Talk:Peripatetic groups of Afghanistan

Jat= Gypsy. In Dari

Hello user:Uanfala, I’ve seen you revert the included material in both this article and the one of the Inku language. The source I cited talks about the specific terms used for Gypsy’s in Persia/Greater Iran and lists Jat for “Afghanistan/Khorasan”. I personally speak the Persian language as my native one and have lived for years in Afghanistan, the term Jat refers to Gypsy’s, that’s the case in Afghanistan at least. It isn’t restricted to those Afghan Jats, Gypsy’s in Europe are also called Jats in Dari and Pashto(at least among Pashtuns in Afghanistan, not sure about Pakistan), it really just means Gypsy for people from Afghanistan. The source from Iranica is also stating this too. Something like that is essential and has to be mentioned in the article, hence why there were multiple previous attempts by other users to include it which you’ve reverted. Best regards--Xerxes931 (talk) 20:20, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Re this: as far as I can see, the only thing the source has on this topic, is the mention of "jat" in a list of a dozen or so regional words for gypsies. It only states that it's used in Khorasan, Afghanistan. First off, it's a bit of a jump from this statement to the one that you're making – that jat means "gypsy" in Dari. Now more to the point, I'm not aware of any gypsy-like groups in Khorasan other than the ones this article is about. Unless there's something I'm missing, your addition to the text is tautological: given that the text already establishes that the peripatetic groups are known as "jat", your addition effectively repeats that backwards by saying that "jat" is a name for peripatetic groups. The only difference is that it introduces the term "gypsy"; it may be tempting to call the jats "gypsies" but as most of the sources of this article emphasise, the analogy can be misleading, as the jats occupy a somewhat different social and conceptual sphere than the gypsies that are found among the settled populations in the west. And if indeed the word "jat" is used by Dari speakers for the European gypsies, that's just a piece of trivia that is outside the scope of this article. – Uanfala (talk) 20:28, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

user:Uanfala I understand that, however it needs to get clear that the analogy to Gypsy‘s or the common understanding of Jats meaning Gypsy is a thing among Afghans, otherwise you will constantly have Afghans jumping on this article. Just „peripatetic“ is too broad, there are countless of nomadic people in Afghanistan who do not fall under the Jat or Gyspsy-alike category.--Xerxes931 (talk) 20:43, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Are there any peripatetic groups of Afghanistan other than the ones covered in this article? Mind you, the word "peripatetic" refers to a very specific kind of nomad, it doesn't include for example goat-herding pastoralists, or modern-day corporate travelling salespeople. Ideally, this article will have some decent discussion of the whole "gypsy" business, but that would require quite a bit more context. Until that is added, I don't see casual mentions of the term as being helpful. – Uanfala (talk) 21:14, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

We can surely add more context to it too, however it’s urgently necessary to add the Gypsy meaning to the article, because that is the basic and common understanding among the Afghan population and their languages, completely excluding the word Gypsy doesn’t seem right to me. How would you suggest to put it in if not the way I did? Maybe it wasn’t the best way I did it but as I said imo it has to be mentioned in some context in the lead at least, due to the linguistic meaning. Pining some Persian-speakers to add their opinion on this User: شاه عباس User:HistoryofIran user:Cabolitae Xerxes931 (talk) 23:27, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

Well, Xerxes931, if you'd like to dig up the works of Aparna Rao and others, and then write up a paragraph about how the peripatetic groups were previously sometimes labelled as "gypsies" and why that term is not appropriate, then feel free. In such a context it will not be completely out of place to mention what other referents the Dari word jat might have. Otherwise, I don't see anything particularly "urgent" in throwing in random factoids. – Uanfala (talk) 17:07, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Hi User:Xerxes931, Hi User talk:Uanfala: I can confirm that in Afghanistan, we use the word Jat in Persian language (Farsi/ Dari) for both the local Gypsy population (in Afghanistan/Pakistan/India) as well as for any Gypsy groups in the world (e.g. I would use use the word Jat for the Gypsies in Europe).

By the way, the name Jat is by itself not derogatory; but the name Shadibaz (which is used in the article) is not only derogatory, but is also incorrect to be used as a name for a Gypsy group. Shadibaz simply means those who take monkeys to the city and perform dance or other performances on them, as a source of income. It's more of a name of an occupation rather than a name of a social group.

Finally, I have a serious objection to listing Baloch as gypsies. Baloch are settled population in Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Iran. They by no means could be categorized as gypsy. Not only they do not have nomadic life, but they are also a settled ethnic group in this region similar to other minority groups such as Sindhis or Pahsayi. Perhaps one group that could be listed as gypsy - because of having a nomadic life and being unsettled populations like other Gypsy groups - is the Kuchi of Afghanistan and Pakistan. Cabolitæ (talk) 05:33, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

But the Baloch people are not listed here as peripatetic. – Uanfala (talk) 17:33, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

It is actually. See the table in the Ethnic Groups section. I notice that the description says that it refers to only a small group of Baloch people in general, but I think it is misleading. It would be better to call them Chalu (as the description in the article mentions it as an alternate name for this group), to ensure that the readers do not confuse it with the wider Baloch group. I do reckon that the word Chalu is quite popularly used in Afghanistan for the gypsies, and is also a popular derogatory term. Cabolitæ (talk) 06:51, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Well, this group as listed as "Baluch" because that's the common name that the sources have used. Maybe the confusion can be avoided by adding a note to the table entry, with similar content to what is said in the article section? – Uanfala (talk) 19:56, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Article title

The use of Jat within an academic context is not a derogatory term as demonstrated by multiple sources which use the term itself as a title. These are in the article itself.RuudVanClerk (talk) 12:06, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Just checked this sourced: “Marginality and language use: The example of peripatetics in Afghanistan”. Jat is a sub-group within the Peripatetics of Afghanistan. The article was originally created covering the Jats of Afghanistan. For periopatetics in general, a separate article should be created. RuudVanClerk (talk) 12:14, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

There's no single group called "Jat". This is just a pejorative term for any peripatetic group, and none of the ethnicities described here use it for themselves. I'm not sure I get your point about not all peripatetics being called "Jats". Which ones are they? Are they included in this article? – Uanfala (talk) 12:30, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Yes there is an issue with them not referring to themselves as Jats however all sources use that term and we can only go of what these say. My point was, is the scope of the article relating to peripatetics in general or those that are designated as “Jat” because the article contents relate to the latter only. Thanks RuudVanClerk (talk) 12:40, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Looks like the use of the term “Jat” is more complicated then merely being a derogatory term as some groups call related groups as Jat:

https://www.afghanistan-analysts.org/en/reports/context-culture/citizens-finally-but-no-place-to-settle-the-magats-one-of-afghanistans-most-marginalised-minorities/ RuudVanClerk (talk) 12:43, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

I've had a browse at this link, and it states that Ethnographer Aparna Rao [...] introduced the term “peripatetic” for them. It is now most widely used in academia. This is also the term used in the article's sources (except for the Encyclopedia Iranica entry, but even that it explicit that the term is an ambiguous label and not an ethnonym). I still don't get your point about the non-overlap of the terms "Jat" and "peripatetic of Afghanistan". Which ethnic groups would be included in the article if it used one title but excluded if it used the other? – Uanfala (talk) 13:06, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

The Maldars and Kochis/kuchis would be good examples of ethnicities are live nomadic/Peripatetic lives while not being classed as “Jat”. As I said, a separate article would need to be made for peripatetics in Afghanistan generally. RuudVanClerk (talk) 13:18, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Oh that! The Kuchis are not peripatetic, they're pastoralists. That's the whole point of the term "peripatetic" here: it distinguishes the service-providing itinerants of low social status from the traditionally more respected nomadic herders. – Uanfala (talk) 13:40, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the correction. But that still doesn’t address the Maldars nor does it address the sources detailing other peripatetic groups with Jats being just one section of them. We can only go of what the sources say I am afraid. RuudVanClerk (talk) 13:54, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Maldar is another name for the Kuchis, as made clear in the Wikipedia article and also explained in the page you've linked above. Otherwise, you're absolutely right that we should only follow the sources, which in this case means that I'll have to revert your changes (as explained in the section below). – Uanfala (talk) 16:02, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

Back to the main question: using "Jats" in the title wouldn't be completely crazy: that's done, for example, in the Encyclopedia Iranica entry. However, given that virtually all of the core literature prefers the descriptive term "peripatetic groups" (or "nomads"...) and that "Jat" itself is highly pejorative, the case against the recent move is clear. I'm going to move the article back. – Uanfala (talk) 16:02, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

Origins and the May 2022 changes

A few days ago a reference to Pstrusińska's book was slotted into the article's first sentence. The full citation is:

• Pstrusinska, Jadwiga (2013). Secret languages of Afghanistan and their speakers. Newcastle upon Tyne: Cambridge Scholars Publishing. ISBN 978-1-4438-6441-1.

Its insertion was apparently done in an attempt at justifying the use of the term "Jat". This does not need justifying: every single source with more than a paragraph on those peripatetic communities will have some mention of the term. I'm going to remove it as an in-line ref, but I'm not sure if we're going to need it in the bibliography: the relevant parts of the text (say, pp. 103–5) are mostly a literature review that regurgitates the points already made by Aparna Rao. There may be a case for keeping it as a tertiary source, or at least as a "further reading" entry (it's got some nice content about the secret languages spoken by some of the peripatetic groups).

Now about the following sentence:

In neighbouring South Asia, the term Jat refers to a large cluster of agriculture castes, some especially in the Balochistan are connected with camel breeding and herding, and it is possible that the Afghan Jat are descended from peripatetic communities that entered Afghanistan in the company of these nomadic Jats, and acquired the name by association.

References

The first ref is to a 1910 half-page note by P.M. Sykes. Two observations are made there – that there's a social group of Balochistan called "Jat" which specialises in camel husbandry, and that, unrelated to this fact, in the Persian of Sistan the word jat refers to gypsy-like communities. As far as I'm aware both are completely uncontroversial, but they're not relevant in this article. The core statement made in the Wikipedia article – that the "Jats" of Afghanistan got that name from the camel herders of Balochistan – is not made by that source (and that source wouldn't meet WP:HISTRS anyway), so that's out.

The second reference, which was recently added, is to p. 83 of Aparna Rao's 1982 monograph. I've had a look, and what that page contains is detailed descriptions of the contemporary seasonal migration patterns of some groups among the Ghorbat. It doesn't have anything at all on the origins of the "Jats".

I'm going to revert the recent additions and remove that last sentence as unsourced. I'm planning to expand that section with a bit more content on the nomenclature (I should hopefully find the time in the next couple of days). As for the origin of the name "Jats", the name-by-association hypothesis isn't totally implausible, but we can't keep it unless we've got sources. I don't recall seeing anything definitive about the etymology of the word so far, the only exception being Pstrusińska's suggestion (2013:104) that it derives from jāti, but this leaves a lot unanswered and in this form isn't very credible. Better not to have any content than to have content that's dubious. – Uanfala (talk) 15:59, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

Request for comment

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Procedural close. Disagreements between two editors should be address through WP:3O before opening an RfC. ––FormalDude talk 02:56, 23 May 2022 (UTC) (non-admin closure)

---

I am requesting an additional viewpoint in relation to this issue. Both involved parties (including myself) disagree as to the title of the article. While I don’t have the right to discuss the other parties reasons, my own reasoning is that Jat is the common name of the topic of discussion and that peripatetic refers to a number of groups that are not necessarily Jats hence I am of the opinion that the article name should be kept as is. Most sources including the Encyclopaedia Iranica article and Aparana Rao’s seminal work which I have referenced also use the term Jat.RuudVanClerk (talk) 12:40, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

Taking a quick look at the edit history it seems the title was reverted back to its current title because "article titles shouldn't use derogatory names". Also, WP:UCRN says that articles should use commonly recognizable names. I don't believe "jat" is a common term, so I support keeping the article title as it is. interstatefive  (talk) - just another roadgeek 15:26, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

One of the main sources in this topic uses Jat in the title itself which is Les Ġhorbat d'Afghanistan. Aspects Économiques d'un Groupe Itinérant 'Jat'. Further to this Encyclopaedia Iranica has an entire article which Jat as its title:

https://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/jat

Peripatetics is also detailed in an above source as covering groups which aren’t Jat which this article was initially created to cover. RuudVanClerk (talk) 16:48, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Jat caste is not mentioned in any Hindu or Parsi book but it is said that some Jat castes were bandits like Dahiya and some Mlech who are called Massagetae, many sects originated in India are associated with Ikshvaku Kshatriya who considered Vasishtha brahmins as kul-guru, & There is no mention of jatts in any book written by brahmins, nor in Avesta( book of Parsi people) ,in past timeline they entered in Sistan Sindh from central. Asia then came to today's Haryana Punjab after Arab invasion and stole the surname of many indian castes here like brahmins Atri surname, Khatris of khatree clan,& Chauhan Pawars of Rajputs etc.

In India, the caste that makes shoes/juta is called Jatav, so some people say that Jats were Chamars/cobbler of Central Asia. Gaur brahmin (talk) 13:52, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Stop spreading hatred against Jats, get a life. Rockarmy (talk) 19:25, 15 July 2023 (UTC)