Talk:Meat Loaf/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

He played guitar

There's plenty of pictures and even a few videos of him playing guitar, just look up "Meat Loaf playing guitar" into Google images and you'll find a lot of pictures of him playing guitar. AdamBendelow (talk) 20:34, 30 December 2018 (UTC)

Politics

The politics section ends in 2012. Since then Meatloaf has supported Donald Trump and clashed with Greta Thunberg over climate change. Colonial Computer 21:37, 9 March 2020 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 22yearswothanks (talk • contribs)

Has there been coverage of it in reliable sources? Schazjmd (talk) 21:42, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

Original source is this DailyMail interview, is that even considered legit? Secondary coverage also seems to be mainly from tabloids. --Fourthperson (talk) 13:58, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Fourthperson, good find. We don't use DailyMail as a source (see WP:RSPS) and in general avoid tabloids, so unless there's some reliable coverage of his political views/activities, there's nothing to add to the article. Schazjmd (talk) 15:43, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Blew a fuse?

"During the recording of their first song, he hit a note so high that he managed to blow a fuse on the recording monitor."

This is garbage. That is not how that works, at all. However, it can't be removed without rewriting the surrounding paragraph. 2601:183:8300:5BCE:2072:D0FD:C37:7E55 (talk) 02:56, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

You're right, it's nonsense. I removed the offending sentence. Binksternet (talk) 04:52, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

Cause of Death and COVID Vaccine Critic

Just in case this becomes an issue I am seeing some reports he died of COVID and was also an out spoken critic of the vaccine. Most are TMZ type sites trying to get a scoop on the story. Until its on more reliable sites best to leave it as unknown cause of death at this time till more comes out. Hopefully this will not be an issue but when more wake up/see his death it could be. If you have good reliable refinances please post. I am not seeing any great ones right now. ContentEditman (talk) 12:18, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Agreed. Right now, until a decent source is available, we shouldn’t go any further than saying “with covid”, not “from covid”. It’s widely known now that the overwhelming majority of covid deaths were “with” not “from”. In any case, TMZ said he became seriously ill with covid. Boscaswell talk 14:42, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Agreed that questionable sources shouldn't be used for information (i.e. TMZ). However, this isn't supposed to be a place to peddle misinformation either. Your statement that "It’s widely known now that the overwhelming majority of covid deaths were “with” not “from”." is not only extremely egregious, it's not based on actual facts or any kind of reputable sources. Stop inserting your narratives into this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Darshuto (talk • contribs) 22:02, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

I have challenged the TMZ citation. Per WP:BRD, restoring it (or any source that relies on TMZ) requires consensus on this talk page. TMZ has questionable reliability. See WP:Reliable sources/Perennial sources#TMZ. He may have died from complications related to covid, but Wikipedia is not a newspaper that must rush to report something. We can wait for a better source. For someone with his notability, it will be reported in a better source if it's true. Sundayclose (talk) 19:30, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

I'm also challenging citations to the Daily Mirror. It's a tabloid. Sundayclose (talk) 20:04, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

@Sundayclose: Following up here after my revert. We've talked about this on my talk page - but for the record here, I think it's better to explain what has been reported while explaining that it has been covered in the tabloids, then simply ignoring it. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 20:45, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

@Mike Peel: Thanks for your comment, but I respectfully disagree, and my challenge to the sources remains. Sundayclose (talk) 20:47, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Let's see what others think before editing more about this. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 20:49, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

I agree, although my personal preference is to not use tabloid-type sources. Sundayclose (talk) 20:56, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Things have moved on and reputable outlets are reporting this (Stuff, The Telegraph, MSN, NZ Herald, etc). Newzild (talk) 23:59, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Here’s one: https://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/covid-19-american-singer-and-actor-meat-loaf-marvin-lee-aday-dies-aged-74/KZOD4XPGCICJJIB7BRY7EMVHCI/?outputType=amp Newzild (talk) 00:20, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Here’s another - this is the Daily Telegraph: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/01/21/meat-loaf-railed-against-covid-rules-nuisance-face-masks-death/ Newzild (talk) 00:21, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

When a new source gets it's information from TMZ, that's not a "reputable news outlet" reporting how he died. It's reporting what TMZ said. That's why they word it "reportedly died". Sundayclose (talk) 00:26, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Even TMZ says they are not sure if he was vaccinated or not. We should stick to facts. We do know that he was very outspoken against pandemic restrictions. His daughter did post that she and many of her family got COVID. TMZ's sources are probably right, and they tend to be pretty accurate for breaking celebrity news. However, there is no rush and we can wait until there's confirmation before saying he died of COVID-19. Wikipedia policies actually favor being cautious, and we're actually more cautious than many news media who rush to publish. Harizotoh9 (talk) 04:27, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Of course we are, because Wikipedia is not a newspaper, no matter how hard Wikipedians may misguidedly try to emulate or keep up with news. Most articles are still full of extraneous crud from daily news however: this article mentions he fainted or fell over at least three times in his career! Let history show that no facts are mundane enough to escape the astute eyes of Wikipedians. --Animalparty! (talk) 06:46, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

The highest quality sources like Reuters or the Associated Press decline to give a cause of death. Other high quality sources like the Dallas Morning News do so as well. WP:WEIGHT goes to the highest quality sourcing. If I had to bet money, I personally would bet that TMZ's sources are correct, but my personal opinion means nothing as we go by sources. Harizotoh9 (talk) 09:57, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

For what it's worth here are some other publications which say he was reportedly ill with COVID-19. They don't have any new sources, and are ultimately relying upon the TMZ reporting:

- New Yorker - Windsor Star - The Detroit News - WTVF Harizotoh9 (talk) 11:18, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

There a plenty of reliable references showing his death was due to COVID. It should be left in the page now. ContentEditman (talk) 12:57, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

Then provide one, that's easy. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 15:33, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

They have, right above me and also in the page as well. Did you not see them or have a problem with all of them? ContentEditman (talk) 15:44, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

"Right above you" stopped cold at TMZ. The one now in the article list no source at all for its information; I'd question its value as a WP:RS without further discussion. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 17:10, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

So you did not read them all and the ones you did you have nothing to show they are not reliable just do not like what they are saying? We have multiple reliable references saying he died from COVID and TMZ as a supporting one on top of that. ContentEditman (talk) 19:57, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

Who said I didn't read them? Up yours. I read enough for it to be clear that the information was sourced to the same TMZ report; no reason to read beyond that, since the issue at hand is a reliable source for the assertion (which I think is accurate, by the way) that he died of COVID. The best we can say at the moment is that it was reported that he died of COVID. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 20:43, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 January 2022

Please add to filmography: Meat Loaf appeared in Formula 51 (2001) as The Lizard. Dorse278 (talk) 14:38, 21 January 2022 (UTC) Dorse278 (talk) 14:38, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ––FormalDude talk 10:28, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Blind before I stop

The following material lacks citations and is delaying the posting of this article to the main page. Therefore, I am simply removing it to this location. Please add citations or edit as needed and then restore it as appropriate. Jehochman ^Talk 14:56, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Removed from article

According to Meat Loaf's 1998 autobiography, the album sold poorly because of its production. Meat Loaf would have preferred to cancel the project and wait to work with more Steinman material. However, the album gained a cult following over the years, with the songs "Execution Day" and "Standing on the Outside" as standout tracks on the record. "Standing on the Outside" was also featured during the third season of the 1980s television series Miami Vice; it was used several times during the episode titled "Forgive Us Our Debts" (first aired December 12, 1986).

In the former USSR, this was the first Meat Loaf album officially permitted to be published, in connection with the beginning of the collapse of the Iron Curtain.

The song "Masculine" was the only song from the record that was a live show mainstay from 1987 to 1992. He then omitted that song in favor of "Life Is a Lemon and I Want My Money Back", following the success of Bat Out of Hell II: Back into Hell.

References

Health

There is no mention of him suffering from wolff-parkinson-wright syndrome and collapsing on stage at Wembley Arena in 2003 https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/meat-loaf-has-heart-surgery-248156/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Idcowden (talk • contribs) 15:53, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 January 2022 (2)

https://www.msn.com/en-us/music/news/meat-loaf-died-after-becoming-seriously-ill-with-covid-report/ar-AAT0FqR -- AlanCo4 (talk) 17:30, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. PianoDan (talk) 19:36, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Death

The claim that Meat Loaf had Covid is not yet substantiated, and the source given--the Daily Mirror--is a tabloid considered an unreliable source. I suggest removing this claim, and the category of Covid deaths, until there is something substantiated by a reliable source.

TMZ has reported that he is anti-vax. This should be possible to be verified.[1] 74.64.73.24 (talk) 21:37, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Tabloids are jumping the gun here. Tabloids are tabloids for a reason, and this is a nice example to illustrate the differences between them and higher quality sources. AP and other reliable sources only say no official cause of death. The Dallas Morning News goes a step further, reporting his anti-restriction views, and that his daughter made a post to instagram saying they were sick with COVID. However it does not say that is what he died of. We go with the best sources so we will have to wait. Harizotoh9 (talk) 01:15, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Better sources citing TMZ's reporting have emerged. I think that's enough for a mention with attribution to TMZ but of course not enough for wiki-voice. [2] [3] starship.paint (exalt) 02:18, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

That's TMZ's conclusion which is pretty weak authority. They're not medical experts, and they don't have direct information. This is a lot of maybes, even if it is likely and turns out to be true. There's no rush for Wikipedia, and we are more cautious than a lot of news media. Harizotoh9 (talk) 04:20, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Times of London now reporting this. This article needs to state that numerous news outlets are reporting that he was seriously I’ll with Covid before his death (without definitively saying that he died of Covid). Also, his outspoken stance on Covid measures should be mentioned. This is well documented. https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/meat-loaf-critically-ill-with-covid-days-before-his-death-598bcsc6k Newzild (talk) 20:13, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Fox News now reporting this: https://www.foxnews.com/politics/meat-loaf-mocked-left-vaccine-lockdown-opposition-hours-after-death-pandemic

Nominated for the Main Page at WP:ITN

As of right now there is a rough consensus that article quality is not currently where it needs to be for this to be posted on the main page. See the discussion here. -Ad Orientem (talk) 20:21, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Image request

It would be benifical for the article if we the editors, keep an eye out for a better image we can use. Sence the subject has died, the image should be from his "Hay-Days". Thanx, - FlightTime (open channel) 22:00, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

I agree, I shall check Wikicommons to see if there are any good "hay-day" images of Meat Loaf available there. If not then I'm sure someone will upload one at some point. --InPursuitOfAMorePerfectUnion (talk) 23:38, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

@InPursuitOfAMorePerfectUnion: Thanx! - FlightTime (open channel) 00:14, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

No problem! Always happy to help. --InPursuitOfAMorePerfectUnion (talk) 00:48, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

He appears to be in declining health in the 2019 image, so we should avoid that. The image at the top is gonna be how he's remembered for a long time. Harizotoh9 (talk) 01:09, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 January 2022 (3)

Ellen Foley acted on stage with Meat Loaf. But her movements were synched to the voice of Karla DeVito, during the singing. 74.196.102.59 (talk) 23:59, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Sundayclose (talk) 00:09, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Something that's unknown is by definition not worth saying

In the paragraph about his death, I read: "it's unknown if he was vaccinated etc." If you don't know something, you just say nothing about it. By saying "you don't know if he was vaccinated" you're sharing the info that you have no info about it. So you just shut up, don't you? Or what are you trying to imply (by saying you've got nothing to justify your implication)? Don't you feel stupid enough already? 46.24.245.101 (talk) 01:23, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 January 2022

Cause of death is listed as COBID-19 but the two references given state that the cause is unknown. 2601:602:9201:4670:3F:F92F:F0FE:C9B7 (talk) 02:11, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

You were right. I've changed it by taking it out of that sentence and citing two new sources. starship.paint (exalt) 02:14, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 January 2022 (2)

 Change: "His daughter had posted to Instagram on January 7 that she and the rest of the family had contracted COVID-19 but that no one at that time was seriously ill.[136]" To: What the instagram post actually says. "Too many of our friends and family are testing positive..." etc.

The post never says she contracted covid, nor "the rest of the family", rather it says they're quarantined again. Qurantine could simply mean they were exposed to only one person who tested postive. This entry is misleading and fraudulent from what I see. Source is the source, [136], listed. Whoever wrote the original line on wikipedia lied about what the source says. 166.182.87.12 (talk) 06:23, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Quoted. starship.paint (exalt) 07:10, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 January 2022 (3)

While it seems most agree to not list the cause of death until it has been confirmed by a more trustworthy source than TMZ. This Article is still listed in the category: "Deaths from the COVID-19 pandemic in Texas" Until the cause of death is confirmed, i think this article should not be in that category. --2001:16B8:3066:6A00:AD17:85DD:7D:2CF9 (talk) 11:20, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

removed for now starship.paint (exalt) 14:45, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Born 1951, not 1947?

From the Guardian: "Meat Loaf was born Marvin Lee Aday in Dallas, Texas, the son of a schoolteacher and an alcoholic ex-cop. The year has been variously reported as either 1947, 1948, 1951 or 1952. Meat has a bit of a reputation as a fabulist. He told people all kinds of stories about how he got the name Meat Loaf, when the truth was his daddy gave him the nickname when he was still a baby, long before his size would come to make it seem like a taunt. When I suggest that the confusion over the date of birth may be equally deliberate, he leans across the table, pulls his passport out of his back pocket and holds it open for my inspection. It says 1951. By this gesture I am given to understand that he wishes to put an end to the matter, but it doesn't quite erase the sentence "I was born on September 27 1947", which comes from his own 1999 autobiography. I suppose the legal document takes precedent"

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2003/may/05/artsfeatures.popandrock?CMP=fb_gu&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1642782755 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.119.233.210 (talk) 13:45, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

The public Texas Dept. of Health Birth Index gives his birth as September 27, 1947. Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:36, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Celeb Apprentice

he was on that for a whole season; way more important than all those one-offs padding the "in media" section. suggest it be added there rather than just a quick aside later on. 2601:19C:5280:5BA7:A58D:A9B9:8013:6F85 (talk) 09:20, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Weber Grills gaffe and apology

[4] Would need better sourcing to use in the article, but leaving the tweet here in case it is useful for further research. 2602:24A:DE47:B8E0:1B43:29FD:A863:33CA (talk) 02:12, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Meatloaf missing filmography info

Meatloaf played the character Mr. Lizard opposite Samuel L. Jackson in a movie called Formula 51 (US title) or The 51st State (UK title) 2600:380:E8CC:3D96:7C7F:4A19:6BAD:F5DF (talk) 13:02, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 January 2022 (4)

Meatloaf starred as Mr. Lizard opposite Samuel L. Jackson in a 2002 film called Formula 51 (US title) or The 51st State (UK title). It's not listed in your article.

}} 2600:380:E8CC:3D96:7C7F:4A19:6BAD:F5DF (talk) 13:07, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Music genre

Wasn't one of his music genre operatic rock, as he also has recorded with various operas and symphonies bands. 172.58.75.211 (talk) 22:00, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 January 2022 (5)

Meat Loaf’s family has stated that they will not be releasing his cause of death. Anything alluding to Covid-19 is at this point heresy. 108.161.125.187 (talk) 14:59, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

We follow WP:RS (see WP:RSP). If they report it, so can we. If they haven't, we wait. starship.paint (exalt) 08:06, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 January 2022

Change subject name from Michael to Marvin 73.168.194.55 (talk) 05:51, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

 Not done. It is well documented that he changed his birth name of Marvin to Michael. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:57, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

Not on recent deaths

How come he was never on recent deaths? I checked several times at around the time of his death and he was never there. Cboi Sandlin (talk) 00:05, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

There was too much uncited material in the article. We failed to correct it in time, or the ITN criteria is being applied to strictly. See the comments at Wikipedia:In the news/Candidates#RD: Meat Loaf. Jehochman ^Talk 00:54, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

The family has not released a cause of death.

So why is covid listed as the course of death? Just because other family members had it doesn't mean that Meat Loaf died of it. AdamTheMusicFan (talk) 16:11, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia goes by what reliable references say. Right now we have several saying his death was due to COVID. Do you have reliable references saying otherwise? ContentEditman (talk) 17:11, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

A citation is included in the article body. If you believe it isn't an adequate source, please explain why. Regardless, the body and the infobox should match; COVID-19 should be listed as the cause of death both places, or neither. Zwilson (talk) 20:39, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

The NME says that he passed away due to COVID-19 but provide no proof, therefore I think that the cause of death shouldn't be listed until the family comes forward and confirms it. AdamTheMusicFan (talk) 22:03, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

As said before, Wikipedia goes by reliable references. We have more than 1 saying he died from COVID. Unless you have other references that say other wise it should stay as it is now. ContentEditman (talk) 00:12, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

The BBC says the cause of death is unknown, [5] AdamTheMusicFan (talk) 09:21, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

Very high quality sources like Associated Press, Reuters, BBC, and People magazine, have only reported that the family did not release a cause of death. Then TMZ came out with a report, and other reliable sources including multiple tv stations and newspapers such as Las Vegas Review Journal have deemed the report plausible and are reporting that TMZ reported it. This is a situation where there's some dispute among reliable sources. I left it as "reportedly" since it's not confirmed as a kind of compromize. Howard Stern might force the issue, as he's asked the family to advocate for vaccination which may result in the family giving a cause of death at least. 23:29, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Musical artist

@ContentEditman: the stable version of the article used {{infobox musical artist}}, and I see no discussion here about moving away from that. Please self-revert and gain consensus before changing it. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:04, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

@Nikkimaria: Look right above you, "The family...". This has been brought up that the body and the infobox should match. I have no problem with that and agree. Its you that does not have consensus to change. If you had actually looked at the talk page first you would have seen that and not started edit warring. Please be more respectful and use the TALK page first in the future. Also the infobox matches many others like John Lennon for example. ContentEditman (talk) 01:44, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

ContentEditman, as already noted, the stable version of the article uses {{infobox musical artist}}. The section above does not constitute the consensus required for changing that. If you feel it should be changed, please go ahead and propose a legitimate rationale for that, because so far there hasn't been one. Until that happens and gains consensus, the previous version should persist per WP:NOCON. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:20, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

I'm the one who initially changed the infobox, and if I hadn't added information at the same time, I probably would have classed that as a minor edit. Using a more generic infobox type with the specific one embedded is widely practiced across Wikipedia and usually not controversial. I think what's really at the heart of the controversy is listing COVID-19 as the cause of death. There are now two citations for that in the article, so I think removing it would be inappropriate without either a good argument that the citations are unreliable, or reliable source contradicting them. Zwilson (talk) 03:05, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

This section isn't about the content in the article, but about which infobox to use. There's no policy or guideline that I'm aware of requiring embedding rather than directly using {{infobox musical artist}}, and no reason put forward why that change should be made in this case. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:25, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

I agree with Zwilson that removing it would be inappropriate. And as I already showed many other pages, some highly rated ones like John Lennon for example, have the same layout. So this has been well established to be the norm for Wikipedia and pages like this. Do you have a rule that this and other highly rated pages are breaking? ContentEditman (talk) 12:17, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

As per MOS:INFOBOXUSE which infobox to use is decided on an article-by-article basis, not because of what other pages do. And since you've put forward no evidence that restoring the longstanding version would be "inappropriate", WP:NOCON indicates that it should stand. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:04, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

You're the one without consensus and edit warring. I have asked you nicely to stop but you continue to edit war without consensus or support. ContentEditman (talk) 14:27, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

This isn't a vote - consensus is based on arguments rooted in guidelines and policies, and you've not presented any. And as already noted, in the absence of consensus we retain the longstanding use of {{infobox musical artist}}. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:32, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

This has been gone over above and even in the Archive. It has consensus and you're the only one arguing/edit warring it. You do not have support for your demands. Either get consensus, which you do not have, or please stop. ContentEditman (talk) 00:29, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

The only discussion in the archive seems to be that musical artist should take priority. Which it has, as the stable version for over five years, until it was unilaterally changed a few days ago. Given that history, it would be up to anyone wanting to change it to present valid, policy-based rationales to do so. So far none have been forthcoming. So if you feel that there is some reason why it's "inappropriate" for this individual primarily notable as a musical artist to use the same template it has used for years, please feel free to explain that. Consensus is not voting, and without actual reasoning being put forward the "consensus" you claim for your position simply does not exist. You need to leave the stable version in place until you establish that consensus. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:39, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

The stable version is in place and has consensus. You can keep making the same demands but it does not change the facts. You're the only one edit warring and trying to change something no one else agrees with. You're welcome to take it to any dispute resolution, I have no problem others seeing what has been discussed and agreed on. ContentEditman (talk) 01:07, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

The "facts" that you are claiming are simply untrue. Again, the {{infobox musical artist}} template has been in place for over five years, and again, no valid rationale has been put forward to change it, and again, if you want to change it it's up to you to get consensus to do so, and again, you restoring this disputed version without doing that is not appropriate. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:29, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

There is already consensus for the current layout. You ignoring multiple editors to bully your wants does not give you consensus to change. You changing it to something else without consensus would show you're editing in bad faith and continuing to edit war. Like I said before you're welcome to post to dispute resolution. I have no problem with others reviewing what has been talked about and posted. ContentEditman (talk) 12:47, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

Again, consensus is not voting - two editors who have put forward zero valid arguments do not constitute consensus to change the status quo that has existed since FlightTime's 2016 edit. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:37, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

ContentEditman, if you believe there is consensus, please quote specifically the rationales that you believe support the change. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:53, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

You do not have consensus for your changes that you're the only one requesting. You have now shown you are knowingly edit warring and editing in bad faith. Either get support for your changes or I will be forced to report your aggressive and bullying edits. ContentEditman (talk) 01:20, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

ContentEditman, again, please quote the specific rationales that you believe support a consensus to change from the longstanding use of {{infobox musical artist}} to your proposed {{infobox person}}. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:25, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Nikkimaria I have several times. Just because you do not like that you're not getting your way and think bullying people will work shows maybe you need to take a break from editing. I am tired of your bad faith edits and bullying behavior. Either get support for your changes or stop. ContentEditman (talk) 01:28, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

ContentEditman if you have several times as you claim then it should be easy to copy-paste. Please quote the specific rationales that you believe support a consensus to change from the longstanding use of {{infobox musical artist}} to your proposed {{infobox person}}. If you can't do that you really have no basis to claim a consensus to change. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:31, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Nikkimaria I am not going to play your games. You're welcome to contact an admin or post at any dispute resolution pages. But if you keep this up I will report your bullying and bad faith actions. ContentEditman (talk) 01:34, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

ContentEditman, it's not a game, it's an effort to get you to present the rationales that you believe support your proposed change. To recap my position: (1) This article has used {{infobox musical artist}} for over five years, making that the longstanding status quo. In the absence of consensus, that status quo is the default. (2) The subject of the article is best known as a musical artist, making that an appropriate template to describe him. (3) What template to use is decided at the article level, meaning what other articles do is not a relevant argument, and there is no policy or guideline requiring the move to generic templates. Now if you have opposing arguments or refutations, please present them so we can discuss. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:45, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

ContentEditman, ↑. Nikkimaria (talk) 12:45, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

[edit conflict] {{infobox musical artist}} has been the stable version for many years. I'm not seeing any rationale presented for changing that... unless I am missing something in the long discussion...? Other than that it should match John Lennon's article? But for what reason? Paul Erik ^{(talk)(contribs)} 01:37, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

As far as I can remember about the edit that was pointed to, my initial thought was, the article subject was a musical artist, so why are we changing the infobox, I remember changing a couple more, but at some point I was told that when a artist has notable areas in the life outside of they're main notability, it was best to change to Infobox Person to help handle those facts, then embed the musical artist infobox. I agree with that rational. - FlightTime (open channel) 01:39, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Correct, he was more than just a singer. I used John Lennon as an example but many other artist are also displayed the same way, even cause of death also, such as Amy Winehouse, Janis Joplin, etc... I support the edit Zwilson made and agree with it. ContentEditman (talk) 01:42, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

As already noted, what happens at other articles is not relevant to what template is used per, per MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE, and the previous version appropriately conveyed what he is known for. In the absence of a response to the query above, it seems that the only purpose of changing the template was to misuse |death_cause=. The use here is not consistent with the documentation of {{infobox person}} since the cause of death in this case is not significant to the subject's notability. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:57, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Which is it? They are not relevant or his death is not significant? His cause of death made news not just for him but how. Many articles have been posted of many speaking out about how his family and others should speak up about COVID due to him being anti-mandate. So yes his background is almost exact to many otters with the exact layout and the template says to include his death if the significance for the subject's notability. Which in this case it is: again like John Lennon, Amy Winehouse, Janis Joplin, etc... ContentEditman (talk) 12:24, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Still looking for a rationale as to why this specific article should use {{infobox person}} instead of {{infobox musical artist}}. If it does use {{infobox person}}, the cause of death is not significant to the subject's notability, and again what other articles do is not a relevant argument. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:28, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

ContentEditman, if you're unwilling or unable to discuss your proposals, please don't continue to restore them. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:23, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

I already have and you have not gained consensus still. Multiply other editors have written here and you're still the only one trying to bully your demands. Either get consensus or stop your bad faith editing. ContentEditman (talk) 14:38, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

ContentEditman, I'm trying to have a good-faith consensus-building discussion here; it would be very helpful if you did the same and responded to the substantive points under discussion rather than throw around accusations. You have stated that his death made news; that is not evidence in itself that it is significant to his notability. He was already a well-known musical artist prior to COVID-19's emergence. You have stated that other articles have a similar layout; I have explained that this is not relevant to what should happen here, because what template and what parameters to use are decided on an article-by-article basis. You have said he was known as more than just a singer, but the only parameter relevant to other areas of notability is |occupation=, which was already present and used prior to this dispute. So in light of these points, please present your rationales and supporting evidence as to why (a) this article should be changed from the longstanding use of {{infobox musical artist}} to {{infobox person}}, and (b) if {{infobox person}} is used, why |death_cause= should be included given the template's documentation. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:59, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

Since it doesn't seem like an answer is forthcoming, does anyone else want to comment on these two issues? FlightTime? Paul Erik? Nikkimaria (talk) 01:22, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

Well, if I had to, I would argue from the perspective of WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE which pushes us to keep the information to key facts. Routinely including cause of death is typically not what is done. There is a high bar for inclusion of the cause of death in the infobox; this seems to be more in line with Nikkimaria's perspective. On a side note, I am unhappy with the accusations that Nikkimaria is bullying and not editing in good faith. That sort of discourse does not advance the discussion. Paul Erik ^{(talk)(contribs)} 02:51, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

Paul Erik The only reason he pinged you is he is not getting his way. If you look at his history he has removed COVID as cause of death from several pages and edit warring on other pages with other editors for the same exact topic. He seems to have an agenda based on his editing history and the way he has handled himself on the talk pages. In this case his cause of death fits with the template guidelines and is very notable for this person. Even others have come out asking his family to talk about it due to its notability. ContentEditman (talk) 20:52, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

I'm female, and I pinged other participating editors to get their perspectives on the questions since you have so far not responded. What is your evidence that the cause of death fits with the guidelines and is significant to the subject's notability? Nikkimaria (talk) 01:34, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

ContentEditman, a reminder that refusing to discuss on talk while continuing to revert constitutes disruptive editing and does not contribute towards reaching the consensus required for inclusion. Again, what is your evidence that cause of death fits with the guidelines noted by Paul Erik and myself? Nikkimaria (talk) 01:37, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

Nikkimaria No you're not editing in good faith. Again you're the ONLY person pushing this even when template Doc supports it and several other editors have written here and you're still the only one pushing this. Also answer me this. Why is it you only seem to want to remove the cause of death when its COVID? I see you have done this for a several pages now. Your editing history shows your bad faith edits all on one specific area. Why is that? ContentEditman (talk) 12:18, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

Your interpretation of my edits is not correct; this particular parameter is frequently misused, not just for COVID-19-related cases but for other causes as well, and I work to address that. Now could you please present your rationales and evidence, as requested? Nikkimaria (talk) 12:44, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

I already have. You ignored it and infobox requirements. You're welcome to take it to WP:DRN. But his cause of death is very prominent and notable. ContentEditman (talk) 01:39, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

Because the onus for gaining consensus is on those seeking to include rather than exclude, it would be up to you to take it to DRN or another venue if wishing to pursue. The infobox requirement is not only that the cause of death is sourceable, but that it is significant to the subject's notability. You have not demonstrated that to be the case here: the subject was already notable for unrelated reasons well before his death. As Paul Erik notes, the bar for inclusion is high, and at this point it has not been met. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:56, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

For those who aren't aware, this editor, Nikkimaria, has done this same thing at Adam Schlesinger using the same arguments. This editor also tried to use the same "consensus isn't a vote" to get around the issue that they were the only one against inclusion. At Adam Schlesinger this editor also kept talking about this onus being on the person who wants to add the information to get a consensus when it appears to me that is what is being done here and as with Adam Schlesinger's page, the consensus appears to be inclusion of listing COVID-19 as the cause of death. Should every person with a page that died COVID-19 have their cause of death listed? No and I don't think anyone is doubting that. But when you have someone like Meatloaf, who from what I understand didn't take COVID-19 seriously, dying from a virus he didn't take seriously, that meets the requirements for inclusion of cause of death. Now with someone like maybe Colin Powell, I could see a solid argument being made for not including him dying of COVID-19 because of everything else he accomplished in his life. But on the flip side, that brings up other questions too because there's a multitude of other extremely well accomplished artists (Michael Jackson and Whitney Houston come to mind) that have their cause of death listed where a case could made against inclusion, but that's irrelevant in the discussion about Meatloaf. Just wanted to put my two cents in.--Rockchalk717 15:37, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

But when you have someone like Meatloaf, who from what I understand didn't take COVID-19 seriously, dying from a virus he didn't take seriously, that meets the requirements for inclusion of cause of death. The requirements for inclusion are not "should this person have known better or done something differently or been a better person". Saying they didn't take it seriously is not relevant to whether it should be included or not; the bar for inclusion is whether it's significant to their notability, and here it's not. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:55, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

References

RfC: Cause of death

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Should this article include |death_cause=? 01:39, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

• No. No cause of death has been officially released; the claim is based on unconfirmed reports in the tabloid source TMZ (see RSP listing), which has since been repeated by other organizations. The family has declined to provide cause of death, and due to the fraught nature of this issue this presents a BDP issue. The template documentation indicates that this parameter should "only be included when the cause of death has significance for the subject's notability", which certainly is not the case here. The unilateral addition should be undone. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:40, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

  Wait, so the pertinent article section can claim outright that his death was due to Covid, but the infobox can't? Genuinely asking. PraiseVivec (talk) 10:35, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

  That's not quite the situation here - the section currently indicates that no official cause has been released but some sources attribute it to COVID, which is more nuanced than claiming something outright. Certainly that section could also be improved, but that's not the scope of this RfC. Nikkimaria (talk) 12:57, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

• Yes. (summoned by bot), this article should include a cause of death. However, as Nikkimaria points out, the cause of death has not been confirmed, so the alleged cause has to be qualified as presently done in the section death. I actually thought the argument in the preceding section was about, which infobox to use, so that cause of death could appear in the infox person? If COVID19 was confirmed I think the infobox should contain the cause of death as it would be a notable element for Meat Loaf. BTW, I see no evidence that Nikkimaria edit warred or bullied.--Wuerzele (talk) 21:36, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

  Thanks Wuerzele. Just to clarify, the question is regarding the inclusion of the parameter in the infobox specifically rather than discussion of cause in the article more generally. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:32, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

• Yes. This question is out of line as this was already talked about above and has consensus for cause of death. There are several reliable references saying his death was due to COVID, and no they do not use TMZ. There was a compromise to leave in the family did not release an official cause of death. So that is why the death section is laid out like that. So there is already standing consensus for the cause of death and several reliable references in support. ContentEditman (talk) 21:53, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
• No. For inclusion in the infobox, it's my understanding that "should only be included when the cause of death has significance for the subject's notability" is a fairly high bar, and I don't see that as being met here. Paul Erik ^{(talk)(contribs)} 22:11, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
• No - Per Paul Erik's rational, which is correct - FlightTime (open channel) 22:26, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
• No His death cause has not been solidly confirmed in WP:RS, raising concerns over verification and WP:BDP. Additionally, Template:Infobox person says that the death cause parameter should not be included unless the death cause "has significance to the subjects notability." Infobox's should only include the most significant facts and this is not among them. Iamreallygoodatcheckers (talk) 00:28, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
• No Until the cause of death has been officially confirmed. Comatmebro (talk) 01:43, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
• No as per Nikkimaria. Connormah (talk) 19:56, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
• Weak Yes, it is notable enough but the cause of death should only be included once it is officially confirmed by a reliable source.13:44, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
• Yes - This is notable enough for the infobox... an anti-masker dying of COVID is the sort of thing you'd want to see at a glance. But it could be qualified until such time as there are official reports released. Fieari (talk) 03:30, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
• Yes Plenty of sources, already discussed. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 20:57, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.