Talk:Croatian Military Frontier

Serbian majority?

By wich census Croatian Krajina had a Serbian majority?:) Ceha

A long time, see Military Border and Krajina. I removed most of your edit because it is clearly not true. Just read the mentioned articles. Maartenvdbent 10:29, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

How do you know it is clearly not true? By other censusis Croats had a majority in Military Border areas. Data about this census are shown only in one book, and I'm not sure it is valid...

Croatian POV?:) Gimme a break;) Try googling the net about that topics, try to read some of it from various sources (disreegard sorces in which Serbia in which ecuator is a line which divides small Serbia on two equal parts (or croatian ones in which Croatia goes to Bospor)) and you could learn something. Have fun;) Ceha 14:15, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

all right, everybody knows that it has a croatian majority NOW, beacause with operation Storm of Gotovina all Serbs fled. But the region had a SERB majority in the past. Read Republic_of_Serbian_Krajina for instance. Maartenvdbent 13:36, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Quote from that article, you shall see that EVEN THE CROATIAN GOVERNMENT ACKNOLEDGES THAT THERE WAS A SERB MAJORITY!!!:

From Egon, Lendl, "Zur politischen Geographie der Österreichischen Miltärgrenze", Der Donauraum, 8/1963., 203.

There was in 1815. around 940.000 people living on all teritory of Military Frontier, among them there where 3/4 of Slavic people and after them major people were Romanians, Hungarians and Germans. Among Slavic population there were 60% of CROATS and 30% of Serbs. Walter9 (talk) 13:09, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

Demographics

By the start of the 1990s and before the war, about two thirds of the Krajina (later UNPA zones North and South- not Western or Eastern Slavonia) population was Serb. These Serbs accounted for about 29% of their total population in the then-SR Croatia. The increase in ethnic tensions caused the demographic proportions to shift markedly even before the fighting broke out.

The official census held in the spring of 1991, just before the war began, is recorded in Republic of Croatia statistics books, but not currently available online. Hence, there are two different sources for pre-war population distribution: the ICTY indictment against Milošević, given in the 1st table below, and the official Croatian data excerpted from the books, presented in the 2nd table.

The allocation of the population in the different parts of the RSK was, according to the ICTY source, as follows:

UNPA Zones North and South	UNPA Sector West	UNPA Sector East	Total
168,437 (67%) Serbs 70,708 (28%) Croats 13,101 (5%) others	14,161 (60%) Serbs 6,864 (29%) Croats 2,577 (11%) others	61,492 (32%) Serbs 90,454 (47%) Croats 40,217 (21%) others	244,090 (52.15%) Serbs 168,026 (35.9%) Croats 55,895 (11.94%) others
(Source: ICTY)

However, the cited figures differ from those published in official Croatian census, which gives the following data:

UNPA Zones North and South	UNPA Sector West	UNPA Sector East	Total
169,906 (66.7%) Serbs 69,646 (28%) Croats 13,183 (5.5%) others	35,206 (35.4%) Serbs 43,063 (43.3%) Croats 21,183 (21.3%) others	57,208 (30.4%) Serbs 92,398 (49.1%) Croats 35,578 (20.5%) others	258,320 (48.16%) Serbs 205,107 (38.24%) Croats 72,944 (13.6%) others

Both calculations does not include "rose zones" (zones outside UNPA, but inside RSK). These zones are usually with much bigger percentage of Serbs than UNPA zones. Examples of rose zones include Medak, Vrlika, Teslingrad, Vrhovine, and Plaski. The largest discrepancy is in the UNPA Sector West, which might refer to the fact that this zone originally included large patches of western Slavonia (areas around Grubišno Polje, Daruvar, Pakrac and the western slopes of Papuk), but these weren't controlled by the RSK in the later stages of the war.

Your comment is not valid. This article is about former Croatian Military Frontier and not about teritories of former parastate RSK. Walter9 (talk) 13:12, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

Further discussion

Territories which where known as Croatian Krajina (borderland) were diferent from the territories which were part of serbian selfproclaimed parastate in 1991. Most of UNPA Zones West and East were territories of historical kingdom of Slavonia, and only parts of UNPA Zones North and South(without Dalmatian Zagora and towns of Knin,Benkovac Obrovac and Drniš) were parts of Croatian Krajina (borderland). Croatian Krajina also included all of Lika with towns Otočac, Ogulin, Gospić, and Senj which had large Croatian majorities and which where more numerous than vilagies for wich you given data. Also according to [1] part of Croatian Krajina(borderland) where the counties of Bjelovar, Čazma itd. which also had overall Croatian majority (and which where even more populus then those previously mentioned). If you would sumirize all of the counites I doubt that percentage of persons of Serbian nationality would be more of 25% by census of 1991. I think that historicly their percentage was around 30% in that area.

As for my qoute "From history of date page, you've given to me "The source "www.srpskapolitika.com" is a serbian nationalist website"" did you read the talk page on Republic of Serbian Krajina ? Authors of that page are there accused that they have taken data from "www.srpskapolitika.com". My qoutation is from talk page on Republic of Serbian Krajina.

My point with the words "everbody knows" and similar is that they are POV and that should not been used as such. If you say something, you should provide data for that (and from some credible sources). As I said before, territories of Croatian Krajina and selfproclaimed RSK are very different. Half of selfproclaimed RSK were never part of Croatian krajina (they were part of Kingdom of Slavonia, and territories in Dalmatian Zagora were part of Kingdom of Dalmatia) and the rest was fused with territories with less then 20% of Serbian population.

Also, please read about [2]

Ceha 00:06, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

I read about Greater Serbia, but I don't see what that has to do with the fact that the Croatian Krajina had a Serb majority. What so you want to say? That all Serbs are nationalists who want to proclaim a Greater Serbian state? Every country has its stupid nationalists, Serbia and Croatia have them too.

I read the talk page of Republic of Serbian Krajina but I couldn't find that sentence that says that the figures are from srpskapolitika.com. I only found one remark (from 2004) that an image that was used originated from that site. As far as I know, that image is already deleted from that article.

There are no NPOV disputes for Republic of Serbian Krajina, so I don't see any reason to believe that it contains Serbian nationalist POV.

Just a reminder: that NPOV restriction on wikipedia doesn't apply for the talk pages. Talk pages are there to resolve POV, so talk pages may contain POV. Furthermore, I never said "everybody knows", please tell me where I did... I did say "clearly", yes. I thought it was clear (because I read articles like Krajina and Republic of Serbian Krajina) that the Croatian Krajina had a Serb majority. Maybe that was a bit premature.

I seriously doubt that the whole (historical) Krajina doesn't have a Serb majority. Also the Republic of Serbian Krajina article reads "By the start of the 1990s and before the war, about two thirds of the Krajina (later UNPA zones North and South- not Western or Eastern Slavonia) population was Serb".

Finally, you said to me that one should give credible date (sources) before making a remark. That also counts for you. You changed this article to the version it now reads; that the Croatian Krajina had a Croatian majority (this is correct, earlier versions with no edit of mine said that the Croatian Krajina had a Serb majority, you were the first one to change it). Now YOU ALSO have to give some sources. I didn't find any sources saying that's true. Maartenvdbent 12:09, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

I told you to read article about Greater Serbia, to warn you about their propaganda. You should be more careful when you look for sources.

As for that page it has a lot of errors;

• 1) "It was theoretically possible that the Serbian Krajina could have seceded from Croatia to remain part of a Yugoslavia minus Croatia and Slovenia"
• 2)As for census I'm not certain that is correct (there is no evidence that the census given in there is census of 1991, and I at home have only census by municipalities, but in selfproclaimed RSK there were municipalities and parts of other municipalities).
• 3)Sentence qouting that pink(rose) zones had the Serbian majority is also false. I don't have map, and I can not be hundred percent sure about that issue, but I know that area around Grubišno polje(you can see it in the census I've given to you) was part of pink zone and had a Croatian majority. That is one example. You can read something about that on [3] and [4] .

Here is one qoute; "«Pink zones» were established adjacent to these areas. These are zones that do not fall within UNPROFOR's jurisdiction, but that contain a majority Serb population or where Serbs constituted a large minority. In July 1992, the «parties agreed to permit the establishment of a Joint Commission that would oversee the establishment of Croatian authority in these regions. Steven Woehrel & Julie Kim, Croatia: Background and Current Issues, Congressional Research Service Report 4-5 (3 December 1992)."

For more of information try to google.

NPOV worning was not malicious. I only warned you that you should be open-minded, and not have prejudices in that article. You can have your POV, nowbody denies you that...

That qoute ("By the start of the 1990s and before the war, about two thirds of the Krajina (later UNPA zones North and South- not Western or Eastern Slavonia) population was Serb".) is not about historical territory of Croatian Krajina but self proclaimed RSK. As I said to you, that are pretty much different territories (parts of Slavonia and Dalmatia (Knin is Dalmatian town) which were claimed by RSK where never part of Croatian Krajina, and more than half of original territory of Croatian Krajina was never ocupied by RSK. Serbs were prewar majority in 10 municipalities (Knin, Obrovac, Gračac, Benkovac, Korenica, Vojnić, Vrginmost(Gvozd), Glina, Dvor and Hrvatska Kostajnica), in 3 municipalities (Drniš, Slunj and Petrinja) non Serbian population (which was expeled) had majority, and Sectors South and North also had parts of 10 more municipalities (Sinj, Šibenik, Biograd, Zadar, Gospić, Otočac, Ogulin, Duga Resa, Karlovac and Sisak) which were also more populus and had Croatian majority.

As for sources, I've given you information from the census of 1991. Enjoy:)

Ceha 23:37, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Life after death

Croatian Krajina is an entity that existed between 16th and 19th century. It was abolished in 1882, and after this year IT SIMPLY DOES NOT EXIST. So, if you people want to write about 1991 events, please try to find some other article for that, because this is an entity that did not existed in 1991. PANONIAN (talk) 16:56, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Incorrect, the resolutions of 8 June 1871 "signalled the actual start of the dissolution of the Craotian-Slavonian Military Border." It was only finally abolished in 1881. [ See Rothenberg, G., The Military Border in Croatia, 1740-1881 (Chicago: U.C.P, 1966) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.111.31.74 (talk) 03:00, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Ceha

"don't see why historical context should be deleted"

Because:

• 1. Banska Hrvatska is not name used for Banija region. Banska Hrvatska was a name used for civil Croatia (outside of the frontier) that was ruled by a ban.
• 2. I do not think that this region was called Serbian Krajina between 16th and 19th century, this is new name introduced during 1990s, when this region politicaly did not existed.
• 3. The subsequent part of the paragraph was obviously added to make a balance with the part that claim that it was called Serbian Krajina (which is itself wrong), and without the first part, the second part do not have meaning. If you want, you can explain history of the Frontier in this section, but something that really have connection with 16th-19th century period. PANONIAN (talk) 22:44, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

It is complete lie to call Vojna krajina "croatian" Krajina.Serbs had privilages in militaly zone,not croats.Serbs had there majority not croats.Whan it existed it was not part of croatia but was directly ruled by Wien.So change the title please 'cuz it is false--Vule91 (talk) 16:40, 12 February 2008 (UTC).

It is impossible to change anyything just according to your WISHES. Please, stick to the facts. Even in Austrian documents that teritory is officialy known as CROATIAN MILITARY FRONTIER or Kroatische Militärgrenze. It's not anyone's problem you dislike history facts. Walter9 (talk) 12:54, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

Requesting a move to Croatian Military Frontier

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was no consensus -- Aervanath (talk) 14:49, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

---

• This is English Wikipedia and we should use the most appropriate term in the English language. -- Imbris (talk) 23:24, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree. Also, this would be consistent with the main article Military Frontier. (Interestingly, for Britannica it's Vojna Krajina - that's Military Frontier in Croatian, of course.) GregorB (talk) 08:07, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

• To most people who watched the television news here in England during the crisis as the old Yugoslavia broke up, the Krajina is a region of Croatia where Serbs lived, and not a frontier. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 11:11, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment: The article is not about the former selfproclaimed RSK also the article is clearly on the historical Croatian Military Frontier. In the Republic of Croatia (throught its history, including the Socialist Republic of Croatia) there has never been a region named Krajina. It is a fabrication because Lika and Kordun was considered somewhat closer than Banovina (Banija) and Kordun. Banija was historicaly and today more economicaly connected with Zagreb. There had not ever been a region named Krajina in Croatia, there have always been Lika (including Krbava and Pounje), Kordun and Banovina (Banija). -- Imbris (talk) 22:29, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Croatian Military Frontier?

This is a plain invention of some Wikipedia users. Search through serious books of the history of Austria and Hungary. You will not ever find anything called Croatian Military Frontier. That territory, even back to the Christ's times was ruled by different people who weren't Croats or subject of any Croatian state.--96.231.71.176 (talk) 00:17, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

Please, don't let your statements being influenced by your emotions. Stick to historical records! According to historical documents the area comprising former Croatian Military Frontier used to be a part of medieval Croatia, thus later name of frontier. That is the verifiable fact and one who wishes to improve Wikipedia projects should know. Walter9 (talk) 13:20, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

Military Frontier and Croatian Military Frontier

This article and the accompanying map currently conflate the Military Frontier and the Croatian Military Frontier (the later being part of the Military Frontier). To cite a period source available on Google Books (The Penny Cyclopædia of the Society for the Diffusion of Useful Knowledge, 1839, p. 214): "MILITARY FRONTIER ... The whole of this tract is divided into — 1, the Western or Croatian Military Frontier; 2, the Slavonian Military Frontier; 3, the Hungarian or Banat Military Frontier; 4, the Transylvanian Military Frontier." Exactly the same division is found in Europe, Past and Present: A Comprehensive Manual of European Geography and History (1850, p. 533). The article called Military Frontier covers all of these and this article should cover only the Croatian Military Frontier. Doremo (talk) 04:44, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes, Croatian Miltary Frontier was just one of the sections of the Miltary Frontier. What part of the article you find that needs fixing? FkpCascais (talk) 13:35, 19 February 2018 (UTC)