Talk:Median kingdom

Wikidata

We have a Wikidata page for the Medes and another for the Media region/satrapy. I was thinking about creating one just for the Median kingdom/empire because the organization of the items is very confusing in my opinion. Mawer10 (talk) 16:44, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 3 April 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Moved to Median Kingdom (non-admin closure) Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 04:14, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

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Median state → Median kingdom or Median Empire – The term "kingdom" is more common and natural as evidenced in the article itself. Mawer10 (talk) 21:38, 31 March 2024 (UTC) This is a contested technical request (permalink). Mawer10 (talk) 01:13, 3 April 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Natg 19 (talk) 23:05, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

A search on Google Scholar shows that results for "Median state" do not always refer to the Median political entity, furthermore it is not very common to refer to political entities from the Ancient Era as "states". On the other hand, a search for "Median kingdom" always gives the correct results. "Median Empire" is also a valid title, I would support it too. But since the existence of such an empire is questionable, the title "Median kingdom" would be the most ideal. Amakuru, Ahecht. Mawer10 (talk) 12:52, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

• Support move to Median kingdom per nom. Unless new evidence is discovered, it doesn't look like "Median Empire" will ever gain currency again. --HistoryofIran (talk) 12:56, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

  Looking at ngrams, other than a brief period of time from 2003-2007, Median empire seems to consistently be the more popular term. --Ahecht (TALK
  PAGE) 13:57, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. First choice is to retain the current name, as ngrams show it the most common. If we must move, then "Median empire" is the best title, again it's more of a WP:COMMONNAME than the proposed.  — Amakuru (talk) 13:00, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

  In Google Scholar, a lot of those searches on "Median state" is the measure "median state". Doesn't that mean the ngram also includes that? [1]. And respectfully, "Median Empire" is inaccurate, since it's largely dismissed by scholarship today, which needs to be more apparent in this article, which uses non-WP:RS like Iranchamber, Britannica, Livius, and probably more (the expansion of the article is greatly appreciated though and has a lot of good stuff). HistoryofIran (talk) 13:09, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

  @HistoryofIran Your ngram is flawed because you're capitalizing "Kingdom" but not "State". If you capitalize both, State falls below Kingdom in 2019. If you capitalize neither, "kingdom" dominates except for a brief period from 2000-2008. --Ahecht (TALK
  PAGE) 14:04, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

  Ah I didnt know that made a difference, thanks! HistoryofIran (talk) 16:16, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

  Many sources also use the term empire in quotation marks, see. Mawer10 (talk) 15:01, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

  Yep, the first three that come up are questioning its status as an “empire”. Unlike other names in general, this is not something that can be determined by what comes up in search results, we have to look into the current consensus in scholarship, what they actually say about it etc. HistoryofIran (talk) 19:22, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

• @Mawer10, HistoryofIran, Ahecht, and Amakuru: Ancient Media? Compare Ancient Rome, Ancient Greece, Ancient Egypt and Ancient Carthage. The current title is not easy to parse and "Median empire" is dated. Srnec (talk) 23:19, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

  Sounds good to me. HistoryofIran (talk) 01:13, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

  These "Ancient [something]" articles are about ancient civilizations with great legacy and rich history, the history of Media is part of Ancient Persia or Ancient Iran as the region remained under Persian rule for centuries and its people were assimilated into the Persians. Also "Ancient Media" is not commonly used in the sources, see. "Median kingdom" is the best title, as it is much more common than "Median state" and has a clear meaning. Mawer10 (talk) 11:03, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

  Didn't you create this article at its present title? Srnec (talk) 18:26, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

  @Srnec: Yes, I did. Not only that, but I have been working on this article since 2020 (this article is a translation of the Portuguese version I worked on). It should have been "Median kingdom" from the beginning. Mawer10 (talk) 00:36, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

  Good point. I support a move to Median kingdom as the first choice. HistoryofIran (talk) 22:17, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

• Support move to Median Kingdom per nom. Zinderboff(talk) 12:12, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Predecessors

@EdwardElric2016: The conquest of Elam by the Medes is unlikely and there is no significant evidence of a relationship between the Medes and Elamites, furthermore Elam continued to exist as a political entity after the fall of Assyria. See Median kingdom#Median expansion, and the source if you have time. Mawer10 (talk) 10:42, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

As for the Scythians and Cimmerians, they are not relevant as predecessors of the Median Kingdom because they continued to exist after the end of the Median Kingdom. They are nomadic people, the Medes (at least according to Herodotus) had already founded their kingdom when the Scythians appear in the history. Mawer10 (talk) 10:47, 4 July 2024 (UTC)