Talk:Mozart in Italy

Copyediting questions and other suggestions

I'm sorry I didn't make it to the official peer review! I have tried to make up for this by copyediting the article a bit. I do have a few questions as a result (of course):

• During these journeys the children's performances made a considerable impression across European society. - What kind of impression?
  • I've extended this to "...performances had captivated audiences, and made a considerable impression..." etc
• From this perspective, the journeys were a considerable success. - It is not a good idea to use "this" at the beginning of a paragraph, as its referent is unclear. It is best to explain what perspective you mean.
  • Reworded to: "From the perspective of Wolfgang's musical development..."
• I was wondering if more redlinks could be added to this article (I added a few)? I noticed in particular: German nobility, individual pieces of music, and musicians that could possibly have their own articles.
  • I'm not a fan of too many redlinks, which tend to distract readers less well versed in Wikipedia practices. The composer Gasparini, perhaps, but I think I'll link him and write a short article, as I believe Noetica has done with de Gammera.
    • The lack of redlinks, however, gives the illusion that Wikipedia is "finished" and that "there are no more articles to create". We should redlink what needs an article. Awadewit (talk) 19:51, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

• Italy was considered a Mecca for all musicians, especially with regard to opera - "considered a Mecca" is imprecise and the allusion will be lost on many readers
  • OK, I've rewritten this bit, to lose references to Mecca. It now reads: "Italy, for more than two centuries, had been the source of innovation in musical style, the home of church music and, especially, the cradle of opera." This is close to what Sadie says, without his Mecca metaphor.

• fostering a positive attitude towards the forthcoming trip from the archbishop, Siegmund Christoph von Schrattenbach - "positive attitude" sounds generic and rather like a motivational speaker - would something like "favorable" or "sympathetic" work?
  • You are right, "positive attitude" sounds like something from a management seminar. However, I had picked this up and altered it yesterday, when I was tracking your copyedits. It now reads: "Wolfgang composed prolifically, gaining the favour of Archbishop Schrattenbach..." etc

• He was cautious about revealing too much of the tour's finances - Why was he cautious?
  • This was explained in a footnote at the end of this sentence, but I have now abolished the footnote and included the reasons for his caution in the text.

• I think that the captions could be improved. Simple names and dates are not as interesting as little factoids. I've done a little along this line already.
  • You seem to have done a thorough job here. I can't see much scope for adding further information to the captions.

• Wolfgang's grasp of Italian diction was revealed as the recitatives were practised, - "good grasp" or "poor grasp"?
  • I've changed "grasp" to mastery"
    • Wow - so much better. I'm going to use this as an example in my writing class. :) Awadewit (talk) 20:06, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

• File:Dal Re, Marc'Antonio (1697-1766) - Vedute di Milano - 71 - S. Maria alla Scala - ca. 1745.jpg.jpg - This image seems a bit unrelated to the text.
  • Yes, it is a bit tangential. I thought, however, that opera lovers would be interested to know that the theatre which saw Mozart's first opera triumphs was the predecessor of the universally-known La Scala. I had a bit in the text about this connection, but it's been copyedited out. Basically, when Teatro Regio Ducal burned down, La Scala was built on an adjoining site, occupied by Santa Maria alla Scala, hence the new opera house's name. I could reintroduce a brief explanation into the text, or leave the brief description in the caption, or lose the image. I'd be sorry to withdraw it, because I think the information is interesting, but I'll be guided.
    • It is interesting - since the information is a bit tangential, why don't we leave it in the caption. Awadewit (talk) 20:06, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

• Before returning to Salzburg, Leopold and Wolfgang travelled to Venice, pausing at Brescia to see a comic opera. - I have linked to comic opera here, but I was wondering if the term opera buffa might be more precise?
  • Yes it would. Fixed.

• This created a conflict of dates that would prevent Wolfgang from fulfilling the San Benedetto contract. - How was the conflict resolved?
  • The date conflict couldn't be resolved, so the San Benedetto opera wasn't written. I've clarified this: "...which prevented Wolfgang from proceeding with the San Benedetto contract."

• He contrived a further symphony from the Ascanio overture, adding a finale. - This is unclear - did he add the finale, thus making it a symphony?
  • Yes, he added a finale to the two-movement overture. I've explained this now, in the text.

• However, the appointment would now be made by the new archbishop, whose policies and attitudes were unclear. - "unclear" or "unknown"?
  • Clearly, "unknown" is right, since they didn't know at that stage who would be appointed. I've changed it.

• Wolfgang found himself in the familiar routine of composing against the clock while coping with dramas such as the late arrival of singers and the withdrawal of the principal tenor through illness. - a bit slangy - "against the clock" and "dramas"
  • "against the clock" --> "rapidly", "dramas" --> "problems"

• There had been some financial success,[2] and Wolfgang had developed artistically. - Can we be a bit more specific about Mozart's artistic development? What did he learn, exactly? This is explained a bit more later in the paragraph, but a phrase here would be good.
  • I want to avoid repeating information already in the paragraph, so I've limited this to: "Wolfgang had developed artistically, into a recognised composer." This is part of some significant alteration to the beginning of this section, arising from your next comment.

• Maynard Solomon summarises the Italian journeys as Leopold's greatest triumph, but also as a great failure - This sentence is a bit confusing, as one expects the "but also" part to be about Leopold as well. I would suggest rewording it.
  • Yes, rewording was necessary. Inter alia, I've got rid of one of my least favourite formulations ("Not only...but also") – how that got in, I don't know. Punch-drunk, no doubt.

• I think that having audio clips of the pieces he wrote during this time would be wonderful. One of the things that sets Wikipedia apart is its ability to have multimedia. An article about Mozart without music is a travesty. :)
  • Hmmm, my article is a "grotesque parody"? I suspected all along that there was something dodgy about it. However, as to the clips, you may remember this issue arising during the FAC of the grand tour article. I was directed to User:Shoemaker's Holiday, who promised to look into this. After a couple of reminders and further unfulfilled promises of immediate action, I gave up. I am willing to try him again, unless you know of someone else who has expertise in this area. Everyone else I've tried has referred me to the Shoemaker.
    • Do you want to work on it together? I would be willing to put some time into this, since it is Mozart. :) I also have access to a wonderful library of recordings at my university.

I hope these suggestions are helpful. Awadewit (talk) 02:02, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

I am indeed grateful for these suggestions, and as you can see, I have acted on all of them. I now feel that I probably made a mistake in closing the peer review too early; people care a great deal more about Mozart than they do about, say, Carsten Borchgrevink, and will often bring strong personal feelings to their reading and reviewing. So one needs to be doubly careful about what is said, and how it is presented. It's all part of the learning curve. Brianboulton (talk) 16:42, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Jane Austen is my Mozart. Remember the peer review for Reception history of Jane Austen? Even with that level of attention at PR, we received an oppose at FAC. :( Awadewit (talk) 20:06, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I remember the Jane Austen oppose - Fuchs, that was. Opposes as such don't bother me, if they are bona fide and result in better articles. I think that is the case here, and will continue to work towards its improvement.

On the question of sound clips, I would be delighted to work with you. I am very sketchy about what is involved, beyond knowing that the recording has to be out of copyright, which generally means old. What the technicalities are of creating the clip and transferring it into the article, heaven knows. Assuming that the practicalities can be resolved, it would be good to have excerpts from any of the three operas, of Exsultate Jubilate, Symphony No. 10, or any of the minor works. Shall I try, first, with Shoemaker's Holiday? I'm sure he'd be willing to help, but he gets very busy and so some things don't get done. Brianboulton (talk) 21:54, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't really know, either, so we might as well learn together. It is also my understanding that the recordings need to be in the PD. We can only use fair use clips when there is no free alternative. Do you happen to know of any PD recordings of these pieces? If you don't, do you know where we can start to look for a list of Mozart recordings? Awadewit (talk) 03:59, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Sound clips

I have looked at WP:Creation and usage of media files, which gives technical information which I don't really undrstand. It gives a link to WP:Sound/list, which lists available PD recordings. There's a lot of Mozart there, but nothing from the Italian journeys period - although the list is evidently "incomplete". Another link to WP:Music samples indicates that short clips of non-free music, no more than 10% of the work's length, may in some circumstances be used. I am no wiser as to the process for actually creating a sound file.

That's all I've found out so far. I have also written to User:Shoemaker's Holiday, as this may still be the quickest way of getting what we want. Brianboulton (talk) 11:08, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

The Shoemaker has replied thus to my request:

"As for the Mozart in Italy request - I've checked my usual archives - one seems to have gotten a big sampling of material from a Freemason - LOTS of Zauberflote, nothing else by Mozart, the other didn't have anything. I have checked, there IS a PD recording by Geraldine Farrar, but I haven't found it.

Now, that said, I've made several enquiries, and think I should be able to at least arrange a piano-and-voice recording of one or more of the works in question. If nothing else, I can give you an excellent link: http://downloadmozart.com/ has full, no-commercial-use (Drat!) but otherwise free-licensed copies of... pretty much everything Mozart ever wrote, including the Betulia Liberata, all the operas in question, and so on. We may not be able to use it on Wikipedia, but we can certainly link there. I've sent an e-mail to them about relaxing the licensing for some pieces or parts of pieces; we shall see if anything comes of that."

So that's something. Brianboulton (talk) 16:44, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Myslivecek and Mozart

I did add notes about Myslivecek's relationship with Mozart in this article, however the significance of their relationship was questioned. In light of the research presented in the study cited, Freeman 2009, there can be no question that he was a major influence on Mozart, both in terms of musical style and personal relations. Contrary to what the individual who questioned this significance seems to believe, the community of Mozart scholars in western Europe and the United States has not made a decision in this matter by carefully examining Myslivecek's music and rejecting the possibility of his influence, rather these scholars have simply not looked at his music at all and have ignored the considerable number of letters in the Mozart correspondence that document the closeness of his personal relationship with the Mozart family. The reasons for the neglect of Myslivecek by Mozart scholars is documented in the same study.

The above anonymous post is a personal view. Whoever you are, you are welcome to write an article exposing the apparent conspiracy of Mozart scholars to deny Myslivecek his due. I will look forward to reading it. That is not, however, the subject of this article, which is to summarise Mozart's three Italian journeys; the Myslivecek-related must be kept proportionate. As no source for the portrait has been defined I have removed it until the required information is on file. Brianboulton (talk) 23:22, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

"Prince San Angelo of Naples"

Something's wrong here: I can only suggest a member of the Marulli family, principi di Sant'Angelo dei Lombardi.--Wetman (talk) 01:47, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

I don't know who Prince San Angelo of Naples was; Sadie lists him along with several others who were at Pallavicini's soiree. It's only a passing mention, and it can easily be withdrawn from the article if it is likely that Sadie misnamed the gentleman. Brianboulton (talk) 09:09, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

No harm with the text as is. It's just a question of identifying him, if it can be done. So I find the exact wording in Sadie's source, a letter from Leopold Mozart, (Emily Anderson, ed. The Letters of Mozart and his Family, 1938, vol. I letter 88, p. 191) is "a Neapolitan Prince San Angelo", at whose house they were. The "so-called King of England" turned up at the palazzo of "Prince Chigi" and again at Palazzo Barberini, where the Mozarts also met Prince Francis Xavier of Saxony. They met "Mr Beckford" at his sister "Thomas Howard, 2nd Earl of Effingham|Lady Effingham]]"'s A couple of these other names might be more interesting than that unidentified principe di Sant'Angelo dei Lombardi from Naples.--Wetman (talk) 21:45, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

the map

The borders of the map are wrong for the time period. This is a modern map of Italy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.209.27.142 (talk) 04:51, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

I presume that the map is just intended to highlight the Italian Peninsula, though I agree that showing which towns on the tour belonged to which principality at the time would be tremendously useful. GeeJo ^(t)⁄_(c) • 10:37, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Furthermore, Bolzano was a name that came into use in the early 20th Century. The city was exclusively called Bozen at the time. If you want to be historically acurate then change it or include both. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.209.25.59 (talk) 08:54, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Discussion...

No one has "talked" on the talk page for going-on four years, so I wanted to mention (after some years of reflection) that I feel like this article is the epitome of what WP can accomplish that traditional music dictionaries (including great ones like Grove) struggle to do. What we have here is, in a reasonable length article that can be digested in an hour or two, a wonderful introduction to an important part of a major composer's life and career. To try to fit all of this into a "Mozart" article is to say that a reader cannot increase his or her knowledge of the composer in any way without digging into a book-length treatment of the composer. To cut it out is to say that the depth of scholarship on Mozart would have no interest to anyone who is not a professional musicologist. By pulling out a significant part of the composer's life into a separate article, WP and the authors of the article have achieved the best of all possible worlds -- making this knowledge accessible without being overwhelming. Articles such as this one were, mostly, born at a time when WP was more stringent in enforcing limits on article lengths, and I wish it would be again so that its purpose in being the world's encyclopedia can continue to flourish. -- Michael Scott Cuthbert (talk) 08:43, 20 April 2014 (UTC)