Talk:Persoonia terminalis

5,000,000

This page is reported as Wikipedia article № 5 million! 220 of ^Borg 13:29, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Five million articles. 220 of ^Borg 13:37, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

@220 of Borg, Casliber, G S Palmer, Chevvin, Emijrp, and Natalie.Desautels:, Check out this article. Congratulations. Cheers! {{u|Checkingfax}} {Talk} 13:38, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

Should we put in the article that the 5,000,000th article in the online encyclopedia wikipedia is about Persoonia terminalis? 98.117.255.23 (talk) 01:01, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

Usually I'm more laid back than most Wikipedians but no. Too meta. See WP:SELFREFERENCE. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 01:50, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

@Checkingfax: Thanks so much for this incredible link! At least I think it was you who sent it—I've been so engrossed and in awe over this article that I can't remember my name! I found the videos were very beautiful and powerful. I always identified with "self-less" endeavors, ...recalling when www inventor when Tim Berners-Lee said that he never wanted to be encumbered with the burden of a lot of money. Wikipedia turns out to be more than I ever imagined. Again, thank you for this beautiful link. best wishes, merci infiniment, Natalie --Natalie.Desautels (talk) 07:26, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

Shortlist of English Wikipedia milestones

@220 of Borg, Casliber, G S Palmer, Chevvin, Emijrp, and Natalie.Desautels: Persoonia terminalis made the short list of English Wikipedia Milestone articles. Cheers! {{u|Checkingfax}} {Talk} 00:30, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

@Checkingfax: Amazing! Thanks for sending this my way. best wishes, --Natalie.Desautels (talk) 05:52, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

Names of discoverers

On this page it credits L.A.S.Johnson & P.H.Weston as the discoverers (and gives a bit more description), whereas the source used for this article says "Weston and P.G.Richards". As this article is likely to get lots of page hits it would be good to improve it.— Rod ^talk 13:20, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

Walter, Kerry Scott; Gillett, Harriet J. (1998). 1997 IUCN Red List of Threatened Plants. p. 476. ISBN 9782831703282. also gives Johnson & Weston.— Rod ^talk 13:22, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

Johnson and Weston are the Describers (see Species description)....but weston and Richards actually picked the plant. I'll ring Peter Weston in the morning and see if we can get a photo. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:17, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

NB: I need to sleep as it is past 1am here in Sydney, teh basic description is an easy write up overnight and I will find some stuff in the morning. Also there is this nice paper which talks about some of the ecological communities it grows in. Anyway....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:17, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

Images

Just to note that I've asked the photographer of https://www.flickr.com/photos/58828131@N07/6805661222 and https://www.flickr.com/photos/58828131@N07/16731755955 whether he would be willing to make the images of the two ssp subject to a free license.  Sandstein  14:23, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

I also mailed him thirty minutes ago. :) Einstein2 (talk) 14:37, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

Gosh Me too about 45 minutes ago myself. Poor guy. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 14:48, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

Koavf, Sandstein, Einstein2, would you kindly ping Gamaliel and myself if you hear back from the photographer? It's a pretty plant, and it would be nice to have an image in the Signpost. Best, Andreas JN466 16:59, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

Well done folks! Had meant to take a look on flickr. I have a few persoonias in my garden but not this one.... Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:04, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

How long does it take to get from Jordanhill to here? MyOwnBadSelf | Consult the Fossil 22:40, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

About 35 hrs assuming one drives from Jordonhill to London, flies from London to Sydney, and then drives to Torrington near where the plant was first collected but I imagine one could devise a faster route. Eluchil404 (talk) 23:32, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

The Flickr pictures state that they were taken in a botanical garden in Canberra, which would shave several hours off of your time. --Chevvin (talk) 00:40, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

Might be more prudent to drive to Brisbane and head southwest. Closer than drive from Sydney by some hours....Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:30, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

Gratuitous template added. 220 of ^Borg 00:54, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

(lightbulb above head goes on) @Chevvin: you're a genius - I'll ping someone in Canberra to go take a snap. It is a it early but you never know. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 02:11, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Nine years and eight months. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 00:47, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

Heh. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:30, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

Although non-free this image could be uploaded under fair use according to the ANBG. A free alternative is always preferred though --– jfsamper ^{(talk•contrib•email)} 04:19, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

Even if permitted by ANBG, it wouldn't be allowed under Wikipedia's own policies (see WP:NFCC particularly #1). Calliopejen1 (talk) 01:57, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

I might get on the ol' dog-and-bone later today and ask around.... Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 02:09, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Hmm, its hard to say if it falls under fair use. I mean, does a free alternative exist? Anyway, I'd rather err on the side of caution and wait for someone to take a picture of it Right, a free alternative can be reasonably expected to be uploaded in the future, so unfortunately it doesn't fall into fair use :( --– jfsamper ^{(talk•contrib•email)} 03:34, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

@Jayen466 and Gamaliel: the uploader of the Flickr photos relicensed two of his images under CC-BY-SA, they are now available at commons:Category:Persoonia terminalis. Einstein2 (talk) 12:10, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, Einstein2. That's great. --Andreas JN466 12:20, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Nice work, everyone. Gamaliel (talk) 13:16, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

3R and 2R on ROTAP

I suspect that many readers (myself included) will not have prior knowledge of what ROTAP is and that the meaning of 2R and 3R is even less likely to be known. I did click through on ROTAP to find out what it was but did not see what the different codes actually meant. It would be handy if this information could be spelled out here (as well as all the codes at the ROTAP article). Greenshed (talk) 02:46, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

I have added footnotes. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:51, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. Greenshed (talk) 01:37, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Paper

May anyone mail me Weston, Peter H.; Johnson, Lawrence Alexander Sydney (1991). "Taxonomic changes in Persoonia (Proteaceae) in New South Wales". Telopea 4 (2): 369-406 [281-83], that I can expand the German article with its help?--Kopiersperre (talk) 13:16, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

@Kopiersperre: It is online - see this page Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:53, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

Content cannot be accessed.--Kopiersperre (talk) 14:27, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

@Kopiersperre: That's weird. I downloaded the PDF from there. Ok. send me an email and I will send to you. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:37, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

Map request

Since this plant "has a range of under 100 km" a map highlighting this area may be helpful. Is anyone skilled in making maps for Wikimedia projects willing to do this? Jonathunder (talk) 16:39, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

Yes. I was just thinking that. I can make a segment map but not so good with the exploded segments. I can do something like File:Telopea truncata distribution map.svg but it won't be till tonight (about 15 hours from now.). The most detailed map is in the paper that is accessed off this page, on page 290 or so. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:39, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

i.e. if someone else wants to have a go they are most welcome....Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:43, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

doing this now. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:19, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Damn....having trouble. Will try later. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:19, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

The pub with no beer

I was interested in the Torrington pub which was given as a landmark ("Emmaville-Torrington road, 3.4 km S of Torrington pub"). My impression is that this was the Tableland Hotel but that this has now lost its licence, alas. Still, as the holotype was found over a mile away, it's not that close. I have added the coordinates given in the report to the article – 29°20′S 151°41′E. Andrew D. (talk) 12:33, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Must ask my friends about that pub....Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:18, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Pronunciation

I'd like to request that the subject's pronunciation be transcribed and included in the lead. Hopefully, I haven't been pronouncing it incorrectly in my head these past few days. Mz7 (talk) 21:38, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

Pronunciation of scientific names is a tricky subject. There can be multiple "correct" pronunciations. One issue is how to pronounce terms of non-Latin/Greek origin; some botanists prefer to pronounce them as they would be pronounced in the original language, while others go for a Latinate pronunciation. I'm not sure if Afrikaans and Latinate pronunciations of "Persoon" differ; if it's the same, including pronunciation shouldn't be a problem. Not that it's relevant here, but another source of disagreement is how to pronounce scientific names with a "ce" or "ci"; in Latin, c is always hard, while in English and Spanish, c followed by e or i is soft. European botanists tend to go with hard c, while botanists from the Americas go with soft c (not sure what Australian botanists do). Plantdrew (talk) 22:22, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

Some Australian botanists say it soft, I always pronounce it hard. So personal preference I suspect. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 22:26, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

WRT this species, I can't imagine any other way to pronounce other than the emphasis on the final 'a' and it pronounced as 'aa'. It'd have to be sourced from somewhere to be placed in the article to not be OR. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 22:27, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

I agree, with this much ambiguity, pronunciation should probably be verified by reliable sources. I've provisionally removed the {{pronunciation needed}} tag. Mz7 (talk) 23:28, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

What is the most common standard of pronunciation for contemporary scientific names per WP:COMMON? Or perhaps both a Classical Latinate and Afrikaans/Australian English pronunciation?--Sige |д･) 04:18, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

• I oppose the inclusion of a pronunciation guide per WP:OR, WP:NOTHOWTO and WP:MOSINTRO which says we should avoid "difficult-to-understand terminology and symbols". Anyway, what people would actually call this is a geebung, right? Getting that name into the article seems more important. Andrew D. (talk) 09:56, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

Thanks Andrew - John Hunter who judging by papers I have trawled through is better versed on the area than most, has called it "Torrington geebung". Plant people like promoting common names as it lessens the pain when genera get split/amalgamated etc. And added Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 11:06, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Persoonia terminalis/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Jaguar (talk · contribs) 19:01, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

I'll be happy to review this (also my 350th review, by coincidence) JAGUAR  19:01, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

Oh and I just realised this is the 5,000,000th article! JAGUAR  19:05, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

Initial comments

• "Initially considered to be a subspecies of P. nutans" - should Persoonia nutans be fully written out? I see it's abbreviated elsewhere in the article, so feel free to ignore if I'm wrong. It is, however, not abbreviated in the Taxonomy section

yeah, can go either way here. These names often get abbreviated when it is clear it is a species of the same genus. As it is early in the article makes sense to unabbreviate Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:32, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

• "and are followed thereafter by purple-striped green fleshy drupes" - I'm not sure if "fleshy" sounds a bit informal here

You'll see the word in botanical texts. It means that the fruit has flesh (like a peach). However I concede that "drupe" means this as well...hence it is tautological. Just realised the "stone fruit" is there for meaning, so removed "fleshy" Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:32, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

• The lead could be expanded slightly in order to summarise the article. For example, Persoonia terminalis first being treated in 1981 isn't mentioned in the lead

added a bit...big enough now? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:00, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

• "although occasional flowers have been seen to July" - in July?

hmm, it means they can occur any time up to July (from January...) Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:37, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

• "A proportion of flowers do have a true leaf instead" - 'do' sounds redundant

yeah, a bit forced....so removed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:43, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

• "Hardy to heavy frosts, P. terminalis is expected to fare better in a temperate rather than subtropical garden climate" - the beginning of the sentence doesn't make sense

hardy is an adjective of P. terminalis not frosts, but changed it anyway thusly Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:42, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

• "which lies dormant in the soil" - the reference given here doesn't mention that terminalis lies dormant in soil

If you look on page 237 of the ref, it has a code 'II'. The key is given on page 224. Took me a while to ferret them out... Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:39, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

References

• No dead links

On hold

Well done on writing the fifth millionth article, I didn't realise what I stumbled on after I took the review! This is a well written and comprehensive article, although I spotted a couple of minor things. I'm not that knowledgeable in flora, so please forgive me if I made any misunderstandings. Once all of the above are addressed then this should be good to go. JAGUAR  19:29, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for addressing them! The article has improved a lot and now meets the GA criteria. JAGUAR  20:12, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

Ecology

The section on ecology requires clarification or is arguably bias. I would have assumed that individuals were previously destroyed during regular 'fine-grained' fire management, presently classed under the opprobrium "bushfires", and that new plants emerged from the seed bank. I have not accessed the source used to cite this section, but the title suggest that the authors are reporting their observations after fires and not implying regeneration is the result of haphazard episodes. Additionally, the section first discusses the species without citation, but the nominate subspecies is the one presumably mentioned in the article of Clark et al (two separate sources for same article, the second contains a deadlink).

The deadlink is due to the Royal Botanic Gardens moving all their files to different web addresses....thought I'd caught them all. I am not sure what you're getting at about natural bushfires vs fire management but a fire is a fire - eventually yes, if intervals are too short then it can lead to species extinction etc. I don't think fire intervals have been studied with this species. I'll get to work on fixing the link. The first sentence could be cited by any of the articles as it is obviously a fire-prone habitat (pretty much like saying "the sky is blue"). Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:00, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

On that paper, P. t. terminalis is listed on page 237. The 'II' means that it is killed by fire and regenerates from a soil borne seedbank. Actually I am glad I read that again as it does not discsuss fire interval with this species but there is a warning about too-frequent fire intervals on page 227. Now added. This is what you mean I take it? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:11, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

My concern—not very elegantly stated—is that the section implies (inadvertently) that the species can regenerate after bushfire (a 'natural' disaster) rather than being part of a fire managed ecology (with appropriate intervals, or it wouldn't exist, as you pointed out). I suspect that the latter is the case, because infrequent and uncontrolled high intensity fires are likely to damage seedbanks. What I am saying is unreferenced so it is unhelpful, forgive me, this is just my current hobby-horse.

My hope was to find a way to avoid stating what the cause of any fire was in this high profile article, I don't think 'bushfire-prone' does that. cygnis insignis 03:50, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

See I think "bushfire" implies a slightly more natural entity than "fire"....Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 09:50, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

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