gamma Delta and there are no legal measures to protect the use of your letters here. We are legally allowed to report on the facts. I have placed the actual greek letters on in the article, phi gamma delta. This is not the first time I have done this, my user page has been vandalized twice by what I assume to be a FIJI member because I put your greek letters on wikipedia. This is not going away. There is much wikipedia precident that all relavent content be placed on wikipedia, just look for pictures of Mohammed. In the interest of conformaty, you cannot avoid this. --metta, The Sunborn 18:42, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

While I was one of the people that disagreed with the idea of putting the actual Greek letters in the article in the past, I am more inclined to agree with your point of view in this regard. However, that article should make mention that Fijis (such as myself) are limited by tradition from placing their Greek letters in more than six locations. I'll make such an edit to the article shortly. RPH 04:35, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I've put the Greek letters back, not least because the editor who removed them messed up the formatting of the Infobox! Before anyone says it: yes, I am a complete outsider (I'm not even American), but actually that's the point: Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a community resource, and should not be biased towards (or against) a specific group's wishes, however important to them personally. There are apparently no legal restrictions on the use of these Greek letters here, nor are there any privacy concerns, so they should stay.

Sunborn makes an excellent point about precedent: we have pictures of Mohammed, and I think that's right, despite it being something which millions of Muslims object to in principle. That being so, it just looks silly for a fraternity, no matter how strongly held its members' feelings, to be given special treatment. I think RPH above has found the most sensible solution: to retain the Greek letters, but to include a prominent explanation of the convention in the main text.

Finally, I'll not that the intro to this article seems overly long and rather POV in places ("For over 158 years, the Phi Gams have lived by their values of Friendship, Knowledge, Service, Morality, and Excellence" reads as though it were taken from an advertising flyer), but I'm not doing anything about that as I don't have the required knowledge. The only edit I've made is to the letters, as explained above. Loganberry (Talk) 23:36, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

I will address two points: Use of the greek letters, and content of the page overall. Yes, the comment about "158 years of blah blah blah" may sound like an advertisement, but it is essentially true. The values of the Fraternity are indeed Friendship, Knowledge, Service, Morality, and Excellence, the fraternity has existed for over 158 years now, and those values are pretty much the same now as they were at the inception of the fraternity. Now, more importantly - use of the greek letters on the Wikipage for FIJI. The greek letters are not what we use in order to be recognized, nor do we use them as our name officially in any capacity. The official name of the fraternity is "The Fraternity of Phi Gamma Delta, Inc." For purposes of identification, we use "FIJI," "Phi Gam," and "Phi Gamma Delta." Outside of the seven places mentioned in the article, we NEVER use or mention our letters. Our jerseys read "FIJI." And though the chapter house will almost always have the greek letters on display, they also tend to have "FIJI" or "Phi Gamma Delta" in a similarly elegant and obvious place, because for the most part when people see the greek letters they do not recognize what fraternity it is, and only when they read the letters one by one do they (maybe) then say, "Oh... FIJI." I do not think putting the greek letters helps in any way, and actually would suggest that for the purposes of people seeing what our letters look like, maybe we could include pictures of the flag and badge, for instance. What I don't agree with is the assertion that all fraternity greek letters are up. FarmHouse, for instance, doesn't HAVE greek letters (publicly, at least). Oxfordcomma (Talk) 18:24, 18 May 2006 (EST)

for the NPOV stance of wikipedia, "158 years of blah blah blah" may sound like an advertisement, but it is essentially true. if something is true, then it can be sourced. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia that doesn't operate on heresay.

As for the letters, as long as the fraternity house has them, the world sees these greek letters as a symbol of the fraternity. All fraternities accord a symbolism to their letters and that is why the infobox has a slot for it.

However, that said, I have created a phi gamma flag, and placed it in the position of the letters in the infobox. this should solve the problem.--metta, The Sunborn 23:18, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Replying to both of you... firstly, the flag solution seems reasonable, and actually I think it's rather an elegant solution; I like it. The letters are clear, but on the flag, which according to the article is one of the "allowed" locations for said letters, so hopefully all sides will now be satisfied. Secondly, though, the "158 years of..." section is a claim, not a verifiable fact. It may very well be "essentially true", but that is not enough in itself for an article on Wikipedia, where a a neutral point of view is a non-negotiable (Jimbo Wales' word [1]) requirement.

I'm not going to do any more editing on this article, however. As I said in my previous comment, I'm not knowledgeable enough about this fraternity, or indeed about the whole culture. After all, the fraternity/sorority system is essentially non-existent in UK universities. (Google testing for "university fraternity" gives 35,200, but adding "site:uk" reduces that to just 40, of which none at all refer to an actual UK-based fraternity... because they don't exist!) I just happened to stop by one day and felt it might be useful to have an outsider's perspective. Loganberry (Talk) 00:32, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

The Greek Letters for FIJI are legally trademarked. Thus, the fraternity's wishes over this issue should be met. Nevertheless, the current solution with the flag is a great way to resolve the issue.152.1.159.146 17:47, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

i agree, an elegant solution.Mywikieditor2007 18:29, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree as well. FIJI is allowed to respect their organization's wishes, and we should honors theirs as well. The flag is a great idea. Jmlk17 21:01, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I want to add a reference in the article to the above discussion. It provides a good concrete example of the use/non-use issues of the fraternity's letters. Any objections? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.68.242.6 (talk) 15:16, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Meaning of "FIJI"

Obviously Fiji is an island and the fraternity sponsors "island"-themed events. However, I doubt that the alternate name FIJI was used from the inception of the fraternity. The article needs to be stated when "FIJI" began to be used and for what reason. Also, it needs to be stated exactly when in the fraternity's history the use of the Greek letters was limited. Badagnani 08:32, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I added partial information about the nickname. However I cannot find any sources that tell exactly how New York University came up with the nickname so I have not posted an origin to that.

FIJI is a shortened version of the Fraternity's full name. "Fee Gamma Delta(Phonetic)" is shortened to Fee-Gee (FIJI). The pronunciation of the greek letter 'Phi' has changed from "Fee" to "F-eye" in the American lexicon making the derivation of the FIJI nickname less obvious.152.1.159.146 17:47, 12 March 2007 (UTC) --Savagemonitor 01:06, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:FIJIcrest.png

Image:FIJIcrest.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 06:12, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Phi Gamma Deltas in the Olympics

I'm trying to compile a list of all members of Phi Gamma Delta who have won at least one Olympic medal. As a (relatively) new user, and first-time contributor, I hope I'm doing this right. I have played in the "sandbox" and I know enough to be dangerous! PGD48 02:43, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Improving this article

Would it be a good idea to move the lists to another page (in the same manner as the Olympic Medalists page)? PGD48 03:47, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Substantial changes

I have just made some substantial changes to the site and I'm looking for feedback. Does anyone have any comments on or suggestions for the result?

In keeping with my understanding of Wikipedia's format, I will move the most of the lists to a different page. Only a very few "very famous Fijis" will be on the main page. The rest will be on a "List of Famous Phi Gams" page. PGD48 01:57, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Request tag removal

Request that the "This article does not cite any references or sources" tag be removed from this article. PGD48 14:30, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

You can remove it at any time. Just please be sure that the tag no longer applies in the article. Jmlk17 23:34, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

True, but I would prefer to have whoever put it there remove it. This article obviously didn't meet someone's standard of "verifiable" but I'm not certain whether it meets their standard now or not. I think it does because it does cite sources. It's certainly better than it was. If no one removes the tag in the near future I'll probably do it (and increase the article to a "B" quality grade while I'm at it). Cheers!PGD48 23:31, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Sounds good. Not sure who put it up though. Jmlk17 23:39, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Famous alumni

I understand the importance of famous alumni, but this seems like overkill. Why is there a full paragraph in the opening about various famous alumni stats? It's important but it shouldn't be in the opening of the article. Perhaps further down. Fiji is not characterized by famous alumni. Also, why is there a small list of "very famous Fijis" on this list and then another list on another page? They should all be included on the same page because "very famous Fijis" is subjective. 71.106.154.171 06:08, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the input. Point taken about the opening paragraph. I'll move it further down. The purpose of the small "very famous Fijis" list is to not overdo the list on the main page. It was much larger not too long ago. As you can see by the official Phi Gamma Delta websites [(http://www.phigam.org/history/Lists/historic_lists.htm) and (http://www.phigam.org/famousFijis.aspx?pageid=95)], quite a lot of research has been done to create lists of many types. These lists served as bases for some of the lists on the Wiki article. Having the condensed version, so to speak, of Famous Fijis on the main Wiki page seemed like the way to go. I notice that many of the Wiki pages of other large fraternities have lists of about that length in their main pages, so Phi Gamma Delta's "quota" of names on the main page is roughly middle-of-the-pack. And I would also say that a "famous members" list for any fraternity would be just as subjective. Does anyone else agree/disagree with having a "very famous" list on the main page?PGD48 00:39, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Phi Gamma Delta material

As a proud Phi Gam, I wish to only see information on Wikipedia that is factual and within the bounds set forth by the Fraternity of Phi Gamma Delta. That said, I have (recently) contacted the International Headquarters of Phi Gamma Delta about the content of some of the articles here and it is the opinion of IHQ that none of the material was contrary to Phi Gamma Delta's internal policies.

If you're a Fiji and would like to discuss this matter further, this would be one place to do so. Another possibility would be for you to contact IHQ directly and express your concerns. We all want the Phi Gamma Delta articles/information to be as accurate and appropriate as possible so I encourage you to do what you think is right.

Perge! PGD48 (talk) 04:18, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

As a proud FIJI, I have mixed feelings about the content revealed in this article. While I'm not sure who originally compiled it, it does cite the Purple Pilgrim, a book which by many standards if I am not mistaken is to be kept secret. If I am mistaken, correct me, but if not would this be grounds to propose for the removal of this article or would action need to be taken through IHQ?

Damn Proud. -J : March 03, 2008 1:46AM (CST| GMT-6) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.137.220.206 (talk) 07:46, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

As far as the content revealed, all of it can be found on phigam.org which is hardly a secret. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dpuaji (talk • contribs) 19:52, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

J and Dpuaji, First of all I thank you both for your concern about the content here. Second, I have asked for (and received) written assurances from IHQ that the content displayed today (March 19, 2008) on these Fiji Wikipedia pages is fully acceptable. In fact, IHQ say they are "happy" to see it there. Also per IHQ, the information in the Purple Pilgrim is not secret. PGD48 (talk) 02:56, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

I am proud to be a FIJI! Though I respect IHQs decision to "ok" this page, I'm pretty pissed at it's presentation and complete disregard for our traditions. Wikipedia is suppose to be an encyclopedia. This site should be void of personal opinions or inferences. This article not only mocks FIJI, but also Wikipedia. It lacks citing, is packed with first person opinions, and inaccurately portrays FIJI. Additionally, it never even acknowledges the true purpose of our organization. I am fine with someone writing about my fraternity online, and I am excited that someone has the interest to do so. However, this article was not given the time or consideration necesssary for ANY article on Wikipedia. PERGE! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.176.20.183 (talk) 01:51, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

There will always be vandals who put out misinformation on a particular subject, but the majority of the editors here strive for accuracy. What is the article specifically missing? Is there anything you can add to improve the article? Samwisep86 (talk) 03:39, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure I fully understand all of your complaints. For example, I count 44 references/citations on the bottom of the main page. And I don't see how Fiji is being "mocked" or "inaccurately" portrayed. That said, every legitimate Wikipedia user has the ability (and responsibility?) to improve these articles. Many contributors have added/changed article contents. What should the Fiji articles on Wikipedia look like? What would you like to see added, modified or deleted? Perge!PGD48 (talk) 13:01, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

"one of the few"?

"Phi Gamma Delta is one of the few Greek-letter organizations in North America to limit the written display of its Greek letters." To me this indicates that there are other groups that limit the written display, but there is no sign of that in the reference. I would like to see it changed unless there is some way to reference other North American GLOs that do that. Naraht (talk) 13:21, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Naraht, A quick internet search didn't turn up anything so I'll change the text to read "Phi Gamma Delta limits the written dislay of its Greek letters". Thank you for your input. PGD48 (talk) 03:09, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

No problem.Naraht (talk) 10:13, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Removal of Greek letters

Wikipedia is not a member of the fraternity and so any "restrictions" on displaying the letters do not apply here. As other fraternity/sorority articles include the actual Greek letters (and not just pictures of them), so should this one. Unless there is some compelling reason not to include them (accompanied by an actual reliable source that verifies it), removal of letters could be seen as vandalism. ... discospinster _talk 21:50, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Read the section "Actual greek letters" for discussion on this subject. Other editors have already discussed this situation and come to a conclusion. Their discussion boiled down to that the letters are trademarked and therefore we should honor the fraternities wishes. RickyCourtney (talk) 00:53, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Many words and phrases on Wikipedia are trademarked, and that doesn't make a difference whether they are displayed or not. There is no specific legal restriction on encylopedias displaying the actual Greek letters of the organization. Besides, I searched the U.S. Trademark Database and could not find an entry for the Greek letters "ΦΓΔ", only for the English transliteration of "Phi Gamma Delta". If anyone knows where a trademark decision for "ΦΓΔ" resides, please post the serial number here. ... discospinster _talk 21:08, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

As a member of this fraternity I do not feel that I am able to give a neutral argument in the matter. If you wish to discuss this with other editors you may and I think that may be the best way to come to an consensus in this matter. But I would pose this to you... you said that the letters should stay "Unless there is some compelling reason not to include them..." How about this reason... the fraternity has a tradition of not displaying their letters in a written form, Wikipedia in my experience tends to respect people and groups traditions and wishes... why not respect ours? I always thought the flag was an elegant solution to show people our letters while still respecting our traditions... just my 2 cents. RickyCourtney (talk) 09:57, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

As RickyCourtney already alluded to, this discussion was already resolved by several editors in Talk:Phi_Gamma_Delta#Actual_greek_letters. Why is the issue being raised again? DaveClapper (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 23:36, 12 January 2009 (UTC).

Greek letters, redux

Although the fraternity might have by- laws that limit the use of the Greek letters by its own members, Wikipedia is not subject to these by-laws. Even though the letters ΦΓΔ may be trademarked, this does not preclude the fair use of the letters in order to describe the product (or in this case, the organization). ... discospinster _talk 02:50, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

I should add that the previous solution was to use an image of a flag with the letters on it, but that image was deleted. It does not make any difference, however, since Wikipedia is not censored and does not alter its content based on the "reverence" of any particular group. (See, for example, Muhammad cartoon or the use of "God" instead of "G-d" in the article on Judaism.) Blanking the content will not solve the issue. Also, changing the content of others' talk page messages is a very bad idea. ... discospinster _talk 03:46, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

If anyone wants to weigh in on this subject in a wider forum, I've started a discussion at Wikipedia:Content noticeboard#Ongoing issue about use of trademark at Phi Gamma Delta. ... discospinster _talk 04:00, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

RfC: Inclusion of Greek letters

There has been an ongoing conflict regarding the use of the Greek letters ΦΓΔ in the article about the fraternity Phi Gamma Delta. Some editors (ostensibly members of the fraternity) claim that since the letters ΦΓΔ are trademarked, and since fraternity rules only allow their display at certain places, that the Wikipedia article (or even its talk page) must not include the Greek letters. On the other side of the table is the argument that even in the face of a trademark, the doctrine of fair use allows Wikipedia to display the letters as an encyclopedic fact, and any "reverence" held by the fraternity members towards the letters is not shared by Wikipedia and so has no relevance.

This has generated edit wars in the past, and will probably do so in the future, so I think there needs to be a wider discussion to put this to bed once and for all.

Prior discussions can be found on the talk page:

• Talk:Phi Gamma Delta#Restrictions on Lettering
• Talk:Phi Gamma Delta#Actual greek letters
• Talk:Phi Gamma Delta#Removal of Greek letters
• Talk:Phi Gamma Delta#Greek letters, redux

... discospinster _talk 04:08, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

the notion that wikipedia can not use those three characters next to each other doesnt pass the laugh test. it's absurd... the material should be included, and the article protected if necessary. badmachine (talk) 03:53, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Indeed. One cannot copyright mere letters, and the trademark won't matter a lick unless we're claiming to be the fraternity, which is absurd. – Luna Santin (talk) 15:38, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Agree, absurd claims indeed. Wikipedia is not a member of the fraternity, so clearly cannot be bound by its rules. There is no property in "ΦΓΔ" that can be copyrighted. Trademarks are only infringed if we are competing in the same market. Now let's end this ridiculous discussion. OrangeDog (τ • ε) 23:49, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Keep the letters Even if this particular 3-letter combo is trademarked, this is fair use. Thundermaker (talk) 18:24, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Why is this being brought up again?? I'm always confused as to why we need to bring this issue up every 3 months when it seems that we already had a good solution in place. I always thought the flag was an elegant solution to show people our letters while still respecting our traditions.

Again, as a member of the fraternity I am unable to stay neutral. I also respect Wikipedia and refuse to engage in an edit war. But I wish to give my opinion again, Phi Gamma Delta has a tradition of not displaying their letters in a written form, Wikipedia in my experience tends to respect people and groups traditions and wishes. So why not respect ours?

The other solution is... why not just get rid of the letters? Are they really THAT necessary? I think the article would be fine without them. RickyCourtney (talk) 22:52, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Nothing on Wikipedia is necessary. However, the preferences of a small group do not dictate the content of articles. The reason the issue keeps coming up is that members of the fraternity continue to remove the Greek letters from the article. If they stopped doing that, we wouldn't need to have the discussion. ... discospinster _talk 03:43, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia does not make editorial decisions solely to respect traditions. On other pages, it displays images of Muhammad forbidden in some branches of Islam, it has naked photos of humans, and it mentions many (verifiable) facts about issues that governments and corporations would rather keep quiet. The letters are not crucial to the article, but our standard is to show them, and as long as they aren't violating copyright or slandering a living person, Wikipedia tries to stick to standards. Making our pages conform to the bylaws of its subjects would set a very dangerous precedent. If no one from your organization can write the letters, then someone from outside will have to do it instead. —Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 03:59, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Actual greek letters (April-May 2010)

Do you guys think the letters aren't on the IHQ site for no reason? First of all, our bylaws are secret, so I hope none of you are dumb enough to post them on here. Second of all, tradition, bylaw, whatever, the fact of the matter is that there are only a certain number of official places the letters can be displayed. This display is wholly disrespectful to our fraternity, and I will keep editing them EVERY day until you understand that concept. So NYCRuss, who made you king of all nazis to decide where MY fraternity's letter may or may not be placed?? Here is an idea, you stick to monitoring your own fraternity's page and leave our's alone. How's that for a discussion? Have fun changing the letters back 800x day. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.112.220.197 (talk 23:35, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Everything in this section leads me to believe that posting a picture of the official flag containing the greek letters was an acceptable compromise by all parties. Unfortunately, an editor has unilaterally decided to throw this solution out and continues on his campaign of pasting the letters on the page. Any attempts to correct his arrogance have lead to threats of banning due to "vandalism". It is unfortunate that a resource such as Wikipedia can be so easily manipulated and abused by people who clearly have nothing better to do with their time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.119.29.144 (talk) 00:15, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

For the record, NYCRuss' actions are not unilateral. Wikipedia's consensus policy on censorship, which you can read at WP:CENSORED is based on years of discussion from countless editors. When your block has expired, you can go to WT:NOT to propose that we change the rule or WP:VP/PR to start a general discussion about it. If the consensus agrees with your proposal, we'll change the rule or make an exception for fraternity bylaws, and you can then remove the letters. However, I must warn you now it probably won't get far—Muslim people who don't want us to show images of the profit Muhammad have been trying for ages. —Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 00:25, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

So they're secret, but everyone in the world still has to follow them? Nonsense. OrangeDog (τ • ε) 12:39, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Based on the line "you stick to monitoring your own fraternity's page", I think the anonymous users expect this page to only be edited by members of the fraternity who would know not to use the letters. If this is the case, they should probably also read our policies on WP:Conflict of interest and WP:Ownership of articles. —Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 16:27, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

The Greek letters will stay on the article, that's pretty much settled. If they are removed, they will be placed back. Vandals will be blocked, and the page can be protected. Editors such as our friend 98.112.220.197 up there will simply need to deal with their anger on the issue. ... discospinster _talk 01:14, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

I'd like protection to be a last resort, to be used only if the vandals start IP hopping. This type of close-to-home article is where a lot of potential users make their first edits, and I'd like to avoid scaring them off with a protection tag. --—Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 01:19, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

One quick comment on usage. ΦΓΔ as the letters is used both in the article on Phi Gamma Delta in the most recent (1991) Baird's Manual of American College Fraternities *and* on the North-American Interfraternity Council (NIC) webpage listing their members (http://www.nicindy.org/about). Now there is a single space separating each of the letters on the NIC webpage, however I would be *very* surprised if that had anything to do with Phi Gamma Delta.(some letter combinations look crowded without the space). Having Wikipedia held to a higher standard by Phi Gamma Delta members than Baird's and the NIC is just, IMO, wierd.Naraht (talk) 14:06, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

"FIJI" should be considered their letters

"Letters" in greek life usage often refers to what appears on the shirts of members of the fraternity. When one is wearing letters that is the shirt of the fraternity. Brothers of Phi Gamma Delta wear shirts with "FIJI" on it, and therefore "FIJI" should be considered their letters. This information should be changed not because it is the policy of the fraternity but because it is incorrect. Also, the uses by bairds and NIC were probably mistakes made by editors, this is common and often corrected to actually display the Letters of FIJI. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.113.237.210 (talk) 00:47, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

If the NIC website is displaying incorrect information about Phi Gamma Delta, then that can easily be changed. Someone from Fiji staff just has to pick up a phone, call the NIC, and it will be changed. If they don't, then that suggests that Phi Gamma Delta is consenting to what is displayed on the NIC site. NYCRuss ☎ 00:53, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

The letters are also displayed on the fraternity's flag, as can be seen on the official web page here. So obviously it is not a mortal sin to display the letters, even by fraternity members. ... discospinster _talk 01:01, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Neither of these responses refutes the argument that the information is incorrect. I was not under the impression that wikipedia has a policy of displaying incorrect information, even if that information appears on other websites. If this is the case there is a multitude of "information" that needs to be added to many articles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.113.237.210 (talk) 01:03, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

I don't see any evidence that the information is incorrect. The frat members may choose not to display the letters outside of specific areas, but that does not change what the letters are. --Onorem♠Dil 01:07, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

"Letters" as being defined the short representation of the organization, which I believe is the intended case would be "FIJI". The Greek letters Phi Gamma Delta are not representative of the Fraternity of Phi Gamma Delta, which uses the term "FIJI" for representation. Other organizations are not symbolized by nicknames or shortenings that are not symbolic of them or used by them. FIJI should not be an exception. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.113.237.210 (talk) 01:19, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

If you want Wikipedia to prohibit the display of your letters, you'll need to take your FIJI hat off and put a Wikipedia hat on. You need to construct an argument that makes the case that not displaying the Phi Gamma Delta letters makes Wikipedia a better encyclopedia. From where I sit, as long as nicindy/about is displaying your letters, your position lacks credibility. NYCRuss ☎ 01:16, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

I agree that FIJI is more common than ΦΓΔ the Greek letters. However, the way I understand the info box on this page is that the "letters" parameter imediately below the English name is meant to display the letters of the name. Since phi, gamma, and delta are, in fact, Greek letters, the "letters" part of the infobox is the right place to show them. The name FIJI is a nickname, albeit a very common one, so it should go in the "nickname" part of the infobox. Maybe it would be good idea to move the "nickname" part of the infobox to a more prominent place near the top so that the name FIJI would get better exposure. —Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 01:14, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

I agree that phi, gamma, delta are Greek letters. However, as they are already shown in an article titles "Greek alphabet" I don't see why they should appear on an article about FIJI. Perhaps "Letters" should be taken away from the article, as they are not applicable to the Fraternity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.113.237.210 (talk) 01:31, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

They are not applicable to the fraternity? What's on your official badge? --Onorem♠Dil 01:38, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

If they are not applicable to the fraternity, then the fraternity wouldn't show them on their own website and on their houses. By the fraternity's own usage, they seem to be official and applicable. —Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 01:40, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

I fail to see where the letters appear on the website, other than in images of items containing the letters Phi Gamma Delta. If you read the wikipedia article, these letters are placed on these items by brothers, but it does not say that they are representative of the fraternity itself. The letters "Alpha Omega Mu Eta" also appear on the badge, but are also not the "letters" for the Phi Gamma Delta. I have no issue with the display of images of any of these items, as they are representative of the Fraternity. The typed letters are not recognized by the Fraternity as representative of itself, and shouldn't the Fraternity be the primary source for this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.113.237.210 (talk) 01:50, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

For an analogy, a red stripe in not representative of the United States of America, but the Flag which contains red stripes is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.113.237.210 (talk) 01:54, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

What Onorem and I are saying is that if the fraternity uses the letters on their houses and their badges, then it must feel that the letters are representative of the fraternity. Your initial argument was that the letters themselves were wrong and we should change them for accuracy; but if the Greek letters were wrong, then the badges and houses would say "FIJI" on them. —Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 02:00, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

I think it's an assumption that the letters on badges and houses are representative of the fraternity, and not based on citation. Where on the phigam website does it say that those letters are representative of the Fraternity? The Fraternity conveniently provides "Letters" worn by all members and those are "FIJI". Thank you for reading and considering the arguments made; I think resolving this issue is important. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.113.237.210 (talk) 02:07, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

If the official letters vary by situation, would it be more accurate for the infobox to say: (ΦΓΔ in official uses—FIJI in informal uses). I could agree with a proposal like that if it's more accurate than the current version, although some editors may bemoan the fraternity infoboxes no longer having a standardized layout. —Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 02:17, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding. The Greek letters Phi Gamma Delta placed together do no symbolize the fraternity of Phi Gamma Delta, even though they appear on images associated with the chapter. I think the description of the use of the letters within the article is accurate, and sufficient for mention of the use of the Greek letters "phi gamma delta". At this point I will submit to the judgment of the admins, as I think I have made my argument as clear as possible. Thank you for keeping an open mind about this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.113.237.210 (talk) 02:30, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

I guess we won't see eye-to-eye on wether the letters are representative; for me, use on the houses and badges is enough evidence that they are. Using your flag analogy above, it's like FIJI is the stars and stripes that everyone uses all the time, and the Greek letters are the official Great Seal of the United States, which is only used in certain places but still represents the country. If you have any suggestions on how to make the distinction more clear, feel free to bring them up here or edit the article after the protection ends. —Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 02:40, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Use on talk page

In response to User:Arctic.gnome's use of the letters in the above thread

Displaying the Phi Gamma Delta letters on the talk page is like pouring salt on a wound. NYCRuss ☎ 01:16, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure what this contributes to the argument other than to be antagonistic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.113.237.210 (talk) 01:23, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

The bylaw specifically says that it applies only to members and chapters of the fraternity. If we were discussing the use of nude photos or curse words, I could understand using something like f--- on the talk page, but using something like Φ-- seems a bit silly when the part of the rule that makes it offensive only applies when coming from members. That said, I would like to obey WP:CIVIL, so if members feel that me using the letters on the talk page constitutes some kind of personal attack, let me know and I'll rephrase whenever I can do so without losing meaning. —Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 01:45, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Thank you I appreciate the gesture. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.113.237.210 (talk) 02:16, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

I had to use it one one time in my example above, but it was not malicious. I am admittedly not a neutral party when it comes to issues of censorship, but civil discussion is always better than barbs back and forth. Thank you for discussing the matter rather than just hurling insults like your brothers did a few days ago. —Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 02:33, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

I apologize for the actions of some of my fellow FIJI's, accurate representation of our Fraternity is a topic we feel very passionate about, but personal attacks are not an acceptable method to find truth. I think the high profile of Wikipedia as a source for information amplifies this passion, not that that should be an excuse. Friendship is one of our values, and that should include civility in discussion even though some members forget that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.113.237.210 (talk) 02:39, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Page protected May 4th

I said that I would rather block users than protect pages, but it looks like several IPs are trying to remove the letters at once without seeking consensus first, so a temporary protection is the most efficient way of fixing this (while also allowing the Anonymous editors to join the discussion). The page will be free to edit again in three days, but I will protect it for longer if people start making the same edit again after that time. There is a consensus to keep the letters, so if you want to remove them, you have to first establish a new consensus here on that talk page. —Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 00:50, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

RFC:Proposal to use the flag

At one point on the List of social fraternities and sororities page (prior to the use of tables), there was a similar issue to the one that we have here, in regards to the use of the letters. A solution that was at least temporarily agreed to was the use of a small version of the Phi Gamma Delta Flag to indicate the letters. (I'm not sure exactly what size would match up best with the default size of the text in the infobox, this is at 40px)

While this compromise was eventually discarded under arguments of making the entry an exception, I believe, I think it might be an acceptible compromise here. While Wikipedia is not censored, I think that if there are solutions that give the same information and also satisfy those with objections, that they should be considered. (There was a discussion of this at Talk:Phi Gamma Delta/Archive 1#Actual greek letters which appeared to be accepted)Naraht (talk) 13:28, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

(Added disclaimer by Naraht: I am a member of a Greek Letter Organization, but not a member of Phi Gamma Delta. If you want to see which one, see my User page)

• Oppose. No convincing argument has been made as to why the letters cannot appear as they do in every other fraternity infobox. Also, such a rendering of white text on magenta could be difficult to read under a number of circumstances, especially at small sizes. OrangeDog (τ • ε) 17:45, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

• If the argument is about the accuracy of the information, as User:128.113.237.210 suggested above, then I could agree with changing the letters. However, your suggestion contains the same information as the current version, just portrayed differently. If we are only talking about cosmetics and not content, then I oppose this suggestion and would rather stick with the standard used by the other fraternity infoboxes for the sake of consistency. If we want to give the letters a background, I would rather do it at {{Infobox Fraternity}} and apply the change universally. —Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 21:15, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Unfortunately, simply adding the opportunity for a background to the letters won't work because the entity of the letters on magenta is different than the flag which also contains a star. We probably could get something with the three letters, a space and a superscripted asterisk which would probably get close, but that probably wouldn't satisfy the more conservative Phi Gamma Delta brothers anyway. The flag, OTOH, probably would. As for User:128.113.237.210's argument, if the letters don't represent the fraternity, why do they get so bent out of shape about them?

Oppose. As Arctic.gnome says this is about cosmetics and not content. I can see no plausible reason that Wikipedia should base its decisions on the appearance of the letters on the rules of an entirely separate organisation, and several reasons not to (consistency across articles and precedent for things like "G-d" and pictures of Mohammed, for instance). Naraht says "I think that if there are solutions that give the same information and also satisfy those with objections, that they should be considered", but why should we care if people object for reasons unrelated to Wikipedia's policies or purpose? Olaf Davis (talk) 14:36, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose As long as their letters are displayed on the NIC web site, I don't believe that the concerns of FIJI members have been accurately represented. I may very well be wrong, but I believe that local chapter cultures are being presented here as something more. I can't even consider allowing an exception until verifiability is credibly established. Even if verifiability is established, does an exception serve Wikipedia better than maintaining the status quo? I'm not convinced that it does. NYCRuss ☎ 14:56, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

What would verifiability consist of here?Naraht (talk) 15:42, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

A statement of the preference by a reliable source would be sufficient, though perhaps not necessary. Olaf Davis (talk) 16:36, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Under the heading "OUR GREEK LETTERS" on the official website there is a stated preference that the greek letters not be displayed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.127.204.146 (talk) 03:08, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

On that link it specifically says that members should not display the letters. Wikipedia is not a member of Fiji. —Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 04:13, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

The same page also states that "When our Fraternity is named in campus or interfraternity publications, we prefer the full spelling of Phi Gamma Delta rather than use of the Greek letters or the nickname Fiji.". Just because an info box has a place for something, that does not mean that all of the info box will apply to all articles. For my own fraternity some of the things in the infobox did not apply at all. I think that its not whether wiki should or should not respect their traditions. I think that the main issue here is that it does not apply. The Great Seal of the United States has arrows in it. Does that make arrows the symbol of the USA? NO. True most fraternities are represented by greek letters but they are not, even if they do use them in some places, just as the USA has arrows in some of its symbols. The issue is not about respect or censorship; its that wikipedia as an encyclopedia should be as close to reality as possible. I think that since they do not represent the fraternity the letters should not be either in the lead or in the info box. I don't really care if the letters are placed in the article at some point, in fact they should be in a section that explains why they are not used in most places ext. But in the lead and the infobox then that's just changing reality just to fit some ideal of uniformity. Thats just my humble opinion. BTW I have no ties at all with Phi Gamma Delta, I have just seen this problem since a few years back when it began in the list of fraternities article. El Johnson (talk) 16:03, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

It clearly does represent the fraternity: it's on their member badge, seal, flag, chapter houses, memorials, membership certificates and college rings. OrangeDog (τ • ε) 20:47, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Arctic Gnome: Please re-read the content at the link. It does say that members limit their use of the letters. However, it also states a preference that others restrict the usage as well. This is a primary source as requested by NYCRuss and Olaf Davis above. There is no question of the verifiability of the statement. This discussion has centered on the idea that the requests to remove the letters were not representative of the organization's desires. See the reference to NIC above. The point is this: there is no doubt that the organization has a published preference to not display the letters in this fashion. Opposition to removal of the letters based on uncertainty of the organization's desires is invalid. Opposition on other grounds may be valid, but please allow the debate to move on. 24.61.45.92 (talk) 13:19, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

This is caveated at the source with "When our Fraternity is named in campus or interfraternity publications". Wikipedia is neither a campus nor interfraternity publication.Naraht (talk) 16:07, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

I freely admit that there might not be grounds to show the letters based on Fiji's own policies. However, there are grounds to show them based on Wikipedia's non-censorship policy. —Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 03:39, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Since the current consensus was based on the lack of a credible source for the organization's desires, can we now reopen discussion on the present RFC (using the flag instead) or simply return to the previous stable solution (which was not considered censorship)? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Phi_Gamma_Delta/Archive_1#Actual_greek_letters 24.61.45.92 (talk) 14:10, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

In the 8 months since I made the proposal, I have read more about Wikipedia not being censored and I probably should withdraw the proposal. The concern about a source for the organizations desires was for one specific person's position.Naraht (talk) 14:45, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

The 7 locations.

I think that as part of the images of Phi Gamma Delta to show examples of the 7 places that Phi Gamma Delta brothers use Greek Letters. We already have the flag and the recognition pin, I think finding examples of the other 5 would be worthwhile.Naraht (talk) 14:50, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

There could be issues with reproducing a membership certificate. I also think most people can imagine what three letters look like when written on a gravestone or building. OrangeDog (τ • ε) 23:16, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Now it just sounds like you're trying to annoy them. The infobox and a couple of photos should be fine. —Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 06:12, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

No, not ignore them. But given that the concept of the seven locations is one of the most unique things about Phi Gamma Delta, I felt that the images would help the article.Naraht (talk) 15:09, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Thinning down the references? (pulling out book name)

With so many entries in the references from different pages in the same book, what is the appropriate way to reference the book *once* and then have the references only refer to the page and author? I've seen it done that way on other pages.

Do you remember which other articles they were? Then we could just check the edit page. ... discospinster _talk 19:07, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Is the way that Alpha Phi Alpha does it appropriate with the wikipedia references going to a section marked citations and then the book references being things like James p.150 and then the section references includes Book whatever by Jesse James ISBN ISBNnum.Naraht (talk) 19:15, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Valium needed...

I'd just like to say I've been on volunteer staff for my fraternity for the last 20 years and hold a National committee position and I think someone at Fiji at WPI (Geolocate is useful) needs a Valium. From [2]

When you put the letters up on display for everyone to see you tell the brothers of phi gamma delta that you are against everything they believe in. That friendship, knowledge,service, morality and excellence are nothing but words. Fiji means more to me than a religious belief and rightly so I will stand for my beliefs. I have sacrificed alot for this country as a military member and I couldn't have done so without the values and principals of Phi Gamma Delta. They alone are the reason I can wake up in the morning and continue serving this country. " The slogan 'Press on' has and will always solve the problems of mankind.

At least we aren't here quite yet with this article.Naraht (talk) 14:02, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Comments from Texan21

I am just confused as to the necessity of the posting of the letters whatsoever. The article does not lose anything by not featuring the letters. The title of the article is "Phi Gamma Delta" this along with the section: "Use of the Greek letters" are more than sufficient in explaining the absence of the letters in the article. If any one is that curious as to what the letters look like there are multiple other places they can look. The argument about Muhammad is absolutely irrelevant as you are comparing a fraternity to a Religion, which is utterly ridiculous, and in my opinion completely offensive to the followers of Muhammad, but that is beside the point. Basically, why edit an article about a group of which you are not a member, does it not make sense that members of any organization, especially a secretive organization are not the most qualified to maintain an article? Texan21 (talk) 23:14, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Your post brings nothing new to this discussion. The editorial decision to include the letters is based on accepted convention. Outside bodies do not decide what is included in an article. Tiderolls 00:00, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

That said, the individual members of outside bodies are welcome to make personal accounts, become editors, and discuss the policies at WP:CENSOR, WP:WikiProject Fraternities and Sororities, and WP:Conflict of interest. —Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 00:51, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree that there's not much new to respond to, but... The article does lose something by not featuring the letters. It loses the letters. This is an encyclopedia. We don't want people looking for multiple other places to find information that we can give them right here. Where there aren't legal concerns, we shouldn't censor ourselves based on the rules or beliefs of any group...whether that group is commercial, religious, or social. Wikipedia:Conflict of interest and Wikipedia:Verifiability (along with the idea that this is the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit) pretty well cover why I disagree with the idea of handing the article over to the members themselves to maintain with their secret information. You don't need to be a member to post information that can be reliably sourced. --Onorem♠Dil 00:22, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The decision to include the letters on our articles about fraternities and sororities was made by WikiProject Fraternities and Sororities. If you think that including the letters of fraternities and sororities on their respective articles is unnecessary, you can make an argument there about removing them. If you are arguing that they are unnecessary on this article alone, I would agree with you if Fiji never used the Greek letters at all, but the letters clearly are in use given that they are on the buildings, certificates, etcetera. Regarding Muhammad, I think that the comparison is very important if you think that you should be given an exemption to the censorship rules but Islam shouldn't (I also think that such a suggestion would be even more offensive to his followers). If you think that both you and Islam deserve an exemption, you can make the argument at the talk page of WP:CENSOR. As for your third point, the members of an organization are less qualified to edit the article because they have a WP:conflict of interest with the subject matter. This is the same reason why we stop famous people from editing their own articles, even though they know the most about their own lives. —Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 00:27, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

These letters should be taken down off this site immediately. It is not a matter of censorship, nor a matter of people leaving Wikipedia to find the information elsewhere. It is a matter of respect. Brothers in Phi Gamma Delta do not use their letters anywhere except the seven acceptable places. As such, I ask that others please respect our choices and not post the letters. It is one thing to have posted the letters and have no complaints, but I know of many who believe it is downright disrespectful to knowingly post them, and not change a thing once complaints are made. Editors who are not in the fraternity will never understand why this is offensive to brothers, and as such, may believe that my complaint is stupid. I cannot even begin to explain to you why this is such a big issue, but I equate it to you spitting on the letters and my very core values. Other sites across the web have taken down our letters when asked, but I am shocked that there is even a discussion over what to do on this issue. This is a matter of respect for the letters, and our fraternity, and blatantly posting them is an offense that I take personally. A possible way to resolve this issue is to post a photo of the flag instead of the text letters. This has been mentioned multiple times before, and I am surprised that this has not been implemented. That way, users see the letters and there is no censorship, yet our rules and values are not violated. The issues of the size, resolution, and placement of the flag can easily be resolved. For me, this would satisfy my issues with having the letters themselves posted. I know that other editors will say this is a conflict of interests because of my status in the fraternity, but I had to voice my concerns over the blatant disrespect by posting them. Perhaps there can be a compromise made on this matter, but until then there will always be brothers who are offended. There is a good chance that someone will remark with something to the effect of Wikipedia is not a brother and therefore is not bound by your rules, but to post the letters on the basis of continuity is ridiculous when a solution as simple as having an image with our letters on it would suffice. While Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, sometimes an effort has to be made to present the information in a non-offensive way. (For those curious, if Wikipedia was a physical book, and had our letters on a page, I would remove the page and burn it.) Let me say I am not against the freedom of knowledge, but I am against brothers being continually offended.

P!

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Kylep123 (talk • contribs) 23:23, 15 May 2011 (UTC) 

You are not against freedom of knowledge, but you would burn the page from a book? Anyway, I believe it has been posted that the bylaws of the fraternity prohibit the members from using the letters. You touch on this in your post. Tiderolls 00:18, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

"As such, I ask that others please respect our choices and not post the letters." While non-members are aloud to use our letters and I have no control over it, it is considered very disrespectful and I ask if there is another way to go about presenting them. And you are damn right I would burn that page. I would burn that page because keeping my letters in the acceptable locations mean more to me than knowledge I already have memorized. It is an example to show how much the letters mean to the brothers in this fraternity. I understand why people would want to have the letters up, but this is not a black and white issue and there are other solutions that allow the letters to be shown and not blatantly disrespect the members of this fraternity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kylep123 (talk • contribs) 05:53, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

If you are willing to burn a page because some Greek letters are shown, you fundamentally misunderstand what Wikipedia is about. The letters will not be removed just because it hurts your feelings. You're going to have to accept that. ... discospinster _talk 19:06, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

It is reassuring to know that no accommodations can be made over this issue. Clearly, I didn't realize that making a small change from text letters to a photograph on one page would violate all that Wikipedia stands for. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kylep123 (talk • contribs) 01:22, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Stackable292, 10 May 2011

take down the letters. people can look up what the letters look like. --Stackable292 (talk) 14:43, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Please see the FAQ at the top of the talk page and WP:Censor. Phi Gamma Delta's bylaws designate where *brothers* of Phi Gamma Delta may use the greek letters. Wikipedia (and almost all of the editors) aren't brothers of Phi Gamma Delta.Naraht (talk) 16:41, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Comments on ability to Self Censor?

Does anyone have an opinion on the changes to the article that I made (in coordination with the additional FAQ) to allow those who have accounts to self-censor so they don't see the letters? I got advice on how to do this on WP:Help.

Admirable, Naraht. This action should help allay possible objections without transgressing policy and accepted convention. Thanks for the effort. Tiderolls 23:39, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

The article itself

For the record, I have no personal association with this organization. I think with all the attention being paid on the Greek letters, the quality of article itself has (understandably) suffered. The entire section on the 'Historical sketch of Jefferson College' seems completely pointless to me. It seems like info that should be in Washington & Jefferson College, and is mostly out of place here. Unless someone has a good objection, I would like to delete it, and move the see also line to the next section. That seems like the most obvious starting place, but there are many other problems with this article -mainly that it reads like a recruitment brochure. Any thoughts? Grayfell (talk) 05:49, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Agreed on that, and also the link for each of the original founders to the follow section on the Immortal six doesn't seem quite right.Naraht (talk) 13:40, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

I agree. They were all redirects to the 'Immortal Six' section just below the one they were in. I changed the redirects to the 'Founding of Phi Gamma Delta' section, and removed the Immortal Six section, since it was completely redundant. Grayfell (talk) 22:42, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Proposal on change to description of the letters field.(Fiji exception)

On the talk page for the Infobox Fraternity (Template talk:Infobox fraternity#Proposal on change to description of the letters field.), I started a discussion on allowing for a more common name in place of greek letters if appropriate. Yes, this is done as the formal way to consider allowing for the use of Fiji rather than the greek letters in the Infobox at Phi Gamma Delta. Please comment at the Template talk page. I have also posted this to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Fraternities and Sororities.Naraht (talk) 17:55, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Naraht (talk) 17:55, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

The letters should be changed because the FIJI website does ask publication to use that instead of greek letters — Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.170.129.96 (talk) 18:22, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

That has been discussed repeatedly, to put it mildly, and the result has always that the rules of the fraternity do not apply to Wikipedia. Favonian (talk) 18:25, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

No. Wikipedia members are not bound the fraternity rules. We don't pay dues.--GrapedApe (talk) 00:44, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm a brother of FIJI. I made a Chrome extension that removes the Greek letters from all web pages, including Wikipedia. I don't think I'm allowed to link to it here, but it's on the Chrome Web Store and you should find it yourself easily. Brothers, I hope it brings you some peace. Perge! 50.176.186.16 (talk) 22:41, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

FIJI vs. Fiji

Does anyone have any idea on when to use FIJI and when to use Fiji in the article? Since these are both forms of the nickname, I'm actually tempted to call Phi Gamma Delta Headquarters. Note, there are uses of both capitalizations on their home page, mostly FIJI, but "Famous Fijis"Naraht (talk) 13:52, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

• If they aren't clear on it in their website, then it's probably not a big deal.--GrapedApe (talk) 23:55, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
  • I got a call back from them. The rule that they use is that when dealing with the group as an organization (like referring to the National Fraternity or as a chapter), use FIJI, but when used to describe a person, use Fiji. So "notable Fiji alumni" vs. "Notable alumni of FIJI". I keeping finding google references to a "Style" guide on the phigam.org website, but I can't find it. :(Naraht (talk) 14:11, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
    • That is a very strange distinction to make. Works for me, though. Kudos for checking that out.--GrapedApe (talk) 18:02, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
      • The question is whether it is a distinction that the article should make, frankly, I'd be just fine if the only mentions of Fiji/FIJI were in the infobox and in the initial paragraph. Oddly enough Phi Gamma Delta agrees with this. From http://www.phigam.org/page.aspx?pid=930 "When our fraternity is named in campus or interfraternity publications, we prefer the full spelling of Phi Gamma Delta rather than use of the Greek letters or the nickname Fiji." Naraht (talk) 18:39, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
        • As a member, here's maybe some insight into the reason for the difference. First off, the Fraternity doesn't use Greek letters in places that aren't considered appropriate. FIJI is a substitute for the letters whenever Greek letters would normally be appropriate. Since the Greek letters are all uppercase, FIJI is all uppercase. Simple really. There are lots of instances where FIJI will be listed in-line with the Greek letters of other organizations, and using all caps to match the case of the other orgs keeps us from looking too out of place. Finally, "Fiji" might not be appropriate in places where it could be mistaken for the island nation (same reason it's "Fijis" and not "Fijians"). That said, use of "Fiji" to refer to the org isn't outright wrong. We've used it for logo designs and such when it fits (fancy typefaces that make capital "F," "I" and "J" look good next to each other can be hard to come by). The final reason why FIJI might refer to the org and Fiji might refer to a member is because you're no longer using the nickname as a replacement for the Greek letters themselves. One analog to this is that Delta Kappa Epsilon is often abbreviated to DKE, but members are referred to as "Dekes." The nickname "Fiji" originated at NYU as a riff on "Phee Gee," and was chosen as the official nickname because it's distinctive and appeals to the imagination. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.88.202.60 (talk) 01:13, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
          • The fraternity uses the Greek Letters in the places that it feels are most appropriate to it, and as such is the most appropriate way to refer to it. I'd be quite interested in any documentation from phigam.org (or elsewhere official) that had the difference between the usages FIJI and Fiji formally spelled out.
          • Also, Phi Gamma Delta's bylaws *only* control the actions of the members and Wikipedia as a collective (and 99.9% of editors) are not members of Phi Gamma Delta. Please review WP:CENSOR in regards to the article, and please see WP:TPO in regards to the inappropriateness of removal of the greek letters from other's comments on the talk page. Additionally note, that since Phi Gamma Delta did not trademark the combination of the three greek letters (It only trademarked the english spelling of the Greek Letters) it does not have even that level of control of the letters.Naraht (talk) 02:18, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
            • Jeez dude, you think we don't know that already? It's written everywhere on this page. No need to start typing up a long retort to some imagined affront to Wikipedia's values. As I've posted elsewhere on this talk page, I made a Chrome extension that removes the Greek letters from webpages my users visit automatically, and I'm personally pretty happy with ending the edit war there. So calm down. To answer you, Phi Gamma Delta probably won't publish a usage guide, since members know the correct usage and can direct others as to the proper usage without referring to a guide. Also it's a low priority. My brief explanation above is provided anonymously so it can't be confirmed but to those who know at least a little bit about Greek Life Organizations, it makes sense. Also I'll point out that I saw the style guide, referenced above, years ago before FIJI updated the site. It was barely a page long and provided nothing actually helpful.173.3.71.183 (talk) 01:41, 9 May 2016 (UTC)
              • OK, (assuming that the person at 72.88.202.60 and the person at 173.3.71.183 are the same). I appreciate your willingness to discuss this. Firstly, given the high number of efforts to remove the letters from the article page, I'd welcome anything that would allow someone who isn't a registered user to not see them. I'm *quite* willing to add information on the Chrome extensionto the FAQ solutions, having said that, I doubt that most people trying to remove them look at the FAQ. :( As for FIJI where Delta Kappa Epsilon would use DKE and Fiji where they would use Deke, that does make sense, and I would appreciate your opinion as to any location in the article where Fiji should be replaced with FIJI or vice versa.Naraht (talk) 04:01, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

References in regards to Matt Fritzie

The most recent hits I can find for Matt Fritzie in news.google.com are basically a whole grouping around the last week of 2010 and first week of 2011 indicating that he was suing the National Fraternity in Jackson County Circuit Court (example http://www.eldoradotimes.com/article/20110103/NEWS/301039945 )and then another couple around February 14th, about KU redefining its hazing policies which includes

The university put its chapter of the Phi Gamma Delta fraternity on two years of probation after an investigation revealed hazing occurred at the fraternity's annual island party in September. Kansas freshman Matt Fritzie was left paralyzed after diving into a makeshift pool at that party.

. Should the fact that the school found hazing to have taken place be added or other changes to be made?Naraht (talk) 00:25, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

That seems like a reasonable addition to me. What's the source for that quote? Grayfell (talk) 02:25, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

http://www.kansas.com/2011/02/14/1719673/ku-alters-policies-on-hazing-after.html , sorry, I meant to include that after the blockquote.Naraht (talk) 13:13, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Done. Hopefully the wording is satisfactory. Grayfell (talk) 22:39, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

• Should this even be mentioned in the article? Fraternity articles typically only deal with events that are (inter)national in scale. Isolated hazing incidents wouldn't qualify; if it were found that national condoned this sort of behaviour, then it would warrant inclusion. —C.Fred (talk) 23:51, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

The national organization was involved in the lawsuit. I attempted to keep the phrasing as neutral as possible, and I don't think the current paragraph connects the incident to the national organization any more than is indicated by sources. This was discussed in the media, both on its own, and as an indicator of the larger problem of hazing. It's not necessarily a hugely important issue for the fraternity, but it does give context to the other mentioned incidents. It would be misleading to imply that the MIT incident, which was very significant for both Phi Gamma Delta, and fraternities at MIT, was the only noteworthy hazing incident involving Fiji. Grayfell (talk) 00:31, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

nobreak spaces...

I wonder if any sort of insertion among the three letters of something like non-break spaces or directional markers would reduce the amount of vandalism or for that matter putting the greek letters themselves in uuencode so that isn't obvious what they are. The last is against Wikipedia principles, I think but tempting.Naraht (talk) 20:08, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

The question is, how are the IPs getting here to change the article? Are they searching on the Greek character sequence online, or are they checking out the fraternity's Wikipedia page because of other reasons? My guess is it's the latter, and if they're blowing by the note, the coding of the letters won't stop them. —C.Fred (talk) 22:24, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Probably wouldn't work, but it's an entertaining idea. How about one normal letter, one uuencode, and one .svg file scaled way down? Okay, maybe not. I think any technical tricks like that would just lead to indiscriminate section-blanking. Otherwise the way to do it might be to switch the infobox to a stand-alone template similar to a navbox. That way it's not even obvious where the letter actually are. Definitely against the spirit of Wikipedia, though. Grayfell (talk) 23:20, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

• I think it's a great idea! Here's a test with the unicode letters (I reverted myself, awaiting the discussion here to progress): TEST. I don't think it's against the spirit of Wikipedia, I see it as simple anti-vandalism strategy, which is good for the project. I propose that we try it and see if the vandalism declines, or if it encourages section blanking.--GrapedApe (talk) 23:40, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Huh. Well, I think it's supposed to be ΦΓΔ ( #x3a6; #x393; #x394;). That looks correct to me. If it's rendering differently in different browsers, that might be a problem. Grayfell (talk) 00:34, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

Well, looking for the greek letters in google (just copy them from the article and drop into the search field., this article is number 1. OTOH, the greek system page for Mississippi state is #6. And I see no difference between the unicoded letters (as provided by Grayfell) and the actual letters in my chrome browser. The question is whether that will still be picked up by google...

As an additional comment, if we include a small .svg image scaled down, we might as well go with a *small* flag of the fraternity and eliminate the entire problem (from their standpoint)Naraht (talk) 02:12, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

Oh, I hadn't even thought of that. In addition to Google search results, could this introduce WP:accessibility problems? Grayfell (talk) 02:40, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

I think that for an image, a text string can be given that will be "read" when viewed by an auditory user. And that would probably be more clear with the letters spelled out in English than the greek letters. (So I don't think that is a problem. And since the fraternity web page simply says

The Official Flag is of royal purple background, with the fraternity's Greek initials in the center, and a star in the upper right-hand corner. Both the initials and the star are white. Each chapter may place in the upper left-hand corner the Greek letter or letters which designate it in the Fraternity.

one of the users who specializes in graphics could probably create one in a couple of minutes.Naraht (talk) 17:25, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

I think that an image filename would be similarly targeted for vandalism, especially with a filename like File:Phi Gamma Delta letters.svg.--GrapedApe (talk) 00:24, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

Why? The spelled out english is just fine and the Flag is one of the 7 places.Naraht (talk) 14:34, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

So Now

Do we want to consider using ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Naraht (talk • contribs) 16:02, 29 January 2014‎ (UTC)

Won't the alt= tag just bring us right back to the same place? That said, the underlying issue hasn't changed: Wikipedia is not censored. There are images of Mohammad here, the word God is written out, and the Greek letters of FIJI are in its article. I don't see any compelling reason for this article to be less complete than similar articles. —C.Fred (talk) 16:44, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

If we were considering getting rid of the letters, then the flag might be an option. But so far no one has given a reason to take down the letters that isn't debunked in the FAQ at the top of this talk page. --—Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 17:13, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Yup. I don't think we want to go down that road. I think we should strive for clarity and consistency, and this seems like a little less of both. White symbols on a colored background are not always easy to read, and there's still the issue of search-engine results. It's a neat idea, (and well executed, too), but I don't think this is a good solution to the vandalism problem. If we do end up using it, I think the color is supposed to be closer to  , but it's probably a moot point. Grayfell (talk) 21:49, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

• No, I am against using the flag. I am for using #x3a6; #x393; #x394. This is supposed to be an anti-vandalism move, rather than a "Wikipedia complies with the frat's rules." No other frats have a flag in place of their letters.--GrapedApe (talk) 00:51, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

I realize this is several months old, but since it appears to be a continuing discussion, I'll put in my two cents. I don't think we should use the flag in the same place where most organizations use greek letters, however, I also don't think there is a great reason to put the letters there as opposed to putting "FIJI". I was an enthusiastic member of the greek system for four years before I found out that Fiji was short for Phi Gamma Delta as opposed to FIJI being the official name of the fraternity.

I think the best solution would be to "FIJI" in that spot in the infobox where the greek symbol typically goes and then put a logo of their flag lower down in the infobox so readers can see both symbols and their usage. The fact that the fraternity frowns on it being on the site isn't a great reason to remove it (wikipedia is not a member of the frat), but I think the very limited usage of the greek symbols is a good reason to give preference to FIJI in that spot. The "FIJI" is what our readers are going to see on guys t-shirts, on FB, on Greek oriented websites, etc. I don't know official they consider it, but they rarely use the greek letters and for all intents and purposes, FIJI is their most commonly used symbol. Putting the greek letters there instead of FIJI is somewhat misleading to readers. Replacing them with FIJI and then putting the flag in the infobox with the greek letters expresses much more clearly to the reader the place that these symbols hold within this fraternity and how they are commonly used. Bali88 (talk) 02:41, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

It seems artificial not to display ΦΓΔ in the infobox considering that the official name of the the fraternity is wholly derived from those letters. It might be different if the name were different and the letters were only of ritual significance or something, but the connection to the name of the fraternity is obvious and unambiguous. It may not be as commonly used as other greek letters, but to my way of thinking, that's all the more reason to make it clear in the article. What about displaying both ΦΓΔ and FIJI in the infobox? Like this: "ΦΓΔ (official), FIJI (common)" or similar. Might mess-up the censorship div, but I'm sure we can figure something out. Grayfell (talk) 04:07, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

That's a reasonable solution too. To me, the "FIJI" part is pretty darn important and doesn't seem to be...what's the word? Prominent enough? Emphasized enough? It should be given more emphasis if you ask me, and I feel like the infobox should clarify how widely used the FIJI part is. Bali88 (talk) 04:26, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

A few comments. FIJI is in the first sentence of the article, pretty prominent. secondly, Using the flag rather than the letters can have no reason other than Phi Gamma Delta's bylaws which are irrelevant for this concept. Thirdly, I wrote the censorship div, so we can figure out something. What I would support is begin censorship divΦΓΔ<small>(official)</small><br>end censorshipdivFIJI<small>common</small> if we can get that to look good.Naraht (talk) 18:54, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Can you explain the censorship thing? I'm not sure what all that is Bali88 (talk) 19:18, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Based on the method used in some of the articles with images of Mohammed, there is the ability for a user *with an account* to set a variable so that they will not see the greek letters when the view the article. Information on how to do so is in the FAQ at the top of the talk page.Naraht (talk) 19:21, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Cool thanks. Bali88 (talk) 19:24, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Okay, I tried it. I'm not knowledgeable about infobox formatting, so that's as much as I can do, but it looks okay on my browser. If we don't like it, we can always revert. Grayfell (talk) 07:20, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

After some research, I figured out that the infobox fraternity sets the letters as the subheading they are set at 125% & bold by default, so the small works from *that*. So I overloaded it (I think) by setting the style for the official/common to 60%. I think it belongs somewhere between 50% and 75%, so let me know if you think it should be tweeked larger or smaller.Naraht (talk) 15:45, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Nicely done, that looks better. Grayfell (talk) 20:54, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Looks great, thanks. Bali88 (talk) 02:18, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Edit notice?

How do people feel about adding an WP:Editnotice to the page, or would that not do any better than the current commented text?Naraht (talk) 21:21, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Who knows. It may seem more offical to have an edit notice and make people less likely to do it. Bali88 (talk) 21:25, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, I think it could help. It's worth a try, at least. Grayfell (talk) 21:39, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Content

Does anyone know of any edit notices for similar situations? At worst, we can use a similar one to the one from Mohammed, (without the (pbuh) of course) given that's where I got the info on how to hide things if a person has an account.Naraht (talk) 21:54, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Proposal

I sort of dropped the ball on this one. How about this one altered from Template:Editnotices/Page/Muhammad ? (Note, creation of editnotices is restricted, but we can submit an edit request)

(Note because this is on the talk page that the link to the talk page has been turned into normal text, that won't occur when used.Naraht (talk) 11:54, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

I did not notice this until now. This looks pretty slick, well done. Grayfell (talk) 05:27, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 June 2015

Please remove the Greek letters from the top of the page. Crt180 (talk) 14:53, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Not done: Please read the FAQ at the top of this talk page. Favonian (talk) 16:20, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

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Checked. Grayfell (talk) 05:30, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 March 2017

76.79.50.114 (talk) 17:14, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Grayfell (talk) 17:24, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 April 2017

I request to remove the "complaints about behavio"r section. I have looked through several other greek associations and have found no such sections on their wiki pages. This consitutes for a removal of the complaints section of the Phi Gamma Delta wiki page. Please take corrective action as soon as possible. Jporter9464 (talk) 15:29, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. Not saying you don't have a case but WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, feel free to discuss and build consensus here Cannolis (talk) 15:46, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

Which ones? User:Broadmoor seems to be fairly equal opportunity.Naraht (talk) 17:52, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

• Endorse removal. The usual determinant when this issue has come up in other articles is whether the incident is national in scope/coverage or limited to a local matter only. Since the sources are all local to the only chapter mentioned, I would say that this issue is only local and therefore outside the scope of an article on the national organization. —C.Fred (talk) 00:55, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 April 2021 - Gettysburg College Fiji Chapter Suspended until 2023

Add to complaints about behavior. In 2020, Gettysburg College suspended the Phi Gamma Delta until January 1st, 2023 due to violations of the COVID-19 protocols. The chapter hosted a party in September 2020 after Gettysburg College went into quarantine.

https://gettysburgian.com/2020/12/college-suspends-phi-gamma-delta-fiji-fraternity-chapter-until-2023-citing-egregious-covid-19-protocol-violations-and-years-of-conduct-concerns/#:~:text=The%20Phi%20Gamma%20Delta%20(FIJI,housing%20during%20the%20suspension%20period. Banjo509 (talk) 00:46, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: WP:NOTNEWS, I fail to see how one chapter is significant enough to warrant mention here. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 03:08, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 March 2022

Requesting the removal of the Greek letters from this page. The International Fraternity of Phi Gamma Delta, in accordance with its laws, is not permitted to have their letters written outside of certain contexts including a class ring, chapter house, certificate of membership, flag, badge, seal, and memorial. 199.120.30.239 (talk) 20:02, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: We're not the fraternity, so we're not beholden to its laws. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:18, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

Expanding on the above: Wikipedia is not censored. We have pictures of Mohammed, we print the name of the Jewish God, and we have y'all's letters. —C.Fred (talk) 20:19, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

Also, please read the FAQ entries at the top of the page, they specifically deal with this issue where as far as I can tell, Phi Gamma Delta is unique among the Greek Letter Organizations.Naraht (talk) 17:29, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 June 2022

The information on the Hazing event at the University of Missouri is missing some things and factually incorrect. 1) It should specify University of Missouri - Columbia (As opposed to the also existing University of Missouri - Kansas City). The are otherwise unable to be told apart without the city and that is their legal proper name. 2) The name of the victim student is known, it is Daniel Santulli who was 19 years old at the time of the incident. This is also important because some charges were hazing, others were providing to a minor. 3) He was not "found unresponsive" by University Police, but he was instead driven to the University Hospital by fraternity brothers, police had nothing to do with any of it and were not involved until after the fact. 4) There is more known now, lawsuits and at the moment of this writing, 2 people charged with felonies for their role. 5) Victim is now blind, unable to walk (wheelchair bound), and unable to speak/communicate, and suffered brain damage. (According to his family's attorney, not medically verified, but publicly stated and included on lawsuit paperwork) 6) The University did say it disciplined members of the fraternity, but no details were given.

NOTE: The biggest thing I want to point out is that while it is missing information, it is inaccurate to say that "Police at the University of Missouri found an unresponsive freshman after a fraternity party in 2021" as paperwork filed with the court has stated as well: "The lawsuit states Santulli’s “skin was pale and his lips were blue, yet no one called 911.” Instead, the decision was made to drive Santulli to University Hospital in Columbia in one of the brother’s cars." It is also known that this was not just an alcohol overdose, but was hazing on a pledge during their "dad reveal".

Sources: https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/two-st-louis-county-men-indicted-in-mizzou-hazing-that-left-freshman-blind-unable-to/article_48ed38ce-0c8f-54ce-9ec6-de09fb1fc4b8.html https://www.columbiatribune.com/story/news/2022/06/17/danny-santulli-felony-charges-fiji-hazing-missouri-mizzou-fraternity-brothers/7665422001/ https://www.columbiatribune.com/story/news/education/campus/2022/06/16/mizzou-greek-life-hazing-involving-alcohol-entrenched-missouri-campus-report-says/7633021001/ https://fox59.com/news/national-world/hazing-incident-leaves-university-of-missouri-student-unable-to-see-talk-or-walk/ Zacklovin (talk) 18:21, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

I've adjusted the page language with this information and the four offered references. So sad. Jax MN (talk) 19:06, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

Agreed. Thank you for the edit! Zacklovin (talk) 04:39, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 February 2023

REMOVE THE GREEK LETTERS FROM THE SIDEBAR. IT IS VERY LIMITED USE; Farhan.frc (talk) 02:29, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: @Farhan.frc: Wikipedia is under no obligation to follow the fraternity's guidelines for the limited use. —C.Fred (talk) 02:31, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

An observation, for FIJI brothers. This issue, regarding your Greek letters, has been rehashed ad nauseum, for perhaps fifteen years here on Wikipedia. Every year or so, a well-meaning collegian comes to the party late, and decides to edit those deeply meaningful letters he sees so scandalously portrayed on a fleeting website. "They're not one of the seven approved usages", he opines. So, with all the passion of a devoted young member, he edits them away. ...And is promptly swatted down by mean ol' editors who deny him this edit. Passions are inflamed. The deletion of the letters is abruptly reversed, with nary a comment, nor explanation. Perhaps only a cryptic "see FAQ", and you are left thinking, "Where the hell is that? Who does that mean 'ol editor think he or she is?" Because you are new here.

Here's the deal. We're not trying to be mean or disrespectful. Many of us are devoted Greeks. We work on these pages to fix or prevent vandalism, and to ensure at least a fair summary of all organizations within this class, and some 3,000 pages connected in some way with Greek life. The 'FIJI letters rule' is unique among national fraternities, and likely was a marketing and training decision made long ago by the founders or early members of the fraternity. It's your quirk, and for my part, I smile, nod and respect it -- for your own usage. You can control how YOU use it, but newspapers, college websites, Wikipedia and other media aren't beholden to your rules. To us, it is a less onerous (~annoying) demand than, say, Ohio State people who insist on inserting "The" in front of the school's name here and everywhere else they see it. We delete that, too. You've now been trapped into the Streisand effect by bringing attention to it here. Edits that delete the FIJI letters are now noticed and tracked by dozens and dozens of intensely devoted Wikipedia editors, and reverted within moments.

The compromise can be this: An editor can include language on the Phi Gamma Delta page, noting that internal usage rules discourage (even disallow) presentation of the letters on any but the seven approved locations. Such wording is there, now. This is factual, supported by citable references, and it is interesting. But nevertheless, on Wikipedia we will cordially, but resolutely revert all attempts to delete the Greek letters. This is an enforced internal consistency shared with articles about other GLOs which we track. To allow this for FIJI would be to devolve into favoritism. Soon, every GLO would want to insert their own "special" rule, and endless one-upmanship, which would create confusion. Jax MN (talk) 19:07, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

(I personally have been involved in this discussion for 15 years. (May of 2008 is the first comment on the talk archive page from me I can find.)Naraht (talk) 00:17, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 November 2022

The section on the Butler Sexual assault is inaccurate, it says "...Crawfordsville, Indiana police told her Butler University has no formal code of conduct and that the student who assaulted her would face few consequences" It is not Butler University that has no formal code of conduct, but Wabash College. This should be changed to accurately reflect the facts.

Source: https://www.wabash.edu/aboutwabash/rule Xyban9 (talk) 01:34, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

 Done Cannolis (talk) 01:46, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

Current information about Danny Daniels is incorrect

Article currently states: "It was found out that the fraternity hosted a large party the night before, and that members forced Daniels to drink large amounts of alcohol for initiation. Once he became sick, a few FIJI brothers carried him to a secluded room at the fraternity and left him"

First thing to note is that the first source listed is about a different Fresno State student named "Omar Nemeth," not Danny Daniels.

Second is that the statement that "the fraternity hosted a large party the night before" is incorrect because the date coincides when school was not in session between semesters, so the fraternity was not operational and few fraternity members or Fresno State students were even in town.

Third, at the time of his death, Danny Daniels was not in any way a member of Fiji, he was friends with some of the members and was living in the house. He would not have been involved in any kind of "initiation ceremony," and the fraternity would not be holding any kind of ceremony while school was not in session.

Fourth, the room that he died in was his bedroom (as I mentioned, he was living in the house), not some secluded room that he'd been taken to.

These are the facts that conflict with the current description in the article: Danny Daniels lived in the fraternity house and was found dead in his own bedroom. Danny Daniels was not a member of Fiji and as such was not involved in any sort of initiation ceremony. Danny Daniels was actually not even a Fresno State student at the time (was not a student the previous semester and was not enrolled as a student for the upcoming semester). This alone makes him ineligible for membership in Fiji. When he died, school was not in session and the fraternity was not operating.

I know that Wikipedia doesn't like original sources but I know these things because I was a Fiji at Fresno State when Danny Daniels died. I'm not trying to do PR for Fiji or anything, I just hate to see such a blatantly false description of what happened. I'll try to dig up sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.113.56.113 (talk) 18:30, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for declaring your conflict of Interest. I will be happy to work with you on improving the article. I agree that none of the sources indicate that that Mr. Daniels was a student or a Pledge. The first source while about Omar Nemeth mentions the situation with Danny Daniels. The editor who added it is MYLARRRR and as such I have alerted him of this conversation.

If you have a proposal for a rewrite, I will be happy to consider making the change. I don't feel comfortable *completely* dropping it from the article at this time, however I think there are two other changes. First, when the change is made, the entire section should be renamed to controversies as it is on other fraternity pages, and Second, The entry for Danny Daniels should be dropped from List of hazing deaths in the United States unless some other reference can be made that he was a pledge.Naraht (talk) 20:43, 4 March 2021 (UTC)