Talk:Men Going Their Own Way/Archive 6

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The media coverage section

I have moved it here, lock, stock and barrel:

Media coverage

The MGTOW phenomenon has been described in detail in books by writers such as Helen Smith,^[1] Kay Hymowitz,^[2] Philip Zimbardo,^[3] and in other media sources, including the Sunday Times,^[4] and Vice Magazine.^[5]

Dr. Jeremy Nicholson, for his column "The Attraction Doctor" in Psychology Today, viewed MGTOW sympathetically, calling societal and female expectations on men in relationships a "double bind", which has left many men "wounded" or "frustrated" to the point that have chosen to "opt out" entirely and instead concentrate on making themselves happy in other ways.^[6]

In February, 2011, in an article about her published thesis that what she terms "the rise of women" has had a negative influence on men, American author Kay Hymowitz suggested the reader search for terms including "MGTOW (Men Going Their Own Way)" for examples of young men frustrated by women who complain of inequality while demanding preferential treatment.^[7]

A detailed account of the MGTOW phenomenon was published by Dr. Helen Smith in her 2013 book Men On Strike; Why Men are Boycotting Marriage, Fatherhood and the American Dream, and Why It Matters.^[1]

The Sunday Times featured an in-depth article detailing the MGTOW phenomenon.^[4]

In 2015, a BBC series hosted by Reggie Yates, called Extreme UK, mentioned MGTOW in the second episode.^[8]

References

^ ^a ^b Smith, Helen (June 4, 2013). Men On Strike; Why Men are Boycotting Marriage, Fatherhood and the American Dream, and Why It Matters. Encounter Books. ASIN 1594037620. American society has become anti-male. Men are sensing the backlash and are consciously and unconsciously going "on strike." They are dropping out of college, leaving the workforce and avoiding marriage and fatherhood at alarming rates. The trend is so pronounced that a number of books have been written about this "man-child" phenomenon, concluding that men have taken a vacation from responsibility simply because they can. But why should men participate in a system that seems to be increasingly stacked against them? As Men on Strike demonstrates, men aren't dropping out because they are stuck in arrested development. They are instead acting rationally in response to the lack of incentives society offers them to be responsible fathers, husbands and providers. In addition, men are going on strike, either consciously or unconsciously, because they do not want to be injured by the myriad of laws, attitudes and hostility against them for the crime of happening to be male in the twenty-first century. Men are starting to fight back against the backlash. Men on Strike explains their battle cry. {{cite book}}: Check |asin= value (help)
^ Hymowitz, Kay (March 6, 2012). Manning Up: How the Rise of Women Has Turned Men into Boys. Basic Books. ASIN 0465028365. Women complain there are no good men left—that men are immature, unreliable, and adrift. No wonder. Masculine role models have become increasingly juvenile and inarticulate: think of stars like Adam Sandler and Will Ferrell, or the dudes of the popular Judd Apatow movies. There are no rules for dating and mating. Guys are unsure how to treat a woman. Most importantly, dating in the pre-adult years is no longer a means to an end—marriage—as it was in the past. Many young men today suspect they are no longer essential to family life, and without the old scripts to follow, they find themselves stuck between adolescence and "real" adulthood. In Manning Up, Kay Hymowitz sets these problems in a socioeconomic context: today's knowledge economy is female friendly, and many of the highest profile areas of that economy—communications, design, the arts, and health care—are dominated by women. Men are increasingly left on the outskirts of this new, service economy, and take much longer to find a financial foothold. With no biological clock telling them it's time to grow up, without the financial resources to settle down, and with the accepted age of marriage rising into the late 30s or even 40s, men are holding onto adolescence at the very time that women are achieving professional success and looking to find a mate to share it with. A provocative account of the modern sexual economy, Hymowitz deftly charts a gender mismatch that threatens the future of the American family and makes no one happy in the long run. {{cite book}}: Check |asin= value (help)
^ Philip Zimbardo (2012). The Demise of Guys: Why Boys Are Struggling and What We Can Do About It. celebrated psychologist Philip G. Zimbardo and Nikita Duncan say that an addiction to video games and online porn have created a generation of shy, socially awkward, emotionally removed, and risk-adverse young men who are unable (and unwilling) to navigate the complexities and risks inherent to real-life relationships, school, and employment. ... The book is based on a popular TED Talk which Zimbardo did in 2011, and includes extensive research as well as a TED-exclusive survey that drew responses from more than 20,000 men.
^ ^a ^b Martin Daubney. "Meet the men giving up on women". The Sunday Times. These young men don't want girlfriends; they don't want children; and they don't even want to have sex. The secretive "MGTOW" movement is a fast-growing online community of disillusioned males. But are they misogynists or simply misunderstood? In interviews, Martin Daubney tracks some of them down. {{cite journal}}: Cite journal requires |journal= (help)
^ Mack Lamoureux. "This Group of Straight Men Is Swearing Off Women". Vice Magazine. At first glance, it's easy to lump MGTOW in with typical Men's Rights Activists (MRAs) who also believe that female oppression is a myth and that it's actually males who are oppressed—but that's not the case. The two groups differ significantly in how they make sure those tricky, tricky women don't pull any of their devious tactics. While MRAs are out to fix the problem through action and activism, members of MGTOW hold self-preservation above all else, and because of this the majority of the community seems to have decided to bow out. {{cite journal}}: Cite journal requires |journal= (help)
^ Nicholson, M.S.W., Ph.D., Dr. Jeremy (April 3, 2012). "Why Are Men Frustrated With Dating? Is dating a punishing situation for men?". Psychology Today. The Attraction Doctor. Sussex Publishers, LLC. Retrieved April 6, 2015. finally, some men choose opting out as the best option for them. This is sometimes known as the "men going their own way" (MGTOW) movement. Essentially, these are the guys who have been frustrated and punished to the point that they see no further incentive to relate. Rather than spending their efforts on material success to attract a partner, they focus on making themselves happy. Although these guys are often socially-shamed as "not growing up", in fact, they are arguably just reacting to the lack of outside motivation...and taking care of themselves.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
^ Hymowitz, Kay (February 27, 2011). "Why Are Men So Angry?". The Daily Beast. The Daily Beast. Retrieved 6 April 2015. During the last few years researching this age group, I've stumbled onto a powerful underground current of male bitterness that has nothing to do with outsourcing, the Mancession, or any of the other issues we usually associate with contemporary male discontent. No, this is bitterness from guys who find the young women they might have hoped to hang out with entitled, dishonest, self-involved, slutty, manipulative, shallow, controlling—and did I mention gold-digging? Check out the websites [with] names like MGTOW (Men Going Their Own Way), Nomarriage.com, or EternalBachelor [...] ("Give Modern Women the Husband They Deserve. None.")
^ http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06s5h18

My rationale:

This paragraph is a cheap and nasty placeholder to purport to show referencing. What is required is not a list of "Media coverage", but, instead, the text of salient point to be placed in valid places in the meat of the article, and the references used as real references. I have thus extracted this form the article to allow interested editors to perform just that set of actions without risking the article's deletion for improper referencing, which this is. There is even a comment in the paragraph which says "". That is just not the way we do it. Fiddle Faddle 12:57, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

Absolutely. The relevant points (which are the ones which mention "MGTOW" explicitly) should be integrated into the article, and the others removed entirely. For the BBC one, we could quote the relevant words, with a time offset to allow the relevant part of the broadcast to be found. -- The Anome (talk) 17:24, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

Mouse Utopia Experiment

mgtow believe that the observation of Mouse Utopia Experiment is what happening with currently. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 175.139.222.65 (talk) 01:50, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

Eh? -- The Anome (talk) 21:16, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavioral_sink add in mgtow in the Influence of the concept section. Do you think is ok ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 175.139.223.75 (talk) 02:39, 31 December 2015 (UTC)

I believe this article should stand alone and not be merged or deleted.

MGTOW is a growing movement and philosophy. It's followers have set up multiple online forums. However while aiming towards the goal of Mens Rights it also stands alone and separate from the Mens Rights Movement as it's not just about the rights of mens but men following their own paths that they and they alone to choose. To delete the page would also mean we have to delete pages for groups like Anonymous or delete every single religious page and put it on a single page titled religion. We'd also have to delete all ages regarding Feminism such as the Third Wave page and put them on a single Wiki Page call FEMINISM. Also I find it interesting how so many have been nitpicking the article and have stripped it bare leaving what is really only the critisizm section without proper reason. I therefor propose the page be left as is and not deleted as it has value despite what certain biased parties may claim. RedKing09 (talk) 05:13, 31 December 2015 (UTC)RedKing09

The merger discussion at #Proposed_merge_with_.22Mens_Rights_Movement.22_article was closed with no merger. The deletion discussion is at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Men Going Their Own Way where you should respond. The nitpicking is standard behavior when an article is created that sources blogs (see WP:BLOGS) and other sources that don't follow WP:RS and especially when the sources don't actually state what they are alleged to be saying. It's unfortunate that the only mainstream sources at the moment are those attacking it but if more time was spent actually listening to what is being asked instead of being defensive, it would probably help. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 07:02, 31 December 2015 (UTC)

David Sherratt

David Sherratt is a student at Cardiff University and a MGTOW. He's been profiled in several mainstream news sources, including here, here, and here, where he explains his views and those of the movement. Are any of these considered RS? FiredanceThroughTheNight (talk) 17:02, 31 December 2015 (UTC)

The wales online source and the sunday times source are both already cited in the article and there's consensus above that they're both RS. I'm not sure why the independent.co.uk source isn't in the article already. It was probably an oversight or, if it was previously included, my guess is that the reference was removed for an issue other than RS, like the content attributed to it probably didn't add to the article. I don't think anyone would object to it as a source if it was used constructively. Permstrump (talk) 16:47, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

Regarding synthesis

One way of thinking about this would be to consider the situation if you were writing an article about Trotskyism. Now, Trotskyism is a form of communism, but so are Leninism and Maoism. You can't just start to conflate all of them into an essay whose subject is a blur between all of these concepts, even if they are all sorta-kinda the same thing, and even if you have many specific supporting high-quality sources related to the subjects communism, Leninism or Maoism. You would have to be precise, and stick to the single narrow topic you have chosen, and use only the ones that refer specifically to Trotskyism.

The same principle applies here. MGTOW and the herbivore men are clearly sorta-kinda the same thing, and there's clearly a crossover with the Men's Rights lot,but they are not the same, and you can't blur the boundaries between all of these to make your argument. A smaller, precise article about just the one topic, with links to the articles on the others, is just much more useful to the reader than an essay-like discussion around the entire subject using MGTOW as a WP:COATRACK to hang it on.

None of this is to demean your efforts here: it's difficult to write a good article, particularly on a controversial topic. Keep on going. -- The Anome (talk) 18:06, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for clarifying. However, to build on your analogy, in my view an article on MGTOW/the sexodus would be analogous to an article on communism rather than Trotskyism; and then the marriage strike, the marriage boycott, and Japan's herbivore men, would be discussed as analogous to Trotskyism, Leninism, and (e.g.) communism in Cuba, respectively. —MaximumGrossTakeOffWeight^(talk). 18:31, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

Yes. I believe that multiple individual small articles about well-attested subjects with reliable sources, with no attempts to synthesize them into a larger topic, would currently be the best way to go. There's clearly an article on some kind of much broader topic to be written eventually, as these trends clearly all overlap and blur into one another, but there don't seem to be sufficient WP:RS about it for us to cover that larger topic in Wikipedia yet, or apparently any consensus among reliable sources about what it might be named. As an encyclopedia, we work by reporting what reliable sources say, using the WP:NPOV convention, but we do not attempt, as a matter of policy, to be journalists or researchers ourselves. For now, there's clearly something called "MGTOW" out there in the world, people are writing about it, and there seem to be sufficient WP:RS to write this article, but that's currently all. -- The Anome (talk) 18:45, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

Actually, I wasn't referring to separate articles, but as sub-sections (sub-topics) in a single article about the "sexodus". In other words, I was referring to your erroneous conceptual classification, not the need for separate articles. I don't think there are enough distinctions to merit a separate article on the minor divisions. But never mind. —MaximumGrossTakeOffWeight^(talk). 19:00, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

As far as the comparison to Japan's herbivore men movement, I've not seen any articles about herbivore men that compare it to MGTOW. I've only seen articles where MGTOW's compare themselves to herbivore men. I've also seen articles about MGTOW that specifically differentiate themselves from the Japanese herbivore men movement. From what I can tell, the only comparisons are primary sources. The Pizzey interview on YouTube feels WP:QUESTIONABLE to me. Maybe someone besides me and the editor who added it can weigh in on that one. Permstrump (talk) 18:51, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

I think the issue with the Pizzey interview is whether it's from a source that exercises consistent editorial control, per WP:RS. It appears to be from a YouTube channel, "Sargon of Akkad Livestreams", which I'm pretty sure does not qualify as an WP:RS. -- The Anome (talk) 18:54, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

But Sargon is not the source in this case, Erin Pizzey is the source. —MaximumGrossTakeOffWeight^(talk). 19:01, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

YouTube is user generated content and therefore not RS. I removed those references b/c I can't find that information in other reliable sources. Permstrump (talk) 19:03, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

Agree with The Anome and Permstrump here. Scarpy (talk) 20:49, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

[smith-1] Smith, Helen (June 4, 2013). Men On Strike; Why Men are Boycotting Marriage, Fatherhood and the American Dream, and Why It Matters. Encounter Books. ASIN 1594037620. American society has become anti-male. Men are sensing the backlash and are consciously and unconsciously going "on strike." They are dropping out of college, leaving the workforce and avoiding marriage and fatherhood at alarming rates. The trend is so pronounced that a number of books have been written about this "man-child" phenomenon, concluding that men have taken a vacation from responsibility simply because they can. But why should men participate in a system that seems to be increasingly stacked against them? As Men on Strike demonstrates, men aren't dropping out because they are stuck in arrested development. They are instead acting rationally in response to the lack of incentives society offers them to be responsible fathers, husbands and providers. In addition, men are going on strike, either consciously or unconsciously, because they do not want to be injured by the myriad of laws, attitudes and hostility against them for the crime of happening to be male in the twenty-first century. Men are starting to fight back against the backlash. Men on Strike explains their battle cry. {{cite book}}: Check |asin= value (help)

[Hymowitz-2] Hymowitz, Kay (March 6, 2012). Manning Up: How the Rise of Women Has Turned Men into Boys. Basic Books. ASIN 0465028365. Women complain there are no good men left—that men are immature, unreliable, and adrift. No wonder. Masculine role models have become increasingly juvenile and inarticulate: think of stars like Adam Sandler and Will Ferrell, or the dudes of the popular Judd Apatow movies. There are no rules for dating and mating. Guys are unsure how to treat a woman. Most importantly, dating in the pre-adult years is no longer a means to an end—marriage—as it was in the past. Many young men today suspect they are no longer essential to family life, and without the old scripts to follow, they find themselves stuck between adolescence and "real" adulthood. In Manning Up, Kay Hymowitz sets these problems in a socioeconomic context: today's knowledge economy is female friendly, and many of the highest profile areas of that economy—communications, design, the arts, and health care—are dominated by women. Men are increasingly left on the outskirts of this new, service economy, and take much longer to find a financial foothold. With no biological clock telling them it's time to grow up, without the financial resources to settle down, and with the accepted age of marriage rising into the late 30s or even 40s, men are holding onto adolescence at the very time that women are achieving professional success and looking to find a mate to share it with. A provocative account of the modern sexual economy, Hymowitz deftly charts a gender mismatch that threatens the future of the American family and makes no one happy in the long run. {{cite book}}: Check |asin= value (help)

[Zimbardo-3] Philip Zimbardo (2012). The Demise of Guys: Why Boys Are Struggling and What We Can Do About It. celebrated psychologist Philip G. Zimbardo and Nikita Duncan say that an addiction to video games and online porn have created a generation of shy, socially awkward, emotionally removed, and risk-adverse young men who are unable (and unwilling) to navigate the complexities and risks inherent to real-life relationships, school, and employment. ... The book is based on a popular TED Talk which Zimbardo did in 2011, and includes extensive research as well as a TED-exclusive survey that drew responses from more than 20,000 men.

[sundaytimes-4] Martin Daubney. "Meet the men giving up on women". The Sunday Times. These young men don't want girlfriends; they don't want children; and they don't even want to have sex. The secretive "MGTOW" movement is a fast-growing online community of disillusioned males. But are they misogynists or simply misunderstood? In interviews, Martin Daubney tracks some of them down. {{cite journal}}: Cite journal requires |journal= (help)

[vice1-5] Mack Lamoureux. "This Group of Straight Men Is Swearing Off Women". Vice Magazine. At first glance, it's easy to lump MGTOW in with typical Men's Rights Activists (MRAs) who also believe that female oppression is a myth and that it's actually males who are oppressed—but that's not the case. The two groups differ significantly in how they make sure those tricky, tricky women don't pull any of their devious tactics. While MRAs are out to fix the problem through action and activism, members of MGTOW hold self-preservation above all else, and because of this the majority of the community seems to have decided to bow out. {{cite journal}}: Cite journal requires |journal= (help)

[psychologytoday-6] Nicholson, M.S.W., Ph.D., Dr. Jeremy (April 3, 2012). "Why Are Men Frustrated With Dating? Is dating a punishing situation for men?". Psychology Today. The Attraction Doctor. Sussex Publishers, LLC. Retrieved April 6, 2015. finally, some men choose opting out as the best option for them. This is sometimes known as the "men going their own way" (MGTOW) movement. Essentially, these are the guys who have been frustrated and punished to the point that they see no further incentive to relate. Rather than spending their efforts on material success to attract a partner, they focus on making themselves happy. Although these guys are often socially-shamed as "not growing up", in fact, they are arguably just reacting to the lack of outside motivation...and taking care of themselves.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

[hymowitz2-7] Hymowitz, Kay (February 27, 2011). "Why Are Men So Angry?". The Daily Beast. The Daily Beast. Retrieved 6 April 2015. During the last few years researching this age group, I've stumbled onto a powerful underground current of male bitterness that has nothing to do with outsourcing, the Mancession, or any of the other issues we usually associate with contemporary male discontent. No, this is bitterness from guys who find the young women they might have hoped to hang out with entitled, dishonest, self-involved, slutty, manipulative, shallow, controlling—and did I mention gold-digging? Check out the websites [with] names like MGTOW (Men Going Their Own Way), Nomarriage.com, or EternalBachelor [...] ("Give Modern Women the Husband They Deserve. None.")

[8] ttp://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06s5h18

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