Talk:Moors/Archive 3

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Edit Request to rid the article of Racialism.

In the first paragraph of this article there is a distinction made between Berbers and black africans which is absurd. Modern Berbers are not a race nor a complexion. They are an indigenous group of Africans who range from very fair skin to dark skin. A wide range of historical sources all point to the dark skin of the ancient Berbers. I have already cited many of these sources. Here is one quote from Ibn Butlan (from 11th century Baghdad) I forgot to cite:

"Their color is mostly black though some pale ones can be found among them. If you can find one whose mother is of Kutama, whose father is of Sanhaja, and whose origin is Masmuda, then you will find her naturally inclined to obedience and loyalty in all matters ..."

In particular references to the Almorhavids all the historical sources commenting on their ethnicity portray them as mostly darkskinned, which is not surprising considering the Almorharvid movement was sparked and developed in Senegal, where some of the blackest people in the world live.

I also find it strange that this artticle absurdly defines Moors as strictly moslem when many of the famous Moors are Christians, black christians. I would appreciate it if you allowed the necessary changes to be made in this article. As my first attempt has been reversed.

My first attempt was in the first paragraph. Where i tried to get rid of the distinction between Berbers and black Africans as Berbers were frequently or mostly black Africans themselves. Here is my paragraph:

"The term Moors has referred to several historic and modern populations, used principally in reference to the Berber people (Stanley Lane-Poole , Arthur Gilman; The Story of The Moors in Spain, 1903) but also came to be used for converted Muslims of Iberian descent,and also for other Africans besides Berbers as well as Arabs and Persians who made up the populations of Islamic Spain. After the expulsion of the Moors from Spain, the term up to the 19th century was widely understood or accepted as reference to any dark skin person of African descent, including Christians (John Olgilvie, The Imperial Dictionary of the English Language (1882)). From their base in northern Africa, they came to conquer, occupy and rule territories in the Iberian Peninsula for varying periods in different regions, ranging from two decades in the north-west to nearly eight hundred years in the south-east. At that time they were Muslims, although earlier these people had followed religions other than Islam. They called the territory they controlled in Iberia Al Andalus, which at its peak comprised most of what is now Spain and Portugal. For a shorter period called Islamic Sicily, they controlled all of Sicily and Malta, as well as other smaller parts of southern Italy."

I would appreciate feedback.

Ahmedbaba (talk) 01:42, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Berbers today are overwhelmingly Caucasian, so the distinction between them and black Africans seems appropriate to me. And for what it's worth, "Caucasian" does not have to mean that one possesses light skin; Middle Easterners and Northern Africans in general have dark skin, but are still Caucasian. The fact that they have dark skin doesn't make them black. Indians are another example.ElliotJoyce (talk) 04:35, 1 May 2012 (UTC)sockpuppet of Vost

Following the Lead is cited material noting that people from West Africa (sub-Saharan) became incorporated into the dynasty - I read the section you're objecting to as noting the wide variety of peoples who were historically referred to by that term.Parkwells (talk) 18:59, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

Issues with the lead

I've seen editors go back and forth over racial/ethnic issues in the lead, someone asserted that the Moors conquered and ruled [all of] the Iberian peninsula for over 800 years (which is factually false), and someone else added a fact tag to it. The lead is unstable because it has been the subject of poorly written, poorly sourced and sometimes counterfactual POV-pushing. I would REALLY like to know how this does anything to improve the article. Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 03:49, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Changed it to "medieval Muslim inhabitants". Because the statement "populations from Northern Africa" was wrong because the population was not exclusively North African. Even the caliphs of Córdoba themselves were not from North Africa. Khestwol (talk) 08:25, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for your work on the lead. I will see if I can get some time in the library this weekend to work on bringing more reliable sources into the article. I also have two research papers to work on, so it's a matter of time management for me. Thanks Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 16:51, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your edits. The section "Medieval Sicily" mentions Moorish Muslims of medieval Sicily and Lucera in Italy too, I added a mention of them to the lead. Khestwol (talk) 10:24, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

I see we are still going back and forth over the inclusion of "muslim", "arab" and "berber", and I think some citations to reliable sources with these mentions in the lead would help. My American Heritage Dictionary states Moors are "people of mixed Berber and Arab descent," but that is a tertiary source. Anybody got reliable secondary sources handy? Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 17:19, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Suggestion regarding the "debate"

It seems to me that gray areas are being assumed relevant to the lead.

The remedy would appear to be to note these disputes right under the head with subheads pertaining to what they are about, something like this:

"Reader Disputes

"Race Defined by Color

"Some who have read this article find it insulting that portions of the head, and references in it, explain history that also explains how that history defined race by color and nothing else. Reason and science in the modern day reject this means of defining race but this principle was relevant to the more oppressive and tyrannical past of mankind, portions of which are being discussed in this article. Thus, to accurately explain and portray that history, it is germane to the purposes of the article.

"The Iberian Peninsula

"There has also been a dispute amongst readers where some suggest the Moors conquered and ruled [all of] the Iberian peninsula for over 800 years. Until citation to a verifiable record of this information is made this article will reference it as a dispute amongst readers, and this is done in an effort to be inclusive of those with this view while explaining that there is no known factual basis for it."

"These disputes have been set forth and classified in this manner in an effort to help them be resolvable disputes within an arguable and provable context instead of as a "static-in-crosstalk" unable to be resolved in a manner that contributes to the article."

My 2 cents as a reader who found this in searching for some information on Moors.

Thank you and apologize for typos etc., no grammarian here.
--71.223.40.124 (talk) 17:44, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

  The "reader who found this in searching for some information on Moors" could of course better have stated the proposal in terms of our DABbing practices and NPoV, but more to the point they will hopefully be around to help correct our probable misunderstandings of their concerns and of their arguments for fixes. I'll probably have more to say on this talk page -- tho my own interest in the article is more concerned with the DAB problems than the NPoV ones.
--Jerzy•t 22:28, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Gallery revert

About this [1] revert: I removed the gallery not because I have some general objection against galleries, but because the contents of this particular gallery were inappropriate. It was a random and rather tasteless collection of mostly late, non-contemporary paintings, several of them full of orientalist stereotype (such as the clichéed and utterly ahistorical "Picking the Favourite", a typical example of 19th-century European salacious phantasizing about "oriental" harems and the like, or the equally stereotyped (and mislabelled) File:Moorish King Of Grenada.jpg. These things tell us a lot about western European imaginations of the "other", but they tell us precious little about the actual historical Moors. These images need to be removed, unless they were embedded in some insightful and well-sourced commentary, in a section about "cultural depictions" or something like that. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:36, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

I c the kind of stuff that would make Edward Said turn in his grave. No problem. --Inayity (talk) 20:55, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Heraldry

The moor and savage are utterly distinct. It's as if a person said a lion was sometimes called a tiger. I am going to edit. --Daniel C. Boyer (talk) 15:41, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

What does the image of St. James the Moor Slayer contribute to the overall narrative?

I don't understand it's purpose. Personally I would move to have it deleted, simply because it's purpose is reflective of anti-Moorish notions amongst the Aragonese, but is ultimately irrelevant, I feel that you would find that kind of sentiment against other ethnic and religious groups to be common for all groups. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.28.162.83 (talk) 23:14, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

I agree that showing this image in the lead section is odd, to say the least, in this context. I'll be bold and remove it. If someone cares to move it into an appropriate section, I won't object, but its current placement in the lead is inflammatory. Honestly, I came to this article by way of heraldry-related edits and never paid much attention to the rest of the article until recently, but I'll be looking it over in the next few months. Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 17:18, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Berbers are not African!!!! Their racial features do not resemble any African traits at all. They are a different group of people NOT AFRICAN. One can tell when one looks African, based on facial features NOT color of skin. The writer is basing her/his assessment solely on color which is ridiculous!! Most North Africans will agree with what I have to say because I am from there. We are from North Africans but do not carry any African DNA. There are North Africans with strains from the south of the continent; it is clearly evident in their outlook. The writer needs to research correctly not based on emotions and feelings and his/her opinion!!! Egyptian culture enslaved most Africans, some inter married, few rose to prominence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.119.149.199 (talk) 15:30, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Regarding the Population Genetics section

There are multiple issues with this section. First, a source and statement are needed to frame its necessity in the article (i.e., that the genetic and ethnic origins and make-up of Moorish peoples is in dispute). Without such a statement, the section's necessity is in question. Speaking specifically to what is already there: the first paragraph regarding the Howard University professor contains weasel words and should be cleaned up. The second paragraph likewise contains no explanation or statement framing its reason for inclusion. Additionally, this section addresses only one of the groups that the term "Moor" was applied to (and briefly, at that). The Berber article adequately addresses the genetic attributes of that ethnic group, so reiterating it here is unnecessary, unless the section is intended to briefly address the genetic attributes of all the above-mentioned groups.

In all, however, I believe that the earlier sections discussing the ethnic and geographic dynamics of Moors adequately addresses the concerns this section is supposed to, and it may therefore be completely unnecessary. As it exists now, I understand that these concerns may be contentious, so I've refrained from editing the content as of yet. However, I am adding a section tag so that these concerns may be addressed. 68.34.18.128 (talk) 03:04, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Correcting Weasel words has never been that controversial. --Inayity (talk) 16:21, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Okay, went ahead and edited it, then. The other concerns should still be addressed. 68.34.18.128 (talk) 22:17, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

As there has not yet been suitable justification for the inclusion of the Berber y-haplogroup information in the genetics section, and as that information is covered more adequately in other articles, I'm going to remove it for now. While it is in and of itself well-cited, there is no mention of its direct connection to the Moors, and only an offhand mention of its relation to modern Andalusian and Iberian populations (which does not itself connect it to the historical Moors that are the subject of this article). I can conceivably see why genetic information of the Moorish peoples would be of interest to readers, and would love to see someone with greater expertise take up this challenge and expand the section. However, right now it is underdeveloped, confusing, and unfortunately not completely justified in its inclusion. I'll be cleaning up the issue tags also. Feel free to comment.68.34.18.128 (talk) 01:37, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Disambiguation

How about a disambiguation link to the land feature known as a moor? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.139.71.233 (talk) 16:50, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Afrocentrism anyone?

The term "Moor" might apply to blacks in the Sahara and the Niger Delta/Senegal River, but in al-Andalus, the Moors were definitely not black, only a few were. Knowing all the medieval paintings of Muslims in Spain, there are only a couple of them that depict black Muslims, whereas literally dozens and dozens more show light-skinned (not even medium/brown-skinned) Muslims. I feel many of the pictures on this article are misleading; consider the classic picture that Afrocentrists love using: black Muslims playing chess. I checked the picture source, and it comes from an Afrocentrist website ("realhistoryww"). This is very biased because in the whole Book of Games, only a couple of pictures depict blacks whereas almost all of the other Muslims in the book are depicted as light-skinned. Are those pictures appropriate if they described Muslims from the Sahara or west Africa (Mali/Nigeria/Senegal)? Yes. Are those pictures appropriate if they described Muslims from Spain or Portugal? No. And that picture attempts to show what Muslims in al-Andalus looked like, which is inaccurate cherry-picking the two or three pictures of black Muslims in the Book of Games. That picture can be kept, but more pictures need to be added, otherwise this seems biased and even Afrocentrist.--Fernirm (talk) 21:32, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Is Afrocentrism a crime? the way you write makes it sound like one. Also the statement "Moors were def not black, only a few were" is contradictory. To illustrate a point about images, if you took all the media pictures from South Africa it would be hard to believe Africans are the majority."black" is a modern non-academic term,and we should leave it out of history. West African Muslims is better than black Muslims.--Inayity (talk) 09:08, 2 November 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.126.13.113 (talk)

Key facts about Moors

• Moor is not a specific ethnic group or even a race. Just like calling people black, it has been applied throughout the European colonies to very different people.
• Moor is a term used by Europeans to refer to the "other" Muslims. It has been a disparaging term, like Saracen.
• Moor is an ethnonym, Muslims did not call themselves Moors.

These key points are supported by numerous references. Notable is the work of the late scholar Maria Menocal. And Poole, and I will be adding ref from poole: The Story of Moors . --Inayity (talk) 10:33, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

"Moor is not a specific ethnic group or even a race" except is says in the lead "especially African or Arab descent" and then it says "applied the name to the Berbers, North African Arabs, Muslim Iberians and West Africans" and then it says "initially Arabs and Berbers" so you're saying "Moor is an ethnonym" which would make them a specific ethnic group and the sentence "Moors are not a distinct or self-defined people." contradicts itself because they're being self-defined right after that and preceding that. Yes, Moor is a term Europeans used to refer to Muslims inhabiting certain areas throughout the Middle Ages. Yes, also Moor is an ethnonym and the Moors initially came from North Africa and were of Arab and Berber descent just like the article says currently. My editorial formatted the article correctly by making it not contradict itself, putting it in chronological order, and replacing sources that weren't working and updating ones that were incorrectly linked. I still don't see how you dissent with the article in anyway on my last edit. Hopefully we can get back to civil discussion now and you will be willing to tell me why you disagree with my edit.70.126.13.113 (talk) 01:08, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

About this 1 revert: the reference you put goes nowhere and has no specific page number -- that's not even my main problem with this source as you referenced Stanley Lane-Poole a orientalist who is not a reliable source and while his oeuvre tells us a lot about Eurocentric sentiments, they lack any historicity at all. 70.126.13.113 (talk) 01:31, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Please review Paul disagrees, I disagree and so does Pinkbeast that is 3 which do not find your contributions helpful to this article. What this means is use the talk page for your points and do not revert! You do not delete a ref if a page number is missing! Learn the rules of editing. Please now.--Inayity (talk) 02:00, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

My recent reversion was regarding a new addition to this page and my editorial has changed over time. Pinkbeast reverted for a reason not advised by Wikipedia and Paul reverted my edit awhile back before my edits changed. I didn't delete your ref because the page number was missing as I put "that's not even my main problem with this source" as I then elaborated on my problem with the source and author. You obviously are illiterate and have demonstrated your illiteracy several times with misspellings, failure to read my posts, and misquotes. 70.126.13.113 (talk) 02:09, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

I don't want to get in too much in to this, but if you have a problem with a source but others feel it's okay, you should take it to WP:RS/N or use some other form of dispute resolution. As for the page number issue, you are welcome to politely request that a page number be added, as I think you understand, it's not a reason to remove a source. And please refrain from personal attacks like calling someone illiterate or you're likely to be blocked. Nil Einne (talk) 06:07, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Depiction and Information Involving Moors 2.0

This current article is a mess in various ways. The blatant contradictions, bad formatting (anachronism), sources, and awful pictorial representation of the Moors (not the first to complain about this) that are ahistorical and some even pictures even being extraneous and having nothing to do with Moors. I would like to rectify this article by fixing it innumerable ways (obvious hyperbole) but still a few ways. I just like to pintpoint the problems out right now. Obviously here's an example of contradictory in the lead it says "The term "Moors" has also been used in Europe in a broader sense to refer to Muslims, especially those of Arab or African descent" and then it says "Moors are not a distinct or self-defined people" but you just defined and distinguished them to a certain degree right there. It gets worse though cause it says "Europeans applied the name to the Berbers, North African Arabs, Muslim Iberians and West Africans" so now you are defining them and making a distinction as to what ethnicties/races consisted of the Moors. Yet in the next paragraph it says "were initially Arabs and Berbers" so now you're making a distinction and defining them again. It just comes off as completely contradicting and chronologically misplaced too.

Now onto the sources -- the first reference goes nowhere and has no page number. It also refers to a book by Stanley Lane-Poole who was a British orientalist. I mean, really? Having a reference by a orientalist in this article about the Moors who were Muslim but as the first reference too? It's the epitome a questionable source and should be replaced by a different one. The third reference goes to an incorrect link. The fourth 4th reference goes nowhere either and lacks a page number too. The 6th source has no page number as well but it goes to a source that is a book by Ivan van Sertima a well known Afrocentrist for distortion of history and has been chastised for his psuedohistorical views. Thankfully this one has been deemed a questionable and there is a "better source needed" mark. The 7th reference is the same as the 3rd reference and goes to an incorrect link but this one lacks a page number. So there are my problems with the sources.

Now onto the bad pictorial representation of the Moors. One of the pictures consists of Abd al-Rahman of Morocco who was a sultan of Morocco in the 19th century. How does this man have any correlation to the Moors when the Moors were medieval Muslim inhabitants? Not sure, cause he was a Moroccan in the 19th century, not the 12th century. The picture is completely extraneous. The next pictures I have a problem with are images that depict the Moors that came from paintings in 19th and 20th centuries. I'm just bewildered as to why exactly these pictures are here when we can use actual historical pictures of the Moors from Islamic Iberia that have much historicity and aren't ahistorical and can't possibly be seen as biased or POV editing. So as you can see I want make a decent amount of ramifications to this page and I can do it all in one edit, but would like to hear what other editors have to say first. 70.126.13.113 (talk) 08:24, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

• NOTE: Request for meatpuppets in-progress. [2] NYPA, dawg. 2601:B:B680:23:AD67:BFB0:C620:91E2 (talk) 12:53, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

So your edits are explained, What does that mean?

You said your edits are explained on the talk page. What does that mean? My edits are explained on the talk page also. So why POV push your agenda? And this habit of editing in one swoop, i.e. taking out ref, and adding in another ref is no protection against revert. B/c it is a trick to waste time. I will not sit down with every edit you do and pick out the good from the bad. Your pattern of editing is Single agenda, and disruptive as serious contributors to Wikipedia who have established this article are having their work erased by your poor grasp of wiki policy and good editing (which included proper sentence structures). And this INNOCENTS will not work this time around. You know what you are doing! You behave like a troll provoking a reaction. I will not waste time reading your endless nonsense over and over again and repeating rules to you.--Inayity (talk) 14:52, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Safest option Leave LEAD, Get agreement first

Please discuss any and all changes to any significant aspect of the lead before making changes. The discussion around these changes has already come and gone. By talk page the lead has been established and is stable. Discuss, get agreement, then make changes is the best policy.--Inayity (talk) 10:14, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

Please gain talk page agreement before changing the well balanced lead. --Inayity (talk) 17:24, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

I would like to make some changes to lead by merging paragraphs 3 and 4 as they state similar things, but also getting rid of contradictory sentences and adding some more detail. I can quote work by John Baker (biologist), arguably the greatest anthropologist ever Carleton S. Coon, National Geographic, and more scholarly reputable sources regarding the Moors. Some of the sources in the lead currently are a joke and have no validity, not to mention the information is formatted incorrectly by contradictory and anachronism. I can correct this information easily in one simple edit, but I would like to other editors sentiments on this first. ShawntheGod (talk) 06:24, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

The first source on this article is nonsensical. It comes from an orientalist with hardly any credentials and is not scholarly at all. Not only that I don't even see the point of the source either. I replaced it with the Maria source that we both agree on and specified a page and correct link to show the inhabitants more renowned as "Moors" were Muslims. ShawntheGod (talk) 07:13, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

STOP, you have no agreement to delete any ref, if you have a problem with a ref, that is for the talk page. And then WP:RSN. All such controversial edits will be reverted. your rationale against the ref is nonsensical beyond belief. And it has been discussed already--Inayity (talk) 08:12, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Revering because "no agreement" is not a logical reason for reversion and is not advised to revert because no consensus. What exact is the point of the ref by the self-published orientalist with no scholar or credentials Stanley Lane Poole there? How is that ref that says "The Story of the Moors in Spain. Stanley Lane-Poole, Arthur Gilman. "In ancient times, Africans in general were called Ethiopian; in medieval times most Africans were called Moors; in modern times some Africans were called Negroes." with no page reference even pertinent to that first part of the article? It is not relevant, at all. Also it is a self-published source coming from someone with hardly any credentials or scholarship. Also chill out, no reason to go crazy. Just discuss the source with me in an articulate and literate way. ShawntheGod (talk) 09:18, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

It is clear from your comments and your editing quality, replying to the above is not necessary.Take your concerns here WP:RSN. As per reverting you, it has been established (on this talk page) you are a POV pushing editor who uses various IP and meatpuppets. taking up time with extended illogical prolix text. It is a mild form of trolling and your account seems SINGLE PURPOSE. contribs --Inayity (talk) 11:13, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

POV pushing editor? What I am "pushing"? Enlighten me. My edits have changed over time and several of my recent edits have been accepted into the article. Various IP? I'm only using this account, no sock-puppetry. As for meat puppetry? Do you have any proof that I made those posts on 4chan? That site is well known for trolling, could have been you attempting to sabotage my edit consensus for all I know. My account is not "single purpose" either as I'm currently engaging in discourse on this topic, but have edited other ones also. Replying to the above is not necessary? So you just go against well known advise on Wikipedia and revert for no reason? Not very nice, would just like a concise answer, but you can give me a verbose one if you feel like it.

Either way, what is your judgement of my last major edit? I merged paragraph 3 and 4 by keeping the best information and integrating the textual, also coalesced other text of importance that seem germane with those paragraphs, so they to go with that part. I kept sources that we both concurred on and ones that are clearly reliable. I added another one for due weight too. I got rid of pictures of so called "Moors" not coming from the actual Moorish civilizations during their reign or real factual ones, so got rid of ahistorical pictures. I put an image up there of the modern day King of Morocco to go along with the "modern meanings" part of the word. I belief this editorial makes the article have much more historicity, realness, and organization. I also am not "trolling" in anyway, not even a mild form, my edits and posts are with earnest. ShawntheGod (talk) 14:26, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

If you have a problem with a ref and no one else does, please use either request for comments or WP:RSN. you are a disruptive editor and your ridiculous oodles of incoherent MAKE IT UP AS YOU GO text on the talk page are worrying. At least learn to write proper English in the articles and use ref properly. You have created a page to disruptive the quality of the article as your edit patters show nothing but conflict with other editors. if I disagree then why are you edit warring?--Inayity (talk) 14:48, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Over 3 reverts in 24 hours. I ask you what my POV is, you can't respond logically. You revert my edits without a logical reason and I already told you what my plans for an editorial were before the edit. I do use references properly, you apparently like OR Afrocentric ones. Your grammar is awful; learn to use punctuation by the way. ShawntheGod (talk) 14:59, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Where did you just come from that you come here telling people who do serious work on this article for years what your plan is. Get agreement for any of your controversial plans per Wikipedia rules. Is there something unclear about that? If your edits disagree, then do not go ahead with them! BTW, which editor supports any of your changes? No they call them semi-literate. [3]--Inayity (talk) 15:04, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

One example of total nonsense POV single focus editing

I will use one example for any other edit visiting of the nonsense being added to a quality article. The term "Moors" has been used to describe several historic and modern populations of Muslim people (Maria)

• The ref by Ornament makes absolutely no such statement. None whatsoever.
• The article already discusses the wide application of the term Moor, which is not exclusive to Muslim people. Yet here you come and contradict that with a POV agenda edit.
• Already you have been reverted by SEVERAL editors for this particular edit, yet you force it back into the article.

For Months you being pushing this POV, first under the WP:SPA Ip 70.126.19.148 and 70.126.13.113 where you went to great lengths against me, ALL backfired.--Inayity (talk) 15:14, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Can you please stop making so many redundant excessive topics/posts? I can't respond to your posts if you make a new one under a new topic every second. I'll converse with you under the "Depiction and Information involving Moors" one, thanks. ShawntheGod (talk) 15:35, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Please point me to the talk page rule which supports what you just said. Please start by doing that. Until then the charge of why your edits have been reverted is explained in technicolor above. As for good English I will make sure I continue to use it in all my actual edits to the article. --Inayity (talk) 16:03, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Okay, thank you. First off, what are you responding to with "please point me to the talk page rule which supports what you just said." part? Me asking you to stop making so many topics? It's easier for us to converse about the article if we remain on one topic, not various at a time. My reference by Ornament was referring to the fact the Moors were Muslim. I forgot to include my other article which refers to the fact that the term "Moors" generally got referred to by Europeans as to the North African people, it even mentions how back in the day the Romans would call the Berbers "Mauri" it was forgotten. The Ornament reference was showing how they were Muslim, that's all. "The article already discusses the wide application of the term Moor" it states "especially of Arab and African" descent and the African part is OR due to the fact the only source that even mentioned 'Black Moors' (you already said you meant black with African earlier in a post basically) supports that view on here is by an Afrocentrist author known for pseudohistory and is a bad source. I agree about the Arab and Berber part, not the Iberian or African part. The term "Moor" is applied to primarily Arabs and Berbers by all valid sources. That includes the two sources we agreed on (Maria and Richard) and it includes other valid sources online. The Moors were initially Arabs and Berbers, that is a known fact and an agreed one by me, you, and has been on this article forever too. Stating that the word "Moor" goes with Arab and Berbers primarily, is correct. The Moors initially came from North Africa and to be specific Morocco? Correct; you agreed on this earlier and other valid sources support this view. When you say "reverted by several editors" you're not referring to any recent edits, besides you. Not any on this account, stop mentioning so called "edits" that don't belong to me and come from awhile ago. This is a new editorial, new ramifications, not the same ones again and again. ShawntheGod (talk) 16:21, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Recent or Old, the issues is the same POV agenda. It could be from 10 years ago. No one has ever agreed to the edits I have marked as Controversial. NO ONE. And please read WP:SYNTHESIS. give us some credit, are you suggesting you are not the exact same person as from the good old days Mr. 70.126.13.113? I could be wrong the ip could have a twin with identical agenda's, identical English, identical typos, identical syntax and identical edit warring and POV pushing against the stable article. It is possible. And hedge your remarks it is not a Novel. 2000 words is over kill.--Inayity (talk) 16:31, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Another way to hedge your prolix ways is to only address the issue I have raised in this section. I am not interested in Afrocentrism, but the issue of POV pushing and misuse of a ref. Afrocentric ref is only one in the entire article. Only one.--Inayity (talk) 16:33, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Misuse of ref by me with the Ornament one was an accident, not intentional. I apologize and you say "I am not interested in Afrocentrism" as I'm not interested in it or any other form of subtle or overt tones of racialism such as Eurocentrism, Nordicism, Asiocentrism, etc, it's all garbage to me and involves distortion of history and more. I simply want the truth to be stated. ShawntheGod (talk) 16:57, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

If you seek truth then you have just admitted to making mistakes, my response has been to revert all of those mistakes, which include bad sentences, misuse of ref, and poor placement of content. In this entire long article I see one ref to an Afrocentric, yet that has disturbed you. If you have a ligit problem with a ref you will gain no fans by adding a personal opinions about Poole. The issue can be filed at RS noticeboard, it can also be discussed in specific terms. As it relates to Poole, you have given us nothing but a personal opinion. I see NOTHING in the ref that is not 100% true. Moors was used in the medieval period, negro in the later to refer to all/different groups of Africans.--Inayity (talk) 17:12, 27 January 2014 (UTC)