Talk:Murder of Yingying Zhang

Inappropriate name

This article is inappropriately named. The case is being investigated by authorities as a possible kidnapping, but there is not yet a positive indication that that is the case, and Wikipedia should treat it as a disappearance. Nobody knows whether she got into the vehicle willingly or not. I suggest that the content of this article (which is better referenced) be transferred to Disappearance of Yingying Zhang, which currently redirects here, and that this article then redirect to it. Akld guy (talk) 20:48, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

Note that I wrote the above ten days before the news broke that a man had been arrested and charged. The circumstances are still inconclusive as to whether she was kidnapped, and the man is presumed not guilty at this stage. Akld guy (talk) 00:09, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

Struck out my request as the article (and this Talk page) have been moved from Kidnapping of Yingying Zhang. Akld guy (talk) 00:13, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

According to RSs, particularly the updated RSs (such as this one), the title should be "Kidnapping of ..." or "Kidnapping Case of ...". WP has to follow reliable resources, and WP is not a court. Regards. --Lvhis (talk) 04:19, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

@Lvhis: Correct, it's not a court. Therefore we cannot presume that the arrested man is guilty. There is no evidence (yet) that she has been kidnapped, only suspicion. Please move it back. Akld guy (talk) 04:32, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

@Akld guy, It is not "we(WP) presume". It is what RS has used. We/WP have to follow RSs, otherwise, you will do an OR/presume against RSs, i.e. against WP policies. --Lvhis (talk) 04:47, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

@Lvhis: Point me to a source that says she has been kidnapped. Akld guy (talk) 04:55, 6 July 2017 (UTC)[]

[1][2][3][4] and more ... .--Lvhis (talk) 05:08, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

@Lvhis: Not one of those sources say that she definitely was kidnapped. Nobody knows whether she was or wasn't. It's all innuendo based on the charge of kidnapping and murder, without a body being found or the full story being known. The news media are playing this up as a kidnapping without anything to base that on, other than the fact that she is missing. Point me to a source that says she was kidnapped. Not one that slyly alleges it. Akld guy (talk) 07:49, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

@Akld guy:, (edit conflict) WP is neither a law firm nor a lecture class in a law school. The source of FBI, the authority, is also an RS. Now is your turn to provide a source clearly denying this is not a kidnapping. You cannot use your knowledge about law to judge this specific WP article, as it will be an OR.--Lvhis (talk) 15:56, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 6 July 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved  — Amakuru (talk) 12:25, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

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Disappearance of Yingying Zhang → Kidnapping case of Yingying Zhang – Support- WP is neither a law firm nor a lecture class in a law school. The source of FBI, the authority, is also Reliable Source. Any one who refuses to use "kidnapping" for the title of this page needs to provide a source clearly stating that this is not a kidnapping. Using one's knowledge about law to judge this title of this page is an Original Research that violates WP's policy. Lvhis (talk) 16:15, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose for now - As we speak, the case is still under investigation, and should be treated as a disappearance until proven otherwise. A kidnapping is a type of disappearance, but a disappearance is not necessarily a kidnapping. --Jax 0677 (talk) 16:23, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
  • @Jax 0677: please be noted, the requested move is to "Kidnapping Case of ...". This is a 100% "Kidnapping Case" already, but not a "disappearing case" at all. If you oppose the move, as I pointed above, you need to provide specific RS to this case, not just a general reason. --Lvhis (talk) 16:48, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

You have failed to provide a source that says that Yingying Zhang was kidnapped. You have only provided sources which refer to the disappearance as though a kidnapping had occurred. Kidnapping has not been established as a fact yet, despite the arrested individual's alleged confession, and he must be presumed innocent at this stage. It probably will be, but unlike mainstream media, WP does not exaggerate in order to derive financial benefit. Akld guy (talk) 20:11, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

@Akld guy:, you are talking about title "Kidnapping of ...", but here is regarding "Kidnapping case of ...". Do you note the difference?--Lvhis (talk) 20:16, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose: For two reasons: 1) no one has been convicted and it is not really known what happened after she got into the car, so we don't know for sure it was a kidnapping – just because the FBI accuses someone of something doesn't mean they are guilty. 2) The FBI said they think she is dead, so this seems likely to ultimately be better described as a death/homicide/killing/murder than as a kidnapping – the kidnapping charge is probably just what they're using to keep the alleged perpetrator behind bars while they investigate further. For now it is best described as a disappearance. —BarrelProof (talk) 20:58, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

• Unsure: The FBI is treating this case as a kidnapping, so I believe the title should be labelled as such. However, I also agree with the opposition. If the title is to remain as disappearance, then the heading "abduction" should be changed, as abduction implies a kidnapping.Atontado (talk) 06:10, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

• Remind to every one who is interested in this discussion: Again, we have to stick to WP's important policy WP:V, WP:SOURCE, and WP:OR. As of now, it is crystal clear that there is only one legal case, Kidnapping case, with this said victim Yingying Zhang. This is from firm reliable sources. The pending future final court/jury decisions or consequences do not affect the current case is a kidnapping case. WP users shall not challenge reliable sources with their own knowledge, including law knowledge that is their own original research. No reliable source, no base for opposition.--Lvhis (talk) 19:05, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose: I have already made myself clear above, but repeat that there is no online source stating that Zhang was kidnapped, because nobody knows the circumstances yet. Akld guy (talk) 19:49, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Christensen's mugshot

I had to delete Christensen's mugshot off of the article because I couldn't find evidence of permission to use the mugshot (I'm a total noob at Wikipedia). If anyone else wants to upload it and find appropriate permissions, that would be appreciated.Atontado (talk) 01:48, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

If I recall correctly, mugshots in the United States are not copyrighted, so no permission is needed. —BarrelProof (talk) 04:48, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

That got deleted after all. I don't understand why. There was some rationale for its use that was provided before it was deleted. —BarrelProof (talk) 04:58, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

@BarrelProof: To see why it got deleted, go to the article, click "View history". For the record, the reason stated in the edit summary was as follows: (Removing Christensen_mugshot.jpg, it has been deleted from Commons by Billinghurst because: Copyright violation; can usually be uploaded to your local Wikipedia as fair use if an ar). In other words, the image was no longer available on Commons. Akld guy (talk) 06:50, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

Yes, thank you. But I had thought that there was no copyright on a mugshot, so I don't understand why copyright violation would be given as a reason for deleting it. I do see the phrase "can usually be uploaded to your local Wikipedia as fair use". I have the impression that it should be possible to restore it for en-Wikipedia purpose, but I'm not that familiar with these issues. —BarrelProof (talk) 01:44, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

Reply - WP:MUG. --Jax 0677 (talk) 14:22, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

Updated the name

I updated the name as "Kidnapping case of Yingying Zhang" to meet the updated content which is all about a formal kidnapping case. Please do not move the page elsewhere unless this kidnapping case is formally and legally dismissed. --Lvhis (talk) 16:22, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Regardless of what you personally think, your move (which I just reverted) directly contradicted the outcome of a formal RM discussion that ended just one week ago and was decided against your suggested name. Don't tell people that you know better and that they need to obey your individual opinion. If you think there is some new justification for moving the article, please submit another RM and have it discussed properly. Don't move the article without proper discussion in a way that is clearly against the consensus that was just recently established. That behaviour is disruptive to the smooth functioning of the collaborative community consensus process. Before, during, and after the RM discussion you have persisted with trying to impose your view despite clear indications that it is contrary to the community consensus. Your editing privileges can be blocked for this type of behaviour. —BarrelProof (talk) 01:04, 22 July 2017 (UTC)

Criticism section

I suppose that I should be the one writing this talk section since I'm the one who wrote the criticism section. Someone posted this page to the UIUC subreddit and there seems to be a general consensus that the criticism section is unnecessary. See: https://www.reddit.com/r/UIUC/comments/6ou2nf/wikipedia_page_on_yingying_zhang/ Her disappearance was in no way the bus driver's fault. The driver not stopping for her got attention, which was why I included it. In addition, it seems that the university purchasing new security cameras was a direct result of this case, which was why I included it. Do you guys think the section is unnecessary? When I wrote the section, I was aiming to make it sound unbiased and to make the whole page similar to other disappearance/kidnapping pages. See: Disappearance of Natalee Holloway, Kidnapping of Jaycee Dugard (I'm sure there's more pages with a similar section, you get the gist.) Atontado (talk) 19:41, 22 July 2017 (UTC)

I've got no strong feelings either way, but I note that both of the substantive paragraphs are reliably sourced and neutrally worded. And so, I don't see any policy-based reason for not having the section. But both paragraphs might be improved if there was some documentation as to who is doing the criticizing. And the final paragraph is a bit awkward in its wording (I get the impression that the meaning is -- "they asked (who?) for new cameras last year, but didn't get them (why not?). And now they are in the process of getting them (when?)". One final point -- the source doesn't say that there was a "halt" in the investigation. It merely states that it didn't go as quickly as it might have. That's not the same as a "halt". NewYorkActuary (talk) 21:04, 23 July 2017 (UTC)

I do not think the section is unnecessary, and it seems appropriate in the case of the criticism of the bus driver and the bus company's policy. I do have a concern that the intro sentence says: Some supporters of Zhang looked at a number of scenarios in which her disappearance could have been prevented., which implies that Zhang's followers have also criticized the university on account of the video footage quality. In the reference for the university updating the cameras, there is nothing that indicates criticism by Zhang's followers or anyone else, not even the police. It mentions only "concerns by parents and students". I think this video quality portion is not appropriate in the section and should be moved elsewhere. Akld guy (talk) 21:43, 23 July 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, "Zhang's followers" is kind of an awkward wording, but I didn't know what else to put in the moment. I'm glad it got fixed. Atontado (talk) 01:06, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

[Recording that at this point, before the Random IP's post, the section was renamed "Controversy". I have no problem with the rename, and for the most part it addresses my concern expressed above.] Akld guy (talk) 00:57, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

Hi. Random IP address here, because I'm too lazy to make an account. I changed several things grammar wise because it read less like a Wikipedia page, and more like a Rhet 105 paper. I believe both points to be valid criticism. On the bus incident, it was prominent enough to warrant an MTD response, so both the criticism and the response should be included. Camera thing is self-explanatory. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.161.84.225 (talk) 20:05, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

Thank you all for your comments and edits on the section! I know that I'm not the most perfect writer, so I'm glad that people were able to correct my writing for me. I now fully believe that the section was necessary and justified, and I also agree with the rename of the section to "controversy" as this implies that the other writers and I had no ill bias towards the bus driver. I'd also like to thank whoever supported the justification of the section on Reddit, if you're reading this. I'd comment on the post, but I'd rather not reveal my Reddit username. Atontado (talk) 01:06, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

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Brent Christensen

Should {{about|the diplomat|the former student|Disappearance of Yingying Zhang}} be placed at the top of article Brent Christensen? --Jax 0677 (talk) 09:07, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

Personal categories

Although potentially under WP:BLP (or, at least, persons not known to be dead), the article is not about Yingying Zhang, but about her disappearance, so it should not appear in categories related to the person, such as Category:1990 births. Also, I deleted Category:Missing persons in favor of the more specific Category:Missing person cases in the United States. If you want to restore categories, please check the charters of the individual categories to see if articles not about the person should be included. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 07:21, 23 August 2018 (UTC)

Denial of defense motions: copyright issue

While cited, the Denial of defense motions section essentially directly copies the entire Northwest Herald AP article . If someone with more experience dealing with copyright violations could address the issue, that would be appreciated. Markg17 (talk) 04:52, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

References

Title

Since Christensen's lawyers admitted that Christensen killed Zhang, should the title of the page be changed to Killing of Yingying Zhang? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Atontado (talk • contribs) 22:29, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

@Atontado: Appreciate your updated work on this article very much! And the title of this article shall definitely be changed or updated. You have moved the page under the title "Murder of Yingying Zhang" which is better than the previous one "Disappearance of ...", while may I suggest to add a word "Kidnapping" on the title to make it as "Kidnapping and murder of Yingying Zhang"? This is supported by the federal jury's verdict from RS. Thanks. --Lvhis (talk) 22:45, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

@Lvhis: The current Wikipedia standard in cases where people were kidnapped and then later found to be dead is to use only "Murder" (cf. the articles on Jacob Wetterling, Dru Sjodin, and many others). ElectricValkyrie (talk) 14:37, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

@ElectricValkyrie: What's about this one Kidnapping and murder of Mohammed Abu Khdeir, this one Kidnapping and murder of Lesley Whittle, and more of such as [5],[6][7][8][9]...? --Lvhis (talk) 16:22, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

To add to article

To add to this article: was blood found in Christensen's apartment? 173.88.246.138 (talk) 00:35, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

According to the 20/20 show featuring this story, multiple blood and other fluids determined to be Yingyings's were found on the mattress and carpet of the bedroom. The drywall was abraded down to the base, the carpet was also scrubbed. The video showed what I presume to be UV evidence from the bedroom. I'm not touting the TV program as evidence or reference, just pointing it out in answer to the question. SkoreKeep (talk) 10:31, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Brendt Christensen.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 11:38, 23 April 2023 (UTC)