Talk:Palestinians in Jordan

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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 29 August 2018 and 29 December 2018. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Cheikhgaye1997.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 02:04, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Black September

Why is black september not mentioned on this page? That was a pretty big event.74.70.146.1 (talk) 02:08, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

There is quite a huge difference between militians and civilians.. Makeandtoss (talk) 15:03, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

Editors are sometimes very protective of making sure people don't know of things like * Black September that might bring nuance to the discussion of a group. "Palestinians in Jordan" would include both civilians and militants.Oathed (talk) 15:45, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Number

@Makeandtoss: as a Jordanian difficult to accept the number of Palestinians in Jordan. In fact the number of Palestinians more than the Jordanians, Jordan times non-neutral site because it is simply Jordanian - unrwa.org Says: More than 2 million registered Palestine refugees live in Jordan. Most Palestine refugees in Jordan, but not all, have full citizenship.--Marlo Jonesa (talk) 20:33, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

@Marlo Jonesa: "number of Palestinians in Jordan" Which Palestinians exactly? The ones who were kicked out around 70 years ago? They're mostly dead. Their descendants? They either became Jordanian nationals, or half Jordanians, the latter being my case. The Jordan Times sources quotes the 2015 census, funded through a 25 million euros grant from the European Union. Do you really think anyone would spend 25 million euros to give shitty results?? Here's some reality perhaps you might wake up from whatever nonsense you like to surround yourself with; the 600K figure is for Palestinian non Jordanian nationals, while the 2.1M figure is for the Palestinian refugees both Jordanian and non Jordanians nationals. BOTH figures are sourced, while "undefined" comes from nowhere. I have tons of Palestinian friends, most of whom have never visited Palestine. You know what they identify themselves as? Jordanians. Because that is who they are. They were born here, their parents too, they were educated here, they were treated here, they live here. Here's a famous example, perhaps it would broaden your narrow naive thinking. "it's an indescribable feeling to win the first medal in the history of Jordan in all the sports, it's also a great feeling to listen to the national anthem of Jordan being played in Rio in front of the whole world." - Ahmad Abughaush, a "Palestinian". Makeandtoss (talk) 20:47, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

@Makeandtoss: Wait what do you mean - which Palestinians exactly?, (What you are doing is called Jordanization). We are talking about the Jordanians of Palestinian origins with refugees. By the example that Ahmad Abughaush What do you expect to his say, I'm Palestinians live outside of Palestine and I belong to the country where I live. this is normal (يعني بالعربي مش قليلين أصل طبعا بنحب وبنتمي للبلد الي اعطانا من خيرو).--Marlo Jonesa (talk) 21:27, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

I am not doing anything. The article is "Palestinians in Jordan", not "Every single soul in Jordan who has genes originating west of the Jordan River". It is normal indeed, but you tried to portray it as abnormal by saying that every single soul in Jordan who has genes originating west of the Jordan River should be called a "Palestinian" and that he/she follows Palestinian nationalism, along with other implications associated with the residents of the West Bank. Makeandtoss (talk) 21:51, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

What do you say? and why genes reported in this matter! both Jordanians and Palestinians are Arabs. You went away, we are talking about the number of Palestinians and not genes or nationalism. I think that the removal of the number is the best option (neutral).--Marlo Jonesa (talk) 22:41, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

You are just proving my point. They both are Arabs, why then exaggerate the Palestinians numbers in Jordan? "more than the Jordanians", portraying them as if they are a distinct alien group? The Palestinians this article refers to are either refugees or non Jordanian nationals or both. period. In my view, yes, it is retarded to label people based on if they were east or west of the Jordan River before 1948. But in politics, this flawed logic prevails. Now lets assume your claim that the number of Palestinians in Jordan exceeds the number of Jordanians in Jordan is true, aka more than 2.1 million people. Does this mean that every single person of this 3 million-ish figure is "Palestinian", i.e. just like any other resident of the West Bank who has nothing to do with Jordan? Obviously untrue, but this would be the automatic impression of anyone checking this article. The 600K figure or the 2.1M figure isn't a representative either, but its a closer representative. I hope your understanding what I am trying to say because this issue is too interconnected and its difficult to arrange the thoughts. Makeandtoss (talk) 23:20, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

Either remove the number or put an explanation of the number (To be neutral). For the number of Palestinians make up more than half. → Despite having held a comprehensive national census in 2004, the Jordanian government would not divulge the exact percentage of Palestinians in the kingdom. Nonetheless, the secret that everyone seems to know but which is never openly admitted is that Palestinians make up the vast majority of the population. In his 2011 book, Our Last Best Chance, King Abdullah claimed that the Palestinians make up a mere 43 percent. The U.S. State Department estimates that Palestinians make up "more than half" of Jordanians while in a 2007 report, written in cooperation with several Jordanian government bodies, the London-based Oxford Business Group stated that at least two thirds of Jordan's population were of Palestinian origin. Palestinians make up the majority of the population of Jordan's two largest cities, Amman and Zarqa, which were small, rural towns before the influx of Palestinians arrived in 1967 after Jordan's defeat in the Six-Day War.12345678910 and also there are hundreds of sources.--Marlo Jonesa (talk) 00:21, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

You still don't get it do you? This "more than half" segment is no longer solely Palestinian. Just like me, just like Abughaush, just like millions others. It makes nice catchy headlines, but its false ;). The rest of the Palestinians who have not been "Jordanized" either hold a refugee status or Palestinian citizenship, numbering 600K or 2.1M inclusive. Even here we can't be sure if they are "Jordanized", but we are certainly more sure than the former case. The 2015 census results are very accurate, it was overseen by the EU, and the UNRWA is a reliable source. Now go find yourself something else to do. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:48, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

Makeandtoss, although it may be a challenge, do try and respect the civility policy.--Marlo Jonesa (talk) 16:25, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

It is challenging indeed, but it is difficult to keep repeating the same argument. The 600K figure is not "from the Jordan Times" it is from a 25 million euro census funded by the European Union. Makeandtoss (talk) 22:20, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

@Bolter21: What do you think, I've added this edit in order to settle the matter but he refused.--Marlo Jonesa (talk) 22:32, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

To editor Marlo Jonesa: I will advise not to ping other people and ask for their opinion in such dispute, because people can claim t is WP:CANVAS. Anyway there is not much to argue, UNRWA is much more reliable than one JordanTimes. There are at least 2 million Palestinians in Jordan.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 22:49, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

@Makeandtoss: Palestinians who do not have national ID numbers with 634,182 representing 6.65 per cent of the population.--Marlo Jonesa (talk) 05:25, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

@Marlo Jonesa: Not having national ID numbers = not having citizenship = not considered Jordanian. However, some Jordanians and some non Jordanian in Jordan have a Palestinian refugee status, the 2.1 million figure. These are different numbers on different definitions, they are obviously not varying estimations. For the billionth time, the Jordan Times is quoting the 2015 census which is funded by a 25 million euros grant from the European Union. There's no such thing as "more reliable" here. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:24, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

@Makeandtoss: Example: there are more than 12 million Arabs in Brazil from the second and third generation most of whom do not speak Arabic only retain their origin does this mean that they are not Arabs?. We are talking about ancestry although this number includes only the refugees, in order to be neutral. So we don't need to inflate it more--Marlo Jonesa (talk) 12:47, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

Completely different comparison. Jordanians and Palestinians are ethnically Arab, the only difference between them is where they where in 1948 and in 1967, and what nationality they hold. You've confirmed this yourself. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:53, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

I know this very well, but there's nothing called right of return, If we make the Palestinian people - Jordanian, Syrian and Lebanese who will be Palestinian?, this is what the Zionists want, they want the naturalization of all Palestinian refugees to forget their homeland.--Marlo Jonesa (talk) 13:07, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

Thats a matter of personal perspective rather than the legal situation.. Makeandtoss (talk) 13:14, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

This is not a matter of personal perspective, but the opinion of every person and the state supports the Palestinian people. It is unfortunate to see an Arab especially Jordanian says that, you have to support the right of return, i hope one day that the Palestinian and Jordanian people unite, because Palestine is Jordan and Jordan is Palestine.--Marlo Jonesa (talk) 13:24, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

Nobody said anything about the right of return. Do you even realize how much harm that last sentence you just typed cause? Literally rich fuel for Zionist propaganda to promote Palestinian relocation from historical Palestine to Jordan. The last sentence you wrote is true, was true actually, before the 1967 war. But now too many things happened 50 years later and that is no longer true, stop promoting that if you claim to care about Palestine and the Palestinians. There is only one reality today, and that is the two state solution. The only way for Jordanian and Palestinian unity is through Greater Syria, obviously impossible today, and in the future, in light of the chaos. This is not the place for these types of discussions. Please revert your last edit, a removal of reliable sourced material. Makeandtoss (talk) 13:31, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

Btw you violated WP:1RR, which usually ends with your account being indefinitely blocked. But I am not going to report that. Makeandtoss (talk) 13:39, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

I don't know why you insist on this, this is not the first time that you turn to hide the number of Palestinians and reduce their number in Jordan. As it did in Palestine refugees your argument was unsourced figure there are a lot of sources if you want to.--Marlo Jonesa (talk) 13:51, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

According to UNRWA there are 2.1 million not 3 million. I don't why you insist on making me look like the orchestrator of a conspiracy theory. Makeandtoss (talk) 13:57, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

You've also done this in the Arabic Wikipedia. Anyway the last edit is very suitable and also according to the same sources.--Marlo Jonesa (talk) 14:23, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

Yes I also did that in Arabic Wikipedia. Whats my accusation? Is it that bad to abide by sources? Yes the last edit is suitable, but change national id numbers to "who do no hold Jordanian citizenship" as it is synonymous. Makeandtoss (talk) 14:41, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

Done!.--Marlo Jonesa (talk) 14:56, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

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Palestinians in Jordan article

[Moved from User talk page] The Economist magazine does not have the means to quantify the number of "Palestinians" in Jordan. The 4.5 million claim is not supported by any reputable statistic or study. Furthermore, a person who has origins from west of the Jordan River and holds a Jordanian citizenship, can only be said to be Jordanian as both Jordanians and Palestinians are Arabs. The source you included for the percentage of Palestinians in Jordan, claims three different numbers (60, 68 and 70) in three different versions of the book! This percentage is highly controversial and can range from 40% from official sources to 88% from far-right Zionist sources. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:52, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) Oh, it's not just "far-right Zionist sources". Back in the day, it was advanced by Arafat's PLO. One classification is by Bedouin (Bedawi) vs. non-Bedouin (Levantine) Arabic. Icewhiz (talk) 13:11, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

I don't see how your comment contributes to this discussion. Yes, Palestinian ultranationalists too. Illogical classifications nevertheless; some Palestinians are Bedouin and not all Jordanians are Bedouin. Makeandtoss (talk) 13:26, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

When one classifies by ethnicity (as opposed to modern geopolitical borders that have little historical or ethnic background - but do affect citizenship cards) - that's a rather logical ethnic division. Not just "Palestinian nationalists", I believe, but also those opposed to the Jordanian monarchy.Icewhiz (talk) 13:53, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

Palestinians are ethnically Arab just like Jordanians. The only difference between the two groups is that they originate from different banks of the same river. Of course, enemies of the Jordanian monarchy will play whatever card; be they far-right Zionists, fedayeen or Arab nationalists. But there are no Jordanians opposed to the monarchy who would support such a twisted narrative. Makeandtoss (talk) 14:31, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

Pan-Arabism is so 60s. As for the article - as estimates of Palestinians (as well as the "who is a Palestinian?" definition) vary widely (from 10% t 90% at the extremes) - it might be best to specify a range in the article. Icewhiz (talk) 14:36, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

How about I claim 350% of Jordanians are 'Palestinians', can that be added to the article too? Makeandtoss (talk) 14:43, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

@Makeandtoss: thanks for your comments above. I think this article would greatly benefit from the points you make being added to the article, if appropriate references can be easily found. The political nature of this question is very interesting, and it runs deep to the core of modern Jordanian identity. Onceinawhile (talk) 19:32, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

Different cayegories with numbers

Not to return to the very heated "Numbers" dispute further up, but the intro states that

• "it rather depends on the definition of who is a Palestinian".

OK, so what are the possible definitions? Forget individual perception, stick to logical categories, if and where they can be stated. In general, identity in the region is less subjective than one might wish to believe, even in times of globalisation etc.

I am thinking of

• Pre-1947 19th- and 20th-century Palestinian Arabs settling in Transjordan. See Salt for instance, Nabulsis and so on. Probably much more diffuse by now.
• All refugees & their descendants of post-1947 Palestinians (47-49 refugees; 48-67 internal W-E migrants; 67 refugees), whether with or w/o Jordanian citizenship.

It is hard to believe, to say the least, that in matters concerning I/P these categories would take the same approach as descendants of S or E Bedouins, Karak Christians, Circassians, Chechens, Druze or Armenians. Most certainly not a solid bloc, but no Middle Easterner I know was ever indifferent to his roots, especially such going back just 2-3, or even 5-6 generations.

Besides, stating that "it depends on the definition", but then leaving it at that, is very poor indeed. Cheers, Arminden (talk) 10:04, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Sirhan Sirhan

The article about Sirhan Sirhan says he is a Palestinian Jordanian. Would anyone object to including him among the list of notable Palestinian Jordanians here? —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 03:15, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

History of Palestinians in Jordan

I'm confused (and a little concerned) that there isn't any section in here detailing the history of Palestinians in Jordan. There is a lot to cover and this article just barely scratches the surface with it's general claims of "full citizenship."

The Palestinian experience in Jordan is not adequately or accurately represented in this article. There were struggles for years, a civil war, refugees denied citizenship and basic rights such as education and property rights, different waves of refugees treated differently, etc. Even as recently as the 2000s, Jordan stripped or tried to strip the citizenship if thousands of Palestinians. To this day, at least hundreds of thousands of Palestinians in Jordan are still denied citizenship. This article is dangerously misrepresenting the facts.

I'm not an avid contributor and don't have the skills to do so, but this feels like a glaring blind spot and I hope someone who is better versed at Wikipedia editing will improve this page. 47.154.35.96 (talk) 18:36, 18 November 2023 (UTC)