Talk:Norman Chaney

Move request

This article has been renamed from Norman "Chubby" Chaney to Norman Chaney as the result of a move request. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Plasticspork (talk • contribs) 19:46, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

For move discussion see Talk:Allen Hoskins —Preceding unsigned comment added by Keith D (talk • contribs) 23:31, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

History of Unsourced Edits

"Encyclopedic content must be verifiable" - Wikipedia

For two years now there has been some confusion on Wikipedia regarding the birthdate of Norman Chaney. The Leonard Maltin-Richard W. Bann book "The Little Rascals: The Life and Times of Our Gang" (2nd Edition, Crown Publishers, 1992, pp. 254-255) lists it as January 18, 1918, as do the vast majority of websites where he's mentioned. The edit history of this article clearly shows how this was corrupted with pure speculation and unverifiable claims.

Apparently the origin of this was IMDb, where the 1914 birthdate first appeared (unsourced). On July 9, 2007, an unregistered user (IP 76.1.227.210) added a question mark after Chaney's DOB and this piece of speculation: "The internet movie database lists his date as 1914. It is possible that his age was falsified so he could get into Our Gang...Still, his age is not known for sure".

There the matter rested until August 6, 2008, when Daviddaniel37 changed Chaney's birthdate to January 18, 1914, making the above speculation appear as fact even though he didn't edit the bio to reflect this as well. Not so coincidentally, perhaps, there are some rather lively comments on his discussion page re unsourced edits.

On September 14, 2008, another unregistered user (IP 96.10.116.210) edited in claims regarding the 1920 Baltimore Census and Chaney's death certificate, and changed the DOB to November 1, 1914. Again, no verifiable sources or links. Red flags should've gone up right there, and in fact the article was tagged as unsourced by Pinkadelica on December 8, 2008. This disclaimer remained for a year, but so did the unsourced claims of a 1914 DOB.

We now have contributors reposting this suspect "information" at will. None of them have met Wikipedia's requirements of verifiability by providing freely accessible sources or links, so others can see for themselves if what's being posted is truth or bunk. The most recent, Stembark, asserted in his edit note that the Maltin-Bann book "relied only on studio records". Over a period of two decades, Maltin and Bann interviewed nearly all of the surviving Rascals or their families and conducted extensive research in both public and private archives. "Our Gang" producer Hal Roach himself helped them in their efforts. And although the 2nd edition of "The Little Rascals" is now 17 years old and hasn't been updated, it is still considered definitive on the subject.

So, who are we to believe? Two historians who are regarded as the foremost authorities on "Our Gang", or users (key ones unregistered) who won't back their stuff up with anything but more talk? It's up to the latter to prove what they're putting here, and that does not mean entering the same unverifiable claims under "references".

At this point some Admin input would be most welcome. Bobbnoxious2 (talk) 08:31, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Hi, I'm one of the persons who has entered what you have deemed 'unverifiable.' First let me say that I have no dog in this fight, but I have reason to believe the 1914 DOB over the 1918 DOB. As indicated, the Maltin Bann book was last published in 1992. At that time, they had no access to census records or his death certificate, and there's no indication that any remaining Chaney relatives were consulted, so there's nothing to corroborate their cite. Those sources are available now, and would seem to trump a book last published in 1992--and that particular info was in the 1977 version--and has probably not been revisited AND which relied simply on the studio archive records. Chubby's DOB was not the only one later to be found in error. And the Maltin/Bann book, while the standard of information on the subject, is not without its errors. Also, while Chubby's death certificate isn't online, it is available, and the 1920 census is most definitely online. Once again, I ask, how do official government documents not trump studio records? Stembark (talk) 21:20, 19 December 2009 (UTC)Stembark

In response to Stembark:

1. Your recent edits most certainly put your "dog" in this "fight". And your failure to specifically source is consistent with all the others claiming the 1914 DOB.

2. You have not addressed the dubious provenance of the original claims, unsourced edits by unregistered users. The edit history reads like people taking speculation and running with it, as people are wont to do, and with no proof whatsoever.

3. If you are going to challenge encyclopedic content from a reliable source, the onus is on you to prove it. So if you have copies of Chaney's death certificate and those 1920 census records, you should post them online where they are freely available to the public. Just saying something doesn't make it so, and basically telling people "Yes, the information is out there, go find it" doesn't qualify as verifiability under Wikipedia's or any other standards.

4. Regarding your statement about Maltin and Bann, "At that time, they had no access to census records or his death certificate. Those sources are available now" - that's ridiculous. As if government halls of records didn't exist before the internet. Chaney's bio was slightly revised for the 1992 edition, and your saying "it probably wasn't revisited" suggests to me that you don't have a copy of the book handy (if you own it at all). This from someone repeatedly changing the factual data of this article.

5. There is no place in the encyclopedic content of this article for your vague "reason to believe". This is about verifiable facts, and so far you haven't come up with any. Bobbnoxious2 (talk) 04:42, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Copy of Norman Myers Chaney's death cert: http://s294.photobucket.com/albums/mm119/badger60/?action=view&current=scan0001.jpg

Link to census records: http://www.1930census.com/

Both official government records confirming the 1914 DOB. In the absence of information trumping this, I shall be changing the DOB to match the information matching official documentation. Thanks for your input. Stembark (talk) 18:09, 8 March 2010 (UTC)Stembark

To address your contentions point by point:

1. The sources for the 1914 DOB were attributed; Maltin/Bann does not. The 1920 Maryland census available online shows Norman M. Chaney born "about 1914". That's consistent with the DOB on the death cert, which gives an age of "21 years, 6 months, 28 days."

2. I'm puzzled how the official government documents can be considered of "dubious provenance" given the alternative which has no attribution. The corroborating source documentation was listed; Maltin/Bann does not.

3. re: "encyclopedic content", see *below. I agree that the onus to change vital information is on the person who wants to make the change; thus the citations given.

4. If they had access, they didn't use it, else the date would have been corrected. And so far as changing the "factual" data, while most of the article is on the up and up, the DOB does not appear to be factual according to available records. I also have no idea of the cause of death, but attending doctors attributed it to myocarditis. There's no indication that they ever determined what his mysterious 'glandular ailment' was, or what the operation was supposed to accomplish. They also give his weight at one time as being

5. My 'reason to believe' is based on more recent and more reliable records, just as your 'reason to believe' is based on the Maltin/Bann book, as neither of us was in attendance at Chubby's birth. I personally have more faith in the contemporary documents than what showed up in later years. And for "verifiable facts," simply put, the Maltin/Bann book by itself is not a reliable source for some vital information. It was last updated in 1992, and some of the errors/discrepancies go back to the previous edition.

• Again, I commend the job that Maltin and Bann did no the book, but it does have its errors, and they haven't been corrected in almost two decades. Among them:

1) Mary Kornman’s DOB: M/B says 1917; official records say 1915

2) Joe Cobb’s DOB: M/B says 1917; official records say 1916

3) M/B strongly implies that a Spanky impostor was in the movie “Moonrunners.” In fact, it was singer Spanky McFarlane. They mention her immediately after saying this, without making the connection, so they apparently never watched the movie.

4) Consistently credit a “Billy Ray Smith” with roles actually portrayed by Vincent Graeff.

5) Have Joe Cobb listed in the short “Bouncing Babies.”

6) List an “impostor” Harry Spear having died. In fact, it was not an impostor, but a different actor named Harry Spear who had several roles as extras in the 1960s.

7) Consistently misspell Gary Jasgur’s name as Gary Jasgar.

8) Mentions Robert Blake’s father and sister as being “The Three Little Hillbillies.” While his parents were part of their act, it was Blake and his two siblings James and Giovanna who where the three *little* hillbillies. Also in Blake's bio, they curiously omit any reference to his two siblings as having appeared in the "Our Gang" series. In other bios, they at least acknowledge the siblings (cf. Spanky, Alfalfa, Wheezer).

9) "There is not published or private source for cast credits or character parts. . . ." (Maltin/Bann pg ix) Just about all of the cast listings and production notes are available in the Hal Roach and MGM archives at USC.

There are probably others, but those are some that I could come up with quickly. A good book, but does have errors, and the official documentation is at odds with their research in a number of cases.

There are definately conflicts in the various sources, and I tend to want to simply look at the death certificate and say ok, Norman was born November 1914, just like it says. However, regarding Norman's appearance during his two years on Our Gang, it just does not seem likely that he was 14 years old when he started and 16 when he finished. Heck, he's older than Joe Cobb, and that's the person he was hired to replace since he was getting too old. Are you telling me that this boy flying a kite on "Fly My Kite," was old enough to get a license to drive a car by today's laws? It's too bad that there are no employment records with birth information available from Hal Roach Studios. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AHProctor (talk • contribs) 03:00, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Stembark (talk) 15:13, 20 December 2009 (UTC)Stembark

edit warring

Please discontinue edit warring and (continue to) discuss your edits on this talk page. It sounds like both of you could use a thorough reading of WP:RS and WP:V. If you need outside help, perhaps post to WT:ACTOR. tedder (talk) 08:46, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Death certificate

I have a copy of Norman Myers Chaney's death certificate from the City of Baltimore which gives his date of birth as November 1, 1914. It's a public record and easily attainable through the Maryland State Archives. The certificate number is F-24460. Also, an Ancestry check of the 1920 census (before he went to Hollywood and his family apparently decided to shave a few years of his age) will confirm that he was 5 years old in January of 1920. I'd be happy to post an image of the death certificate if someone would be kind enough to tell me how! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Collibosher150 (talk • contribs) 14:21, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

A page showing a copy of the death certificate is linked above, and a direct link to the scanned image is here. It clearly gives the date of birth as "Nov 1 - 1914". It seems to me that this a more reliable source Maltin and Bann's book. Also, that "the vast majority of websites where he's mentioned" support the date in the book is not very strong evidence, as their source is likely to be that book (or websites which in turn used the book as a source) since that book seems to be the principal published source about Chaney. In addition to this, a 1930 census search gives a Norman M Chaney of Baltimore, Maryland, born "about 1914", and no other Norman M Chaney anywhere in Maryland, and no other Norman Chaney in Maryland that could possibly be him. Exactly the same result is confirmed by a similar search for the 1920 census. Of course it would be nice to have an exact date, but as corroboration for the death certificate date these two searches seem fairly persuasive. The likelihood of an error many decades later by the authors of a book is far greater than the likelihood that a two year old should have been listed on a census as five years old, let alone that the same child when twelve should be listed as 15. When this dispute first started it was reasonable to say that the 1914 date was unsourced, but that is no longer so. It seems that the 1914 date is now much more likely, and much more reliably sourced too. JamesBWatson (talk) 10:05, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

The 1918 information was re-added, and I removed it per the discussion above. I cannot find any sources other than IMDb which state that he was born in 1918, and IMDb is not noted for accuracy. Reaper Eternal (talk) 22:24, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Allmovie also has the 1918 date. Keith D (talk) 22:29, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

And I just found two more conflicting sources! Webster's Online Dictionary affirms the January 18, 1918 date [1], but the Maryland State Archives affirms the November 1, 1914 date [2]. Reaper Eternal (talk) 23:49, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

The New York Daily News believes in the 1914 date as well. It mentions that he died at 22 years old, and since it was 1936 when he died, he was born in 1914. [3] Reaper Eternal (talk) 23:56, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Unclear statement

I removed the following sentence, "Chaney won his spot in "Our Gang" in a nationwide talent contest to replace Cobb, who later said of his successor,"and collapsed the paragraph containing that sentence into the one before it. The sentence was redundant; the last sentences in the previous paragraph made the same statements. More importantly, as it was written, the sentence I removed was attributed to two people: Joe Cobb, at the head of the sentence; Robert McGowan at the tail of the sentence. I don't have the book so I'm just guessing McGowan made the statement.

I also rewrote the sentence about the slow burn.Uncle Vince 21:40, 6 May 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Unclevince (talk • contribs)