Talk:Palazzo della Civiltà Italiana

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Unjustified reversion

Well now, this edit removed some valuable information that I added: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Palazzo_della_Civilt%C3%A0_Italiana&diff=1052033544&oldid=1052017437. The fact that "groviera" primarily means "gruyère" appears to be reported nowhere else on Wikipedia. There is no need to omit it here, and it gives a fuller account of the etymology. As for the reversion to "Swiss Cheese" rather than my uncapped "Swiss cheese", that is not warranted by the context either. The present text at that point:

La Groviera (Italian for "Swiss Cheese") ...

My version:

The Palazzo della Civiltà Italiana, also known as the Palazzo della Civiltà del Lavoro, or in everyday speech as the Colosseo Quadrato ("Square Colosseum") or La Groviera (Italian for "gruyère" or "Swiss cheese"), is a building in the EUR district in Rome.

References

The later citation appealed to by the reverting editor (not shown here) is retained in my version; it makes the connection with some or other kind of Swiss cheese, but it does not supply the more exact etymology. Incidentally, that reference's exact wording is this:

... nicknamed Colosseo Quadrato or Groviera (Square Colosseum or Swiss Cheese).

Not "La Groviera", if we are going to be sticklers here. I put it out for consideration: Why not give the more informative etymology, with a perfectly authoritative source cited and supplanting nothing in the existing text? On this basis I am reinstating my edit. Let anyone who wants to revert it argue the case here. We want maximally informative articles that supply relevant information that most people would have trouble finding elsewhere, yes? 114.72.76.18 (talk) 05:53, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

The problem is that Italians name Groviera also the Emmentaler cheese [1], which is clearly wrong, because gruyère has no Eyes. In this case the translation of Groviera with gruyère makes no sense, but Groviera should be translated with Emmentaler, which has a lot of holes, as this building. Alex2006 (talk) 17:44, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Alessandro, there is no problem here. It's simply addition of authentic etymological information that is so hard to track down elsewhere on Wikipedia. There are disputes over recent years about exactly what should count as gruyère. "Gruyère" from France does have holes, and so does Italian groviera. The source you link to mentions cheeses other than the original Swiss gruyère: "Più genericam., nell’uso commerciale, il termine indica anche l’emmental e le sue imitazioni di produzione nazionale" ["More generically, in commercial usage the term indicates emmental, and its imitations in domestic production"], but the primary meaning for "groviera" is given as coming directly from the etymology, which is definitely "gruyère". A similar linguistic story can be told concerning the Greek graviera (γραβιέρα) cheeses.

It would be unhelpful and opaque to substitute "emmental" in this article, and "Swiss cheese" by itself leaves some readers without information they are specifically looking for on Wikipedia. I see no reason to back away from my proposal that we neatly add such information, while removing no other information.

114.72.76.18 (talk) 22:24, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

And I see you have now edited to remove any mention of gruyère, and any mention of "Swiss cheese"! Strange and unhelpful. Many good sources outside Wikipedia make the connections far more lucidly than you seem to want:

[2] "(GASTR). Formaggio svizzero a pasta dura, cotto, fabbricato col latte semiscremato di due mungiture / impropr. Emmental." (Reading "groviera" as "emmental" is here marked as "improper".)

[3] "qualità di formaggio, tipico della regione di Gruyère (Svizzera)" (No mention of emmental.)

[4] (A good collection of occurrences in sentences; some conenct with emmental and related cheeses, but gruyère greatly predominates as a meaning.)

I have no objection to a brief note about emmental and its holeyness; but I put it to you that this quality of "Swiss cheese" was perfectly apparent already – until you removed the phrase "Swiss cheese". So it's now worse than what we started with. Many readers who know nothing about emmental (or Emmentaler, etc.) will know that "Swiss cheese" has holes. They will not be helped. Please restore suitable mention of gruyère, and of "Swiss cheese". There is no reason to avoid giving correct etymological and semantic information, with attestation in good sources.

114.72.76.18 (talk) 23:01, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Switzerland has several hundred types of cheese: most of them (Appenzeller, Tilsiter, etc. ) have no eyes at all, so translating groviera with Swiss cheese is wrong. Here we are trying to explain to the English-speaking reader what Italians mean as groviera in this context: Emmentaler. "failed verification" here does not apply, since the source (Enciclopedia Italiana) affirms exactly what is written in the article: "Più genericam., nell’uso commerciale, il termine indica anche l’emmental e le sue imitazioni di produzione nazionale." in english "More generally, in commercial use, the term also indicates emmental and its imitations of domestic production." And this is exactly what Romans mean when they name the Colosseo Quadrato as Groviera: they compare it with an emmentaler (cheese imported in Rome since centuries), since it is full of holes. Alex2006 (talk) 09:55, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

Alessandro, I have reverted your reversion of my tag. The matter is far more complicated than you suggest. It's easy to find Italian sources showing that using "groviera" (or "gruviera") to mean "emmental" is contested, confusing, and unhelpful. This is an encyclopedia you are working on, not an inventory of popular misconceptions. See especially Italian Wikipedia, from the lead of the article "Gruviera" [5]:

Il gruviera (gruyère in francese) o groviera, è un formaggio svizzero, che deve il suo nome al Distretto della Gruyère in cui viene prodotto, nel Canton Friburgo[1]. In Italia il termine gruviera viene usato anche, in modo improprio, per indicare il formaggio Emmentaler o, comunque, un formaggio con occhiatura (presenza di buchi).[2]

Roughly, for those unfamiliar with the language (with my underlining):

Gruviera (gruyère in French) or goviera is a Swiss cheese that owes its name to the District of Gruyère in which it is produced, in the Canton of Fribourg. In Italy the term gruviera has come to be used also, improperly, to indicate Emmentaler cheese or, in any case, a cheese with eyes (the presence of holes).

And a host of published sources confirm this "impropriety":

[6] "It. Emmenthal • Formaggio a pasta molle con grossi buchi, prodotto in Svizzera e nello Jura ; chiamato erroneamente Gruyère (groviera)." ["erroneously called Gruyère (groviera)"]

[7] " 'In Italia da molto tempo la gente, che non sa distinguere, chiama 'gruviera' o 'gruviera' il famoso Emmental, il formaggio coi buchi. Questo è un grosso errore.' " ["This is a gross error."]

[8] A headline: "NON CONFONDIAMO L'EMMENTAL CON IL 'GROVIERA' " ["Let's not confuse emmental with 'groviera' "]

Work together to make this article genuinely encyclopedic?

114.72.76.18 (talk) 21:37, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

There's no need to go through all these gyrations conflating the etymology of the Italian word for a kind of cheese with the English nickname of a building. This article is about the building, not cheese. So it's really simple. We have a reliable source that says a nickname of the building in English is "Swiss Cheese", so that's exactly what we write, citing the source, unless we also have another equally or more reliable source that says something to the contrary. Anything more is WP:OR or WP:SYNTH. I've restored the source and the precise words used by that source. Station1 (talk) 22:02, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

If it were simple, Station, that would be fine. But I have cogently argued above – with abundant evidence – that unquestioning propagation of poor and opaque usage is not encyclopedic. It does not serve the needs of all users. My new compromise version is a synthesis that meets your concerns (accepting your reference and your reading of "groviera") and Alessandro's. It also, perfectly harmlessly, gives all readers what they need, succinctly and with references.

Good?

114.72.76.18 (talk) 00:35, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Sorry, but no. Synthesis is strictly prohibited in Wikipedia, as I mentioned just above. It is a fundamental policy. "To demonstrate that you are not adding original research, you must be able to cite reliable, published sources that are directly related to the topic of the article, and directly support the material being presented." [ WP:NOR ]. "In general, the most reliable sources are: Peer-reviewed journals..." [ WP:NOR ] The topic of the article is the building. The material presented is the nickname of the building. The source is what looks to be a peer-reviewed journal. It says "Swiss Cheese". It is as simple as that. Your assertion that the reliable source is wrong does not matter, unless you provide an equally reliable source that says it's really called "The Gruyere Building". The etymology of Italian words is not germane to this article, and French-language tertiary sources about French cuisine are not directly related to the topic of this article. Station1 (talk) 06:17, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Please read here. In any case, now I understand what is meant by swiss cheese: it is an American imitation of emmental. In my opinion it would be better to change it to emmental, as it is ambiguous (on wikipedia "swiss cheese" is a disambiguation page) but if the average Anglo-Saxon reader understands that swiss cheese is synonymous with cheese with holes, it can stay. Alex2006 (talk) 08:11, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

That is what it means in Nth America - Swiss cheese (North America). In the UK etc it is different. Swiss-type cheeses might be a useful link here. Johnbod (talk) 13:31, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

@Johnbod: In that case I think that we should use Emmentaler. About the IP, I don't understand if he doesn't understand what I write or if he is a troll (or both).

Anyway, to summarize:

• in Rome, Italy, people mistakenly call emmental cheese gruyere (I'm not saying it, but the enciclopedia italiana);
• because of this, the square Colosseum (which incidentally is right now framed by a window in my living room, just outside the red zone of the G20 that will start tomorrow) is nicknamed by the Romans like me palazzo groviera;

The whole problem is to make English-speaking readers understand the meaning of this nickname, not by literally translating groviera into gruyere (a cheese without holes) but either by translating it with emmental (and here I don't see any original reesarch if we use an Italian source together with the Enciclopedia Italiana) or in another way that I (not a native English speaker) cannot imagine. Johnbod, do you have any ideas? Thanks, Alex2006 (talk) 17:14, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

There is no problem. The average English-speaking reader around the world easily understands that "Swiss Cheese" metaphorically means something with big holes in it. It's no different from Italians understanding Groviera metaphorically means something with big holes in it. There's no need for further explanation or links in this article, especially with that photo. Station1 (talk) 17:23, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

No, that's where you're wrong. In the UK it means, amazingly, a cheese from Switzerland! I'd leave the text as it is now ("or Groviera (strictly meaning gruyère, but popularly meaning "Swiss cheese" with holes, such as emmental)" but with an extra link: "or Groviera (strictly meaning gruyère, but popularly meaning "Swiss cheese" with holes, such as emmental). Btw, historically Gruyere used to have many more holes than it does now, and Emmenthaler far fewer and smaller. Quite what point these transitions had reached when the Italian nickname became fixed I don't know. Johnbod (talk) 17:45, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Are you really saying people in Britain would see a picture of that building, be told it was called "Groviera (Swiss Cheese)", and be clueless as to why? Station1 (talk) 18:20, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

No, that's not what I said. Johnbod (talk) 19:10, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Reverting to a more consensual version in the lead

Certain compromise changes were argued for in the preceding section, but one editor was not happy with them. Rather than continue dialogue with Johnbod (a veteran editor, held in high respect across all of English Wikipedia), the editor fell silent and after a few days reverted (without edit summary or any explanation anywhere) what Johnbod had endorsed as the best compromise version. I have now restored that compromise version. Editors, please respect WP process. Work for something more consensual, rather than making what you know will be controversial undocumented edits by stealth. 114.72.76.18 (talk) 22:09, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

I agree with you, thanks! Alex2006 (talk) 05:34, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

The edit summary "ce" is a widely used abbreviation for copyedit, but perhaps that should have been written out in this case. Nothing was reverted or removed; the parenthetical digression about the etymology of the Italian word for a type of cheese was simply moved from the first sentence to a footnote where it wouldn't be quite as intrusive. Station1 (talk) 07:04, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

Ooops! I did not look at your version. A footnote is fine for me! Alex2006 (talk) 07:13, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

Let's leave it alone till Johnbod has his say. I for one still think it's best in the compromise version I developed (given the concerns of both of you), and Johnbod approved (as did you, Alessandro). Why deal in footnotes when the matter can be made crystal clear at a glance – with all necessary references also?

114.72.76.18 (talk) 08:09, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Contested Monuments

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 4 February 2021 and 5 May 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Liberatg (article contribs).

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