Talk:Pedimental sculptures in the United States

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Suggested ground rules

doncram. Lockley. Carptrash. Another Believer. This list was inspired by another editor's contention to Carptrash that "there is no such thing as a 'significant pediment'," and blanking the section he had started. Carptrash changed the section heading to "Notable pediments ...", and it was blanked again.

A sculptured pediment is notable if it is considered significant enough to be documented by a source such as SIRIS, HABS, or a legitimate publication.
If it is created by a known artist, part of a building by a known architect, or has gained notability because of its age, artistic distinction, etc.
If it adorns the exterior of a building. SIRIS lists some pediments inside buildings -- a frame over a niche, etc. -- on tombstones (not even a mausoleum), and even on a piece of furniture.
If the sculpture is contained within the frame of the pediment -- not atop it or drooping off it (like Lorenzo de' Medici's tomb). Carved finials within broken pediments probably belong in the Pediment article.
That it IS sculpture -- not just ornament around a window or a decorative flourish.

Other suggestions/opinions? == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 13:36, 4 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I can't help but noticing,

that when these are arranged chronologically they start in Philadelphia. Coincidence or . . . . . . . . . ............ something else? Carptrash (talk) 20:35, 27 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

What else could it be? == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 20:37, 27 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Well, given as I am to conspiracy theory, . . . . ...........................Carptrash (talk) 21:18, 27 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Great discovery,

figuring out how to link (?) the various pediments in the same building. It looks great. Also, where did you find my Tippecanoe & Tyler Too pediment? Carptrash (talk) 18:34, 29 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I typed in "pediment" and "sculpture" on Wiki Commons and it came up among the results. I'd seen the formatting elsewhere, but didn't remember how to do it. == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 02:54, 30 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I just lightened up the Bronx Zoo ped, making it a bit easier to read. Carptrash (talk) 02:26, 30 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

VAST improvement! == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 02:54, 30 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Ha

Sort of funny. Even though the Women's Building was destroyed a couple of years before I was born, the image of the pediment is still one I uploaded. And I thought you were done with pediments for a while? Carptrash (talk) 03:16, 31 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Never underestimate my compulsiveness. And I worked in Walker H. == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 14:02, 31 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

a couple more

There's a lovely pediment sculpture on the Rush Rhees Library at the University of Rochester, reportedly done by a Ricci and an Ardolino, and there's another lovely pediment sculpture at the Rockfeller mansion Kykuit, credited to Francois Tonetti and perhaps finished by his wife.... are we going for a complete set? That would be a worthy useful goal. At one point a few years ago Carptrash & I counted 116 in the U.S. in total. --Lockley (talk) 21:59, 31 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Lockley: I've been telling BoringHistoryGuy that I was not going to empty out the Field Guide here, but he is like a terrier after a rat and just keeps digging out more and more of our stash. Perhaps it is time to let a few loose? I have been using my pictures from the Guide, but not yours, mostly because of the "whose picture is it" stuff that one can get into while loading them. Besides that, how's the wife and kids? Carptrash (talk) 22:03, 1 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Lockley. Carptrash. The terrier's vote would be No (at least for now). This article is only 6 days old, and there's no need to rush to fill it in. I'll keep going until I've exhausted SIRIS, which was down for most of today. Wait, and make a reasoned decision. == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 23:51, 1 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

BoringHistoryGuy and Carptrash -- no hurry then! Generally speaking Carptrash I think we oughta share more, yes, absolutely. At least we can provide a reasonable ballpark figure for the total number of pediment sculptures in the U.S. We have 116 in the Field Guide, we didn't list any without figural content, we probably missed a handful of east-coast private mansions, so -- 150 at the outside. --Lockley (talk) 00:15, 2 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Okay then, I'm just going to hang around, poke at the lede. Not a bad deal because my other choice is to go to Men's rights movement and talk about circumcision. Carptrash (talk) 00:51, 2 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Sacramento City Hall, built in 1909, i don't know the date of the sculpture group. According to Pediment article, a pediment can be "circulaire", so i gather this counts. --do ncr am 02:19, 4 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Carptrash has strong opinions on what is and is not pedimental sculpture, but this stays inside the frame. Thanks for catching Mississippi State Capitol. I guess I got careless skimming thru a SIRIS page of "Sculptor: Unknown." == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 02:25, 4 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have a strong opinion either way about this combination cartouche and cornucopia, it's mostly inside so that's fine with me. The Field Guide only does figurative pediments, this would probably not qualify, And, anyway, I don't make the rules here. Or almost anywhere. Carptrash (talk) 02:39, 4 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

what is enough?

Mulberry pediment with ornament No
Mulberry as a whole
a Carnegie Library in Guthrie, Oklahoma Done
First Congregational Church (Canandaigua, New York) Enough? "I say NO'" to garlands and swags"
Mt. Harmon, figurative: it's a pineapple, but in a broken pediment
National Academy of Sciences Done
National Academy of Sciences, from further back Done
Farmers and Merchants Bank (Geneva, New York)
Chase bank within Canandaigua Historic District
Colorado Consistory No. 1 (redlink for now), from my starting to look at List of Masonic buildings in the United States
Masonic Temple (Quincy, Massachusetts). See pediment above its front door, which is not framed in.
New Masonic Temple (St. Louis)
Masonic Temple (Kirksville, Missouri)
Devils Lake Masonic Temple, with swords
Dayton Masonic Center
Scottish Rite Cathedral (San Antonio, Texas)
George Washington is in the pediment of George Washington National Masonic Memorial in Alexandria, Virginia Done

Mulberry, a mansion in Berkeley County, South Carolina, has "ornament", that I submit is enough, but leave it to youse.
And a Carnegie Library in Guthrie, Oklahoma. There will be more List of Carnegie libraries ones, toose.
First Congregational Church (Canandaigua, New York) (redlink), likely in Canandaigua Historic District

Hmm, do you want to limit it to ~~figural(?)/figurative(?)~~ Figurative art sculpture? Or just require it to have something more than geometric? But there may really not be too many of all kinds. --do ncr am 02:48, 4 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, i thought figurative meant human or animal figures, but in fact a pineapple is figurative. I like that, excluding merely geometric designs. --do ncr am 02:51, 4 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, Mt. Harmon one is not for this list because it's protruding from a broken pediment?
National Academy of Sciences is figurative. But it's just one door or window, perhaps, not a pediment of a gable? Or is it okay. It is nice, anyhow. --do ncr am 03:08, 4 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Farmers and Merchants Bank (Geneva, New York) has an eagle. It counts. There will be more bank buildings. Yep, see the Chase bank building in Canandaigua. I find these both because i was looking for where the First Congregational Church (Canandaigua, New York) might be. Geneva and Canandaigua are covered in National Register of Historic Places listings in Ontario County, New York. I have scanned some other NRHP county list-articles without finding examples, but there are a lot (like 3000) county list-articles, and there are a lot of pediments in buildings in historic districts. So it's not 150, it's 1,000, perhaps? --do ncr am 03:20, 4 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Colorado Consistory No. 1 (redlink for now), from List of Masonic buildings in the United States. There are buildings in other fraternal orders, too, but the Masons have the grandest, biggest, most monumental buildings buildings.
Masonic Temple (Quincy, Massachusetts) has a pediment above its front door, although it is not framed in.
New Masonic Temple (St. Louis) definitely counts.
Masonic Temple (Kirksville, Missouri) counts or not?
Devils Lake Masonic Temple, North Dakota. See the swords behind the Masonic emblem.
Dayton Masonic Center has one pediment with just the Masonic emblem, i can't tell about what's in other pediment.]]
Scottish Rite Cathedral (San Antonio, Texas) with a Scottish Rite symbol?]]
George Washington is in the pediment of George Washington National Masonic Memorial in Alexandria, Virginia.

Stopping for now. There are one or two more marginal ones in List of Masonic buildings in the United States, and I haven't checked the weirdly split-out List of former Masonic buildings in the United States. I doubt there will be many or any in List of Elks buildings, List of Woodmen of the World buildings, List of Odd Fellows buildings, etc. --do ncr am 03:52, 4 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This section could use some formatting before it is useful (to me), Carptrash (talk) 04:58, 4 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

doncram. I reformatted this, putting images into galleries, to make it easier to read. == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 13:36, 4 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, @BoringHistoryGuy and BHG: --carptrash

Yes, thanks BHG for making the galleries, which I have just now combined into one. Sorry i am not used to trying to talk about sets of pictures, and have hardly ever formed galleries. --do ncr am 16:22, 4 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for posing these questions. I've been grappling with them myself for the past week. My opinions:

Mulberry - definitely yes --bhg

The NRHP nomination for this is most unhelpful. My guess is that the pediment dates from the c. 1800 remodeling. Certainly not from 1714. == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 15:49, 5 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Carnegie Library (Guthrie, Oklahoma) - definitely yes --bhg
First Congregational Church (Canandaigua, New York) - I'm dubious about this one --bhg
Mount Harmon - lovely, but no --bhg

I accept, based on comment below, that this is just a finial. --do ncr am 16:22, 4 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

A very fine finial. == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 16:42, 4 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

National Academy of Sciences or National Academy of Sciences Building- I waffled over this one, didn't include it, but could easily be persuaded --bhg

I believe that the sculpture here is attributed to Lee Lawrie. I would further assume that the pediments were created by his studio, if not exactly by his hand. I'll go with a YES here Carptrash (talk) 15:23, 4 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It really is nice. :) --do ncr am 16:22, 4 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, okay. I surrender. == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 16:42, 4 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Farmers and Merchants Bank (Geneva, New York) - definitely yes --bhg
Chase bank within Canandaigua Historic District - yes, age could add notability --bhg
Colorado Consistory No. 1 - definitely yes --bhg
Masonic Temple (Quincy, Massachusetts) - no pediment --bhg

Perhaps look again at that Quincy one? I meant what is over the first-floor doorway, not what is at the top of the building. --do ncr am 16:22, 4 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I see, but is there a pediment in there or is it just a triangular composition? == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 16:42, 4 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

New Masonic Temple (St. Louis) - definitely yes --bhg
Masonic Temple (Kirksville, Missouri) - I'd call that more of an Acroterion --bhg
Devils Lake Masonic Temple - more of a windowframe --bhg
Dayton Masonic Center & Scottish Rite Cathedral (San Antonio, Texas) - both qualify, but I wouldn't include them unless we know the sculptors --bhg

Other are free to disagree and weigh in. == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 15:17, 4 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

And I think we need an official moto for this endeavor. I suggest one or more of the following:

"Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.”
"Ave, Imperator, morituri te salutant" ("Hail, Emperor, we who are about to die salute you")
"Don't look back. Something might be gaining on you.”
"to the victor belongs the spoils”
Veni, vidi, vici (but in the plural)
“We have nothing to fear but fear its self.”
"We have nothing to offer but blood, toil, tears, and sweat,"
Something else.
Carptrash (talk) 15:01, 4 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Look on the bright side, we have more than 100 examples listed in just over a week. == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 15:29, 4 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

What's bright about that? It means after a month we'll have 400 examples and then what will we do? Carptrash (talk) 16:28, 4 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Go to Vegas, what else? == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 16:32, 4 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

List of former Masonic buildings in the United States offers a good model for breaking it up into states (in the future). The location arrow can suffice for now. == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 16:36, 4 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

For some reason

I can't upload images anymore, so should I start breaking this list down into states? Carptrash (talk) 01:10, 4 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think we need to break it down more. (D.C. has about a quarter of them.) I put the state name first in the location column, so pressing the location arrow will organize them by state. == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 01:35, 4 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

You smooth talking devil, you could talk me out of anything. Carptrash (talk) 01:40, 4 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Your money or your wife? == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 01:53, 4 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

We'll talk. Carptrash (talk) 02:40, 4 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Anti

Hey, you guys are hitting my watchlist! I might have to start the natural anti-list. :) --do ncr am 01:12, 4 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Unsculptured pediments in the United States? I see you started coords. Thanks. == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 01:29, 4 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Looking forward to further developments on this front. Perhaps a list or category (or both) of states that do not have memorials at Gettysburg? Carptrash (talk) 01:39, 4 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Aren't you overlooking the battlefield's Hawaii State Memorial? == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 15:38, 4 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The natural anti-list is ...(drumroll)... List of impedimental sculpture! (Based on what a friend thought I was talking about, when I asked them to name their favorite (or any) pedimental sculpture over the phone...they did well to eventually come up with the Elgin marbles.) Actually, from my browsing, there sure are a lot more empty pediments which really could hold sculptural groups, relative to the few that have them. You would think there'd be a niche market (pun was accidental) for papier-mâché or styrofoam or inflatable sculptures attached by velcro or whatever that could fit into them semi-permanently, or seasonally, or the like. --do nor am 16:37, 4 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This could be the growth industry of the second half of the second decade in the second millennium since you-know-who! In fact, I am selling stock in the LETS MAKE IMPEDIMENTAL SCULPTURE GREAT AGAIN CO. Ltd. LLC, so please get in touch . Carptrash (talk) 18:46, 4 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

LOL, i like that. :) Modern impedimental art would surely be different, with characters recognizable to us. Superheroes? Giant wall-mounted fishes? --do nor am 19:41, 4 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Supreme Court Justices? Carptrash (talk) 21:44, 4 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I just cut Frederick Triebel out

I am removing Triebel as a sculptor at the Illinois State Memorial in Vicksburg, MS because (1) the standard reference, Kvaran & Lockley’s Field Guide to Architectural Sculpture in the United States does not mention him and also (2) because Cooley, Adelaide N. The Monument Maker: A Biography of Frederick Ernest Triebel, The rediscovery of a forgotten American sculptor Exposition Press, Hicksville NY, 1978, does not include it. He has other work at Vicksburg, but not the Illinois Memorial. Carptrash (talk) 02:08, 4 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Fine. He's in the SIRIS entry, but I've found plenty of mistakes there. I gave up on a couple minor works when I couldn't make sense of the entry or find an alternate reference. == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 02:19, 4 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It is possible that he did the acroterion eagle here, but since it is not in the pediment, it's out anyway. Carptrash (talk) 02:34, 4 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

list v list

Hi @BoringHistoryGuy: -- I'll be comparing your list to ours, and the results will emerge in good time. You're still working off a list from SIRIS, yes? I'll stand by that estimate of no more than (eh...) 150 existing pediments in the U.S. including sculpture with human figures, our working definition. Gotta draw the line somewhere. In the meantime let me offer what is probably an extreme example, the most recent in the U.S., and a lovely elaborate example from Raymond Kaskey. --Lockley (talk) 04:20, 4 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

What a beautiful façade. Thanks. == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 13:41, 4 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

a bunch more to consider

Masonic Temple (Prescott, Arizona) (with pic by me :) ), ~~I say yes --doncram (11/4)~~ okay, no, it is just decoration. --doncram (11/30)
Highlands Masonic Lodge ... not enough --doncram
Nice Masonic eye with blue iris and white sclera, upon gold sunburst, at Grand Opera House (Wilmington, Delaware), i'd like to say yes to this one --doncram
Mount Hood Masonic Temple, another one with simply the Masonic symbol in relief sculpture. There are so many of these that this category deserves mention in the text of the article (even just saying that the list excludes this type). --doncram
Sort of like a pediment, with an Elk head, a contributing building in St. Charles Historic District, i guess not --doncram (Here, the elk head is a sculpture)
~~I say yes to this~~ Elk head, at Elks Club (East Liverpool, Ohio) --doncram / but, hmm, it looks like it is a real elk's head, mounted, not a sculpture, so no. --doncram
One example of a clock in a pediment; there are fairly many of these so I think they deserve mention in the text, as being excluded. Also mere Federal-style windows
Newport Artillery Company Armory --doncram
Industrial National Bank (redlink), it was demolished. Photo used in former NRHP-listings of Newport County. HABS document here covers it briefly, page 8 of PDF, HABS RI-337 Thames Street area study, labelled page 7. There is an interior photo of the bank available, too. Not much for an article on it, so far. :( It was originally "Newport Trust Company", located at 303 Thames Street, at Commercial Wharf, in Newport. --~~~~ Postcard image of it available here. There was "trouble" about the new building on Thames Street, in NYT coverage in 1902.
Inyo County Courthouse, California --doncram
:Added to table, 11/30. --doncram
Kings County Courthouse, California --just floral flourishes, so no? --doncram
DeKalb County Courthouse Illinois has humans (not in table)Kvaran & Lockley describe this pediment as spinach, but the putti make it a maybe carp
Kankakee County Courthouse Illinois humans (not in table). Added Done
Dubuque County Courthouse Iowa with eagles? and/or humans? Done
~~Greene County Courthouse Iowa humans~~ (in the list already)
Plymouth County Courthouse Iowa eagle
Ventura County Courthouse, possibly the pediment over the doorway, can't see well enough --doncram
~~Old New Haven Courthouse, CT, perhaps in the list-table already --doncram~~ (in the table already)
Ben Hill County Courthouse, Georgia, was this once painted, perhaps? --doncram
Bleckley County Courthouse, Georgia: Curtains, cartouche(?), torches...enough? but i am skipping others like this --doncram
skipping ones like this Meriwether County Courthouse
Old Fannin County Courthouse?, Georgia ...enough? --doncram
Eagle, in Marion County Courthouse?, Georgia --doncram
Georgia peaches, in Peach County Courthouse? --doncram
Another low-relief one, perhaps the seal of the county? Pulaski County Courthouse? GA --doncram
I will skip low-relief cornucopia like this one Stewart County, GA --doncram
~~Fort Wayne Indiana Courthouse has several human figurative art pediments~~ Already there as Allen County CHcarp
~~Boone County Courthouse? Indiana with human figurative art pediment --doncram~~ (in the table already)
~~Tippecanoe County Courthouse? Indiana with human figurative --doncram~~ (in the table already)
Vigo County Courthouse? Rooster or peacock? --doncram Added to article, with photo of a different pediment including a person. --~~~~
Benton County Courthouse with figure that breaks out of pediment, i think this should count --doncram
Augusta County Courthouse, relatively high relief, gargoyle heads, etc, i think yes? --doncram, and to me this is "ornamentation, and I suggest NO carpster
Humacao District Courthouse?, relatively high relief --doncram
Star, in Deaf Smith County Courthouse?, Texas --doncram
Calhoun County Courthouse? Alabama --doncram Done
Eagle, in Federal courthouse in Topeka KS --doncram
gilded(?) eagle, standing out from the pediment of Goshen Academy. --doncram (I eventually say NOT to include this one, as it is just an eagle sculpture bolted onto the building, not scaled for or otherwise designed for the pediment. --doncram)

Here are all the remaining Masonic ones, and an Elks one or two (and no contributions found from list-articles of Knights of Pythia, Knights of Columbus and other fraternities) that can be identified from photos in their list-articles. And I have scanned through the geographically-organized NRHP list-articles for states of Delaware and Rhode Island. And I have scanned all of current main List of courthouses in the United States (and split out Texas and Nebraska sublists) (but this covers just state and county and local courthouses, and many pics are yet to be uploaded to it from linked articles). Omits Federal courthouses so far in separate lists, and omits Alabama and other split out ones Note many buildings don't have photos, and this doesn't cover many buildings in historic districts. And I make mistakes, this is far from perfect review of available pics.

I signed my comments in pic captions; bhg, carptrash, anyone else can add your comments in pic captions too? --do ncr am 18:54, 4 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The good news is that when you say YES to a building you get to add it to the list. But I'll toss in some opinions too Carptrash (talk) 19:05, 4 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

NOTE: I moved the gallery for this section to above the comments, and moved the Suggested Ground Rules to the top of the page.

I'd like to see this article go for quality over quantity; to make this a serious list of works of art. We can't prevent an editor from adding the decorated porch of her/his house, but I suspect that if we encourage reasonable standards most editors will respect them. And I hope we can be proud of our work. == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 21:02, 4 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

One of the things Corrado Parducci talks about from back in the 1920s is the difference between figurative sculptors and ornamentalists. I'd like to leave the ornamentalists out of here. So that's cartouches and garlands and swags and acanthus leaves and even the occasional cornucopia. Storing them here is fine but if we make to big a deal here we are going to attract the very same folks who (in my opinion) drove us out of pediment and by doing so allowed BHG to create a thing of wonder and beauty. Carptrash (talk) 21:50, 4 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'd really like to hear more about what Parducci said. Could he be quoted in this article, towards establishing tone of what's to be included or not? --do nor am 02:11, 7 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Doncram: Here is what Parducci Says, nothing to do with pediments

(1) They employed about fifteen artisans. They were from casters to sculptors, ornamentalists. They also did carving. (2) Richie (actually, Ulysses Ricci) —that’s Ulysses Richie—he got a lot of ornamental work besides sculpture, (3) I remained with DiLorenzo because DiLorenzo was an ornamentalist and I was more interested in the sculpture. (4) You know, architectural decoration always had some figure work, ornamental work. (5) At the Beaux-Arts, they had classes both in sculpture and in ornament. (6) Ulysses Richie. . . . The work is almost ornamental; it has some [Pompeian; Pompaigne] character figures in it. And DiLorenzo did the ornamentation on that and Richie made these very delicate figures. (6) Well, it depends. There are different levels, you see. There are specialists in just ornaments, and specialists in figures, and there are those that did both,

Not sure how the formatting for this should be, but, oy well. Carptrash (talk) 01:00, 12 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

What about eagles (or other birds, esp. as it's hard to tell them apart)? These seem more significant to me than cornucopia, garlands, escutcheons whose symbolism varies and which seem more decorative. I see eagles like on Goshen Academy (i just added its pic above) as similar to Lady Liberty. Maybe from the frequence of its usage, some reverence of it as a symbol has been beaten into me, while I don't respect a cornucopia or an escutcheon that are only nominally a symbol of something or other. The Bald eagle article says it is U.S.'s national bird and national animal and is on the Great Seal of the United States. Similarly, I think of the Eye of Providence (which appears on flip side of Great Seal of the U.S.) as more serious than garlands, etc. I'm trying to be honest about why garlands seem relatively frivolous, but pediments with eagles should rank like pediments with Liberty. --do ncr am 02:11, 7 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Here's another one, Elk head sculpture in pediment (or coming out from it?) at Elks Temple (Tacoma, Washington), from 1916 building designed by Ecole des Beaux Arts-educated E. Frere Champney (see page 10 in Gallacci, Caroline and Patricia A. Sias (December 23, 1977). "National Register of Historic Places Inventory/Nomination: Old City Hall Historic District". National Park Service. Retrieved December 5, 2016.). By the suggested criteria, I think but am not positive this qualifies. The building and its architect but not the specific pedimental sculpture are covered in the NRHP nomination document for the historic district that it is in. --do ncr am 02:57, 6 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Philadelphia City Hall is covered with sculptures, some draped across top of pediments (so excluded by suggested rules for this list-article), but also there are some within curved pediments above the third level on the north and south facades. --do ncr am 21:48, 7 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

file:Bleckley County Courthouse, Cochran, GA, USA.jpg (03).jpg For what it is worth, here is a closer photo of the Bleckley County courthouse. Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 02:59, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

WikiWarning

Tip 17: Do not get so involved in any wikipedia process that you burn your lunch. Carptrash (talk) 19:15, 4 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Tip 9: Or alienate your family. Whoops, too late! == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 15:03, 5 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Tip 33.5: Don't panic if your name appears in a Talk page section title. --do ncr am 00:57, 7 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

doncram

doncram. Lockley. Carptrash. Another Believer. A big thank you to do ncr am, for reorganizing the list by location. Organizing it by building may have made sense at the beginning when we only had 11 sculptured pediments. We now have 120! (some are listed collectively in the Sculpture column). == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 15:14, 5 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

A better way to measure is that we have 94 BUILDINGS with sculptured pediments. == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 20:34, 5 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, thanks for the recognition. Whew that it was not negative! I have felt sometimes like i was being used as target practice. :( And I am sure I didn't finish the job of re-ordering, i.e. that others helped. After state then city, it's not as obvious how to organize (within city). Hmm, New York City is done nicely, by borough, I see. If there are still ties, perhaps they could further be organized geographically left-to-right, once coordinates have been added. It's 94 already? Wow. --do ncr am 01:07, 7 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

You're welcome. I appreciate your contributions. I think I found a way to differentiate NYC without starting a separate table. == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 14:55, 7 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

more to come

doncram. BoringHistoryGuy. Carptrash. Another Believer. Hi everybody.... there's about 35 more pediments in the U.S. that could go on the list. Give or take.

Seven belong to buildings that have been razed, including a couple of vanished world's fairs. But at least one is important in the history, Karl Bitter's Bank of Pittsburgh. Wanted to get your opinions on whether it's fair to rule the fairs out. I think so. We could be here all day, counting the pediments at the 1895 Cotton Extravagopolus or whatever it was.

Eight are additional county courthouses: Nueces County, Texas (the weakest example), Sedgwick County, Kansas, Passaic County, New Jersey, Crawford County, Ohio, Lafayette County, Wisconsin, Sibley County, Minnesota, Utah County, Utah (a very good one), and Shelby County, Tennessee, a must-have.

And a bunch of others, the New Orleans City Hall is in there, a few banks, churches, schools, the Masonic Temple in St. Louis, etc. I'll continue to write those up. Adding all these to the existing format may (opinion) or may not be ideal. Might get long. I'll happily work with whatever you all think about splitting out sections & pages or not. All in the spirit of "oh man check that out!", and a quiet happy election day to US'ers --Lockley (talk) 19:37, 8 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'm in favor of world's fairs being included, just as I'm in favor of demolished buildings. (We already have 2 demolished buildings.) World's fairs might work as a separate table (as could demolished buildings).

I think there were 2 state capitol pediments with minor figurative sculpture that I skipped. I guess they should be included for completeness's sake.

At one point, I thought we could create separate tables (not you, Terrence Rattigan) for states. That seems like less of a good idea now, since we'd lose the ability to easily group the pediments by year, sculptor, architect, etc. The grouping-by-state works well. D.C. has so many pediments (and is not a state) that a stand-alone table seems okay. == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 20:14, 8 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I've got some slides of the Shelby Co CH somewhere. Carptrash (talk) 03:49, 9 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

For when it is needed. Shelby CCH Carptrash (talk) 21:59, 9 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks much Carptrash. That's a pretty good composition. I've been looking at how some of these include figures of various sizes, to help fill this weird triangular space. Putting a short four-year-old kid in the middle, that's a good idea, huh? --Lockley (talk) 23:00, 9 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Lockley Rhind was a pretty cagey old coot, here I also like the Sphinx in the corner. This is a "History of Law" series of pediments, and what does Egypt have to do with that? Well, it looks good. Carptrash (talk) 20:46, 16 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Pedimental or no?

doncram. Lockley. Carptrash. Another Believer. What do you folks think of this? In my opinion, it's more a decorated gable than a pedimental sculpture. Does it belong here? == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 13:23, 16 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The Field Guide to Architectural Sculpture in the United States, or the revised edition, The Field Guide to Architectural Sculpture in the United States and Canada, does not, as a rule, include such examples. However, Rules are made to be Broken, (some pediments are also made broken, but that's a discussion for another day) so I see it as your call. Carptrash (talk) 16:25, 16 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

To my eye that's a distinctly separate format, coming from a northern European brick & terra cotta lineage, monochrome, flat to the wall, low relief, and usually decoratively carved rather than figural. The best medieval example I can find is here in northern Germany. However. As if to bedevil this definition from the grave Frank Furness had a number of big honking gable carvings down the long train-shed side of the Broad Street Station in Philadelphia that ARE deeper relief and ARE figural and ARE more enclosed. Are those pediment sculptures? I personally don't think so but I can't explain why not. (Some of the fun is in the variation in formats anyway.) --Lockley (talk) 18:09, 16 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. I deliberately left out those Broad Street Station gable reliefs by Bitter, but included his sculptured pediment over the entrance to the 15th Street tunnel that ran under the station. Bitter also did gable reliefs for the dormers of Furness's Jayne House (built for his niece Caroline and her husband).

I hope you folks have experienced the Furness Library. It is a series of thrilling spaces.

Okay, I think we're coming to a consensus: Decorated gables are (generally) not pedimental sculptures. == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 19:39, 16 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

tympanum vs. pediment, and archivolt

I'm a novice in this area, and I am sure that architectural terms are used incorrectly from time to time in sources, but I'm sure also that Wikipedia's definitions/articles on the terms are incomplete, if not incorrect, at times too. So when the Grant County Courthouse (Ephrata, Washington)'s NRHP nomination describes what's in the "typanum" (sic) as a Roman urn and other decoration, I am unsure if that's absolutely incorrect usage or not. According to Wikipedia's tympanum (architecture), a tympanum is only over a doorway. Clearly sometimes something over a doorway is a pediment, and sometimes it is not. When exactly is something a tympanum vs. when is it a pediment? Can it be both? Is there a continuum? What about the National Academy of Sciences example, discussed previously, what is that over the doorway? It really is nice, again, but also it doesn't really look like a pediment. Is it a tympanum?

Also, the tympanum (architecture) article uses the word archivolt as the surrounding of a tympanum, in a way that seems incompatible with the perhaps-too-narrow definition of archivolt in the archivolt article. To whom am I supposed to report this? --do nor am 22:25, 19 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Lots of times tympani appear over windows, so I think I'll start by fixing that. Carptrash (talk) 22:40, 19 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Carptrash. A number of the SIRIS listings describe the area within a pediment as a tympanum. My assumption is that this may be a colloquialism, technically incorrect and frowned upon by professionals: i.e. the way most museums now refer to "highboys" as "tall chests." == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 03:24, 20 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, y'all, for your learned consideration. But my urge is to tell on someone and get them into trouble somewhere....

Hmm. Merriam-Webster gives, for tympanum:

2a : the recessed usually triangular face of a pediment within the frame made by the upper and lower cornices
2b : the space within an arch and above a lintel or a subordinate arch

So perhaps we can/should be saying that pedimental sculptures are in (or on?) the tympanum. --do nor am 04:06, 20 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I think of the pediment as being the frame and the tympanum as being the space inside, if I think about it at all. So perhaps for the works that don't have a frame, such as the Lawrie work as the National Academy are not real pediments? This is getting pretty far into the fine print but is still food for thought on a Sunday morning. Carptrash (talk) 15:38, 20 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Here's a diagram that uses "Pediment (tympanum)" for the space within the frame. There are also sources that describe sculpture within a pediment as a "frieze." Rather than confuse readers -- when tympanum and frieze describe other, very specific architectural elements -- I'd prefer that this article stick to pediment.

One thing that attracted me to the list is the ability to compare and contrast how a wide variety of sculptors dealt with the design challenges imposed by the pediment's (usually) triangular shape.

I agree that the NAS entranceway is a hybrid, but its triangular shape (and your opinions) convinced me that it belongs on the list. == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 01:21, 21 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

U.S. Customs Building

~~I think the U.S. Customs Building listed at being at 14th St. NW & Constitution Avenue, but not wiki-linked, is the Herbert C. Hoover Building, or part of it.~~ On the West side of the Herbert Hoover Building, on 15th St. NW., there are FOUR pediments with sculpture that i can see in Google Maps streetview. And they are along a north-south line. Rather than there being two, with one being "eastern" and "western" as the table now describes. There are no pediments with sculptures on any other side of the building that I can see from "walking around it" using streetview. --do ncr am 02:52, 24 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, okay, I see the table has the Herbert Hoover Building and lists its four pediments. And I see by further "walking east" along Constitution that the two "U.S. Customs Building" pediments might be facing south onto Constitution Avenue, at opposite ends of a building, then there's the Andrew W. Mellon Auditorium (which has a pediment that is another entry in the table) is the center, and then there's another building like the "U.S. Customs Building" with two more pediments. I'm not sure if the table covers that building. Our table presentation should cover the five pediments in these 3 linked buildings along Constitution Avenue from east to west or from west to east, in order, together, rather than in rows separated by other stuff. And maybe for each pediment state which street it faces onto. --do ncr am 03:07, 24 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it is confusing. The 3 buildings share the same architect, but each of the 5 pediments has a different sculptor. == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 19:10, 24 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I am not locating a "U.S. Customs Building" in Washington at all. ? Carptrash (talk) 19:48, 24 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Carpie, does this help? "The Customs Service Building is formerly the Department of Labor Building.... it's the western building of a 'suite' of three connected buildings designed by Brown: Customs, the Departmental Auditorium, and the United States Interstate Commerce Commission. The three are connected by open portals, sort of neo-classic breezeways. This suite 'forms the southern wing of what was intended to be an enormous U-shaped group', and so connects with the Post Office Department Building. This accounts for the confusion of attribution between James Goode and SIRIS."

Will check after 20 lbs of turkey. Carptrash (talk) 22:12, 24 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Okay. Dept. of Labor, (Gurney) pediments by Sherry Fry, Albert Stewart, Wheeler Williams, Edward McCartan, and Edgar Walter. Carptrash (talk) 02:05, 25 November 2016 (UTC) I think we have them all, I might have pics of the two not so adorned. I need to be cautious about labeling, since I have messed up a few. Carptrash (talk) 02:14, 25 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Let's talk

I uploaded a couple of pictures, no problem. Then I got to the Kennedy Justice building and I uploaded two pictures, which have the names carved opn them, but I could not figure out how to do the split thing. That is to say, how to get two images for the same building. So here they are and hopefully one (or more) of you can take these pictures and put them in their respective slots. Thanks, Einar aka Carptrash (talk) 04:16, 25 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Done. == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 23:15, 25 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Life is good. Carptrash (talk) 23:25, 25 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Pan-American Exposition buildings

In addition to the already-listed Buffalo History Museum, the 1901 Pan-American Exposition included a Pantheon-like "Ethnology Building" with pedimental sculpture. It had "a pediment containing McNeil’s ethnological group, forming the decorative motive of the tympanum" above each entrance. Perhaps McNeil = Hermon Atkins MacNeil? See "The Ethnology Building" by George Cary, within the Art Handbook of the exposition, page 17. I can't make out too much detail in the illustration available. Is anything else available about this?

The Temple of Music had four sculptured groups by Konti over (not inside) its four pediments, by the way. The Horticultural Group had "an ample pediment ornamented with rich decorations in relief". --do ncr am 20:43, 13 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

inauguration

Which is the most Trumpian? How about the western pediment of the Robert F. Kennedy Department of Justice Building, Ars boni, "for the good of the state"? :) --do ncr am 13:31, 24 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Pedimental pelican or eagle?

I could use help with this: the NRHP document for Opelousas Historic District describes Union Bank and Trust building at corner of S. Court and E. Bellevue in Opelousas, Louisiana as having a pelican in its pediment, and no way, IMHO, it's an eagle. See it close up in Google Streetview (perhaps this link to Streetview will show it directly). Is there any possibility that pelicans were depicted that way in the past? --Doncram (talk) 09:59, 15 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sculptor (pediment) attribution at Saratoga Park

I've been researching another topic touching on the Park and have come across a reference that suggests the pediment at the Admin building (directly east of the Hall of Springs) is in fact a creation of Attilio Piccirilli and not, as is often suggested, George Snowden. "Hygeia and Aesculapius" (this is my first entry in wikipedia so I am finding my way...)

[1]https://archive.org/stream/in.ernet.dli.2015.177707/2015.177707.Attilio-Piccirilli-Life-Of-An-American-Sculptor_djvu.txt

LIFE OF AN AMERICAN SCULPTOR

BY JOSEF VINCENT LQMBARDO, Lltt.D. QUEENS COLLEGE PITMAN PUBLISHING CORPORATION NEW YORK CHICAGO ChrisTheOther (talk) 21:35, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]