Talk:Patel Dam failure

The Washington Post "publisher"

Is Jeff Bezos personally responsible, as owner of Nash Holdings for everything published by The Washington Post? I had assumed that, for the purposes of the "cite web" template the publisher would be washingtonpost.com or even just The Washington Post. And where does the "WP Company" (as per the WP article) and the editor Martin Baron fit into this corporate publishing jigsaw? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:53, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

In fact, User:ZeR0101MiNt, looking at the ref in question, I'm struggling to see where "Nash Holdings" is actually mentioned as the publisher. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:03, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

Hello Martin, I am not a 100 percent sure about this, but isn't the company which owns the newspaper the publisher? At least that's what the Template:Cite web states. In this case, the newspaper is owned by Nash Holdings, which is owned by Jeff Bezos. The wikilink itself redirects to the article of Jeff Bezos, where it is stated that the Washington Post is owned by him through his own private investment firm, Nash Holdings LLC. So I come to the conclusion, that the Washington Post is published by Nash Holdings, which in turn is owned by Jeff Bezos. ZeR0101MiNt (talk) 22:37, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

I don't know. I'm not that well-versed in the niceties of US company law. I am only asking since I have never seen this attribution before. And as I'm sure you will realise, the The Washington Post tends to be cited quite a lot at Wikipedia. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:42, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

I understand your argument, but just because people don't do something it doesn't mean that something isn't correct per se. ZeR0101MiNt (talk) 22:53, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

I'm sure. You need to raise this at a central location such as Help talk:Citation Style 1? Martinevans123 (talk) 22:56, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

It is probably best to consider it as an unessential addition. However, it is not a bad idea to also ask someone who has more knowledge in this particular area. ZeR0101MiNt (talk) 23:06, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

|publisher= is not normally used with periodicals; Washington Post is a periodical; the correct cs1|2 template for a newspaper is {{cite news}}.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 23:37, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

Further, see Help:Citation Style 1#Work and publisher and WP:CITEHOW.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 23:42, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation. ZeR0101MiNt (talk) 08:08, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

Yes, many thanks, Trappist the monk, I had assumed that The Washington Post was a newspaper (the article says it's "a major American daily newspaper"?) and so the format would be similar to The Aberdeen Times example. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:35, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

Name of Dam

There seems to be some confusion about the name of the specific dam which broke. There were seven dams on the Patel property, termed the "Patel Dams" as a group, though it appears that each did in fact have a specific name. The article currently says the dam that broke was the "Milmet" dam, but more recent news sources (like this) seem to suggest that the Milmet dam is actually one of the two other dams they are draining to prevent another break. Can't find a reliable source on what the dam that actually broke was named, but as most news sources are still referring to it as simple the "Patel Dam", I'm going to strip the "Milmet" label out of the article lead for now. Didn't want to start any potential edit war about it, so I'm putting this explanation here in advance. Anyone have any additional information about the name of the dam that actually broke? Kenmelken (talk) 16:50, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

• I was following the map made by the BBC to determine the location of the dam that burst. On Wikimapia that dam was labeled the Milmet Dam 11 years ago. It is associated with the Milmet Farm also labeled 11 years ago. From Wikimapia I infer that Patel has between 5 and 7 large rose farms, each associated with a dam. One wonders if each farm is set up as a separate business for either financial or legal reasons? Anyway, I suggest that at least one of the news sources is incorrect. Either the BBC mapped the wrong dam, standardmedia.co.ke got the wrong name, or Wikimapia got the wrong name and nobody has bothered to correct it in 11 years. Further complicating the issue, Solai is a township that is (by my best guess) at least 25 km on a side or 625 km². There are three or more clusters of buildings and Google labeled 2 (or 3) of them Solai. Abductive (reasoning) 14:02, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

  @Abductive: Yeah, I'm seeing even more conflicting reports today. Some are very insistent that the dam which burst is in fact called simply the "Patel Dam". Whether or not that is true, that appears to be the name by which it has been and is likely going to continue to be known most widely in the press. As for Solai, I do believe that is in fact accurate. Apparently Solai is officially a "location" in Kenya, which is more like a township than a town. It encompasses an area that may be composed of several villages, like the two which were destroyed by the flood. All this makes for very complicated geography, especially for a non-local like myself to understand. Kenmelken (talk) 17:00, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

  And those sources might be relying on this Wikipedia article for the name. Abductive (reasoning) 00:02, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

  I think this source finally gives the clearest outline of the names of the dams, and finally definitively states that it was the Milmet dam which broke. This contradicts earlier reporting from the same source that Milmet is one of the other dams they drained the next day, along with "Marigu". Now it appears that Marigu is not a name of any of the dams. Also, there were only 5, not 7 (which I'm about to fix in article). That source also finally provides estimates on the size of the dam which broke (200,000 cubic meters) and of the 5 dams collectively (600,000,000 cubic meters!). I feel better about this source and info, now that more time has passed to get the facts straight. Nice that it confirms also what you pointed out in Wikimapia. I'll put "Milmet" back into the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kenmelken (talk • contribs) 17:10, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

Number of deaths

@Kenmelken: Just letting you know, since you've changed the number of deaths, it's now inconsistent with the main page. ZeR0101MiNt (talk) 20:14, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

@ZeR0101MiNt: It was already, as it was previously saying 50 in the lead, and 47 lower down. I was trying to find something to confirm a latest number, and all the most reliable sources I'm finding now are saying 45, though no doubt it will end higher than that. I imagine by end of day the phrase "at least 47" listed on the main page will be officially correct again, though it is probably technically correct now. Not sure how to handle these changing-death count situations when ITN is concerned. Is there precedent? (I'm still pretty new around here). You are welcome to change it back if that would be more appropriate. Btw, thanks for all your help and clean up with the article! Kenmelken (talk) 20:22, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

I'm afraid I can't answer that question, tough I'm sure it has been discussed somewhere. But both 45 and 47 seem like credible numbers to me. Also, nice work so far, I hope you keep it up. ZeR0101MiNt (talk) 20:52, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

Infobox

Looking at other articles in Category:Dam failures, would it not be appropriate to add an infobox e.g "Infobox dam" or "Infobox flood", at least to contain the location map image? My recent addition was reverted with no explanation. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:59, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

I can't seem to get the date parameter to work. Can anyone else? Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:00, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

I had the same problem and couldn't get it to work either. I haven't done much with Infoboxes previously though. Also, wondering if the Dam infobox template might suit this better as we could list info about the type of dam (Earthen Embankment) and purpose/usage (Private).Kenmelken (talk) 18:04, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

Yes, that might be better. "Infobox:Flood" is a bit general, I think. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:18, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

Fair Use Image

Do you think that finding a fair use image can help with this article, as there is no free images in Commons at now? 廣九直通車 (talk) 12:27, 12 May 2018 (UTC)