Talk:North China

Inconsistent definition

The "heartland" of North China is described as the Yellow River Plain. The "Yellow River" flows through Shanxi ( the one with Xi'an in it ), Henan and Shandong. Yet none of these three provinces is colored on the adjoining map. This is confusing.Eregli bob (talk) 14:53, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

You're right. Henan as is northern Chinese as it gets, and excluding Shandong, where the Yellow river actually flows into the ocean, defies understanding. Shanxi holds no more of the river than Shaanxi (it's their border), and the Wei river valley in Shaanxi was a very important part of early Chinese civilization.65.7.1.214 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 12:32, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Sinkholes

I was surprised to find that the only comment under the section on "Geography" was: "North China sometimes has sinkholes." Is this so relevant that it should remain as the only comment on the geography of North China? If others agree, I think it should be removed and included (if it isn't already) in the main article on the Geography of China. Please let me know what you think. Thanks, John Hill (talk) 21:26, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

Edit to lead re location of empires

A reader (ticket:2016121510004362 ) noted that this sentence:

The vast region in China in the Yellow River Valley and north(wrong) to the Yangtze River was the centre of Chinese empires, and home to Confucian civilization.

is incorrect, and proposed:

The vast region in China from the Yellow River Valley south to the Yangtze River was the the centre of Chinese empires and home to Confucian civilization.

I am not an expert on the geography of China but based on my cursory review of a Google map, the proposed change sounds reasonable so I've gone ahead and made it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sphilbrick (talk • contribs) 21:53, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 19 October 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) — MaterialWorks 09:50, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

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• North China → Northern China
• South China → Southern China
• East China → Eastern China
• Northeast China → Northeastern China

– Fix grammar Cfls (talk) 22:32, 17 October 2023 (UTC) This is a contested technical request (permalink). Steel1943 (talk) 16:43, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

The following discussion thread was initiated on WP:RMTR. @Cfls, SilverLocust, and Rotideypoc41352: Pinging current participants for awareness. Steel1943 (talk) 16:49, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

@Cfls: I don't see how these are grammar errors. Either way is grammatical. Compare North India, East Asia. SilverLocust 💬 23:47, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support the move. Using "Eastern China" maintains this consistency and provides clear differentiation between the entire region and the specific eastern part of China.

Looking at international naming conventions, we often use the adjective form when referring to specific portions within a country or region. For instance:

• Western United States (not West United States)
• Eastern United States (not East United States)
• Southern United States (not South United States)
• Northern United States (not North United States)
• Southern France (not South France)
• Northern Canada (not North Canada)

To make the linguistic difference clearer, I would like cite the following examples:

Within the same state:

• Southern California
• Northern California

For the different states:

• North Carolina
• South Carolina

Within the same country:

• Northern Canada
• Western Canada
• Northern Italy
• Southern Italy

For the different countries:

• North Korea
• South Korea
• South Sudan
• East Germany
• West Germany

In our case, all the geographic portions are parts of the same country, namely China. Therefore, we should use Northern, Southern, Eastern, Western to modify the general region name. I may cite WP:TITLECON for this move. Cfls (talk) 15:53, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

WP:PCM and not a technical request—needs formal RM to determine WP:COMMONNAME. For example, East China is not synonymous with the eastern part of China; it's specifically the huadong region (as expressed in an oooold comment, Special:Diff/89097652). Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 22:03, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

There are plenty of counterexamples to this supposed rule. South Jersey, East London, Northern Ireland, Western Sahara. —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 13:15, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Comment: A potentially related article exists at Northern and southern China. Steel1943 (talk) 16:51, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose Not synonyms. For example, Zhejiang is part of southern China but not South China. (This is not to imply that it is not also part of East China / eastern China.) -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 21:03, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

  Aye, this seems like a classic "is this more of a geographical division or a cultural–political one", with examples falling all across the spectrum Remsense聊 22:32, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

  I saw what you mean. However, it is important to distinguish 南方地区 (Southern Region) and 华南 (Southern China). The provinces/regions of Jiangsu, Anhui, Zhejiang, Shanghai, Hubei, Hunan, Jiangxi, Fujian, Yunnan, Guizhou, Sichuan, Chongqing, Shaanxi, Guangxi, Guangdong, Hong Kong, Macau, Hainan, Henan and the other are all technically 南方地区 (Southern Region), but never referred as 华南 (Southern China). Please differentiate the two. In the entries, they are talking about 华东、华南、华北, which means Eastern China, Southern China, and Northern China. The divisions of 南方地区 and 北方地区 in China never ever have the country name prefixed. Cfls (talk) 20:09, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

  南方地区 (Southern Region) is not 华南 (Southern China), and vice versa. Cfls (talk) 20:12, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

  To me, southern China is 南方, and South China is 华南. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 04:45, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

  South, North, East, and West are usually used to describe separate entities, such as South Korea, North Korea, East Germany, West Germany, and South Sudan. We say Western United States (not West United States), Eastern United States (not East United States), Southern United States (not South United States), and Northern United States (not North United States). It is also the case we say Southern California and Northern California for the divisions within the State of California, but for the different states, we say North Carolina and South Carolina. Cfls (talk) 20:20, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

  We are talking about the part of China: 华北、华南、华东. We are not talking about the different states/countries 北中国、南中国、东中国. Hope you can understand the differentiation.

  My suggestion would be, we can have articles titled "Southern Region (China)" for 南方地区, and "Northern Region (China)" for 北方地区. However, for there, we shall use Southern/Northern/Eastern China for 华北、华南、华东, not South/North/East China for 北中国、南中国、东中国. Cfls (talk) 20:34, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

  More than that, there is no 东方地区 in China. So for the eastern part of China (i.e., Eastern China), there is also no ambiguity. Cfls (talk) 20:24, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose and close as no valid reason given. Clearly not a grammatical error, just what they are called and consistent with many other place names as per the examples given above.--2A04:4A43:90AF:FAB6:C016:D1C7:156B:C218 (talk) 22:18, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose I reject the suggested rule that "North X" constructions should only apply to countries, and regions must use "Northern X". I see no other argument for this move. Walt Yoder (talk) 21:26, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose As others have mentioned, there can be some ambiguity between South China vs. southern China. It's also more WP:COMMON especially given the South China Sea. Ngram search for North, South and East show that the current titles are much more common. Even something geographically unambiguous as East(ern) China, East China is 18 times more common than Eastern China. With West China and Western China, the two are becoming more interchangeable but West China still wins slightly. But I would argue to keep it as is for consistency.EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 00:25, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.