Talk:Nikola Tesla/Nationality and ethnicity/Archive 10

Archive 5

←

Archive 8

Archive 9

Archive 10

Archive 11

Archive 12

→

Archive 15

charitable edit summaries

Like this. I "attempted to change" the "nationality" from "Serb" ... to "Serb". Yes, Austrian Croatia was part of the Austrian Empire. This fact doesn't change the fact that Tesla's family was ethnically Serbian, and it is patently untrue to claim that my edit has "attempted" to obscure this fact. Please take a step back, it does seem you are a little too invested here and see any bona fide edit adding additional content through the lens of this "nationality" nonsense. The "nationality" of Tesla was "Hungarian" from 1867. This is just a label the authorities agreed on in the Austro-Hungarian Compromise of 1867, it doesn't mean he had anything to do with Hungary. His ethnicity was Serbian, more specifically, his family was descended from the Serbs who had moved to the Austrian Empire in the late 17th century, escaping from the Ottomans. --dab (𒁳) 06:55, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

Well, it is not sure that from 1867 Tesla's nationality would be Hungarian, if he did not acquired Austrian citizenship earlier, only from 1879 it would be possible. However the details are on the relevant talk page: here.(KIENGIR (talk) 22:10, 12 May 2017 (UTC))

Just as remark, Tesla had nothing to do with Austrian Croatia but he was born, and lived in the Austrian Military Frontier which was outside jurisdiction of either Croatia or Hungary. FkpCascais (talk) 23:52, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

That is laughably wrong. "In 1783 it [Croatian Military Frontier] was placed under the unified control of the Croatian General Command headquartered in Zagreb. Tesla was born after 1783 in the CMF. It was not Austrian. Even the article for CMF mentions it as such. Seems one is trying to remove Croatia from the equation. How Tesla "Had nothing to fo with Austrian Croatia" is rediculous.

Source: CITATIONClose[2] Gunther Erich Rothenberg: The Military Border in Croatia, 1740-1881: a study of an imperial institution, University of Chicago Press, 1966, p. 63 OyMosby (talk)

@Dbachmann:, I reverted some of your WP:BOLD edits. There is long standing consensus for the version I reverted to. The consensus has been challenged several times, each time failing to gain a new consensus for major changes to Tesla's nationality/citizenship/ethnicity. Generally, we have opted to follow Tesla's main biographers in this regard.

If a consensus can be formed here to make some or all of the changes in your bold edit, then it can be brought to the main talk page for a broader discussion, and to seek a wider consensus.- MrX 10:57, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

Croatian Military Frontier?

(moved from Talk:Nikola Tesla#Croatian Military Frontier? per 16 June 2015 RfC consensus)

Never ever existed. That was actually Austrian Military Frontier. Part of that territory was incorporated into Croatia in 1881. O'Neil is falsely referenced: p. 9 "in the Austro-Hungarian border province of Lika", p. 12 "the village where Tesla was born, in the province of Lika, and the time of his birth this was a dependent province held by Austro-Hungarian Empire as a part of Croatia and Slovenia." (The last quote is factually wrong as to Croatia and Slovenia)--Taribuk (talk) 07:39, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

In addition, the Cheney, Margaret; Uth, Robert; Glenn, Jim (1999). p. 143 does not support by a single word the Croatian Military Frontier notion.--Taribuk (talk) 10:45, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

If something is not verifiable in the cited sources, it should be removed. That doesn't require a history lesson, or even a discussion (unless someone can actually show that it is verifiable in the sources).- MrX 12:38, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

I have restored the version of the text before original research was apparently added here and here in June by 23 editor.- MrX 14:24, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

If the Croatian Military Frontier never ever existed, you should take that up at Talk:Croatian Military Frontier because we then have a huge case of WP:Hoax floating around for 13 years. Surtsicna (talk) 14:33, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

Let's stay on topic. It's either in the relevant sources it's not. It appears that it's not and the issue has been resolved.- MrX 14:39, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

The new (old) wording is even worse: "Nikola Tesla was born an ethnic Serb in the village Smiljan, and county Lika, Croatia, of the Austrian Empire, on 10 July [O.S. 28 June] 1856.". Nether Cheney, Glenn nor O'Neill mentioned Croatia, which is online verifiable. Moreover, a part of Austrian Military Frontier the Tesla's birth place belonged to, was handed to the Croatia in 1881. Tesla's year of birth was 1856. Therefore, the correct statement should be: "Nikola Tesla was born an ethnic Serb in the village Smiljan, and county Lika, Military Frontier, of the Austrian Empire, on 10 July [O.S. 28 June] 1856."--Taribuk (talk) 15:12, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

References

MrX, the claim can be sourced to a biography which is already in the bibliography section of this article. "At that time Croatia was the military frontier district of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and the area was sometimes referred to as the Krajina." This is entirely in line with our article about the Croatian Military Frontier, which suggests that it is not a hoax after all and that the proper link should be restored with the proper citation. To not mention Croatia at all, as suggested by Taribuk, is odd and not historically justifiable. I do agree, however, that citations throughout the article should be verified; a citation in the very lead sentence does not support the material next to it. Surtsicna (talk) 15:23, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

Cheney p.143 supports the text, provided that we add "present day" as qualifier in front of Croatia. I will add that. (I think it was there previously, or perhaps only in the lead?) - MrX 15:30, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

@ Surtsicna: You are applying WP:SYNTH. Carlson p.13 (which is not cited) says "At the time, Croatia was the military frontier district of the Austro-Hungarian Empire...". It does not say Tesla was born in the Croatian military district".- MrX 15:38, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

I do not follow, MrX. What synthesis? Carlson is cited in the article (though not page 13), and he clearly says that Tesla was born in Smiljan, which was then in Croatia, itself a district of the military frontier, i.e. Croatian Military Frontier.
"Nikola Tesla was born in 1856 in Smiljan in the province of Lika in what is today Croatia. At that time Croatia was the military frontier district of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and the area was sometimes referred to as the Krajina."
Should we really pretend not to understand that "Croatia was the military frontier district" means "Croatian Military District"? If so, another book from among the references already cited plainly says: "Born in Lika, Croatia - then part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire - in 1856..." Surtsicna (talk) 16:09, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

We don't need to mention anything about a military frontier. It doesn't matter. It has nothing to do with Tesla or his inventions. The text is fine as it is. Also, WP:DUEWEIGHT.- MrX 16:19, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

Of course we don't need to mention anything about a military frontier. We can just as well mention "Lika, Croatia" per the last source. I agree that far too much emphasis is placed on these things, but I would contend that Tesla's place of birth is at least as relevant as his ethnicity, which is (for whatever reason) made as prominent as possible, being mentioned in the lead sentence as the very first thing about him. The present wording suggests that Smiljan was not in Croatia back in the day, which is not true and obviously not supported by the sources cited in the article. Surtsicna (talk) 16:29, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

I agree with MrX in supporting the original wording

"Nikola Tesla was born an ethnic Serb in the village Smiljan, Lika county, in the Austrian Empire (present day Croatia)..."

Mentioning a "military frontier" is off-topic and will cause endless arguments. Also, the current wording was decided by an extensive RfC on July 2014 (see Talk:Nikola_Tesla/Nationality_and_ethnicity/Archive_3) so I think any changes require an RfC. Also, this discussion should be moved to Talk:Nikola Tesla/Nationality and ethnicity unless we decide to merge these two Talk pages again. --Chetvorno^TALK 17:37, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

I agree that this should be moved to the subpage.- MrX 17:52, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, Taribuk, but who are you to give history lessons? Please use sources. The "present day" addition would go against Surtsicna's as it would imply that Smiljan was not a part of Croatia, while we have a source saying Born in Lika, Croatia. There's also that very known quote from Tesla that he was born in Croatia. So with all that in mind, how come you are doing a long way to leave that fact out of article with subtle implications like "now a part of Croatia"Bilseric (talk) 20:23, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

I'm not giving lessons to anybody. If you want sources, apply Google search: Military Frontier Austria and you'll get the fact I pointed at. Tesla never said anything about being born in Croatia. Bilseric = Asdisis?--Taribuk (talk) 07:06, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

Everyone should be aware that this topic has been argued and wrangled about continuously for 10 years, since 2007, and most of the arguments you are making have already been discussed in the 9 archives listed at the top of the page. @Taribuk: @Bilseric: Tesla's statements on his nationality are of course irrelevant; many people self-identify with a nationality that is different from their legal birth nationality. Let's try to stay on topic. Cheers --Chetvorno^TALK 07:43, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

To quote Tesla"I was born in Croatia"[1]Bilseric (talk) 18:49, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

The quote is taken out of the context. That can be understood no more than "my birthplace is in today's Croatia". That quote for certain cannot be used to prove that Tesla thought he was born in Croatia.--Taribuk (talk) 20:23, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

This primary source that comes directly from Tesla is backed up by secondary sources

"At that time Croatia was the military frontier district of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and the area was sometimes referred to as the Krajina.".Bilseric (talk) 21:32, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

@Bilseric = Asdisis. There are hundreds of references proving that Austrian Military Frontier was not Croatia.--Taribuk (talk) 06:59, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

"After many pleas from Jelecic, in 1850 the King's proclamation, which was signed by all 8 Austrian ministers, was finally announced...For Military Frontier, the King decided that it will remain within its present territory. However, it will with, Croatia and Slavonia, constitute a single land with disaggregated provincial and military administration, and representation." [2] , page 157.Bilseric (talk) 08:41, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

@Bilseric = Asdisis. Please, don't spam further.
Austria, Croatia, and Slovenia, Britannica Educational Publishing, Britanncia Educational Publishing, Jun 1, 2013 page 166
The request was rejected, but the Military Frontier was rejoined to Croatia in 1881.--Taribuk (talk) 09:08, 2 November 2017

In the sense that provincial and military administration, and representation was not disaggregated any more. Bilseric (talk) 09:17, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

Just to remind everyone, concluding from separate sources on the "aggregation" of the "provincial and military administration" that the area should be called "Austrian Military Frontier" or "Croatian Military Frontier" is WP:SYNTHESIS. The only sources that can be used are sources that discuss Tesla's birthplace explicitly. --Chetvorno^TALK 20:51, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

To repeat Surtsicna.

"Nikola Tesla was born in 1856 in Smiljan in the province of Lika in what is today Croatia. At that time Croatia was the military frontier district of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and the area was sometimes referred to as the Krajina.. Bilseric (talk) 21:56, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

What is happening here? What nonsense is this one? There was a Croatia ruled by Hungary within Austrian empire, and there was the Military Frontier which was directly ruled bz Austria in which Tesla was borned. The Military Frontier was an Austrian province internaly divided into sections, but that is already going into too much detail. Tesla was born in Smiljan, Military Frontier, Austrian empire. More correct than this, impossible. This was already debated into any single virgula, setled. FkpCascais (talk) 22:08, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

Can of worms #2

First, they call him Yugoslav-American, second, they call him Serbian-American, third, they call him American with Serbian ethnicity. He was an imigrant to America. His contribution was mostly in America. But he was born in Austro-Hungary(modern day Croatia). I have nothing against Serbs, I respect them as a powerful nation with great contribution in the world. But why is mentioned that he is Serbian-AMERICAN, and not Croatian, or at least Austo-Hungarian(which he was). If he declares that he is proud of his Serbian origin and Croatian fatherland, it would be more correct to call him "Croatian-born Serbian inventor". Matijafratric (talk) 16:40, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

One remark: He was not born in Austria-Hungary, this entity were created in 1867. To call him "Austro-Hungarian" would be problematic, since there is not known him having Hungarian citzenship ever or any Hungarian origin.(KIENGIR (talk) 23:15, 28 July 2018 (UTC))

Opening that can of worms again...

It is sad that this is what generates most debates about this man, but I cannot help feeling that describing Tesla as a "Serbian-American inventor" is grossly dishonest. He accomplished nothing in Serbia or thanks to Serbia. He received basically no support from Serbia and Yugoslavia, nor even much appreciation until he gained worldwide fame in another country, on another continent. Is it really unacceptable to describe him as an American inventor in the lead sentence and as a Serb in the next sentence, per WP:OPENPARA#Context? Surtsicna (talk) 12:14, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

"Serbian-American" is a phrase denoting/stressing the ethnic origins of an American (Tesla, a naturalised American). In short, Tesla was an ethnic Serb and American inventor. A simple truth, not acceptable to some people, you included. --Taribuk (talk) 20:36, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

Your "simple truth" is exactly what I wrote in the last sentence of the first comment ("an American inventor in the lead sentence and as a Serb in the next sentence") so of course it's acceptable to me. WP:OPENPARA#Context says very clearly, however, that ethnic origins should not be mentioned in the lead sentence. Madonna (GA) is not defined as an Italian American singer, Barack Obama (FA) is not defined as an African American politician, Bruce Willis (GA) is not defined as a German American actor, etc. Surtsicna (talk) 23:24, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

Looks like a Serb ethnicity is being put forward, ignoring the fact that "Serbian" is also a nationality. WP:OPENPARA#Context notes previous nationalities or the place of birth should not be mentioned in the lead unless they are relevant to the subject's notability. Since every biography on Tesla notes he was "Serbian-American" and covers his early life (when many events happened), it is "relevant to the subject's notability". Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 01:12, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

Agreed. We have to read WP:OPENPARA#Context carefully and understand it correctly, in the spirit of the Wikipedia Fifth pillar. Surtsicna main point is: "Serbian-American inventor" is grossly dishonest. He accomplished nothing in Serbia or thanks to Serbia. Apparent logical fallacy based on misinterpretation of the quoted phrase.--Taribuk (talk) 10:35, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

In addition, Tesla was a member of the Serbian Royal Academy of Sciences and Art as of 1894, which is enough to accept the "Serbian-American" in the sense Surtsicna does not want.--Taribuk (talk) 12:48, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

Fountains of Bryn Mawr, if we are to regard "Serbian" as a nationality and "Serb" as an ethnicity, which is correct but often confused, then we have to take into account the fact that Tesla was not a Serbian national. He spent a total of 30 hours or so in Serbia. If we are to equate nationality with ethnicity, then you have to admit that there is no point in making a distinction between them in the Manual of Style.
I don't understand your argument that every biography on Tesla notes that he was Serbian-American; it appears that only 2 out of 14 biographies cited as references in this article describe him as such. One refers to him as an American scientist. One even describes him as a "Croatian-born (naturalized American) electrical engineer". It does not appear to be so clear-cut. Surtsicna (talk) 15:52, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

We don't tally sources, we weigh them, going by what is in the best sources (and we do not go by what is in a Wikipedia article as a source). Tesla, Inventor of the Electrical Age by W. Bernard Carlson, Tesla: Man Out of Time By Margaret Cheney, Tesla, Master of Lightning By Margaret Cheney and Robert Uth, Prodigal Genius: The Life of Nikola Tesla By John J. O'Neill and Wizard: The Life and Times of Nikola Tesla : Biography of a Genius By Marc J. Seifer all describe Tesla's origins as "Serbian". Since Tesla spent almost 30 years of his life somewhere else (and formulated some of his inventions in that "elsewhere"), we can not call him simply "American". All sources tell us Tesla is a hyphenated - American and the best sources tell us what that is. Its something that is not going to change unless there is a very strong secondary counter source (actually several very strong secondary counter sources). Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 18:52, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

@Surtsicna This Google search shows over a hundred "Serbian-American" adjectives assigned to Tesla in over a hundred references. As to your "He spent a total of 30 hours ": From Fritz E. Froehlich, Allen Kent: The Froehlich/Kent Encyclopedia of Telecommunications: Volume 17 - Television Technology, CRC Press, Dec 1, 1998 page 37:
He stayed six weeks in Serbia; lecturing, visiting family, and receiving a decoration from King Aleksander I. He also visited the famous Serbian poet, Zmaj Jovanovich, whose work Tesla (a poet himself) idolized.

Question: Surtsicna repeats Asdisis. Can we assume Surtsicna = Asdisis and stop his spamming here?--Taribuk (talk) 06:57, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

It seems that Taribuk disagrees with Fountains of Bryn Mawr on whether to tally or weigh the sources...
Anyway, Fountains of Bryn Mawr, there is no dispute that Tesla was a Serb. My concern is that hyphenating Serbian with American is a misleading conflation of two different things; one denotes his ethnicity and not his citizenship, and the other his citizenship and not his ethnicity. He was not Serbian in the same sense as he was American, nor vice versa. Tesla did accomplish a lot "elsewhere", but Serbia is not anywhere in this "elsewhere", which is what the hyphenation suggests. Alternatively, it suggests that he was an ethnic Serb as well as an ethnic American. The Manual of Style also clearly advises against emphasizing the subject's ethnicity in the lead sentence unless it's what makes the subject notable. And since all biographies discuss the subject's early life (if anything about it is known), it would then appear, by your argument, that everyone's ethnicity is "relevant to the subject's notability". That is obviously not the case. In my humble opinion, claiming that a genius such as Tesla is notable due to his ethnicity is ridiculous.
To Taribuk, the brave knight defending her or his nation from its omnipresent enemies (such a 19th-century pursuit!), I have nothing more to say. Well, I do, but I will resist the urge. Surtsicna (talk) 00:26, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

American is not an ethnicity. If someone is a hyphenated - American then they have to have come from somewhere. In a part of the world were citizenship is very fluid, well, they will picked his closest relationship. Sources on Tesla picked Serbian-American [3][4]. At that point we follow WP:V, it is an uphill battle requiring better sourcing to overturn that. We can not add our own views to an articles simply because we believe them to be correct. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 01:25, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

@Surtsicna: Pay attention to these logical fallacies: "it suggests that he was an ethnic Serb as well as an ethnic American", "claiming that a genius such as Tesla is notable due to his ethnicity is ridiculous". So, Surtsicna suggests and claims and said that his/her suggestion and claim are ridiculous! Are all those Tesla's biographers nuts just for using "Serbian-American" attribute when mentioning Tesla? In addition, Tesla being a Serbian Royal Academy of Sciences and Art member was entitled to a monthly salary for over 38 years (1894-1943). That way Serbia, and after Kingdom of Yugoslavia, supported Tesla's work and research financially. That way Tesla was a Serbian researcher and scientist.--Taribuk (talk) 06:51, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

I am afraid you did not understand my point, Fountains of Bryn Mawr. "American" is indeed not an ethnicity. It refers to Tesla's citizenship. "Serbian" does not (and cannot) refer to Tesla's citizenship or indeed to his place of birth but only to his ethnicity. In the syntagm "Serbian-American inventor" , "Serbian-American" can refer either to two countries or to a mixed ethnicity. To me, it definitely looks like a reference to two countries. A hyphenated - American does have to come from somewhere. Tesla did indeed come from somewhere, and that's not Serbia.
I see no indication that your premise ("every biography on Tesla notes he was 'Serbian-American'") is actually correct. In fact, I have shown that it is not. Not every biography says that. It's also verifiably not true that "all sources tell us Tesla is a hyphenated - American". I gave you two examples of sources cited in the article that tell us something else. First you refer to "every biography" and "all sources", but when that is proven wrong, you say that we weigh sources rather than tally them; but there is no explanation as to why the two sources describing Tesla as "Serbian-American" outweigh the two that describe him otherwise. And then we are back to literally counting the sources again. Surtsicna (talk) 21:51, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

As to how to weigh sources, please read WP:RS. The rest of it is not something that would survive a RfC, you present an argument based on a POV without counter sources. That simply won't fly and is pointless to keep going around in circles about. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 22:27, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

I would like to change this in Serbian-Croatian-American inventor

I don't have nothing against Serbs or Americans, but at least be fair enough to put Croat in.

There are some hidden evidences in Nikola Tesla's museum in Belgrade where he said for himself to be Croat and how he was happy that Croats call him like that.

Proof can be found in Petar Vučić's(Croatian writer) book "Govor hrvatima o ispravnom putu" on page 43 where Tesla himself claimed his ancestors are noble families Kalinichi and Draganichi.

Also, Croatian historian Ljubica Štefan, while she was in Belgrade, saw the unpublished diary of Nikola Tesla with this sentences:

“Sretan sam što me Hrvati smatraju svojim, jer su moji predci hrvatski koljenovići, Draginići iz Zadra. Kao hrvatski plemići Draginići su došli u Liku u XIV. stoljeću i tu ostali. U Liku su moji predci došli preko Novog Vinodola. Predci moje majke, Kalinići, također su hrvatski plemići i oni su iz Novoga Vinodola. Moj pradjed stjecajem okolnosti morao je otići u Bosansku Krajinu (Turska Hrvatska) - tamo se oženio pravoslavnom djevojkom i prešao na pravoslavlje. On je imao isturene prednje zube pa ga je narod prozvao teslom, prema alatki kojom se obrađuje drvo i otuda je moje sadašnje prezime TESLA. To je, zapravo, nadimak. Moj djed je bio časnik u ličkoj regimenti, a moj otac pravoslavni prota.”

In translation:

"I am happy that Croats consider themselves my own because they are mine predecessors of Croatian knees, Draginići from Zadar. As Croatian nobles Draginići came to Lika in XIV. century. My ancestors came to Lika over Novi Vinodol in Lika. My mother's ancestors, Kalinići, are also Croatian nobles and they are from Novi Vinodolski. My grandfather had to go to Bosanska Krajina (Turkey) - there married an Orthodox girl and went to Orthodoxy. He had been stretched out front teeth, so people have been called by tesla, according to the tool used to handle wood and hence my current surname TESLA. That is, in fact, a nickname. My grandfather was an officer in Lika regiment, and my father is Orthodox priest." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Matijafratric (talk • contribs) 19:18, 17 June 2018 (UTC) Citing Croatian sources is not something to brag about since it's very possible that they are biased. Croatian writers do tend to invert the truth especially when it comes then in handydzaja (talk) 11:59, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 October 2018

(moved from Talk:Nikola Tesla#Semi-protected edit request on 24 October 2018 per 16 June 2015 RfC consensus --Chetvorno^TALK 18:05, 24 October 2018 (UTC))

Nikola Tesla-was a Serbian-American,can you change this phrase to Serbo-Croatian,because Tesla's mother was Croatian and he was born in Smiljan in todays Croatia,and was never part of Serbia,just because his father was Serb doesn't mean Tesla was Serbian,he has genes of a Serbian but that just makes no sense,if you are born in Africa and your father is Croatian it doesn't mean you are Croatian,soo please change that because it's not correct,or you can change the subject to Serbo-Croat-American inventor that would be even better,but dont leave it like he is Serb because he isn't. Here is the statement that he said...Nikola Tesla is Croatian Orthodox from Croatia! Here's the evidence, "I'm glad Croats are thinking of me because my ancestors are Croat's Draganić from Zadar. As a Croatian noblemen in the 16th century they came to Lika and the rest of them. In Lika my obstacles came through New Vinodol. My mother's ancestors, Kalinic, are also Croatian noblemen from Novi Vinodolski. My grandfather had to go to the Bosanska Krajina (Turkey), where he married an Orthodox girl and went to Orthodoxy. He had protruding front teeth, and the people called him Tesla to the tool that was treating wood, and so on, and my present name, Tesla. It's actually a nickname '. (Tesla's secret diary, published in 1977 at TV Zagreb, without a denial) There is other evidence. That's why plenty of lying and self-indulging more. Not all Orthodox (ethnic) Serbs! Gogi2323 (talk) 14:11, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

..."but dont leave it like he is Serb because he isn't." ... yes right... and all you provide is an alleged thing from 1977 from a Croatian TV channel. To see its fake and Croatian made, we can just focus on the insistence Tesla allegedly said his both sides of family come from "Croatian nobleman"... Tesla would have neved expressed himself as such even if truth. The complex of noblemans and nobility is something so Croatian and not Tesla´s. If that diary even exists its such a clear forgery. This section can be erased. FkpCascais (talk) 14:44, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

@Gogi2323:  Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. Vanjagenije (talk) 18:30, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

@Gogi2323: Tesla's nationality is a sensitive subject which has been argued about for 11 years on this page. I suggest you read over the 9 archives listed at the top of the page. Even if your source ("Tesla's secret diary") was established as legitimate, it would not qualify on Wikipedia as a reliable source for Tesla's nationality. A person's own statement is not a reliable source on his nationality; many people self-identify with a nationality which is not their actual nationality. The only WP:reliable sources are trustworthy writings on Tesla, such as biographies. --Chetvorno^TALK 20:57, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

Tesla never felt the need to peacock himself with claims of nobility (some other people, related to more recent times, do), right the opposite, Tesla whenever expressed himself about his origins he did it very humbly and naturally. One thing is truth for sure; for all humanity, Tesla was much more than a "nobleman". FkpCascais (talk) 01:32, 25 October 2018 (UTC)

@Chetvorno: Wait, one's own opinion doesn't count as towards nationality? Jerry (talk) 22:01, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

No. A person's nationality is not his own choice, it is a legal status determined by national (or in case of conflict, international) law. --Chetvorno^TALK 23:02, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 November 2018

Moved from Talk:Nikola Tesla § Semi-protected edit request on 11 November 2018

per Talk page and 16 June 2015 RfC consensus. --Chetvorno^TALK 20:42, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

Please change "was a Serbian-American inventor" into "was a Croatian-Serbian-American", because his nationality was Croatian and his ethnicity was Serbian. Indeed, it should be "Croatian-born inventor", because, for example, for Albert Einstein Wikipedia says "German-born theoretical physicist", not German-American theoretical physicist" although Einstein get American citizenship after moving to USA, just like Tesla, nor it says "Jewish-American" since Einstein parents were Jews. I understand there is a pressure from some groups to acclaim Tesla as a Serbian-American, however this is not politically, and most importantly, it is not historically correct. Seugushi (talk) 14:17, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

 Not done. Please establish a consensus on the talk page first before making a possibly contentious request, such as this one. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 14:24, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

So strange that the author of this edit request claims to be an university professor and doesn´t know that Tesla was not born in Croatia. Tesla was born in the Military Frontier, a multi-ethnic province of the Austrian empire while Croatia-Slavonia was a province of Hungary. So two completely different territorial units. Tesla also never got to live in Croatia, he studied in Karlovac, at time also part of Military Frontier, then moved to Budapest, Graz, etc. The fact that the place Tesla was born nowadays belongs to Croatia is irrelevant for Tesla´s life. But unfortunatelly there seems to exist major uncknolledge of this facts in Croatia. FkpCascais (talk) 15:41, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

Actually Militaty Frontier was a part of Croatia at the time Tesla was born there. The source for that is listed in this thread [5]Bilseric (talk) 19:35, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

@Seugushi: This is a sensitive issue which has been debated for 11 years here. The issue got so contentious that all discussions of Tesla's nationality were moved to this separate page. The current wording was adopted in an RfC 5 July 2014 and is supported by reliable sources. You can look at the RfC and read the 10 archives of discussion on this subject listed at the top of the page to see where the current wording came from. --Chetvorno^TALK 20:56, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

@Chetvorno: I was reading this rfc , and It's a total mess. Anyways, it was so long time ago that new sources have appeared. The source I listed yesterday was not available back then, and it is the most credible one. I'm sorry to say, but we can no longer use this RFC as a reference because it goes against newer sources.Bilseric (talk) 17:52, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

I can't read Croatian, but even if it supports your position a single source is not going to make a difference. There are quite a few other sources that say that at the time Tesla was born, 1856, this area was a possession of the Austrian Empire called the Military Frontier. The current wording says Tesla was born in the Austrian Empire in "present day Croatia" and I support that wording as accurate and in accord with sources like Tesla biographies (I am an American named Chris Burks and I have no background or connection to either Serbia or Croatia and no opinion on this issue). This issue has been debated continuously for 11 years and there are many editors that support the current wording. --Chetvorno^TALK 20:11, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

"Actually Militaty Frontier was a part of Croatia..." ... dear Lord, save us from such missconceptions please. I will repeat for one last time. Austrian Empire created a separate provice named Military Frontier. It was under direct Aurstrian rule. Croatia-Slavonia was a differente province within same empire, but under Hungarian rule (Hungary had special status within Austrian empire, and included rule over Croatia-Slavonia). So, besides being two totally opposite provinces within Austrian Empire (later renamed Austro-Hungary), each was rules by a different ruler (C-S by Hungary while MF by Austria). The Military Frontier was created by parts of other provinces in what was an internal rearangement of the Habsburg empire. Since it was on the border with the Ottoman Empire and wars were often waged, the area was scarselly populated, so Austrians incentivated the colonisation of the province mostly by Serb and Vlach population which was escaping Ottoman oppersion. So Military Frontier ended up being a multi-ethnic province with Croats and Serbs being majority. It was divided internally into several sections, one of them named "Croatian Military Frontier". But the adjective "Croatian" was merelly geographic, all rule in it was Austrian, and even German was imposed as primary language. Croatian-Slavonian deputies spend decades protesting in Budapest parliament claiming parts of territory of the Military Frontier, but was never given to Croatia-Slavonia during Tesla time he spend there. If it was Croatian why was then the primary agenda of Croatian-Slavonian deputies in Budapest parliament to give them rule over parts of the MF? Because obviously it was NOT Croatian! So, at time Tesla was born and raised there (Smiljan and Karlovac), it was part of Austrian Empire, province Military Frontier. Croatia-Slavonia was a different province which had no rule over the places Tesla was born and lived in. So saying Tesla is "Croatian-born" would imply he was born in Croatia-Slavonia, which is absolutelly incorrect. FkpCascais (talk) 20:37, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

If you didn't read the source, it gives a clear definition of Croatia, Slavonia and MF. It states that MF, Croatia and Slavonia constitute a single land with with disaggregated provincial and military administration and representation. We really don't need yet another opinion after 10 years. If you have a source you are free to post it. If you didn't notice, there's another source in that thread. It's a quote from Tesla : "I was born in Croatia". We can leave the readers to interpret that primary source in the light of the references secondary one. Bilseric (talk) 22:52, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

I didn´t commented the source because it was already presented in the past, and you seem to missunderstand what it really means and is. The source is the transcript of the demands of the Croatian-Slavonian sabor (parliament) to the Hungarians. However, you (again) fail to understand that one thing are demands, another the reality. You need a source saying those demands were adopted. Croatian-Slavonian parliament was well known within A-H politics for its continuos demands, but unfortunatelly for them, Austria and Hungary had little regard for them, and usually just voted them down and kept the situation regarding C-S as pleased to them. Do you understand this? FkpCascais (talk) 01:51, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

"After many pleas from Jelecic, in 1850 the King's proclamation, which was signed by all 8 Austrian ministers, was finally announced...For Military Frontier, the King decided that it will remain within its present territory. However, it will with, Croatia and Slavonia, constitute a single land with disaggregated provincial and military administration, and representation." Bilseric (talk) 09:08, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

I also have nothing against the present wording. It is accurate and according to sources if interpreted without bias. I'm pretty satisfied, however I have remarks about how some editors are trying to make others misinterpret it. From that aspect, I can't agree with the present wording. They would want other editors to read that wording as Fkp explained in the above post. This is clearly against the source I posted. I have an opinion that this source would indeed make a difference since it has a direct reference, which no other source has. It seems to me that the present wording, although correct and no problematic to unbiased reader was put into the article for the wrong reasons, to satisfy a biased opinion of a few editors. There's a simple way to solve the problem and to keep the article in the present state. Let all those who have pushed the present wording agree about this 2 facts. 1. Accept the source I posted. 2. Agree that Tesla was born in Croatian Military Frontier. I guarantee you that this won't happen. Although correct that he was born in Croatian Militaty Frontier, they would rather want to leave "Croatian" out and make misinterpretations like Fkp. Of course that this is dragging on for a decade. Bilseric (talk) 22:38, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

@Chetvorno:, I'm sorry, but could you give a yes or no answer to the following question which is unrelated to Tesla, but a pure historical question? Was Smiljan a part of Croatian Military Frontier in 1856? Bilseric (talk) 23:08, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

The province was named Military Frontier. It was divided internally into several sections, named geographically, which helped better Austrian military organisation in the area. Croatian Military Frontier was one of the subdivisions of the province, and indeed, Tesla was born in that subdivision. However, you, and several others, want to missuse this in order to imply Tesla was born in Croatia, or at Croatian-controlled territory, which was not the case. Biographies such as this one mention the city and country a person was born in, and, in cases of large complex countries such as Austrian empire was, a province may be added in between. Your proposal of replacing the name of the province by the name of the section of the province just to accentuate the missconceptions that Tesla is Croatian, is unacceptable. FkpCascais (talk) 02:24, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

@FkpCascais: @Bilseric: I am ashamed of both of you. As Wikipedia editors we are supposed to be better than this. We have the opportunity to contribute to the largest encyclopedia that has ever existed, the 5th most popular site on the Web, and the most comprehensive information source on the planet. And all you two seem to care about is WP:PUSHing your narrow national interest (see WP:ADVOCACY, WP:SPA), and continuing a conflict that has gone on for centuries. And its all about a few words! Wikipedia editors must have a neutral point of view (WP:NPOV) and not let personal or political feelings bias their editing. I am a US citizen and I love my country too, but I leave that behind when I edit Wikipedia. In fact, I know the American and Western point of view is overrepresented on Wikipedia, and I try to be sensitive to that and write articles from a multicultural, world perspective (I'm not saying I succeed). --Chetvorno^TALK 08:39, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

By the way, I am a folkdancer, and my favorite dances are from the Balkan region. I hope to visit your countries when I have the money. The complicated ethnic history of Serbia and Croatia have given birth to the most interesting, challenging, intricate, and beautiful dances in the world! I love them! The nationalism - not so much. --Chetvorno^TALK 08:39, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

What's wrong with posting a source which is giving an answer to this 10 yr old debate? I have nothing against the present wording as long as it us interpreted according to this source. Bilseric (talk) 09:08, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

If no one has any valid objections, I'll be adding this source as a reference to the article, to give a context to the construct "now in Croatia". Bilseric (talk) 19:06, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

That source was already present in previous discussions, and consensus was clear. FkpCascais (talk) 20:07, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

This source doesn't go against the consensus. I won't change the text of the article. However, a proper context has to be given. Bilseric (talk) 22:21, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

I oppose the addition of Bilseric's source, as the existing sources are perfectly adequate to support the text. The source seems to be a Croatian Wiki article. Wikis are not WP:reliable sources for Wikipedia articles. --Chetvorno^TALK 00:16, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

I also oppose Bilseric's recently reverted deletion of sources in the article. Bilseric, you need to get consensus on this page for changes to the portions of the article relating to Tesla's nationality or ethnicity. --Chetvorno^TALK 00:32, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

It seems that we need a RfC to discuss this new source. I'll open it and invite everyone who participated in the past discussions. If the present sources were adequate we wouldn't have this thread and numerous of discussions. I own a full book as a reference, and the wiki article is just for your convenience.

Regarding the sources that I deleted, I may have done it in a clumsy way , but I will restore the consensus. Someone has added those sources againt the present consensus. The persons who added those sources are the ones who should seek a consensus, not me. Bilseric (talk) 15:21, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

May I ask , why are you not restoring the consensus, but are opposing it? Bilseric (talk) 15:32, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

That source was already presented. Its a primary source. We need secundary souces. The source is the text from provincial Croatian-Slavonian parliament (Sabor) which transcripts Croatian demands to Austrian and Hungarian authotities. Croat parliament made a demand for the provinces of Croatia, Slavonia and Military Frontier to constitute a "single land". Eight Austrian ministers signed a document which says "everything will remain as it is". Its a typical political move, Croatian deputies could say to their people "they signed!" while the Austrian ministers returned to Vienna bringing news to the Emperor that the text says that eveything would remain as it is. To see how much Austrians disregarded the text its enough to see that they didn´t even insisted in specifiying what parts of the Military Frontier were to be that "Croatian single land". The text says "Military Frontier" but not even the wildest Croatian nationalist demanded parts of central Romania (to where Military Frontier streched to) to be Croatian. It all stayed part of Military Frontier directly ruled by Austria and was not incorporated to Croatia-Slavonia for more then 30 years despite Croatian demands.

All in all, secundary sources say Military Frontier existed as Austian administrative unit until 1881 (so it was not given to Croatia in 1850 as Croat parliementarians demanded in the source you presented), and we know from Tesla´s biographies that he receved a Military Frontier scholarship (not Croatian-Slavonian), meaning he was under Military Frontier administration, and that at time he studied in Karlovac (also within MF and not C-S) the main language was German, not Croatian as it was in Croatia.

So, you totally distoring the historical accuracies by waving a primary source with interpretations you yourself make but that secudary sources indicate otherwise, and equally distorting the past consesus made in long discussions here claiming it says the opposite of what it says (as if people can´t go there and see them) is actually offensive, cause editors here are not that dumb, you know? FkpCascais (talk) 18:48, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

I'm really not discussing with you the things that are obvious. This is a secondary source, which clearly defines what military frontier is after the king's proclamation in 1850. If you can't distinguish primary from secondary source, I can't help you. I'm sure others more objective editors will. It was never discussed, thus it has the merits to change the consensus, although it does not change the consensus, it goes along with it. Your interpretations here are irrelevant. I spent weeks reading posts like this. If you have any source to disprove this one, you are free to present it. Since this secondary source is directly referencing a primary source, the king's proclamation, it's obvious that there will not be a source which can disprove this one. The only way to disprove this source would be to have another secondary source which references subsequent primary source that this source omits to mention. This of course is unrealistic. If you were so worried about historical accuracies , you would have already corrected the edits that were done against the standing consensus, introducing Serbian Orthodix Curch to 19th century, sneaky through cherry picked references. This article lacks objective editors. I'm sure that you'll find 10 more reasons not to use this source, but you have no problems with Serbian Orthodox Church in the 19th listed in cherry picked references that is done against a standing consensus. I won't waste my time in discussions with people who are so obviously pushing their POV , even against a standing consensus. Bilseric (talk) 23:16, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

The Habsburg rulers menaged to free most of Croatia from the Turks by 1699. The Treaty of Carlowitz, signed in that year, acknolledged this. The newly freeded areas of Croatia regained domestic autonomy, including their own Diet, or legislature. However, the Habsburg rulers continued to exercise direct control over the area of the "Military Frontier" because of its strategic significance. The separate military governament for the "Military Frontier" was not finally abolished until 1881. The tradition of the frontier remained long after 1881. (Nordic, Central, and Southeastern Europe 2015-2016, by Wayne C. Thompson, page 432). So, will you stop missinforming how I don´t have sources? Will you? FkpCascais (talk) 23:22, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

This is exactly what the source I printed out says. "A single land with disaggregated provincial and military administration, and representation". I'll try to find some time this weekend to open a rfc, because this is going nowhere. You have no valid reason to object this source. How can you not understand that this source I pointed out is directly referencing the King's proclamation and is not mentioning that this proclamation was reverted. A better source can't be found. I seriously doubt that there was another proclamation in between 1850 and Tesla's birthday that this source wouldn't mention. Bilseric (talk) 14:23, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

OK, you seem not to understand what is written, or you missunderstand it on purpose. The source says Military Frontier was a separate administrative unit until 1881. Completelly separated from the province of Croatia-Slavonia. Exactly the opposite of what you pretend. FkpCascais (talk) 15:58, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

Your source does not say 'completely separated'. That is a claim made by you. Your source says 'The separate military government'. This is exactly what my source says 'disaggregated provincial and military administration'. You are on purpose and without any source trying to ignore 'a single land' from the definition provided by the 1st source. Bilseric (talk) 16:27, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

All secundary sources confirm there was no "single land" that puts Military Frontier and Croatia-Slavonia into one administrative unit. Croats wanted parts of Military Frontier to be given to Croatian administration, but that didn´t happened all the way until 1881, when Tesla alredy left and emigrated. So Tesla never got to live in Croatia-Slavonia or Croatia of any kind, much less was born into any sort of. Military Frontier was an independent administrative unit until 1881, all secundary sources confirm it, and your one single source (Wikisource btw) talking about some alleged "single land" never happened prior 1881. FkpCascais (talk) 16:42, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

So what is that you really want after all? FkpCascais (talk) 16:47, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

And you will be able to present those sources in the RFC. Bilseric (talk) 16:51, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

You case is weak because of you total lack of sources and arguments. FkpCascais (talk) 22:47, 11 December 2018 (UTC)