Talk:Monmouth/Archive 1

Pronunciation of Monmouth

I don't agree that the majority of people in Monmouth pronounce it Mun-Muth... its Mon-Muth. Sorry, good article otherwise. 212.85.13.68 13:16, 3 October 2006 (UTC)James

When people do say 'Mun-muth' it is in an attempt imitate the local more anglicised pronunciation. I doubt if this is derived from a welsh root as its welsh name is Trefynwy, meaning the town of Mynwy, and it would be strange for a name of welsh origin to be used which is different from the welsh name (unless in contraction - "Abergavenny"/"Abergafenni" to "Y Fenni"). There is no word "mydd" in Welsh ("Aber" usually describes places on a rivermouth, making Abermynwy), and if there was it would not result in 'Mun-muth' but 'Mun-meathe' (as in to breathe). Hebog 23:05, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I wondered whether the "mun" pronunciation was an upper-class way of speaking, like Ponsonby being pronounced "punsunby".--Oxonian2006 (talk) 19:29, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Um, if we're talking about the name of the river it's Monnow in English and Mynwy (mutates to Fynwy after Tre) in Welsh. Surely that first Welsh syllable rhymes with English "Fun" not English "Fon"? So yes, Mun-Muth would be a Welsh slant on an English word, since that is the way the river name is pronounced in Welsh? Majority use is another issue, of course. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:46, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Speaking as someone who grew up in Monmouth from an early age, Mon (the same as gone) muth (the same as buff) is probably the closest, the only people to pronounce it Mon Mouth are American tourists and I've never anyone say Mun Muth or Mun Mouth. Hope this helps 94.174.33.26 (talk) 23:02, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

the pronunciation 'Mun muth' is a ‘shibboleth’ which is a word or system used often by a group of people who find themselves in a minority and wish to distinguish themselves as different, better perhaps, to the general populous. It’s an interesting area of social science and worthy of a little study. Immediate upon meeting anyone in the area one may assume their social background (or that to which they would most like to be aligned) simply by the way in which they say the word. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.147.31.149 (talk) 08:28, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

This is probably a correct assessment. In the 1950s/early 60s Monmouth School was known as Monmouth not Munmouth. However at the time it was a Direct Grant school and as such carried a stigma common to this category of school, which was largely funded by the state school system, yet totally unjustified as they generally outperformed Public Schools and included numerous notable ancient school foundations e.g.Magdalen College School.It was and still is called Munmouth school by many ex Public School boys, which rather proves the shibboleth.

In the absence of a good source we should probably not say which pronunciation is used where. However, there are clearly two alternatives. ((( comment on previous sentence: One may have AN alternative but not two .. that would be choices))) I will change the lead to:

• Monmouth (/ˈmɒnməθ/ MON-məth or /ˈmənməθ/ MƏN-məth; Welsh: Trefynwy meaning "town on the Monnow")

This is based on my assessment that the two vowels in the 'Mun-muth' pronunciation are the same. The issue is not discussed in Monmouthshire, where it also applies. Verbcatcher (talk) 20:28, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

Please consider the possibility that your "assessment" is incorrect. Because it is. Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:26, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

Plans for an FA

I've been doing some reading about Wikipedia, and I'd like to make "Monmouth" a featured article. Obviously it needs a lot of expansion and work. Here are the headings that I think would make a good article:

• Geography
• Politics (including "is Monmouth Welsh?")
• Demographics
• History
• Culture (e.g. Monmouthshire Show, Festival, etc. and media)
• Tourist sites (naval temple, Monnow Bridge, Agincourt Square)
• Architecture (not sure about this one)
• People of interest (with short summaries)
• External links
• References

Any comments? Gwenllian 20:45, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

• I think you should include something about the Haberdashers' schools there (Monmouth School, Monmouth Girls' School, etc). Benbristol 16.55, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Can I draw your attention to Wikipedia:GLAM/MonmouthpediA we are working hard on increasing the amount and quality of articles around Monmouth, which can referenced in the main Monmouth page. Mrjohncummings (talk) 23:09, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Welsh Name

I have deleted the statement that Trefynwy is modern. It has had a fact-flag for 2 months with no response. A few minutes research found a 1868 reference giving the name and saying it's "ancient" (the "National Gazetteer").

Here's a link, although it's spelt Trefynwye in the Gazetteer, I'm assuming that's and Anglicized mis-spelling. --Rhyswynne (talk) 10:54, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Note to unregistered editor

When adding material, e.g. to Monmouth, could you please try to make sure that it is properly referenced, otherwise there is a danger that it will be deleted. It would also be very helpful if you could register, so that other editors can discuss your changes with you! But thanks for all the work you're doing. Let me know if you need any help or advice. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:58, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

I'd agree that the edits you have made so far have all been very useful. I'd also encourage you to register, although I suppose editors may have a variety of reasons for not doing so. Even if you don't register, however, I'd also urge you to add a brief summary of each edit so that your work is clearer to those who don't know your edit history. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:36, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Notable persons

The problem of unregistered editors (or one editor?) adding masses of unreferenced (but quite possibly accurate) material to this section is continuing. As well as being unreferenced, it is duplicating (or perhaps contradicting - I haven't checked) the biographical articles which is where this information should be held. The structure of the Monmouth article should meet these guidelines. The current text is unbalanced because there is too much text on "notable persons", and other sections are missing. If the editor (or editors) responsible doesn't respond to this message, I propose deleting - or copying into the appropriate articles - the excess text in this article. What do others think? Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:25, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

I certainly agree. Simply the name or, at most, one short sentence should suffice. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:32, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Monmouth and the Chartists

There is a "further reading" section with one entry: Harrison, David J. Monmouth and the Chartists. Perhaps someone can cntact Mr. Harrison for verification of what precisely this "publication" is; it is certainly not listed in any 'normal' filing sources such the British Library, "Books in Print" catalogue or any on-line bookstore. I have not yet removed the reference, but will do so if not verified shortly--TTKK (talk) 09:30, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

It seems to be a leaflet booklet - [1]. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:38, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, to me it looks like a large leaflet in the picture and that is how it's described! From the write-up at that site I'd guess it's a very interesting and reliable leaflet too. There seems to be no reason why it shouldn't be included in "further reading" but surely there are other publications, whicb relate exclusively to Monmouth, that should be added here? Monmouth itself is linked to Chartism only because of the infamous trial. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:00, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Ah, that's what I thought at first - but if you read the article he has actually written a booklet, "Monmouth and the Chartists", which is available locally and which is different to the town trail leaflet shown in the picture.... ""The successful conclusion of the Crimean war in 1856 led to a grant of full pardons to political prisoners," writes David Harrison in his Monmouth and the Chartists booklet (£3). Supported by the Monmouth Field and History Society and Monmouth Archaeological Society it is available from bookshops and the museum." Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:48, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, in that case, it sounds even better. I also have a private address from which to obtain a copy, so I may try to get one. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:12, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

But as you well know, Wikipedia is a global phenomenon: Reading this in Finnish Lapland, mention of "a booklet, available locally" doesn't help. An ISBN number would be good, or at the very least mention of who has publsihed it; perhaps you can add these!--TTKK (talk) 09:13, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

There's someone local to you who seems to be able to get hold of most things, I think... Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:01, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

As far as I know this booklet has been published privately by the author without an ISBN, in which case any reliable secondary sources, such as that forest-and-wye-today.co.uk link, might be equally or even more useful(?) Martinevans123 (talk) 12:27, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

I now have the 32 page book - it does not have any publishers' details (nor any references!), so indeed it looks as if it has been published privately. Interesting though. Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:24, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Pronunciation

Under Etymology it says 'Deeper into Wales the town is often pronounced as Mun-muth', which is perfectly correct. However, I wonder exactly how a casual reader would interpret 'Deeper'. Cardiff? Carmarthen, or possibly Fishguard? One has only to travel 20-odd miles from Monmouth to Pontypool to hear this pronunciation, and as someone who was brought up in the Western valleys of the county I still cringe when I hear the 'Mon' pronunciation of the historic county rather than the 'Mun' which is more familiar to my ears. Has anyone an idea how this could be rephrased to reflect its true geographical reach? ♦ Jongleur¹⁰⁰ ♦ ^talk 14:36, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Given that Monmouth is only one or two miles inside the border, virtually everywhere in Wales counts as "deeper". Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:51, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Then perhaps it should be rephrased to say that the 'Mun' pronunciation is used everwhere in Wales except in the anglicised areas around the town itself. ♦ Jongleur¹⁰⁰ ♦ ^talk 14:58, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Umm... well, that section needs revision anyway as the etymology of the name is clearer than is suggested. If you wanted to be contentious, you could say "the anglicised areas...", or even suggest that Monmouth town (more so than the rest of Monmouthshire) was in many ways - historically, culturally and ecclesiastically - substantially "English", and point out that the "Mon.." pronunciation is used in England as well. Or, you could decide to do the minimum change necessary, and use words like "In most of Wales...". Your call! Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:13, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm not trying to be contentious at all, which is why I asked for other views here; but I am 'deeply' concerned that the article contains such an imprecise and unencyclopedic phrase as 'Deeper into Wales'. 'In most of Wales' would suit me fine, but I'll wait for further responses before I change it. ♦ Jongleur¹⁰⁰ ♦ ^talk 15:28, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

'In most of Wales' sounds fine to me, although a reference to support this might be difficult to find (?) Martinevans123 (talk) 19:14, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Monmouthpedia

Hi

I just wanted to bring your attention to Wikipedia:GLAM/MonmouthpediA, the first Wikipedia:GLAM project to cover a whole town, creating Wikipedia articles on interesting and notable places, people, artefacts, flora, fauna and other things in Monmouth and will display QR codes that use QRpedia where appropriate to deliver the articles to users, in alternative languages including Welsh.

Many thanks

Mrjohncummings (talk) 23:41, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the tip. I would recommed anyone interested to have a listen to the "Good Morning Wales" radio clip on iplayer here. It's only 5 minutes (from 07:54:20 to 07:59:20), but it explains it all very neatly. But does this mean Monmouth now gets plastered with QR codes !? All I want(ed) for Christmas, it seems, was a Cymdeithas yr Iai-phone. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:36, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

I see that Monmouthpedia has been removed from the lede. This obviously isnt a key item. However it has had substantial coverage in Local TV/Radio, the techie press, magazines, Monmouthshire.gov.uk and will be in the Guardian shortly. I would have thought that might merit a mention? But it should be a decision from an unbiased editor. Victuallers (talk) 23:08, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

See WP:RECENT. I'm perfectly happy for there to be a mention of Monmouthpedia in the article text, now that there are reliable independent references - indeed, I was perfectly happy for a paragraph (tagged) to be included previously, but it was removed here. It is not appropriate, in my view, (and contrary to WP:LEAD) to include a sentence in the lead - which is intended to summarise the whole article - when there is no mention of Monmouthpedia in the article itself. And, even if Monmouthpedia is to be mentioned in the article, I would question whether it is of sufficient significance to Monmouth for it to be mentioned in the lead - which would imply that Monmouthpedia is more noteworthy than, for example, the bridge or Henry V, neither of which are mentioned in the lead at present. In my view, Monmouthpedia is just not that important in the real world - we are writing an encyclopedia here, not trying to publicise ourselves. If we are really interested in promoting Monmouthpedia, and promoting interest in Wikipedia among Monmouth residents, a much better start, in my view, would be to make a collective effort to improve the content of this - frankly, very poor - article about the town. Ghmyrtle (talk) 23:43, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

PS: I've now changed things round a little - added a referenced para on Monmouthpedia, reinstated a brief ref to it in the lead, and added some substance to the lead. There is a great deal of work that needs to be done to bring this article up to an acceptable standard, and I hope that those involved in Monmouthpedia will focus on that work - and not only on simply creating a large number of new articles on detailed aspects of the town. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:08, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Good changes - thanks. Hopefully with your encouragement more editors will want to work on top priority articles like this one. This is important as translators are likely to arrive (In Feb I hope) and take the text as it stands in English and use that as a basis for other languages. Changing those derived versions later will be very difficult. You can't change people's motivations, I'm just pleased that we have these new editors whom want to learn how to make a better Wikipedia. With our encouragement - they will. Victuallers (talk) 13:56, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Llanrothal

The article had this in the Notable People section:

• Philip Evans, Jesuit priest and martyr, was born in the town and based at the nearby Catholic seminary at The Cwm in Llanrothal.

But there is no mention of Llanrothal in the Evans amd Lloyd article itself, nor indeed in the reference that's provided for this entry. So I have removed mention of the seminary in the hope that someone can find a good source. Thanks to the amazingly industrious Peter I. Vardy, we now have an article for St John the Baptist's Church, Llanrothal but as yet there is no article for the village itself. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:50, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Hi Martin, I found this ref which is only a snippet to a book. There are several but none are online. Lots of blogs but many are quoting Wikipedia. However I think this ref at least confirms his association with Llanrothal. (Oh I agree Peter Vardy is very productive!) Victuallers (talk) 14:22, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

My word, that is a snippet. Without seeing the whole paragraph, I'm not even sure what it means, or if it provides evidence of a link. The passage is on page 687 of Meic Stephens' (ed) 1998 The New Companion to the Literature of Wales, University of Wales Press. ISBN 0-7083-1383-3. So hopefully not a book that's too difficult to get hold of (by someone in a Department of Welsh Literature) I'd guess. I see it's used as a ref in John Davies (Mallwyd) and in White Book of Rhydderch, if that's any help! Might be worth asking User:Lyndafis to have a look? Martinevans123 (talk) 22:15, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Have now added a note at that editor's Talk page. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:38, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Monmouthshire Show

Their web site says show was started in 1857 by 8th Duke of Beufort and John Rolls, not "Sir Charles Morgan MP" <--- and when was "Sir Charles Morgan MP" born - cos I can find Charles Octavius Morgan MP and Sir Charles Morgan (who ran a cattle show in Tredegar). I cannot find a reliable source for this MP guy. Removed this detail anyway as we have an article on the show. Victuallers (talk) 23:17, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

War memorial

Surprised to see no mention in the article of the War Memorial, in St James' Square, with its ancient Indian bean tree. e.g. [2]. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:36, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

I would suggest that the best way forward would be an article on the square - which would cover the buildings, tree, and memorial. Ghmyrtle (talk) 17:38, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

That seems a very good idea. The whole square looks very photogenic. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:53, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Symbols of Monmouth

Does the fair city of Monmouth possess a coat of arms, and perhaps a nice flag to match it? --Oop (talk) 23:51, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

The coat of arms is here. However, I don't know what licences are required for us to be able to use it. The motto, Monemus et munimus, means "Let us watch and ward". It would be interesting to know the history of the coat of arms and motto. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:13, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

A picture of the arms under "fair use" is possible. We also have brilliant co-operation from the town & council so if required we could get a better image and a better permission. I'll ask? Victuallers (talk) 09:42, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

The cap.

Really? That's from the 16th century? also can someone please correct the link to "Monmouth cap" it's broken in the caption. You'll know why if you click it. --Τασουλα (talk) 23:25, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

My wife who is a textiles person didnt believe it either. I contacted Monmouth Museum and confirmed that this is a picture of a really old cap and not a modern reproduction. Victuallers (talk) 09:40, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

I've corrected the caption, per Tasoula. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:57, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

Thank you Ghmyrtle, I had no idea what was causing that so couldn't correct it. And Victuallers that's really great :) thanks to you and your wife for the info. And the museum I guess. (Wow, really? Where was that cap? Hidden away from sunlight no doubt...) --Τασουλα (talk) 17:27, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

And moths {it's a non-moth cap, after all). (Sorry....). Someone changed "Monmouth cap" in the (ahem) caption, to "Monmouth Cap" - which redirects to the section of the Monmouth cap article that is actually about the place called Monmouth Cap. I changed the (ahem) capital back. I hope that's clear (ish)..... Capital! Ghmyrtle (talk) 17:33, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

Barnstar for most painful series of puns? That just caps it all! Capital indeed. Martinevans123 (talk)

Distance from Cardiff and Distance from London

Both of these seem to me to be irrelevent in the intro section of the Monmouth article. See similar debate on the Newport talk page Pwimageglow (talk) 14:45, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

This is an international encyclopædia. Readers from outside the UK will not necessarily know anything about UK geography. Distance from London is a valid and useful piece of information. Owain (talk) 08:35, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Owain about including the mileage to London, and also think that the distance to Cardiff - as the capital of Wales - should be included. Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:06, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

This is a discussion about Monmouth, not Newport. But I agree with Owain and Ghmyrtle. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:53, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

The case is weaker for Monmouth than it is for Cardiff, Newport or Chepstow. However, given the inability of the English to think in terms of anything except London, I'd support keeping it here. Andy Dingley (talk) 10:31, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

(That's partly true because those three are all just "down the end of the M4". That's quite easy - even for English people. Ouch.) Martinevans123 (talk) 10:49, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

See my Chepstow comment about trying to get Londoners to our steampunk festival! Andy Dingley (talk) 11:04, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

1610 Map of Monmouth by John Speed

".... roll over the map key to link to the places listed." - is it just me? Martinevans123 (talk) 15:38, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

Apparently not. Didn't work for me either. I've removed that part of the caption. If someone gets it working it can be re-instated. Daicaregos (talk) 16:51, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

I have fixed it. It appears that a previous editor misunderstood the coordinates system, see Extension:ImageMap. I have moved the targets to the objects in the map instead of in the key, and have added a few more targets. It works nicely with a touch screen. Verbcatcher (talk) 13:48, 1 January 2017 (UTC)