Talk:Pano Bixhili

[1] That's an article written by Foto Bixhili, who is a descendant of the Bixhili family of Himara and a historian. This article part of a book he has written in recent years about Himara and Dhermi, so if the descendant of the family says his family isn't Greek and the sources don't support that either I think that the article should be moved to another title.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 09:17, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Untitled

Btw there are virtually no results for the Greek name [2], while there are more than 150 for Pano Bixhili [3]--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 09:21, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

lol. Try the Greek name. Actually some blogs you claim (like sqiptariforumi) are of course not an argument. Top graded source like Pappas (from Standford Uni.) can't be of the same value like some low level blogs you present. Please read wp:rs.Alexikoua (talk) 19:32, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

(unindent) http://www.google.gr/search?hl=el&q=%22%CE%A0%CE%AC%CE%BD%CE%BF%CF%82+%CE%9C%CF%80%CE%B9%CF%84%CE%B6%CE%B9%CE%BB%CE%AE%CF%82%22&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai= copy/paste the link and the only result you'll get is this article. Previously I didn't pay attention to the publishing house but it seems that once again its the Institute for Balkan Studies, which isn't rs. Btw to me soemone's descendant is much more credible than an Institute whose members write books about the "incomplete unity of Greece"[4].--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 20:56, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

The source per se is attackable as lacking RS blessing, but the secondary sources that it brings are very important and show that both Gjike Bixhili and Pano Bixhili were Albanians from Himare. Petro Marko's Interview with myself biography, shows that the Bixhili family was Albanian. --Sulmues ^(talk) 16:16, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

• (unident): You have been already instructed by administrators that "Institute for Balkan Studies" a governmentally sponsorred Insitute, is of hi credibility [[5]] (again the typical behavior by national advocatives)

• Blogs/forums you present are against wp:rs.
• We have 2 academic reliable sources [[6]] (the one is of Stanford University) and so far we have no serious contradicting arguments.Alexikoua (talk) 21:05, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Seems the Greek name was spelled wrong: [[7]], although blogs and forums can't be used here.Alexikoua (talk) 00:42, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Latest reverts

Majuru added a source, which deals the issue directly and Alexikoua reverted him, attributed his edit to me and then replaced it with a source that doesn't even say what he's attributing to it. Grigory Arsh, who is a philhellene and a honorable professor of the University of Athens, was not misused by Majuru, whose edit Alexikoua attributed to me.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 11:06, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Actually I reverted Zjar.s not Majuru.. (its really boring to spread misleading info), because this edit was poorly explained and contrary to the top graded bibliography used in this article that labels him "Russian official of Greek origin" (as I see from the talkpage its the second time the same user wants him Albanian without checking the bibliography).Alexikoua (talk) 11:11, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

No, Pappas has never written that [8]. Now please translate in English from Greek Το 1785 διορίζεται γενικός πρόξενος της Ρωσίας στην Αλβανία καί τή Χειμάρρα ο αλβανικής καταγωγής Πάνος Μπιτσίλης.. I want you then to explain how my edit was poorly explained. --— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 11:15, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

(ignore trolling). Seems you 'need' to check the bibliography of the article: the right url (it's more than a year inside this article) is this [[9]]. No wonder Bitsilis is mentioned as one of the first Cunsuls of Greek origin in this section (and Please: If you have a great desire to launch a new childich national campaign of wp:npa vios. this is not the place).Alexikoua (talk) 11:20, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

No, Pappas doesn't label him specifically a Russian consul of Greek origin as you claimed. In fact you can't extract any details on the ethnicity from Pappas's work since he says that he was a member of both the Albanian and later the Greek battallion and he only calls the family Himariote i.e no ethnic appellations. Now please translate the sentence from Arsh's work in English since that was your revert summary(source misrepresentation).--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 11:26, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Since top grated material labels him as "Russian Concul of Greek origin" things are clear. What you claim (he was a member of the Albanian and then Greek regiment) is unrelated to his origin: Suppose you have run out of arguments, after one year of efforts to make him Albanian (did I told you that I know Russian? your obsession to translate you a Russian text can be considered really childish)Alexikoua (talk) 11:40, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Since you don't want to translate it from the Greek(the sentence I asked you to translate was in Greek not in Russian) source I'll translate it: In 1785 Pano Bitsilis, of Albanian origin, became general consul of Albania and Himara. The other source says only Himariote. Enough said. Now please stick to the sources and don't WP:IDHT.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 11:45, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Did you miss a step here? Let me help you, you dont have the 'Greek' source you are talking about... (wikipedia isn't working that way). So, I would suggest you find it first, instead of launching nearly trolling activity or asking for other editors to find it for you, and then it would be time to prove what you have in mind.Alexikoua (talk) 11:57, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Alexikoua (talk) 11:57, 2 August 2011 (UTC) (unindent)Regarding that issue Arsh's other work cited is similar "бицилли"+албанец&dq="бицилли"+албанец&hl=en&ei=EOQvTvOXJ8eF-waIrOWJBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 12:04, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

(no snippet on this url) Since you know Russian (or might pretent to since you're asking another user to help you), where does it say that he is of Albanian origin? All we have about his origin is from Pappas, but it would be interesting to learn how Arsch describes Bitsilis (Pappas is very detailed on this issue).Alexikoua (talk) 12:22, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Since in past you agreed that Ekdotike Athenon and Vakalopoulos are rs (and you have access on them) it would be no problem to add some info about the Bitsilis' activities in comparison to the other Greek revolutionaries.Alexikoua (talk) 12:45, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Pappas say Himariote i.e no ethnic appelation. On the other hand on Arsch's work, албанец(Albanian) is a very precise label. Btw other Greek revolutionaries? Almost every Orthodox Christian who's who from the Balkans had some relation to the Filiki Etaireia at that time, including Karađorđe Petrović.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 13:02, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Quite weird you still insist, but unfortunately the section title is "Russian Conculs of Greek origins". On the other hand you need to study Russian because someone that was Concul of Himara and Albania for Russia doesn't mean he is 'Albanian'. I would also suggest you gain first access on this work and then express your thought about it.Alexikoua (talk) 14:15, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

(unindent)Maybe you should read the meaning of the term албанец[10] i.e please stick to the sources, don't WP:IDHT and don't insist again on source misrepresentation. Btw the precise details of the source will be added and the reverting of any relevant details from the article will be considered a case of tendetious editing.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 14:30, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Quite childish you insist on a source you don't even understand the language it is written. In general don't trust snippets written on a language you can't understand and especially don't trust online translators. For future reference a 'University of Stanford' published work says that he is of 'Greek origin' something that you should better not remove.Alexikoua (talk) 15:13, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

I undestand Slavic languages well enough to undestand the snippet. Pappas's doesn't say that i.e please don't attribute it to him. Btw the version you used was published by the Institute of Balkan Studies, a Greek publishing house which also translated and published Arsh's work in Greek. I'll add Arsh and if I translated Majuru's source wrongly then ask for a native speaker of Russian to translate it again and if his translation doesn't support my edits, then as I have done in the past I'll revert myself. I'll ask for a second translation and then make the edits.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 16:08, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

As I see he decleared himself 'Greek' very clear, can you please translate this (its somewhat archaic but its piece of cake for you): "Ετερος "Ελλην, διατελών εις τήν ύπηρεσίαν τής Ρωσίας, άντιτιθέμενος εις τόν Σωτήρην και διαβάλλων αύτόν μεταξύ τών Ελλήνων, ήτο δ Γεώργιος Παλατινός. There is also this [[11]] by Ekdotike Athenon: Συγχρόνως είχαν άρχίσει νά έπη- ρεάζωνται και νά φθείρωνται άπό τις διενέξεις τών Ελλήνων πρακτόρων τής Ρωσίας. Συγκεκριμένα, ό άντισυνταγματάρχης Πάνος Μπιτσίλης και ό Γεώργιος Παλατινός προσπαθούσαν νά μειώσουν τή δράση τοΰ Λουίζη (Σωτήρη). Alexikoua (talk) 16:34, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

I won't interprete primary sources, the meaning of which has changed over time. Btw when a source written during a military Junta, published by the state publishing house and the summary of its title is The nation under foreign occupation it's not RS regardless of the status of the publishing house 20 years later. I'll insist on using only sources without political inclinations. On the other hand, Arsh is labeled as philhellene by the Greek academic world and is a professor of the university of Athens in modern times. (Btw there's a reply system I use when there are many replies on a discussion: one reply per day, so I'll reply tomorrow to any comment)--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 17:00, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

• As Russian native speaker, I can confirm that Grigory Arsh calles Bitzilis “албанец”, which means “Albanian.” ~ aleksandrit (talk) 16:50, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

  Thank you for the translation.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 17:00, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

It seems this lunacy can't stop: Ekdotike Athenon wasn't written during the military junta (and not by the state off course) and is considered rs even by user Zjaritues: [[12]]. On the other hand God knows if this snippet part without context in Russian really refers to his ethnicity or to his position.

@Zjarri: If you have a serious objection about the present form of the article please be precise on this, but ignoring two serious works and placing instead a snippet you just managed to translate a single word (off course without context) can't be considered a serious argument.Alexikoua (talk) 21:15, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Please stick to what the modern sources state. A work published by the Greek state in 1975 isn't reliable. --— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 10:43, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

A work published by the Greek state in 1975 isn't reliable. Why I have the feeling that you are again into trolling action? If there is any problem with top-graded sources like this one please take it to wp:rsn, but remember that the same book was considered 'rs' from you as part of your national agenda.Alexikoua (talk) 11:01, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

By the way the work you claim to be 'more modern' is published in 1970 [[13]], I admit you are really enigmatic in what you try to prove.Alexikoua (talk) 12:03, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Regimento Cimarioto and Greek Family

Anny other NPV non-Greek sources to support the claim that he was "from a Greek family"? There is no clear cut edge between Greeks and Albanian Orthodox in those times. Of course Greek sources try to name him as Greek from a Greek family. It is convenient.

Also, I can't find any source or mentioning of the Regimento Cimarioto, which in fact was the Albanian Regiment of the Venetian Republic. So, it should be replaced unless there is a WP:RS to support it. Mondiad (talk) 19:30, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

As far I know there was no such unit in the Venetian army. The Russian Albanskoe Volsko can be probably translated as 'Albanian detachment'. Also note that 18th century definitions of Albanian&Greek should not be confused with their modern usage.Alexikoua (talk) 20:52, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

New and more reliable sources on the ethnic origin of the Bixhili family from Dhermi

Based solely on the work of Nicholas Pappas (1991), this article states that: Panos Bitsilis came from a Greek family background... Bitsilis clan was among the notable Greek clans that provided...

Neither of these two statements is accurate, and the assessment of Pappas not only wrong, but also outdated. In my opinion this is a grave misrepresentation not only for the history of the region, but also for the Bixhili family, who still live in Dhermi.

The first thing to consider is the family name. Pappas writes Bitsilis, however Xhufi, 2014, Arsh, 1963, Bixhili in 2004, 2006, 2007, 2010, Gregoric-Bon 2008 (referring to current inhabitants as well as the 19th century ones) and Vukaj 2015 all use Bixhili, Bigili, Бициллы. Thus, the Bixhili form appears in publications in 1644, 1785 (Pappas differs here), 1850 up to the 20th and 21st centuries, while Bitsilis only appears in the contested Pappas mention from 1785. As for the first name, Arsh, Vukaj and Bixhili use Pano rather than Panos.

The second issue is the family background and origin. The Bixhili clan is even today present in Dhermi, as stated by Gregoric-Bon 2008 and Vukaj 2015. Pappas' assessment that they were of Greek origin is contradicted by the Arsh, 1963 statement: "Pano Bixhili, an Albanian inhabitant of Himare in the service of Russia, was nominated...". Most importanly, recently surfaced evidence has proven the Pappas statement wrong, as Xhufi, 2014 demonstrates that since 1644, Gjon Bixhili (Giovanni Bigili in the letter), wrote to Venetian authorities "and so all of us Albanians, because we had suspicion... (e cosi tutti noi Albanesi, perche avemo sospetto...)".

I believe the new information together with the previously existing sources that were not mentioned here, are sufficient to demonstrate that the current version of the article is incorrect. I propose that the name be changed to Pano Bixhili and the origin of the clan be stated as "Albanian", however I will wait to see what other editors think and if any evidence against the above can be brought. Given the abundant historical attestations, it may be a good idea to have a page for the whole family/clan. Çerçok (talk) 19:19, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

You are confusing geographical terms with ethnographic ones. By the way the Bitzileios school was the first school (a Greek language institution) in Drymades/Dhermi founded by a member of the same family.Alexikoua (talk) 08:42, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

Please object with sources, not opinions. Thank you. Çerçok (talk) 08:57, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

And by the way, I already mentioned above, Gregoric-Bon 2008 refers to the founder of that school as Gjike Bixhili. Please take a look at all the sources I listed. Çerçok (talk) 09:41, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

So far this [[14]] returns no result by typing Bixhili.Alexikoua (talk) 09:49, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

It's ok I've found the correct url, Gjike Bixhili refers to the name of the modern Albanian school, I don't known why this can be used as an arguments that Panos was Albanian. Piros Dimas is still written as Piro Dima in Albania today this can't question his Greek ethnicity.Alexikoua (talk) 10:02, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

Gregoric-Bon says: "After three years of schooling in Kondraqa the children continued their education in the primary school Gjika Bixhili (built in 1850 by the initiative local man Gjika Bixhili) in the centre of Dhërmi/Drimades". This has nothing to do with the weightlifter. Please quit strawman arguments and actually read the sources. Çerçok (talk) 10:19, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

I wonder how this information can be helpful with 18th century Panos Bitsilis.Alexikoua (talk) 20:34, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

No need to wonder, just read what I wrote a few lines above. The overwhelming majority of the sources use Bixhili, and even a member of the clan itself used it in his communication with Venice. This is about the form of the name. While the information I provided regarding the Bixhili of 1644 is relevant for the origin of the family. Çerçok (talk) 21:16, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

• @Çerçok: place your edits and other can put forward their own ones. You don't have to ask anyone. If they can be disputed that can only be done so via bibliography and editing. Thank you.--Maleschreiber (talk) 06:00, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

Very weird as an argument, on the other hand I see a mountain of sources using the Bitzilis form [[15]]. Nevertheless we need to be precise about this personality. The article concerns a certain figure.Alexikoua (talk) 06:12, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

You are not taking this seriously. You did not even care to check if your google search results are correct and who is even being mentioned. One of the results is the Botwsana Population and Housing Census. I gave you a long list of bibliography referring to this specific family, and the original communication of its earliest attested member in 1644. Çerçok (talk) 07:50, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

The Bixhili family has a long history in Russia Пётр Михайлович Бицилли They would be surprised to know they are called "Greek" on English Wikipedia. In the 18th century documents from the russian empire, the two brothers Gjika and Pano Bixhili are called "noble Albanians from Epirus". Durraz0 (talk) 10:09, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

We need to avoid aggressive tone. I have provided solid arguments that simply by googling either the Greek or the Albanian form we can have several hits on this surname. The specific Panos Bitzilis, was a specific individual which was among the notable Greek personalities in Russian service. Pappas is a Standford professor and is qualified per wp:ACADEMIC, SECONDARY.Alexikoua (talk) 10:45, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

Other than force-reverting, until now you have provided nothing relevant. Your google search does not refer specifically to this individual or to the family. The overwhelming majority of secondary and reliable sources, including the ones Pappas cites, use Bixhili, and consider them Albanian. You can either provide evidence to the contrary or stop obstructing the improvement of the article. Çerçok (talk) 11:02, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

• Comment All other sources are academic and secondary. We compare and contrast sources. Now, don't place manual page moves.--Maleschreiber (talk) 10:50, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
• Comment The move is controversial and was performed per wp:NINJA. As such a proper move request should be initiated.Alexikoua (talk) 11:00, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

You can discuss the name issue with Cercok, I'm not involved in that debate. Whichever name is used, it should be consistent with the names used in Albania and Russia - the two countries where members still live. I reverted the manual page move because it created a double redirect loop which made it impossible to read the article. Side comment:I strongly advise all editors against not comparing & contrasting sources(Alexikoua: [16]) and not giving precedence to reliable, contemporary and relevant bibliography. Thank you.--Maleschreiber (talk) 11:09, 17 November 2021 (UTC)