Talk:Monmouthshire (historic)

general geographic area

" remains in use as a general geographic area " might imply it is shown on maps. which it isn't. we need to make it clear it's not shown on maps. Morwen - Talk 11:28, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't directly imply that - it implies that people use it when referring to the area. There are plenty of things that don't appear on modern OS maps, such as Berkshire, Merseyside, &c that people may use to refer to an area, and plenty of things that do appear on maps, such as Caerphilly, Halton, &c that people don't use! In any case it depends where you source your map data from! Owain (talk) 11:45, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

English status

I have added the English traditional counties box to the page, as Monmouthshire's status was ambiguous before the creation of Gwent. If you have anty issues with this, feel free to raise them here. Marky-Son 14:24, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

The only problem being that Monmouthshire isn't listed in the box! Lozleader 14:39, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

I have now added it. Lozleader 14:41, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I didn't know how to do it. I thought it appeared by magic for a few minutes there. Marky-Son 14:57, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Monmouthshire doesn't appear in the English traditional counties box of any other county so why add it here?

I have removed it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jongleur100 (talk • contribs) 00:29, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

So what do the locals think?

I find Monmouthshire's ambiguous status weirdly fascinating - although one thing missing amidst the legal detail is any mention of what the people who actually live there think about the issue. Are there any published facts or figures suggesting what proportion of the population think of themselves as Welsh or English or are bothered about which they are classed under? The dry academic study of the issue is interesting in itself but without the views of the populace it isn't clear if this is just an interesting if obscure point of law or something a bit more vital. It's easy to understand people liking or not liking how the place they live is classified or governed; it's less easy to imagine them not being quite sure what it's supposed to be classed as! -- Jellyman 22:59, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

There's some ambiguity in some parts of the county, but generally this is no doubt that this is Wales. You can roughly divide the county into three parts: the Monmouth/Abergavenny/Usk planes to the east; Newport and surrounding areas; and the Rhymney/Islwyn/Ebbw Vale Valleys areas.

I'm sure that there are plenty of people in Monmouth/Abergavenny that believe that they are in England. There may even be some in Newport/Cwmbran, although my experience of people there is that they consider themselves Welsh, albeit 'Anglicised' Welsh. They certainly don't speak Welsh, and often don't even pronounce the names of the towns they live in in the Welsh way, but come 6 Nations time and there's no doubt that they're supporting Wales not England. The Valleys areas though are unmistakably Welsh and in many ways define our notion of Wales. The idea of towns like Tredegar, Ebbw Vale, Blaenavon, Abertillary or Pontypool being part of England, or of Neil Kinnock, Aneurin Bevan or the Pontypool front-row being Englishmen would be a strange notion to any person that I've met that lived there.

I'm not sure that there has ever been a poll, or any referencable evidence that would confirm this but I have no doubt that it is correct. Anyone, English or Welsh, will tell you that if you go over the Severn Bridge you are going from England to Wales.--RJP1979 14:19, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I am Newport born and bred and I am Welsh. One must take into account the majority (I think) of people in the "new Monmouthshire" were actually born in England, compare this to Blaenau Gwent which is 92% Welsh-born, the highest in Wales and Newport is somewhere inbetween.

I have met a couple of people from Newport that consider themselves English, but this isn't the case with the majority. It may be a generational thing, those born before the 70's are more likely to consider themselves English but my father still considers himself Welsh. There is definately dislike distrust for the Welsh Assembly from many people in the county, but this doesn't mean they're not proud to be Welsh. The fact our 1st language is English doesn't mean much because it's the same in other parts of Wales that have always been considered Welsh. Marky-Son 15:55, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Not sure if the English Democrats Party vote in the assembly elections is an accurate reflection:

• Newport East 2.2%
• Newport West 2.7%
• Monmouth 2.7%[1]

They didn't stand in Islwyn, Blaenau Gwent, Torfaen or which ever Cardiff constituency includes the bit east of the Rumney.

They got 0.9% in South Wales East.

Lozleader 09:19, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

"also polling far less than Plaid Cymru which received between 7.1% and 10.4% of the vote in the same constituencies."

Someone removed the level of the plaid vote it was clearly relevant so I restored it in that if the level of the English democrat support has any relevance to the question then so does the numbers voting Plaid in the same election. --84.13.77.172 23:21, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

One thing the article doesn't mention is that the town of Monmouth itself was part of England prior to the Norman invasion. Infact it's been part of England as long as other places such as Northumberland have. Whilst parts of Monmouthshire might be Welsh, the area around Monmouth itself is and has been English for a very long time. It's not listed in the Domesday Book for nothing. Perhaps the article could relfect that parts of Monmouthshire were England and parts were Wales and they ended up being combined together over time into one county.--Gothicform 05:34, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

In 1549 Edward VI granted a Charter to Monmouth which was described as being "in the Marches of Wales". That makes it Welsh.Jongleur100 (talk) 08:28, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Is there one single view?

Often a rejoinder to "Monmouthshire is historically in England" is "try telling that to someone in a pub in Newport" (although historically given the different English & Welsh licensing laws, said person might prefer it to be in England when the pubs are closed in Wales!) or in Blackwood, but it's telling that these are in the west of the county.

A friend has just written a piece on this and come to the conclusion that the east and west of the county have more in common (culturally, politically etc..) with their neighbours over the county border than with each other - the west is heavily Welsh, the east is mixed. A copy is in a note on Facebook: http://qmul.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=4973591039&pwstdfy=e27a6e2ef8cd5c8a7de2bed68957dd84&ref=nf

Incidentally it wasn't just the Oxford circuit that made Monmouthshire "English" - the county was given the status of an English county by Henry VIII and so had two MPs at Westminster like English counties, not the single one the Welsh counties got, and the higher taxation for England. Timrollpickering 11:32, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Dual Status

The motto of Monmouthshire county council translated into English is "Faithful to both", which of course is reference to its double allegience to England and Wales (as are the lion and dragon; the leek and the rose which also appear on its amorial bearings).

So...

I don't know if its still the case but if you were born in Monmouthshire you could either play for Wales or England.

Deletion

I have deleted an addition at the bottom of the page that was incredibly POV, mentioning things like the 'cock-up' of 1974 and other statements. To use a POV phrase myself it was total drivel. Darkmind1970 (talk) 10:51, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Subjective bias in article

You can't argue that 'As Monmouthshire was dealt with separately it cannot be taken to be a shire "within the said Country of Dominion of Wales" This is opinion and not fact, and this sentence should not have been included in an encyclopedia, so I have removed it.

There are many people, like me, who believe that although Monmouthshire was administered separately from the rest of Wales it was still a Welsh county.

The statement ignores the fact that Cheshire was included in the Welsh legal system - but has never been considered to be a Welsh county.

The Chester Circuit of the Great Sessions of Wales covered the four counties of Chester, Denbigh, Flint and Montgomery.

This lasted from the Laws in Wales Act 1535 until the nineteenth century. By the Law Terms Act 1830 the entire judicial system of Wales was reorganised. An assize circuit consisting of the counties of Chester, Flint, Montgomery, Merioneth, Carnarvon, Anglesey and Denbigh was constituted.

So Cheshire was 'dealt with separately' from the rest of England, but still remained English.

See : http://www.oakdalevillage.net/history3.html Jongleur100 (talk) 10:02, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Typical english argument; can only take, and never admit that they have taken. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.180.97.243 (talk) 00:13, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Old maps and atlases

According to D.P.M.Michael, The Mapping of Monmouthshire, ISBN 0-906570-18-2, 1985, a number of atlases published between the 17th and 19th centuries included Monmouthshire within England (although most covered both England and Wales). In particular, the 1821 A Complete Atlas of the English Counties by Thomas Dix and William Darton included a map which had the following text:- "Monmouthshire was originally considered as a part of Wales and continued to be till towards the end of the reign of King Charles II when the Judges began to hold the assizes at Monmouth, since which time Monmouthshire has been always reckoned an English County. The people use the Welch (sic) language, but the English tongue is coming more into use." Now, there are many good reasons not to use 1821 sources (which is why I'm not adding this to the article), but does anyone know specifically what happened to change the situation "towards the end of the reign of King Charles II" (which was in 1685)? Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:30, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

That's interesting: Lewis in 1848 seems to confirm and expand on this:
This system of feudal jurisprudence was continued here, as in the other Welsh marches, until Henry VIII. in 1535 abolished the government of the lords marchers, divided Wales into twelve shires, and included Monmouthshire among the counties of England. But as regards the administration of justice, it was considered a Welsh county until the reign of Charles II., when it was first included in the Oxford circuit; and even after that time it seems to have been affected in some degree by the ancient border law, as the jurisdiction of the supreme court of the lords marchers, usually held at Ludlow, in Shropshire, was not absolutely and finally abolished until the 1st of William and Mary, when the gentry and inhabitants within the principality of Wales petitioned for its suppression.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Lozleader (talk • contribs) 19:43, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

I've just begun this new article which hopefully starts to shed some more light on it, but doesn't explain the significance of Charles II. More un-OR needed I think! Ghmyrtle (talk) 20:14, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

In 'An Historical Atlas of Wales from Early to Modern Times' (Faber & Faber 1951) ISBN 0-571-09976-9 William Rees includes Monmouthshire in Wales on every map from 1536 on. In Plate 57 he distinguishes between the Welsh counties which belong to the Circuits of the Great Sessions and the one county that doesn't, Monmouthshire. But he still puts it in Wales. Jongleur100 (talk) 22:47, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

And so does this 1645 map, where Monmouthshire is included within Wales. Llywelyn2000 (talk) 20:36, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Ambiguity over Welsh status - separate article needed?

Over half of this article now consists of information about the historical "ambiguity" of Monmouthshire's status as between Wales and England. Does anyone think those sections should now be separated out to form a separate article? Of course, if it is, there would still need to be a summary left in this article, so it could be counter-productive. I don't have a strong view either way, but simply raise the question in order to hear other opinions. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:14, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

I was asking myself the same question. Is the England/Wales question the most important thing about historic Monmouthshire, or is it getting too much WP:WEIGHT? I think it might be. Lozleader (talk) 10:42, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Possibly. However, it is an issue which can and has led to edit wars and general unpleasantness on other pages, such as this one and this one, as well as worldwide curiosity, which justify a careful and balanced NPOV historical overview (which personally I think we are now getting towards). Although perhaps a specialist concern, I can see that it would be at least as worthy of an article as many, many others. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:48, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

There has been a definite improvement in the England/Wales content in this article over the last few months. Once upon a time it just boldly stated that an order in council had transferred it from one country to the other in 1967, which turned out to be totally withouit basis! I can see a case for the "ambiguity" part to be split out, leaving this article deal with the history, demography, geography of the place. What you would call the new article is another matter :-( Lozleader (talk) 11:02, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Lozleader as regards to WP:WEIGHT. Shorten to a neutral summary based on recent, reliable sources. As it stands it's very biased; all recent historians agree that pre-20c politics Monmouthshire was in Wales in all aspects other than administration of laws. Llywelyn2000 (talk) 20:43, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

"...other than administration of laws." That is a major exception - it explains, for example, the term "Wales and Monmouthshire". And, "all recent historians" is crying out for a . Incidentally, it might have been better to start a new discussion rather than tagging on to one from almost 13 years ago. Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:15, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Original border?

I'm not sure if it warrants any mention in the article, being before the formation of the Welsh Marches but, as Fred Hando notes in his 1944 The Pleasant Land of Gwent, "In the Doomsday Survey ... land west of the Usk, except Caerleon, is not included, showing that up to 1085, William's authority was not there acknowledged." Martinevans123 (talk) 22:35, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Welsh language

I've removed the following sentence from the lead: "Linguistically however, Monmouthshire was predominantly Welsh speaking until the mid and late 19th century, with the uplands (areas such as Rhymney and Beaufort) retaining their strong Welsh identities well into the 1900s." It may be generally true - though it certainly was not true of the south-east of the county, at least - but, more importantly so far as the article is concerned, it is unreferenced, and not appropriate for the lead. If references can be found for the statement, or for another statement on the same topic, I suggest it should be added to the main article text, and then, perhaps, summarised for the lead. The lead is meant to summarise the main article, not set out additional information. Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:44, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

The sentence did not refer to the south-east of the county, but to the whole county. It is a true statement which you can reference to this book by Prof. G J Williams. Llywelyn2000 (talk) 20:53, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

The cover of that book does not suggest that it is a neutral source - it was published by a political party - and the statement by the author (p.3) that "I am not a professional historian" also sheds some doubt on its reliability as a source. Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:20, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

PS: This article should also be consistent with the maps at History of the Welsh language - seemingly sourced from authoritative publications - which show that, though the Welsh language remained important (perhaps even predominant - it's unclear) in the western part of Monmouthshire through to the late 19th century (but not later), it had generally disappeared from the eastern part of the county (including such towns as Monmouth and Chepstow) much earlier than that. So, it's difficult, and unhelpful to readers, to attempt to summarise the position in Monmouthshire as a whole in a few words. Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:16, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

I agree. That's a very good point. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:41, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

A 1900 take on the England/Wales debate

Tout, Thomas Frederick (1900). "The Welsh shires, a study in constitutional history". Y Cymmrodor. 9 (2): 201–226: 223.

It is often discussed whether or not Monmouthshire is a Welsh county. The answer is both Yes and No. It is Welsh in the sense that it was created out of Welsh lands, and that its inhabitants are largely Welsh by stock, if not always in tongue. But in these senses a good deal of Herefordshire and some parts of Shropshire, and even a part of Gloucestershire, are Welsh. It is not Welsh inasmuch as the only legal distinction between England and Wales after 1536 was the separate Welsh judicial system, in which it was not included. But now that that has been abolished, the legal distinctions between "England" and "Wales" are so minute, that the legal aspect of the question is of verbal rather than of real importance. Still, as a matter of law, Monmouthshire is not in Wales.

Of course, the law has changed a good deal since 1900. jnestorius^(talk) 16:59, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

Isn't this sufficiently covered in the current text? The 1900 quote doesn't seem to me to add anything. Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:18, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

I don't think this point is covered: "in these senses a good deal of Herefordshire and some parts of Shropshire, and even a part of Gloucestershire, are Welsh". All I see in the article is "Some lordships were annexed to existing counties in England". Has anyone seriously suggested these annexed areas in any sense remained (or perhaps even remain today) part of Wales; or conversely has anyone in the Monmouthshire-is-English camp raised them as an analogy? jnestorius^(talk) 15:57, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

It depends what you mean by "seriously". We have an article on the Welsh Lost Lands, and I'm sure there are some people (though not many) who would like to claim those areas as "rightly" part of Wales now. But then, how far do you go back? This map shows the area populated by Welsh-speaking people until about the 7th century, when events like the Battle of Chester drove back the Welsh and separated them from the Cymry in Cumberland (hence the name), etc.. On the other side you have had groups like the English Democrats trying to claim, without any notable success, that Monmouthshire should be "returned" to England. But, these are pretty much fringe views, and I'm not sure they need to be covered in this article which is specifically about Monmouthshire. Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:25, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

(Side note: it seems Cumberland lacks any information on its etymology? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:30, 4 September 2018 (UTC))

(Now sorted.) Ghmyrtle (talk) 18:28, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

As an interesting side note, The Mini Oxford Encyclopaedic Dictionary 1986 ed. describes Monmouthshire as "Traditional English county on Welsh border N. of Severn estuary, since April 1974 the main part of the Welsh county of Gwent with smaller parts in Mid Glamorgan and South Glamorgan". I wonder how much of that "(was Welsh, later) was English, now Welsh" is shown elsewhere. When did Enc. Brit. stop calling it an English county? It would be interesting to compare the articles between those two editions. --Inops (talk) 21:18, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

Eh? "... with smaller parts in Mid Glamorgan and South Glamorgan"?? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:21, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

"[Gwent contained all of Monmouthshire] Less the parish of St Mellons and urban districts of Bedwas and Machen, Rhymney and part of Bedwellty..." (from Gwent (county)). E.g. Aberbargoed went to Mid Glamorgan, and Rumney went to South Glamorgan. --Inops (talk) 21:42, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

Oh yes, Gwent. I thought you/Mini Oxford meant "Monmouthshire". Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:50, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

The text of The Mini Oxford Encyclopaedic Dictionary looks to me as though someone has taken an old text ("Traditional English county on Welsh border N. of Severn estuary"), and simply tacked on a few words in an attempt to update it. Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:14, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

Me too. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:17, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

Owain Glyndwr

I removed the section below:

Owain Glyndwr exercised considerable power over Monmouthshire during his War of Independence in the early 15th century. A key victory for Owain was at the Battle of Craig y Dorth in August 1404, where English forces were forced to flee back behind the fortified bridge in Monmouth. However, this proved to be the pinnacle of Owain's power. Consecutive defeats at the Battle of Grosmont and the Battle of Pwll Melyn (Usk) witnessed large numbers of Welsh casualties, including Owain's son, Gruffudd. Despite a brief Franco-Welsh campaign along the English border, Owain's power was all but lost in Monmouthshire by 1405. The submission of Anglesey, Ceredigion and Glamorgan to royal rule in 1406 marked the end of any serious threat to royal power in Monmouthshire. Furthermore, the more conciliatory attitude of King Henry V (who was born in Monmouth) after 1413 towards the Welsh helped to reconcile Anglo-Welsh relations in the following decades.

This may be accurate - though the sources are not the best, and the citations are not correctly formatted - but more importantly they refer to a period before Monmouthshire was created. So far as I can tell, there is no article on History of Monmouthshire - as an area - though perhaps one should be created. The best I can find, for the period concerned, is Welsh Marches - but that obviously covers a much wider area, and does not cover the entirety of the area's history. Any thoughts? Ghmyrtle (talk) 20:03, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

References

Might be usefully added to Cwmcarvan, or even to Usk. But I agree, not "Monmouthshire" at that time. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:37, 15 July 2021 (UTC) p.s. I think Cwmcarvan may be KJP1's neck of the woods? Martinevans123 (talk) 20:37, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

20th century country houes, perhaps, but medieval battles are a little outside my period. That said, it should definitely go somewhere, as I think it was a reasonably important set-to. There doesn’t appear to be a mention in Glyndwr Rising, rather oddly. KJP1 (talk) 18:29, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

If we can believe that source, of course. I wonder is there anything in Bradney. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:18, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

I shall have a look. RCAHMW sounds a bit dubious, [2]. KJP1 (talk) 10:03, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Bradney covers it in The Hundred of Trellech: "A prominent feature in the parish is Graig-y-dorth (the rock of the loaf). This rises to the height of 785 feet and on the ordnance map is marked Site of battle, A.D. 1404. This refers to a battle won by Owen Glyndwr against the English, but the date is more probably 1402. It was in 1402 that Owen with a force of 30,000 overthrew the castles of Usk, Caerleon and Newport, and fired the towns, doing similarly throughout Wales". Of course, Bradney wasn't always spot-on in the accuracy stakes! KJP1 (talk) 11:23, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

I’d forgotten this conversation. There is now a little in Cwmcarvan. KJP1 (talk) 11:26, 13 April 2022 (UTC)