Talk:Neon lamp

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history

What this page needs desperately is to tell the history of neon light signs (foremostly in America, secondly in Europe, and then in the rest of the world).

The point being, the astute viewer sees a movie, and he wants to know what time the movie depicts.

The page for neon says neon wasn't discovered until 1898, but this page says neon lamps were on display at the 1893 world fair. WTF?

I think you have a point, WTF. Tesla's lamp must have been some other kind. Other sources say a carbon button low-pressure discharge lamp. --Heron 21:48, 22 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

neon consumption of current

How much electricity would a small, typical neon sign use compared to a 90 watt incadescent bulb??

Neon lamps aren't especially efficient (at producing light -- clarification added). Here're some references:

http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/everything-neon/10053-0.pdf (Describing transformers for large signs running 30 and 60 mA at 15KV so 450 and 900 VA (roughly, watts).)

By comparison, a simple "Open" sign (with the letters and a light-up frame) may draw just 75 Watts or so.

http://store.everything-neon.com/neopsidst.html

Atlant 00:23, 21 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

ON the contrary, neon lamps are 100% efficient. What they dont give out in light, they give out in heat! 100% total. 8-))--Light current 02:39, 21 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Depends on the season. — Omegatron 03:21, 21 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ya' know, together, we three might make a pretty good comedy team.

Atlant 12:41, 21 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Luminous efficacy of course is a different question--Light current 13:24, 21 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Merge discussion

Oppose - Someone has nominated a merger with neon sign - I don't think that's appropriate, there's plenty to be written about both topics and though there's obvious commonalities (along with fluorescent lamp in the history, each can be a stand-alone article. --Wtshymanski (talk) 20:11, 10 October 2008 (UTC) Oppose per Wtshymanski (talk · contribs). 38.116.202.43 (talk) 15:06, 20 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Besides the neon lamp that the one article mentions is not the same as the "Neon Sign"

He is the difference. The gas neon was discovered in 1898. The idea of putting a gas (any gas, doesn't matter which gas) in a tube to create a light has been around since 1655. The first official "Neon Sign" was displayed in 1910 and patented in 1915.* The only reason that they are called "Neon Signs" is because the first gas used was Neon. Now they use all different gases, which is what gives them the different colors.

Reference: http://inventors.about.com/od/qstartinventions/a/neon.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.116.172.51 (talk) 11:06, 15 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. I came to this page looking for information on specifically these types of lamps, for use as an overvoltage indicator in a highvoltage circuit. This page was exactly what I was looking for, and even if it's carried over in it's entirety, it will be that much harder to find the relevant information among everything else. I'm sure I'm not the only person who scans Wikipedia for practical information before going through the slog of primary sources. I feel the aesthetic gains of having one page should take a backseat to the practical value of having the pages be separate. The granularity, that you can find *precisely* what you're looking for, is generally what I like best about Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.59.151.244 (talk) 15:31, 22 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. • Sbmeirow • Talk • 21:14, 1 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Still in use?

I'm told that neon lamps are still used in some consumer devices (e.g. our humidifier) and glowing electrical wall switches. Is this true? I always assumed these were LEDs. -- Beland (talk) 17:40, 18 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

At least here in the UK neons are very widely used as indicators in power strips and wiring accessories. The big advantages of neons over LEDs in such applications are that thier higher operating voltage means you waste far less power in the series resistor and you don't have to worry about reverse breakdown. Plugwash (talk) 20:28, 7 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I actually came to the discussion page to ask about that very thing, as I see no mention of it - would it be out of line to add a paragraph of my own, even though it would essentially be OR? (I have no idea how to reference something like that!) ... Just in my house I have a number of items that appear to have a small neon of some kind in them, as a "live circuit" indicator; I can count at least two extension cables (power strips), the main power switch for the cooker (kitchen stove, which lives on a separate 30A (230V) circuit to everything else), and a small thermostat-controlled fan-heater (the lamp remains on as a warning telltale whenever the device is turned on, regardless of whether the fan and heating elements are on-line via the 'stat), and I see them in use in other places for a similar purpose, particularly in power strips (and in at least one case also, a mains-outlet checking "pen"). Notably, all of these are AC applications, at >200v, and some of them show a very noticable flicker which thanks to this article I now know is the glow switching from anode to cathode and back! (Maybe those which don't flicker have some kind of simple diode or rectifier attached?) ... Given their ubiquity, low light output/small size, and tendency to be left running to very long periods, one assumes they have minimal power drain, definitely sub-0.5w? No power meter I've ever attached such a power strip to has ever registered a reading, but they all only show integer watt figures. And given their supposed very long lifetime, it makes me wonder just how old a certain workplace office powerstrip is... very grimy, chunky, with an old style plug and a neon that's long since burnt out... 77.102.101.220 (talk) 20:17, 19 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In the US, I still see them very frequently as power lights on power strips and as indicator lights on appliances that operate directly from mains AC. I guess that the circuit is simpler for running a neon glow indicator directly from line voltage than an LED. I don't know the typical power consumption offhand, but it definitely isn't much.

I kind of get the impression that the glow indicators (at least some of them) don't actually last all that long, though. Almost every power strip I've seen has its indicator go dim and flickering after just a couple of years or so. A green “neon” indicator on our chest freezer is already on its way out after only about 2–3 years. Then again, these indicators run continuously all the time, so that's still 17,000–25,000 hours, which doesn't sound too bad. The hours just add up quickly under 24/7 operation, I guess. ::Travis Evans (talk) 11:00, 16 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The current through the neon light in a power strip is about 1 mA, corresponding to 0.2 W at 230 Volt. Theoretically, an additional environmental effect is that some owners replace a power strip sooner because its neon lamp dies. Ceinturion (talk) 15:30, 16 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Three-element neon bulb as dual indicator

I suggest something like the following be added to the article, after mention of the NE-77 as a circuit component:

"Also, three-element neon bulbs are sometimes used to indicate that either of two sub-circuits are on. For example, toasting or baking in a toaster oven; or, either side of a dual-control electric blanket. Here, the bulb acts as a compact alternative to two separate bulbs."

Reason: Several places on the internet mention the NE-77 as a circuit component, but I'm unaware of any mention of this dual-indicator use. Source 2 shows at least some interest and confusion about these devices.

Source 1: The Black & Decker toaster oven model TRO 355-TY5 uses this design. (I found upon reverse engineering.) The middle electrode is common; the electrode on one side is powered by the toast circuit; the other electrode by the bake circuit.

Source 2: Someone said they dissected a dead electric blanket and found a 3-element bulb "inside the power connector box at the foot of the blanket", and asked what it is for, 4 years ago, at this URL: sci.tech-archive.net/Archive/sci.electronics.basics/2005-04/msg00086.html (title: three element "neon bulb" in Electric Blanket...what's it do?)

19VABP22 (talk) 16:06, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Theres photos of Tesla/Mark Twain and Gas lamps

Theres photos of Nikola Tesla (1856-1943) and also his freind Mark Twain (Samuel Clemens) the author taken by the light of wirelessly lit (From energy from a Tesla coil) Tesla should be given more some credit min article for his Gas Lamps! Thanks!IMPVictorianus (talk) 20:53, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Neon lamps and neon lighting

There are several sentences in the article that deal with neon tube lighting such as used in large signs. I think this article is about miniature neon lamps, which are a distinct technology. I've revised the history section to try to clarify this. I'm inclined to revise the article to remove some of the tube lighting discussion, including the nice photo of a neon sign. Leave a comment here if you have a different view. Easchiff (talk) 05:42, 21 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Efficacies

Neon efficacies Tabby (talk) 21:35, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The efficacy for "white" "neon" looks doubtful to me; is there a non-sales-site that replicates these values? --Wtshymanski (talk) 13:49, 9 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Further, I think the link for this is now dead: Thielen, Marcus (2006-02-10). "LED or Neon". Retrieved 2008-12-30.Testem (talk) 14:40, 19 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Why the neon lamp is a negative resistor and how it behaves when voltage driven

Wondering... Glrx, I wonder why you have removed any connection between the neon lamp and the negative resistance phenomenon. I wonder also why nobody has reacted to your edits; it is quite indicative for wikipedians inhabiting this space... I am not sure if I have said it in the best way in my last edits so I will try to explain it in more details here. Actually, I have not written these intuitive explanations for you (and your likes) since, as I can remember from all our discussions between us, you can't understand them... or you don't want to understand them... or you don't see much point in such viewpoint... what is practically the same... Instead, I have written these colorful explanations for curious readers with open minds that may visit this page looking for the truth behind these odd devices...

A neon lamp is a negative resistor. People understand concrete things with the help of more general concepts. So it is worth to show that a neon lamp is a typical negative resistance element; it is only one possible negative resistance implementation; simply, it is a negative resistor. Should I convince you of this fact? Search in Google or just look at the IV curve in the AB section and you will see the negative slope... The use of the negative resistance viewpoint is that once seen the negative resistance phenomenon in the bare neon lamp, our readers will see it in all other similar electronic devices (e.g., thyristors); the general phenomenon makes a connection between them that helps understanding.

A neon lamp is a negative differential resistor. Once shown the neon lamp is a negative resistor, we would like to determine what kind of negative resistor it is. First, we have to say that it is a negative differential resistor (NDR) since it changes its instant resistance (not voltage) in the negative resistance region.

A neon lamp is an S-shaped negative differential resistor. Then, we have to specify what kind of NDR it is because there are two kinds of negative resistors depending on their behavior in the negative resistance region. The neon lamp decreases its instant resistance when the input quantity increases so that the IV curve folds up counterclockwise and the total IV curve gets the shape of something similar to the letter "S"; thus the name "S-shaped IV curve".

A voltage driven neon lamp is an S-shaped NDR acting as a bistable element. Let's now see how the neon lamp behaves in the negative resistance region when driven by voltage. If the neon lamp had an N-shaped IV curve (see the figure on the left) and we increase the input voltage up to point A (in the middle of the negative resistance region), it would begin changing its instant resistance in the right direction (increasing) and finally it would reach the equilibrium point A. But the neon lamp has an S-shaped IV curve (see the figure on the right and the figure in the article showing the neon lamp graph). So, when the input voltage exceeds V_H, it begins changing its instant resistance but in the "wrong" direction (decreasing). Thus it recedes further and further from the equilibrium point "in an avalanche-like manner" (if you prefer, name it "self-accelerating", "self-reinforcing" or just "positive feedback"). Finally, this negative resistor "saturates" and finds out the equilibrium point somewhere on the upper positive resistance part (point C in the figure showing the neon lamp graph). During this transition, the current changes vigorously ("jumps up") but the voltage stays constant. The neon lamp acts as a regenerative bistable element (Schmitt trigger) that switches instantly. Circuit dreamer (talk, contribs, email) 08:14, 15 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I deleted some incorrect, irrelevant, and/or unsourced statements in the article.

Your comments above are unsourced and confused. What reliable source states "A voltage driven neon lamp is an S-shaped NDR acting as a bistable element"? You've been told many times that WP is not the place for WP:OR or WP:SYNTHESIS. What reliable sources discuss your "instant resistance"? The diagrams equate an operating point with a non-physical linear resistance. Your comments are also strangely counterfactual: "If the neon lamp had an N-shaped IV curve...."

Glrx (talk) 23:25, 17 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Glrx, as the assertions below are already evident for everyone, please restore them (I can do it but it is more correctly if you do it as you have removed them).

A neon lamp is a negative resistor - 31,200
A neon lamp is a negative differential resistor - 6,710 results

See also Townsend discharge: "The presence of Townsend discharge and glow discharge breakdown voltages shapes the

V_{A}-I_{A}

characteristic of any gas diode or neon lamp in a way such that it has a negative differential resistance region of the S-type."

A neon lamp is an S-shaped negative differential resistor - 1,710 results
An S-shaped NDR driven by a voltage source acts as a bistable (regenerative) switching element - it is a common truth
Every nonlinear (differential) resistor has an instant (chordal, static, ohmic or name it as you want) resistance at a given point - a common truth (see also the lede of Electrical resistance and conductance)

Circuit dreamer (talk, contribs, email) 09:36, 19 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This conversation would be useful for you:

"...Once lit, a neon lamp has an S-shaped negative resistance characteristic..."

"...current will rapidly increase in an avalanche-like manner..." Circuit dreamer (talk, contribs, email) 09:38, 21 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Circuit dreamer is correct. Numerous sources state that neon bulbs have negative resistance of the current-controlled or "S" type: [1, 2, 3, GE glow lamp manual, p. 2, and when biased correctly can have a bistable characteristic. Digital logic circuits can even be built with them GE glow lamp manual, p. 41-65 --Chetvorno^TALK 01:50, 29 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The negative resistance issue is much more involved; I don't put much stock in the GE lamp manual. A neon lamp is not a time-invariant device in the same sense as a linear resistor or a non-linear semiconductor diode. Mapping a time-variant device into a time-invariant fiction has problems. Would you look at thermal runaway in a Ge transistor as a negative resistance? The ion distribution and the associated fields in a neon lamp vary radically over time. Similarly, the negative resistance in an arc discharge often involves local heating of a solid electrode; the hot spot takes time to develop, and once it develops, it turns the cold cathode into a thermionic emitter rather than a secondary emitter. The Poulsen arc plays some clever games to allow one electrode to get hot while cooling the other electrode. Glrx (talk) 23:39, 4 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The device clearly has negative resistance; the voltage drops as the current increases beyond the breakdown voltage. The device also has hysteresis, which is not mentioned in the article; the IV curve does not follow the same path when the current is decreased after it is conducting as when it is increased before it has broken down. I'm sure the IV curve varies with temperature, but so do many devices. Beyond that I'm not sure what you mean. But both arcs and glow discharges have negative resistance; the proof is that both can be used to make oscillators. All oscillators require negative resistance. --Chetvorno^TALK 06:33, 5 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The article does acknowledge the bulb's negative resistance, so I don't really have a problem with that. I think the Applications section should be divided more clearly between lighting and indicator uses, and switching uses. Most importantly, I think the diagram of the IV curve needs to be replaced with a more accurate one, showing the "normal glow" and "abnormal glow" regions. If I can find one, I will trace it in SVG. Do you know where I can find one? There's one in the GE manual (p.18); if I have to I'll use that, but it doesn't show the hysteresis, and I don't know how accurate it is. --Chetvorno^TALK 06:33, 5 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know what to say here. (I'm also about 5 weeks behind in my WP editing.)

Neon lamps are complicated. They depend on outside radiation to start. There's a lot of technology in a lowly NE-2.

Avalanche has a place in the neon lamp characteristic, but avalanche is a gain mechanism and not a negative resistance. The electron avalanche creates positive ions that have several effects in the lamp. Positive ions crashing onto the cathode may produce secondary electrons. That creates a positive feedback loop; when the loop gain equals one, then there is breakdown.

Hysterisis is evidence of internal state. The positive ion distributions (and fields) are radically different. It takes time to move the positive ions. (If there is hysterisis, is it proper to call the IV characteristics s-shaped? It's not the same s-shape of a tunnel diode.)

The hot spot explanation is a very local phenomenon; it is not about the average temperature of the device. There are more variables to consider than just I and V. The internal variables show positive feedback. That can suggest negative resistance in a quiescent state / final-value view.

I don't think there should be a negative resistance explanation for everything. I can turn a relay into a buzzer (multivibrator), but I don't see negative resistance as an obvious explanation of how that buzzer works. I also don't see negative resistance as an obvious explanation of a delay line multivibrator. I can see negative resistance as an implication of power gain, and power gain is needed for real world oscillators, but that's abstract.

Glrx (talk) 20:13, 18 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I certainly agree that what's going on in the lamp is complicated. But from what I've read I think a lot of the complexity can be encapsulated in the IV curve using concepts of hysteresis and negative resistance, and the negative resistance concept is clearly used in the design of neon lamp circuits.

There are probably some oscillators and closed-loop control systems that cannot be explained by negative resistance (NR), as you say, but most relaxation oscillators can. The tunnel diode has N-type negative resistance, while the neon bulb is supposed to have S-type (V is the independent variable in IV curves). In a relaxation oscillator based on a NR device, the negative resistance segment of the IV curve is unstable, so negative resistance cannot be observed directly. In a relaxation oscillation (limit cycle) the state of the system follows the IV curve, which represents stable states of the NR device, until it reaches the negative resistance section, then "jumps" quickly to the other branch of the IV curve, through unstable states of the device.

N-type (voltage controlled) NR devices like the tunnel diode have hysteresis when driven by current sources, but are stable when driven by voltage sources. So the whole IV curve including the negative resistance region can be graphed; there's no doubt they have NR. S-type (current controlled) devices are likewise supposed to be stable when driven by current sources, but I don't know if this is true for the neon bulb.

Hysteresis is evidence of "state", but in relaxation oscillators that includes the state of the energy storage devices in the external circuit. However, many of the IV curves I've seen for gas discharges show hysteresis in the breakdown region, which would be caused by internal state as you say. Once breakdown has occurred and the voltage has dropped to the maintaining voltage, the ionization and low voltage can be maintained at currents below the current at which breakdown occurred. If I understand it, that's because the high electric field in the cathode fall makes it an efficient producer of ions. But as I say, S-type NRs are supposed to be stable when driven by current sources. Do you know if the neon lamp has hysteresis regardless of the driving resistance? If it is impossible to stabilize the lamp in the breakdown current range at a voltage between the breakdown and maintaining voltage with any external circuit, then I'd agree with you. The bulb acts like your relay example, switching between two ionization states, and maybe "negative resistance" is not a good term. But just because NR cannot be observed in the device with one particular external circuit, does not mean it doesn't have it. --Chetvorno^TALK 08:01, 21 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know where we are headed here.

Neon lamp multivibrators are usually looked at as a state change rather than a negative resistance. A resistor charges a capacitor; the voltage across the capacitor rises; when it rises beyond the breakdown voltage, the lamp starts conducting and discharges the capacitor until the voltage falls below the sustaining voltage. I don't think general sources examine the discharge current; I don't recall seeing any current limiting resistors.

You are confusing hysteresis and operating point. The IV characteristics of a tunnel diode are usually considered to be static; there is no hysteresis in the IV curve. A tunnel diode circuit can have hysteresis: for a typical resistive load line there may be two stable operating points. The IV characteristics of the tunnel diode do not change.

A glow discharge does not have a static IV curve; the IV characteristics change; the IV characteristics are not even clean (there can be games near the breakdown voltage). A lot of other stuff is going on, too.

Glrx (talk) 22:32, 21 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This detailed analysis of the IV curve shows that gas discharges have real negative resistance, not just switching behavior, confirming what many other sources 1, p. 7, 2, 3, 4 say. See p. 12, "F to G". Just above the discontinuous breakdown point you were talking about, in the normal glow region, it says the voltage is a decreasing function of current. The IV curve also shows the hysteresis at breakdown I mentioned (p.9, points D-E-F-F'), as do other curves.

This negative resistance is important for relaxation oscillator operation, because for the circuit to be unstable and oscillate the load line must cross the IV curve in a region of negative resistance; if it intersects it in a region of positive resistance that is a stable operating point. If the lamp just had switching behavior as you maintain, and not NR, after it had turned on it would remain on, in the normal glow region, and take all the current, and the capacitor wouldn't charge up again. --Chetvorno^TALK 06:06, 23 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

For your first ref, the explanation uses a state change first: "After a discontinuous transition from E to F, the plasma enters the ‘normal glow’ region". The negative resistance that author discusses is a slight one during normal glow ("slightly decreasing function of the current") -- it is not the negative resistance that other authors claim. BTW, the ref discusses the possibility of multiple cells in a discharge -- possible other reorganized states. It does not appear to be a peer reviewed publication.

The second ref has only a snippet view; the figure is not visible. Starting with point A makes me wonder if the author claims Townsend avalanche exists throughout the saturation region; there's not enough to tell from the snippet. This author contradicts the first ref by saying the normal glow region has a constant (rather than a falling) slope. The ref does not appear to seriously address the topic.

The third ref is a general reference on display technology. It describes the lamp as a state change device on page 167: the voltage after "breakback" (firing or operating) is lower. The ref later lumps the "breakback" and the negative resistance together: "A consequence of the breakback phenonmenon describe above is that the discharge in this usual normal glow regime exhibits negative resistance". That statement is confused and should be enough to discard the author as an authority. Normal glow is a particular operating condition that does not include the transition that many want to label as a negative resistance. It is not negative resistance that leads to destruction but rather the ability of the discharge to maintain high currents and significant power.

The fourth ref is passing mention. It does not appear interested in the detailed IV characteristics.

Your negative resistance proof is circular. If one assumes negative resistance is important for oscillators, then one must pay attention to negative resistance. Consider a current source instead. The current source must supply more than the maximum Townsend current (+ cap leakage current) in order to reach the breakdown voltage. The current source must supply less than the sustaining current in order to quench the lamp. To make a free running oscillator, I must meet both conditions. You can argue that the current source crosses the negative resistance characteristic, but you can also argue that the trip points must be reached. It does not prove there must be a negative resistance.

Glrx (talk) 19:09, 23 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

AC operation alternating glow

My little pocket camera has a "high speed" video mode that shoots 240 frames/second instead of the usual 30. At this speed it's quite easy to see the electrodes alternating on AC operation (even at 60 Hz). How do I change a .MOV video to something that Wikipedia can accept? --Wtshymanski (talk) 00:50, 17 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Nice idea. Glrx (talk) 01:09, 17 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Convert it to the .GIF format. Some websites are able to do the conversion online. Make sure the frame delay setting is at least 0.06 ms because that is the minimum for some browsers (IE). Ceinturion (talk) 08:09, 17 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Animated .gif seems like the way to go to me also, and I think it's a great idea. Here's a link to one that was made from video: File:MaryPoppinsChimneyDance.gif. If possible, I'd suggest that you include something in your images to indicate the size of the little lamp, such as part of a ruler or scale, or perhaps a sheet of graph paper as the background. Easchiff (talk) 11:13, 17 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Inadequate graph

I agree with the "dubious" tag that the graph of the IV characteristic in the Description section, Doutnavka.svg, is inadequate. Maybe a better graph could be found? --Chetvorno^TALK 23:54, 25 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The old graph is also inadequate because it shows the current dependent on the voltage, while the two primary references (Miller and GE Lamps) use the voltage as a function of currrent, which is sensible, as the device must be operated with limited current anyhow. I did not find primary sources where the old graph is used at all, so I did remove it completely. (Including the long citation from the reference, which refers to a different graph and which I feel inadequate in a caption anyhow.) Rainglasz (talk) 13:24, 31 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The graph shown is very similar, but less complete to a graph shown in "^[1]" I believe that this graph is a sensible way to present the glowlamp characteristics, since it is the voltage you measure across a glowlamp when you vary the value of the series resistor required to limit the lamp current. You can't easily measure this voltage plateau, which spans several orders of magnitude in current, with a simple variable voltage source. In short, to measure this you need to control the current and measure the voltage, not the other way round. Therefore the abscissa is the right place for the current. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.33.118.230 (talk) 20:09, 26 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Handbook of Vacuum Physics, Vol.2, Physical Electronics, A.H. Beck, ed., 1965, Page 5, Pergamon Press

Dependence on light and radiation

I removed the sentence that The striking voltage is reduced by ambient light or radioactivity, immediately before the refernce to Miller, because didn't I find anything like that in the reference. The GE Glow Lamps reference is not quite clear, but it seems that the current at which the nearly vertial section leading to the striking voltage is dependent on the outer light and radioactivity, so that this current is larger if there is radiation. There are dotted variants in the GE book, which I left out for clarity. If anyone finds a reliable source for this, I would be happy to insert it again. Rainglasz (talk) 13:36, 31 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It's a pretty notable effect and I've restored it; shortly I will dig up my book on gas discharges and put in a citation. I have fond memories of opening up realy panels and suddenly seeing the (neon) pilot lights on the relays turn on as room light hit them - then go out again if I turned off the lights. --Wtshymanski (talk) 00:56, 1 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

One of my first electronics projects is (I still have it) a touch switch from Popular Electronics. It uses an NE-83 which, when it starts conducting turns on an SCR. The explanation is that the NE-83 has some radioactive material inside to decrease the strike voltage. I believe that is documented somewhere in the GE data sheets. Gah4 (talk) 20:44, 26 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed addition: "Non-linear circuit element in models of neural-like activity"

Avalanche in a two-dimensional lattice of neon lamps, each one independently supplied and coupled capacitively to its neighbours. For voltages close to the ignition threshold, critical avalanching reminiscent of neural discharged can be generated.^[1]

Neon lamps possess very rich dynamical properties^[2], in particular, because, as the applied voltage changes, the transition between the "on" and "off" phases is at the same time significantly hysteretic and stochastic. Owing to these properties, they have been used as the sole non-linear element in electronic models, or analogues, of neural dynamics, initially by Balthasar van der Pol. In 2016, an elementary network consisting of a two-dimensional lattice of neon lamps, each one biased to a common DC voltage and capacitively-coupled to its neighbors, was investigated. Varying the applied voltage, it was possible to elicit the emergence of ordered, high-rate and disordered, low-rate phases, with a first-order transition between them and critical avalanching, bearing a very close similarity to neural observations of criticality and thus illustrating the generative potential of this simple device, often nowadays relegated to the role of line voltage indicator.^[1] ( Lminati (talk) 15:24, 12 March 2019 (UTC) )[reply]

References

^ ^a ^b Minati L, de Candia A, Scarpetta S. "Critical phenomena at a first-order phase transition in a lattice of glow lamps: Experimental findings and analogy to neural activity"
^ "Dance JN, Cold Cathode Tubes, Iliffe, London, UK, 1968"

Redirect for discussion

I've listed the two redirects Neon tube and Neon tubes (note that the second is a plural), as "redirects for discussion" here: Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2019_November_3#Neon_tubes. This is because they redirect to different things - respectively neon sign and neon lamp. I feel this should be made consistent. Please add your thoughts on the discussion page. Witty lama 22:51, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

NE-83

Anyone know about the NE-83? Gah4 (talk) 22:20, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is not a parts catalog. Look at a neon lamp catalog instead. --Wtshymanski (talk) 22:03, 15 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I didn't mean it as a parts catalog. I believe the NE-83 is one of the ones with some radioactive element to decrease the starting voltage. As the article mentions some about that, and I remember using one many (many!) years ago, I thought about mentioning it. Parts catalogs don't give the details of the operation, such as which radioactive element it might have. Gah4 (talk) 23:24, 15 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

OK, an actual data sheet is here. Many lamps say "radioactive additive. Many more than I thought when I mentioned the NE-83. I thought someone else might know about it, and say something (in the article) about it. Sorry if it didn't come out that way. Gah4 (talk) 23:36, 15 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I get a little sensitized to people wanting a whole article about their favorite size of flashlight battery or individual diodes that they've known and loved. The NE83 is interesting as a class of lamps including radioactive material to improve operating characteristics. Added to article, with a reference and my thanks. --Wtshymanski (talk) 02:12, 16 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. When I wrote that, I thought that the NE-83 was a rare lamp with a radioactive additive. Looking through the linked data sheets, it seems not rare, though it might be that many of the lamps are rare. I think my first real electronics project, when I was about 9, is a touch switch from Popular Science that uses the NE-83 and an SCR. So I forever remember that part number, and thought others might also remember it. I found one that mentions H3, which I presume is tritium, regarding a neon lamp, but never knew what is in the NE-83. And mine is over 50 years old now. Gah4 (talk) 15:08, 16 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That's three half-lives, so there's a lot less tritium in it now than when it left the 1970's. I imagine thre's stricter rules today on even trace usage of radioisotopes...do they still even make wristwatches with glowing hands? That was a standard feature of bedside alarm clocks back in the olden days. --Wtshymanski (talk) 19:55, 20 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

But I don't actually know it is tritium. Only one place mentions it, and maybe not a WP:RS. I believe I once knew about tritium watch lighting, but never saw one. I don't think the radium watches are made anymore. I did once know of a refrigerator with a sign not to store your lunch next to the tritium ice. Gah4 (talk) 01:48, 21 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"RGBA pixel" seems far fetched (because physically impossible)

the "RGBA pixel" mentioned (apparently off topic) in the section about alphanumeric displays seems odd... how exactly does one use an electric glow discharge (light) to turn a physical object (the tube) invisible ("A")? the citation is a contextless scan of what looks like a super-condensed datasheet in russian. a quick translation using an OCR tool does not mention anything about an alpha channel, instead seems to specify "YGRB" (according to the list of "color channel brightnesses" and "the letters denote ..." note right below the drawing on page 2). the only vaguely "alpha" or "a" looking/sounding thing involved seems to be pin labelling for counting purposes or the actual anode (not 110% sure which one is which). either way this should probably be corrected by someone who actually understands russian, but i'm extremely certain "RGBA" is not a term we should use when talking about very much opaque light emitters :P 92.76.149.69 (talk) 05:43, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Handbook of Vacuum Physics, Vol.2, Physical Electronics, A.H. Beck, ed., 1965, Page 5, Pergamon Press

[minati-2] Minati L, de Candia A, Scarpetta S. "Critical phenomena at a first-order phase transition in a lattice of glow lamps: Experimental findings and analogy to neural activity"

[3] "Dance JN, Cold Cathode Tubes, Iliffe, London, UK, 1968"

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