Talk:Oorpazhachi Kavu

Edakkad,where Oorpazhachikaav is situated is a coastal village.reading the history of Oorpazhachikaav it is found that mythological tales subscribed to a particular area and time have been unhesitatingly lifted and placed before the unsuspecting reader as the local folklore.The history of Bhaghavathy of Oorpazhachikaav glaringly shows that in the actual mythology,parvathy on being called 'kaali' by'shiva does 'Tapass'in the dense forest's of Vindhya mountains.this popular mythological story is edited in without any supporting source,as parvathy doing 'Tapass' at 'Malikaparamba near Oorpazhachikaav.not even in a single traditional folklore of Northernmost Malabar such a history finds place.So is the story of 'Oorpazhachi Dhaivathar,Vettakorumakan ,Thondachan and Shaneeshwara.'It may be noted that there is the traditional folklore 'Thottam'exclusively for Oorpazhachi Dhaivathar and Vettakorumakan which is conspicuously not at all mentioned.It can be seen that in the original and indigenous folklore of Kerala ,namboodiri influence has infiltrated into each prominent strand of popular local belief by the usual' milk and blood 'version or 'blood oozing from the stone where a knife was sharpened' story.More repulsive is the 'history'of families tracing their origin proudly to these manipulated versions.Going through popular native sources and critically examining them ,it is inferred that these areas were in immediate proximity with the sea,a thousand and more years ago, which had withdrawn considerably exposing the present sea shore. The legend of rama worshipping Shaneeshwara is also a calculated insertion and an attempt to introduce future marketing possibilities.Rama had installed subrahmanya ,the deity of south indian Astrology at Peralasseri as it is believed.rama who is believed to be a shiva bhaktha worshipping shaneeswara at Oorpazhachikaav is not even mentioned in the locality of Peralasseri or Oorpazhachikaav at any point of time,or even in the local rama folklore of kannur or in the Manual of William Logan. The available popular folklore and historical studies has to be presented before the reader to have an authentic view and discussion of Oorpazhachikaav. --Real villager (talk) 10:14, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Multiple places claiming similar incidents is not unknown in what we know today as Hinduism and authenticity of each claim is often difficult to ascertain. So although I do agree with your counter-claim as per the Skandapurana, I cannot discredit the alternate claims of OorpazhachiKavu too. I will explain taking another example in the same Skanda Purana – The Daksha yaagam. Kottiyoor temple in Kannur Kerala, Daksheshwar Temple near Haridwar and Hariharapura near Sringeri all claim to be places where Daksha-Yaaga was performed – So who is the right claimant ? To discredit a story in Hinduism is often difficult and one must see it from the historical and anthropological perspective of spread of what we know today as Hinduism - “the great tradition” meeting “little cultures” and deveoping unque local flavours. Sometimes same mythologies are used by multiple locations in india to facilitate this synthesis locally. To discredit one and accept another is often difficult.About the Shaneeshwara claim- Calculated insertion or not, I donot have unfortunately sufficient evidence to make such a claim so I will not make it nor will I dispute your counter claim. However even if calculated insertion has taken place in the past, that too is typical of “Hinduism” . Too many temples in Kerala itself stand as examples where Hinduism has made “calculated insertions” to erase Budhist and Jainist traditions locally. It is not an isolated event but a universal phenomenon not only during spread of Hinduism in Kerala but spread of all religions all over the world.So where can we start ? As per the claims of ancestry of these families, the following has to be considered. Both the modern descendants of the Randu illom vargam as well as the modern descendants of Velloor and Mullapalli illom accept this claim of ancestry from scions of these to Brahmin families. The acceptance is either ways. How many family histories of today can be authenticated both ways ? Most Christian families of Kerala claim Nambudiri ancestory , many Royalty all over India claim ancestry from Soorya or Chandra (why go so far, the Perumbadappu Swaroopam was confered Soorya lineage not so far away in historical past). So such tendencies are a universal phenomenon. Atleast the Randu illam Vargam claim is substantiated by both Nambudiris and the descendants of these families alike. So why should we crticize it ?

Daivathar Charitham itself claims that Daivathar (Melur dayarapan) advices his mother Thammariviyamma (resident of Melur fort) before leaving for Devaloka that his form should be made by Balussery Viswakarmavu on a Varikkaplavu, his voice be heard through the oracles of Balussery Peruvannan at mid noon and mid night. Therefore the connection of Daivathar with Melur fort and Balussery fort are inherent in these. However whethether other perspectives exist or not one cannot overlook these connection of Daivathar with Balussery in the context of his own Charitham. The connection of Vettakkorumakan with Balussery valiya homam cheitha sthanam also cannot be overlooked likewise owing to folklore from multiple parts of north Malabar.

The best way is to accept all perspectives as different facets.History, religion and politics are always filled with paradoxes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vettakkorumakansnehi (talk • contribs) 18:21, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Historical records,research has till date shown that Hinduism as such or 'benevolent Hinduism giving rise to unique flavours' was not definitely existent in kerala till the 1960's.'The tyrannical Namboodiri brahmin priesthood and their cohorts with the sly tools of manipulated Purana's had usurped the rich humanness of most of the developing tribes of Ancient India from 6AD onwards.So the comment and the context of parvathi doing Tapas at the Vindhya range was to show that the accepted Puranic manipulation is at the vindhyas. so why insert the story at Malikaparamba for which their is no local or brahamanical support.Kottiyoor ,where Dakhsha yaga is believed to have taken place should also be throughly scrutinized.The Kerala namboodiri brahmin priesthood must have surely usurped a serene centre of Tribal culture by gradually pushing them to the margin as can be seen in the customs and surroundings of Kottiyoor.The namboodiri priest bringing the ceremonial Muthereri sword and the various secret rites encrypts the colonization'of the native tribals through force and black magic.The rich flora and fauna in the dense forest gradually went into the hands of the rulers to the present era where none of them were from the native stock and culture.If the Randillam vargom story is probed ,it would surely reveal that the namboodiris and the randillam vargom were the earliest settlers here at Oorpazhachikavu territory pushing the original inhabitants into to some vanquished tale.The vargom might have come from Balussery.Meloor Dayarappan was a fierce nair feudal ruler. every prominent folklore of kerala has been manipulated by the namboodiri priesthood ,mainly the parasurama branmins.Real villager (talk) 19:30, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Brahminism may have lead to stratification of society in Kerala like in many other parts of India, and I can understand your anti-brahminic rhetoric in the background that it has become fashionable in many circles. However historians always have a balanced opinion on Vedicization and Brahminic cultarization of Kerala. Inspite of stratification of society that Brahminism bought, its culture had profound implications in Kerala. The role of Brahmisim in organizing and structuring native martial arts to the sophistication of Kalaripayattu that we see today, the role of Nambudiris to avoid introduction of Sati in Kerala (64 Keralaacharams) and they had better treatment of widows compared to Brahmin widows elsewhere of the same time, their contributions to Kerala architecture through master pieces like Tanthra Samuchayam and Mananava vaastu lakshanam, their contribution to literature by likes of Melpathur Bhattathiripad (16th century), Poonthanam (the Njanappaana in Malayalam) and many others, their role in refining theatre like Koodiyattam, Kathakali (Kaplinagad Narayanan Nambudiri) etc, their contribution to Kerala Mathematics through works such as Ganita Yuktibhasa (by Jyeshtadeva) and Grahapareeksakrama and Aryabhateeya Bhasya (by Neelakanta Somayaji). To say Brahmisim contributed nothing to Kerala would be ignorance. Some of us are so enthusiastic to portray and over-empahsize the negativities and tyrrany of Brahminic culture on aboriginal cultures of Kerala that in one sway we get carried away by our own prejudices and forget all these positive contributions of Brahmisim to Kerala Society from 8th century onwards to the present. All that this prejudiced Brahmin bashing achieves is the false propaganda that Nambudiris contributed nothing to Kerala and they were sexual predators through Sambandham alliances. Have we forgotten that prior to the reign of the Perumaals, ancestors of modern Nambudiris were endogamous or remained celibate otherwise i.e, traditionally, the younger siblings were supposed to practice Brahmacharyam by being unmarried and to dedicate themselves to preserve Vedas and rituals. Shankaracharya institutionalized primogeniture to prevent sub-division of land-holding among Nambudiris and Sambandham was happily encouraged by Nayars who were chief intermediary land tenants to ensure they received partisan treatment during prolongation of land contracts. Today historians agree that it was this Sambandham and matriliniality of Nayars that came in handy to Kerala war machinery during the prolonged Chera-Chola conflict. Even after the Chera – Chola conflict as late as 16th century communities, especially Nayars and Kshathriyas encouraged Nambudiris to have Sambandham with girls in their communities. The objective behind this encouragement was to so called “purify” our future generations with Nambudiri blood and also to elevate our families to higher rank in the society due to a Nambudiri relationship. It was a fact that Nambudiris could not just resist such attractions in terms of money, sex and leisurely life-style but would we have been any better ? . Finally , even after the Madras Nambudiri Act in 1933 and the efforts of Nambudiri Yogakshema Sabha , it was the Nayar. Ambalavasi and Kshatriya elite who resisted this modernization moves within the Nambudiri community because our singular aim was to get educated Nambudiris to marry our educated girls. So can we blame it all as caprice of the Nambudiri ? Would it be fair to say that Nambudiris did not contribute anything to Kerala culture and to brand them as a bunch of immorals. We must look at things fairly and objectively and avoid blaming anything and everything on Brahminism and not to overlook their positive contributions. It is always so easy to blame it on others, it is something we should avoid.

Coming to the Tapas and Vindhya mountains and Gauri. If we analyze it very very precisely, Skanda puraana, Vaamana puraana , Shiva puraana and Markandeya Puraana all explain it to have happened in the Himalayas and not in the Vindhyas per se. Parvathi did the penance in Himalalyas to give rise to Gauri (fair one) and Koushiki (black one). Koushiki them came to Vindhyas to kill the Asuras and later got enshrined there. However the original Tapas for colour transformation happened in the Himalayas. As explained earlier here, Hinduism has used the same mythologies from the puranas in multiple locations to integrate local aborginal shrines. It is not Brahminical tyrrany, it is simply syncretization. Daivathar and Vettakkorumakan got prominence in "Her grounds" (previous grove/shrine of a non-vedic Godess), they had to find a way to accommodate and retain her in the Oorpazhassi enclave and weave this pre-vedic deity in to the vedic fabric to make a coherent tunic –Oorpazhachi Kavu. Such sanskritization of Kavu premises in to shrines by temple building within sacred groves is not new in the history of North Malabar. Thus it appears that they may not have had the courage to displace a pre-existing deity so they simply shelved and reduced her status into a small sanctum sanctorum , wove a story to super-impose her with Puranic deities of the Vedic culture by using the Kali-Gauri legend from the Puranas. Look around almost every temple in Kerala has done it and there is nothing we will achieve by saying this legend is not true. Really, does it matter who she was ? Was she a Budhist or Jain period female icon who got absorbed in to the Kali cult during Vedicization of Kerala, or she much older to even Budhist and Jain periods of Kerala ? Could she have been a Mother Godess consecrated during the Neolithic period in a patch of pre-historic climax vegetation  ? . The truth is - We donot know her true origins as yet.Similarly Melur Rayarappan of Melur fort or Daivathar was a hero who got enshrined in Oorpazhassi as per Dr. K.K.N Kurups analysis of the cult of this theyyam. The Daivathar then becoming Shankara-Narayana could have easily happened due to the influece of our neighbouring culture (the Hari-Hara cult of the Hoysalas and Vijaynagara empires having been overlayed on this local hero). If you can accept Melur Rayarappan as Shankara-Naarayana and Daivathar and Vaidyananthan etc, you should not have any problem accepting the Gauri-tapas legend.We must remember that virtually no diety which rises to dominance reflects a contemprory movement alone. Just as social lineage provides identity to a person, divine lineage ascribes continuity, authenticity and identity to the Gods being worshipped. In popular hinduism, each diety reflects simply not a particular cultural moment but an ongoing tradition that by incarnation, generation, homology or transference of symbols and meaning derives its authority from a mythic or historical original moment. Hinduism cannot be appreciated, if one fails to understand the fundamentals of how it proselytizes ; each “new” or “local” diety it confronts will be ascribed some association with the theological mainstream. This new deity has to be then subsequently internalized or appropriated into the hindu social psyche through personal experiences of awe. Even if many know that this story is not accurate to define the Godess diety at Oorpazhachi Kavu, devotees will always continue to worship her as Gauri and devotees will continue to derive their faith from this legend as this has been already internalized in society over the centuries like many legends of many other temples of Kerala. Let me ask you a simple question - Will anybody now go to Kodungalloor temple and pray for Kannaki ? Will we go to several Aiyappa temples scattered in Kerala and pray for Tamil Aiyanar or even Budha ? Will we argue to Sabarimala that the Mohini Ayyappa legend does not find a place in Skanda-purana version beyond Southern India and that it was simply inserted to enshrine a local south indian diety in to Hindu mainstream ?. Sometimes one has to let sleeping dogs lie because where will you start and what will you achieve ? Syncretization and overlaying multiple dieties has been the way of Hindu proselytization and is the least aggressive of the strategies of expansion in comparison to proselytizing of other religions, that does not make the Nambudiris tyrrants nor should it lead us to overlook their contibutions to our society.

Vettakkorumakansnehi

If I am being fashionable it's because it is inevitable.Maybe it is because you are in the fold ,you miss the real and the giant section of atrocities of namboori priesthood,perpetrated on the hapless multitude ranging over centuries.you have to identify the fake from the real.The shankaracharya whom you have mentioned of having laid out customs and rules is of 16th century.he was probably from payyannoor and 'shankarasmrithi' is his book from which the 64 customs come out...parasurama brahmins colonized the coastal zone, segregating it into 64 villages ,with the local deities hacked into and re installed.'later they invaded the inland and hill tracts.It's true that the jain temples and deities were captured by namboori priesthood.'budhdhist sites also were not spared.there are well documented latest research studies withstanding the parameters'.Ayyappan of sabarimala was Ayyappan nair who lived in the 10th century.kannaki and ayyappan are all historical figures.ancestor worship was fused into idol worship using tantra and astrology.examine the various thanthric deities,and you will find laughing budhdhas and smiling jainas..along with these local ancestors given shaiva ,vaishnava,shaktheeya....berths .examine theyyam folklore and you will be more convinced. Muthappan in the north and Ayyappan in the south....'SYNCRETIZATION'...so we find that the so called contributions of these brahmin devatas were for their self serving connived purposes.They never believed in equality of man.their text's,arts ,temples etc.. were for them and the rulers..why have you not commented on the SMARTHAVICHARAM evil, which lasted till 1918..imagine the plight of those hapless women thrown into the dustbin of society.what about those lakhs who could not even walk on the main pathways let alone enter temples.who specifically prevented them? why did ViveKananda Swami exclaim that 'kerala is a lunatic asylum of castes'.why was there the need of The temple entry proclamation...the guruvayoor sathyagraha ....why social reformation was agressively lead by ayyankali,sreenarayanaguru..?read Duravastha written by mahakavi kumaranasan which mirrors the society.Our illustrious ancestor MAHABALI CHAKRAVARTHI was deceived.....whether it is 'VELI' or 'SAMBANDHAM' satisfaction was derived by these worthies....those who are fed with opium and those who trade in it will hail it....neonazis..the ku klux clan, it is global...........The ancient goddess at oorpazhachi kavu is still there beyond the temple structure and rituals.... The priesthood is still manipulating with black magic....these temples are never meant for the wellbeing of the ordinary truthful man.....it is for the politicians also to loot.....implications of deity manipulation is not simply historical,it affects the society through genetics...Real villager (talk) 10:50, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Bold text

So help me understand here. The godess legend of Oorpazhachi kavu is manufactured-so when a devotee visits this sanctum what is the name of the diety he has to worship? Again since the rituals and practices of Namboodiri tyrrants as you put it are all devious,do you suppose you have an alternate code of prayer? . This is true for all Hindu temples.If not for these iconography and rituals, an ordinary devotee has no hinduism.Temples as an institution and the associated paraphernalia are the only source of faith for the masses.Meditation and metaphysics can only bring comfort to limited intellectually inclined individuals and not the masses.Temples,gods,legends,rituals etc are the spiritual solace of the masses.So all you are doing by complaining that the diety is not gauri and the temple rituals are a farce is a mere inconsequential rambling.These things you are complaining is popular Hinduism as we practice today.If you feel so strongly about this issue,i suggest you can try mobilizing public opinion for reformation-try starting with the Sabarimalar temple in Kerala.Good luck. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vettakkorumakansnehi (talk • contribs) 19:08, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

the fakes

'The situation today is that you have 4 plus 'shankaracharyas 'in indiatoday' like the payyannor shankaracharya of the 16th century.these shankaracharyas travel with a truckload of idols and utensils.ADI SHANKHARACHARYA actually lived before christ. self-realized he was. kalady shankara was a thanthric worshipping triprasundari. so the 64 'aacharams are the namboori priesthood handiwork.Real villager (talk) 19:17, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

'I think that your approach is that there should always be illiterate masses for whom some ill managed contraption would be more than enough.I have already commented on the role of these temples.The brahmin priesthood developed temples from the Jaina format.these temples were exclusively reserved for the brahmin community, the ruling elite recogonised by the priest's,and the forward class communities.at the least for about ten centuries the common masses were denied access anywhere near temples.There is even a Theyyamnamed 'Pottan' in north malabar which underlines the situation.The common man has been visiting temples due to extensive marketting strategies. note that even the Marxist party in kerala has succumbed to this market,and chineese made traditional 'MALAAS' are being sold in the bhakthi market this time.In this discussion it is evident that how to abandon this lucrative market which ironically provides seasonal livelihood to many including the one god community who collect crores in the name of 'Vavar'.'Kshethram' means that which decays. so we should be SELF-reliant. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Real villager (talk • contribs) 05:15, 22 November 2010 (UTC) Real villager (talk) 05:16, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Let us keep the discussion focussed. Since your objection is to the Gowri-legend being fake and all rituals of the Nambudiris devious. You may want to suggest what ideas you propose for your (1) Reformation of Oorpazhachi-Kavu legends in particular about the Gowri legend issue- did you take up the issue with trustees or EO or even MDB to change it ? (2) other temples in General to address similar issues - how many temple administration did you approach with historical documents disproving their legends or make public petition of the falsity of their claims ? (3) How you intend to convince and transform the masses who prefer Nambudiri priests and their rituals - what social movements have you begun on ground to educate the masses ?. What actions have you taken on ground so far to address these issue you are complaining about here ? You can keep complaining about everything and anything and ramble for hours and drag this discussion without any consequence. In transaction analysis it is called - "I am ok you are not ok-attitude". People who find fault and compalin about everything and anything being wrong and not OK except themselves are not productive to bring about a resolution of issues. Therefore, come up with a precise solution proposal for the above three points and we can see how we can improve the feasibility of such a solution. Otherwise you would continue giving the impression to people that you are simply a cynic who is unable to see anything good in others except in yourself and whose only interest is in talking ill of everything in the world -by Vettakkorumakansnehi

online solutions

Reading about OorpazhCHI KAVU and probing in view of the genuine and otherwise 'SNEHAM' expressed by many publicly ,I have commented on this issue. some thirty years back there was a theft of the Thiruvabharanom reported at oorpazhachi kavu.it was later retrieved sans a golden flower melted or so.who was the culprit? you never examine the roots of Thanthra,Thanthri,Temples in kerala .you should examine the mindset of the worshippers.In a relatively strong civic society rituals never surface as solutions.you have to examine the' kali' legend in kerala context.[1]oorpazhachi kavu has no gauri legend mentioned anywhere.'kali' is a bloody deity worshipped by warring clans who at a point of time got it installed at oorpazhachi kavu .examine the mode of worship of the common. they just seek solace even if it is a godman.'Harry potter' has been able to make children think that he is there.so accordingly let gauri who is already there be left undisturbed.that must be your logic.Steps have already been initiated at the subtle level.you already know that the trustees ,eo,mdb are all colonial leftovers.examine the intricate powerplay by the worthy ancestors of this temple a hundred and fifty years back ,and you will see who called the shots.They played the game to the hilt even ,when it was hostile terrain.They knew that the so called mighty feat of vettakorumakan nair's son Kk kidavu was breaking of twenty thousand or so coconuts,and placing and taking a silken garment over the fire.Those ancestors commanded the multiple energy patterns programmed by the priesthood.The practitioners are here with the masters,and as you are also eager for the original man,it is a matter of identification process which I shall inform if interested.'I'am always ok....and you are correct ,the discussion takes to nowhere in the actual analysis.but the genetic manipulations perpetrated over centuries have to be corrected and can be corrected.Real villager (talk) 15:14, 22 November 2010 (UTC) B'old text

Unfortunately it looks like you are still unable to handle this discussion in a focussed and precise manner. Your answer is yet not precise and remains ambiguous in its precision with regards to the three questions I have put to you earlier. I see in your ambiguous response sans a realistic solution only a pretentious verbose that reeks of ostentatious concern of devotees. There is no point blaming a community or a trust or an individual office in a wikipedia discussion forum. If you have the historical documents to prove your point about falsity of legends that are being propagated to misguide devotees, then take legal recourse and prove your point with the respective temples and their administrations. The more appropriate place to begin such a cause would be the website of the community that are custodians of Oorpazhachi Kavu. You may want to start a discussion in www.edakkadnambiars.net, if you are genuinely interested in rectifying the state or use public interest litigations to rectify falsity of legends being propagated using counter-claims with appropriate historical documents. I can only empathize with your situation, you have to help yourself here (there are no online quick-fixes for social problems) and cribbing about everyone is not a solution.- by Vettakkorumakansnehi.

P.S : Hereditary trustees are not colonial leftovers but are last surviving threads of our heritage from pre-colonial Kerala. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vettakkorumakansnehi (talk • contribs) 11:23, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia,the ideal forum

The rhetorical questions ,three in number only show the limitations of studying the pertinent point.I find that many of the presumptions raised in support of your arguments have been radically updated, and my discussion are on the lines of those thesis,studies with documentary support.you may refer the recent.you may focus on these aspects.you have persistently tried to shift the focus from the manipulative namboori priesthood.I have focused my discussion here.The poverty stricken nambooris,simple and straight forward are never blamed.who would ever blame the revolutionary reformers in the namboori community like the stalwart V T Bhattathiripad,M R B,Premji etc Educating the masses had already begun at the time of Sreenrayana Guru,VTBhattathiripad.surreptitiously the neo-colonial forces have infiltrated in all these movements.Religion has become the biggest successful market worldwide.Viay mallya,the liquor baron has contributed the gold covering at sabarimala where supposedly abstinence is the prime word.one P N K menon of a big textile firm has weighed 65kg of gold as thulabharam at guruvayoor.the common gullible man takes these as motivation to a secure fulfilled future.Sabarimala generates crores of rupees annually which is exploited by various governmental agencies,to cover their deficit,without even providing basic amenities to the multitude.Examine carefully the precincts of Oorpazhashi Kavu,and you will get the answers to it's past including the gauri presence.The kavu is in a dismal state today ,is my observation.The kavu serves as a memory lane to its faraway custodian members.arrogant ignorance or ignorant arrogance ,that is the mindset.no visionaries or strategist's among the trustees for at the least a century.only malleable men who cannot even carry on a proper administration let alone think about the veracity of misplaced insertions.no competent,qualified EO.I can sent my observation if it will be of any assistance.much before the Land reforms, the Trustees and custodians of this 750 acre land owning Kavu was on an alienation spree for toddy,and various compromises .Surviving threads of Heritage, revealing the obviousReal villager (talk) 20:50, 25 November 2010 (UTC), .The kavu has to be transformed into a centre of meditation of the eternal.'Dharmosmath Kuladhaivatham,',this Da Vinci code will reveal the true nature of the earliest inhabitants here probably B C.Real villager (talk) 20:50, 25 November 2010 (UTC)Bold text Real villager (talk) 15:44, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

What a load of sanctimonious gibberish !!. Thanks for your offer for sending me your observations but i am sorry its difficult to trust veracity and sanity of information from verbal-zealots who can never find good in others as well as who can never see a fault in oneself......whose primary goal is cynical and sanctimonious gibberish stemming from lack of comprehensive anthropological/historical perspective as well as ignorance of difference between theoretic fantasies and practical realities. P.S: When you have successfully converted the temples in Kerala into a meditation centre and exterminated all the Brahmin priests... let me know. Good luck - Vettakkorumakansnehi — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vettakkorumakansnehi (talk • contribs) 13:22, 16 December 2010 (UTC)