Talk:Mandell Creighton

New file File:Mandell Creighton by Sir Hubert von Herkomer.jpg

Recently the file File:Mandell Creighton by Sir Hubert von Herkomer.jpg (right) was uploaded and it appears to be relevant to this article and not currently used by it. If you're interested and think it would be a useful addition, please feel free to include it. Dcoetzee 04:08, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Lookover...

• Lead -
  • You can probably drop the "Church of England priest" bit from the lead. I'd go with "...an English historian and Church of England Bishop of Peterborough and London."
    • Done – iridescent 01:30, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
  • Isn't "..to research a proposed book on the Papacy." a bit of overdetail on the lead? I'm assuming it never got published, so why is it so important it should be mentioned in the lead?
    • No, he eventually did write it - as it's the book he's remembered (if at all) for today, I think it warrants a mention in the lead (presumably, most people looking him up will know him as the author of History of the Papacy). – iridescent 01:30, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
      • Then probably should make it clear that it was written. As it is currently stated, it almost makes it sound like the book didn't get written. (and if it's that well known, probably should mention the title in the lead...) Ealdgyth - Talk 01:39, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
• Early life -
  • Okay, "graduated in 1866 with a First in Greats." is gobbledygook to this non-Englishperson. I see they are linked, but a quickie explanation won't hurt.
    • I've explained "First". Greats is one of those things that isn't really summarisable ("an extended four-year course in the Latin and Greek languages, archaeology, classical literature and philosophy and the history of Greece and Rome" is about as short as I can get it). How about a footnote? – iridescent 01:30, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
      • Footnotes work! Ealdgyth - Talk 01:39, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
  • More jargon - Oxford Movement? What were they most known for? Remember, linking is good, but it takes your reader away from the article which they dislike a lot.
    • Again, a tricky one to summarise; basically, believed that the church in England was the true Catholic church and the Papacy was the schism, and that the C of E should re-claim the pre-reformation liturgy. I'll see if Ottava can suggest anything. – iridescent 01:30, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
  • More jargon "High Table"?
    • It's an honor given to important people in an English college - it literally is the right to eat at a separate table that's raised above the others. I've rephrased it to "academics", which is slightly misleading (all academics are High Table, but not all HT are A) but still accurate. – iridescent 01:30, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
  • Do we need the details on Louise's birth?
    • We don't need, but I think it adds useful background; she wasn't a typical "in the background" wife but a major author and activist in her own right, and the interplay between the two is so significant (aside from his wife's biography of him, there are two full-length bios of him, both of which actually devote more space to her than to him). If it didn't breach our conventions, I'd have actually titled this Mandell and Louise Creighton. – iridescent 01:30, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
• Peterborough and London -
  • Really rough transition from "..and a novel, the Bloom of the Peach, under the pseudonum of Lois Hale." to "Mandell Creighton was a popular and conscientious..." When was Creighton consecrated? Where? When was he enthroned in his cathedral? (If you don't have access to this information, I can get it for you from the Handbook of British Chronology).
    • If you can get the actual dates, please do. All I can find are years; Life and Letters has the date of his invitation but not the actual enthronements. – iridescent 01:30, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
  • Need the translation date for him going to London also.
    • Ditto – iridescent 01:30, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
• The main thing I noted was that there is a bit much on his wife. Best to move the details on her life to her own article.
  • See above; normally I'd barely mention the wife, but I think she had such an impact on him (and vice versa) that she needs to be gone into quite heavily. She will get her own article at some point; at that time I'll see what if anything can be moved across. – iridescent 01:30, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Hope this helps. Ealdgyth - Talk 01:07, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

It does - thanks... – iridescent 01:30, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

The prose is still a bit rough, but most of the important facts seem in place, your sources are good, and the non-Brit jargon that flew in my face I've pointed out above. I'm sure Malleus will catch prose glitches, he's very very good at that. Looks pretty good! Thinking GA or FA for this one? Ealdgyth - Talk 01:44, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Maybe; at the moment there's a giant userspace slushpile from which I'm spinning off assorted parts when they become big enough to stand alone (including my favorite article title, Metropolitan Association for Befriending Young Servants, and my favorite footnote). I'll wait and see what's left when the dust settles; what I'm hoping to do is use the one on the house as the "trunk" (buildings have the advantage of not dying), with assorted redlinks and expanded stubs as the fruit. Ideally, what will be left once all the subtopics are split off is a "social history" article similar to Noel Park. – iridescent 01:57, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I've flipped 180° and submitted it GAC now. Although it's unfinished, I think it's at least 80% done, and meets all the GA criteria already, even before I incorporate your additional sources. – iridescent 2 15:46, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Handbook dates...

Okay, Handbook of British Chronology (you can find the bibliographical details in any of the bishop FAs I've done, it's the third edition). Mandell Creighton nominated 2 March 1891 to Peterborough, consecrated 25 April 1891. translated 15 Jan 1897 to London. He was nominated for London on 31 Dec 1896, and confirmed to London on 15 Jan 1897. The Peterborough dates are from page 265, the London dates from page 260. Ealdgyth - Talk 01:42, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks! Will put them in tomorrow. – iridescent 01:58, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

((subst:done-t}} – iridescent 14:45, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

One more thing...

Probably should cover more on his impact as a historian. Did he have famous students? Did his work inspire others? A bit more on how long he was editor of EHR wouldn't be bad, did he set editorial policy? Ealdgyth - Talk 12:24, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

I tried to follow roughly the proportions of "bishop-related"/"historian related" as his DNB article (subscription required if you're outside the UK), on the grounds that their assessment of the relative importance of each is probably fair. I'll see if I can fluff it out regarding EHR (he was editor for 5 years). I'm not aware of any famous students, or at least students who cited him as an influence (I'm sure he must have had some, but nobody seems to think they're worth mentioning). He was a Rede Lecturer and a Hulsean Lecturer, which if you know academic conventions of the period are a Big Deal but would be incomprehensible to 99.9% of the population. Lytton Strachey had intended Creighton as the fifth subject of Eminent Victorians, but abandoned the section and published the book with only four biographies instead of five - I've been trying to think of ways to incorporate that but it's difficult to explain why someone not being mentioned in a book is notable. – iridescent 13:18, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

I checked for him in Cantor's Inventing the Middle Ages but he's not mentioned. Another source you might hunt in is the EHR, they probably ran an obit. Check Transactions of the Royal Historical Society also, I'm not sure if they started publishing then or not. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:36, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

More sources...

RHS Bibliography for MC. The Pocock looks recent, and the Herklots might have useful information. The Strachey, McLachlan, and the Fish may also be useful. The two on the marriage also might work well. I may be able to swing by U of I soon and get some of these (I printed the interesting looking ones out for when I do so...) Ealdgyth - Talk 16:27, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

And Here about a house in London and here about a priory and here on Cambridge might also be useful. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:29, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

More from the 1911 EB here, and the article it refers to "Creighton and Stubbs" in Church Quarterly Review for Oct. 1905 might be useful. Stubbs is one of the giants in English history, if they were involved in some manner, that's worth including. here is a "reminiscene" on him, that might add some color. This and this mention him, not sure how much. This seems to imply that he was one of the first to use the phrase "English Renaissance". The subject of this article appears to have been a friend of Creighton's, so might be useful. Here he's mentioned again, not sure how much. This discusses a student of Creighton (and links Creighton with Stubbs again...). Ealdgyth - Talk 16:40, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Have worked those parts that seem appropriate in, along with a long footnote about John Kensit (longer than our actual article on the man!) to try to give some more background to the schism in the Church of England during the period. I don't think the relationship with Stubbs is worth mentioning; it doesn't appear, from what I can see, than would be expected of two academics working in the same field at the same time. Creighton's famous relationship, if there is one, would be that with Lord Acton, which spawned That Quote so beloved of agitators and rabble-rousers (1528 usages on Wikipedia policy and talk pages at the time of writing!), and is duly covered in the article.

In my opinion, this is at its natural limit; all important aspects are covered, and while it can be expanded further, I think it would be adding trivia and minutiae for the sake of expansion. Our biographical articles should be broad overviews, not in-depth analyses, and I think this now covers everything the general reader would want to know about him. – iridescent 14:09, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Louise von Glehn

Do we need the redlink to Louise? I've been reading wp:redlink and I can't see whether the link fulfils the criteria for being left in, or should be removed. She does have most of a paragraph to herself here ... is she independently notable and is there enough verifiable information on her to sustain her own article, or is she best left being dealt with here? And if we do need one redlink, do we really need two? Best wishes, DBaK (talk) 23:00, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Oh dear, I hadn't realized that there was a humongous FAC discussion going on: sorry. I will not hold my breath for a reply to this while the FAC process is going on. DBaK (talk) 23:07, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

I'd say an unqualified yes, she's a valid redlink. She was a noted historian, author and activist in her own right - see her DNB entry - and by Wikipedia's standards certainly ought to have an article. – iridescent 2 12:55, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks very much for that. Best wishes DBaK (talk) 23:01, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Rewrite

I am rewriting the article, making it more accurate, and using a better set of sources. (I had earlier been writing the article on my subpage User:Fowler&fowler/Mandell_Creighton.) The page will necessarily be in an unfinished state (and too long for its own good) while I do this. Please bear with me. Whatever is of value in the previous version, will be incorporated into the article later. The previous version itself was created in mainspace on 11 September 2008 in one major rewrite of a still earlier version, which while being poorly sourced, and perhaps only minimally paraphrased from the 1911 Britannica, was in some respects more accurate. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 08:52, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Informal Peer Review

Hi! I was asked to conduct an informal peer review, and have printed the FAC and the article as of now. I'll be responding here in a bit. Fifelfoo (talk) 23:14, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Prose review (FAC December 2011)

It's a pity that the above informal PR never took place. I am carrying out a prose review while the article's FAC proceeds. Here are some issues from the earlier sections:-

Lead

• "as well" is inelegant and unnecessary — Brianboulton (15:23, 26 December 2011), — (continues after insertion below.)
  •  Done
• "author and future women's suffrage activist Louise Creighton"; English language style guides erquire a "the" before such descriptions, to avoid lapses into tabloidese (I must admit this is a common fault in my own writing and I'm constantly being picked up on it)— Brianboulton (15:23, 26 December 2011), — (continues after insertion below.)
  •  Done
• "between the two of them" - the words "the two of" are redundant. "Between" implies two persons.— Brianboulton (15:23, 26 December 2011), — (continues after insertion below.)
  •  Done The school primers were apparently written jointly (and there were just over a dozen of them, not two); so I'm changing that instance of "between the two of them" to "together," but will change the second instance (below) as you suggest. I knew it sounded awkward, but couldn't come up with the right expression. Thanks very much, by the way, for doing this. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:50, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Early childhood, 1843–1857

• Redundant commas in 2nd paragraph, after "absence" and "childhood"— Brianboulton (15:23, 26 December 2011), — (continues after insertion below.)
  •  Done
• "and decided to accept" → "and decided to accept him".— Brianboulton (15:23, 26 December 2011), — (continues after insertion below.)
  •  Done ... and I had only just removed the "him" in a Hemingway-esque flourish.  :) Reinstated. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:00, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Durham Grammar School, 1858–1862

• eleventh-century" as an adjective requires a hyphen— Brianboulton (15:23, 26 December 2011), — (continues after insertion below.)
  •  Done
• Redundant comma after "a classical scholar"— Brianboulton (15:23, 26 December 2011), — (continues after insertion below.)
  •  Done
• This sentence needs attention: "His tours of the countryside, often with companions, a pastime he was to indulge in for the rest of his life, covered over twenty miles a day, lasted several days, and gave him many opportunities to exercise his abiding curiosity in the local botany and architecture." It is at present far too long, far too many subclauses. Needs redrafting in the form of at least two shorter sentences.— Brianboulton (15:23, 26 December 2011), — (continues after insertion below.)
  •  Done Split into three sentences. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:22, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Oxford undergraduate, 1862–1866

• Second sentence: the comma should be shifted to after "ask his father". — Brianboulton (15:23, 26 December 2011), — (continues after insertion below.)
  •  Done
• "...walks. Walking..." should be avoided.— Brianboulton (15:23, 26 December 2011), — (continues after insertion below.)
  •  Done Changed to: "He continued to go on walks. These, especially around Oxford for a few hours in the late afternoon, were popular among many ..."

Teaching and marriage, 1867–1874

• "...the new teaching staff were more youthful." More youthful than...? — Brianboulton (15:23, 26 December 2011), — (continues after insertion below.)
  • :) This took me more time to fix than anything else. I had incorrectly paraphrased Covert. I've now rewritten the first few sentences.
• "He succeeded to a degree." Perhaps the word "degree" should be avoided, in this context?— Brianboulton (15:23, 26 December 2011), — (continues after insertion below.)
  •  Done Removed the sentence altogether. Also, moved around a paragraph or two for more coherence.
• "In four years of teaching, his salary had more than doubled" → "After four years of teaching..."— Brianboulton (15:23, 26 December 2011), — (continues after insertion below.)
  •  Done
• "future statesman" → "the future statesman" (see above) — Brianboulton (15:23, 26 December 2011), — (continues after insertion below.)
  •  Done
• "He had also become an admirer of Walter Pater..." → "He also became an admirer of Walter Pater..." — Brianboulton (15:23, 26 December 2011), — (continues after insertion below.)
  •  Done
• ".. he noticed his friend, and future author, Humphry Ward talking.." → "...he noticed his friend, the future author Humphry Ward, talking..."
  •  Done
• "the scarf aroused his interest enough to ask Ward about the woman..." The scarf asked about the woman? Insert "for him" after "enough". And "it turned out" later in the sentence, is somewhat magaziney and inappropriate. — Brianboulton (15:23, 26 December 2011), — (continues after insertion below.)
  •  Done
• "Valentines Day" → "Valentine's Day" — Brianboulton (15:23, 26 December 2011), — (continues after insertion below.)
  •  Done
• "critic Matthew Arnold" per previous — Brianboulton (15:23, 26 December 2011), — (continues after insertion below.)
  •  Done Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:29, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Vicar of Embleton, 1875–1884

• "housebound" is one word
  •  Done
• Not sure about "finalised the topic". It has a slight management-speak flavour, and I'm not altogether sure what it means; that he confirmed his intention to make the Renaissance popes the subject of his life's research?
  • :) True. Changed to: "that Creighton made firm his intention to study the Renaissance popes for his life's research."
• Another intrusive "as well"
  •  Done This has to be irritating for you. I'll try to read ahead and bump off other occurrences.
• If the article is in British English, we don't say "until age fourteen", we say "until the age of fourteen"
  • :) Yup, definitely US and Canadian construction. Changed.  Done
• "He was also elected to local government bodies such as the Board of Guardians, which enacted poor laws in the region, as well as the local sanitary authority" Suggest replace "as well as" with "and to"
  •  Done
• "between the two of them" occurs again
  •  Done I'm definitely beginning to feel embarrassed.  :) Look forward to more superb comments! Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:30, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

I will continue to post here. Brianboulton (talk) 15:23, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

A bit more:-

Vicar of Embleton, 1875–1884

• "Creighton proposed that the turbulence of the reformation became inevitable when the Popes obstructed the milder parliamentary reforms that had been proposed earlier." "Proposed" twice in the same sentence means some rephrasing advised
  •  Done Replaced with "advocated earlier"
• Prefacing a quotation with "said one woman" is OK in ordinary prose, but maybe a little quirky or novelistic in style for an encyclopedia?
  • :)  Done

Cambridge professor, 1885–1891

• "Although Creighton did not take direct part" → "Although Creighton did not take a direct part..."
  •  Done
• "a compromise was reached emphasizing..." → "a compromise was reached that emphasized..."
  •  Done
• "he spoke eloquently" - delete the POV
  •  Done
• Large numbers are best expressed numerically, i.e. "250th" rather than "two hundred and fiftieth"
  •  Done
• "Acton penned three memorable sentences" again POV
  •  Done Also, "dictum" changed to "epigram."

Bishop of Peterborough, 1891–1896

• Perhaps Covert should be described as a biographer rather than just "author"?
  •  Done
• "as it would turn out" is unnecessary padding. In any event, the sentence containing this needs attention – very unwieldly as it stands: "A year earlier, in 1894, the fifth, and as it would turn out, the last, volume of Creighton's History of Papacy in the Period of Reformation, entitled The German Revolt, 1517–1527 and covering the history up to the Sack of Rome in 1527, was published by Longman."
  • :)  Done
• Another maxi-sentence that should be split: "Creighton was chosen after the Archbishop of Canterbury, Edward White Benson, begged off going to the event citing ill-health, and after the same excuse was offered for Randall Davidson, the Bishop of Winchester, who as Prelate of the Order of the Garter was the usual official stand in
  •  Done

Bishop of London, 1897–1901

• Benson was introduced in all his glory at the end of the previous section. We don't need that detail again: "Archbishop Benson" will do.
  •  Done Thanks again, Brian. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:39, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Continuing... Brianboulton (talk) 22:16, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Final prose comments

Bishop of London, 1897–1901

• General (non-prose) point: do we need the caricature and the portrait - especially as, with the boxed quotation on the right, there is severe text squeezing
  • Removing caricature.  Done
• De-italicise Voluntary School Bill of 1897
  •  Done
• "Some thirty years earlier..." → "Almost thirty years earlier..." ("Some" implies "at least")
  • Hmm. I'm happy to remove it (on account of its informal register), but that I've never heard. See for example OED: 9a Used with numbers to indicate an approximate amount or estimate, and passing into an adv. with the sense ‘about, nearly, approximately’. examples: 1836 J. W. Carlyle Lett. I. 56 We expect John Carlyle in some ten days. Also, Websters Unabridged: 1 : ABOUT -- usually used before a numeral <a village of some eighty houses> <some two or three persons>
• It should be possible to explain how Creighton became a member of the House of Lords. Otherwise, readers may wonder how he came to be addressing it. To avoid disrupting the text, this information could be incorporated into a footnote.
  • I see, I didn't realize that you had to be a member in order to address. Will add the note later, when I have more information and time.
• "practice which indicated" → "practices which indicated"
  • Sorry!  Done
• Lose the redundant comma before "John Kensit", another one after "collection of national churches", and those either side of "what he termed".
  • Now, how did I manage to put commas on either side of "what he termed?" :)  Done
• Per the quote, did he actually say "and that any additional service which are used", thus pluralising "service" which is indubitably singular? Sham on him if he did; suggest give it a [sic].
  • :) No, as usual, shame on me.  :)  Done
• Might be worth mentioning that Kensit was a leading light of the Protestant Truth Society. I seem to recall that he and his organisation tried to bully Lang over the same issues.
  • Will add this later. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:40, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

Legacy

• I don't think the Archbishop did the actual interring, although he led the service.
  • :) Will fix later.  Not done
• I am against the inclusion of longish (100w+) direct quotations unless they are absolutely crucial. This one fro Phillipa Levine doesn't seem to meet that standard; a shorter paraphrase would, I believe, be preferable.
  • Agree. It is long. Will paraphrase later  Not done
• "Overall, Creighton and his peers, left a heterogeneous legacy." I don't really know what this means; in any event, is it an opinion or did a source say it?
  • Good point. Will look into later.  Not done
• "Lord Acton would use" or "Lord Acton used" ?
  • I want "would use," but if you think it is causing confusion, please let me know.  Not done
• "The emphasis on concreteness and reality would remain a feature of his career as a prelate." Whose opinion?
  • :) Good point. Will fix later.  Not done
• "During his lifetime Creighton had received honorary doctorates". Delete "had"
  •  Done Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:08, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Character

• "espied" is a little twee and old-fashioned for a modern encyclopedia
  • Haha. You see I was immersed in the 1870s. (But it was a little old fashioned even then ...)  Done
• I'm not altogether comfortable with the implied spectrum "radical evangelicals and conservative Anglo-Catholics". Evangelicals have usually tended towards very conservative social views. On the other hand, Anglo-catholicism has sometimes been allied to political radicalism - as I discovered when I studied ritualism in the Victorian Church of England. So maybe it's less simple than it seems.
  • You are probably right. Will have to await more reading on my part.  Not done
• Consider swapping the order of the second and third paragraphs, to bring the article to, perhaps, a slightly more pognant conclusion.
  • Nice idea.  Done

That's me done. I hope this has been helpful. I'll look forward to looking again, when the article is re-presented at FAC. Brianboulton (talk) 00:23, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the time (and the trouble!) to conduct such a thorough review. I will be traveling for the next couple of months, but will try to set aside an hour or two several times a week for the article (especially the sourcing issues). Since I won't have ready access to books, I'll be relying on the longish bibliography I've added below (which is available for limited preview on Google books). Please feel free to add anything you think is appropriate directly to the article. Regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:28, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Images

I discovered that some of the pictures we thought had uncertain copyright have in fact appeared in the two volumes: Louise Creighton (1904), Life and letters of Mandell Creighton, volume 1, Longmans, Green, Creighton, Louise (1904), Life and letters of Mandell Creighton, volume 2, Longmans, Green. I will be adding more info here soon. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:36, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Suggestions

I must admit that this article is so much improved since I last touched it that I'm nervous about contributing directly. I did wonder, though, if the following should be considered:

1. There is no link in the text to the vicarage building, Embleton Tower. There is, correctly, a link there from the photo caption; since the text mentions the vicarage, the building, pele towers an ting might it not be good if it also linked to the building's own article?
2. The (rather good) village hall in Embleton is called the Creighton Memorial Hall. I don't know when this happened or what the whole story is, but I feel it may be noteworthy in terms of his relationship with the village ... at least it draws a contrast with the villager's 'no good ... no harm' comment!
3. Similarly, but perhaps less excitingly, there are a number of things probably or definitely named after him in London. For example there are roads in (at least) E6, N2, W12, NW6, N17, and W5. This is certainly a type of legacy which differs from a foundation, lecture, scholarship or whatever but I am not sure that it is of no value, representing, perhaps, a certain type of er er civic recognition. What do you think?

Best wishes, DBaK (talk) 14:38, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. I like the ideas!

1. I apparently wikified the Embleton Tower page two years ago, and then forgot all about it. I see that user:Rosiestep has done a lot of work there recently. Will do.

2. Will look for refs for Creighton Memorial Hall. If you have any, please post.

3 Do you have any refs for the roads? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:15, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Question: DBaK, do you know if this Creighton Road in London is named after Mandell Creighton? It has the right (i.e. uploadable to WP) licensing on Flickr. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:31, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

To do list

1. Expand lead to be more representative of article.
2. Incorporate suggestions by DBaK in Legacy section.
3. Look for new refs that might have appeared since October 2009. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:09, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

References published after publication of Covert's biography

James Covert's A Victorian Marriage: Mandell and Louise Creighton is the only modern biography of Creighton. It was published in 2000 (and has preface dated December 1999). Although I had thought I had scoured the literature for other authors (especially ones published after 2000), I apparently hadn't. Most (read three-quarters) modern references to Creighton are perfunctory ones which (perfunctorily) mention Acton's remark, "Power corrupts ...," and (more perfunctorily) mention Creighton as the recipient of it. Consequently, I had to block out "Acton" in the binary search. Here then is a list for the period 1999 to 2007. I will add the more recent ones later. Please feel free to add others. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:46, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

PS This is not a list generated by a computer program though it might seem like one.  :) I had to go through each reference. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:50, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

PPS I know this is an overkill, but it might be good to have the refs in one place. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:57, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Books published after 1 January 1999

• Adam, Will (1 November 2011), Legal Flexibility and the Mission of the Church: Dispensation and Economy in Ecclesiastical Law, Ashgate Publishing, Ltd., pp. 106–, ISBN 978-1-4094-2055-2
• Avis, Paul D. L. (October 2002), Anglicanism and the Christian Church: theological resources in historical perspective, Continuum International Publishing Group, pp. 335–, ISBN 978-0-567-08745-4
• Avis, Paul D. L. (1 April 2006), Beyond the Reformation?: authority, primacy and unity in the conciliar tradition, Continuum International Publishing Group, pp. 154–, ISBN 978-0-567-08399-9
• Beales, Derek; Best, Geoffrey (3 November 2005), History Society Church, Cambridge University Press, pp. 91–, ISBN 978-0-521-02189-0
• Bentley, Michael (8 August 2002), "Victorian historians and the larger hope", in Michael Bentley (ed.), Public and Private Doctrine: Essays in British History Presented to Maurice Cowling, Cambridge University Press, pp. 133–, ISBN 978-0-521-52217-5
• Bentley, Michael (2005), Modernizing England's past: English historiography in the age of modernism, 1870-1970, Cambridge University Press, pp. 198–, ISBN 978-0-521-60266-2
• Brundage, Anthony; Cosgrove, Richard A. (2007), The great tradition: constitutional history and national identity in Britain and the United States, 1870-1960, Stanford University Press, pp. 79–, ISBN 978-0-8047-5686-0, retrieved 29 December 2011
• Bush, Julia (24 November 2007), Women against the vote: female anti-suffragism in Britain, Oxford University Press, pp. 38–, ISBN 978-0-19-924877-3
• Chance, Jane (2005), Women medievalists and the academy, Univ of Wisconsin Press, pp. 69–, ISBN 978-0-299-20750-2
• Daunton, Martin J.; Bernhard Rieger (1 January 2001), Meanings of modernity: Britain from the late-Victorian era to World War II, Berg, pp. 128–, ISBN 978-1-85973-402-5
• Daunton, Martin J.; British Academy (4 August 2005), The organisation of knowledge in Victorian Britain, Oxford University Press, pp. 191–, ISBN 978-0-19-726326-6
• Daunton, Martin J. (23 August 2007), Wealth and welfare: an economic and social history of Britain, 1851-1951, Oxford University Press, pp. 340–, ISBN 978-0-19-873209-9, retrieved 29 December 2011
• Dellheim, Charles (25 March 2004), The Face of the Past: The Preservation of the Medieval Inheritance in Victorian England, Cambridge University Press, pp. 70–, ISBN 978-0-521-60276-1
• Flanders, Judith (2003), Inside the Victorian home: a portrait of domestic life in Victorian England, W. W. Norton & Company, pp. 15–, ISBN 978-0-393-05209-1
• Gosse, Edmund (17 August 2010) [1913], Collected Essays: Portraits and Sketches, BoD – Books on Demand, pp. 163–, ISBN 978-3-86741-431-9, retrieved 29 December 2011
• Grimley, Matthew (19 August 2004), Citizenship, community, and the Church of England: liberal Anglican theories of the state between the wars, Oxford University Press, pp. 34–, ISBN 978-0-19-927089-7
• Hurren, Elizabeth T.; Royal Historical Society (Great Britain) (2007), Protesting about pauperism: poverty, politics and poor relief in late-Victorian England, 1870-1900, Boydell & Brewer, pp. 228–, ISBN 978-0-86193-292-4, retrieved 29 December 2011
• Kadish, Alon (9 December 2010), Historians, Economists and Economic History, Taylor & Francis, pp. 33–, ISBN 978-0-415-61388-0, retrieved 29 December 2011
• Keene, Derek; Saint, Andrew (2004), St Paul's: the Cathedral Church of London, 604-2004, Yale University Press, pp. 291–, ISBN 978-0-300-09276-9
• Kelley, Donald R. (11 March 2003), Fortunes of history: historical inquiry from Herder to Huizinga, Yale University Press, pp. 233–, ISBN 978-0-300-09578-4
• Morton, Peter (16 April 2005), The busiest man in England: Grant Allen and the writing trade, 1875-1900, Macmillan, pp. 202–, ISBN 978-1-4039-6626-1
• Pelikan, Jaroslav (12 December 2005), Credo: Historical and Theological Guide to Creeds and Confessions of Faith in the Christian Tradition, Yale University Press, pp. 366–, ISBN 978-0-300-10974-0
• Levine, Philippa (13 February 2003), The Amateur and the Professional: Antiquarians, Historians and Archaeologists in Victorian England 1838-1886, Cambridge University Press, pp. 164–, ISBN 978-0-521-53050-7
• McKitterick, David (6 September 2004), A History of Cambridge University Press: New worlds for learning, 1873-1972, Cambridge University Press, pp. 39–, ISBN 978-0-521-30803-8
• Newsome, David (November 1999), The Victorian World Picture, Rutgers University Press, pp. 187–, ISBN 978-0-8135-2758-1
• Orens, John (26 August 2003), Stewart Headlam's radical Anglicanism: the Mass, the masses, and the music hall, University of Illinois Press, pp. 144–, ISBN 978-0-252-02824-3
• Ramsey, Michael; Dales, Douglas (30 September 2005), Glory descending: Michael Ramsey and his writings, Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing, pp. 200–, ISBN 978-0-8028-3039-5
• Robbins, Keith (15 November 2008), England, Ireland, Scotland, Wales: the Christian Church, 1900-2000, Oxford University Press, pp. 32–, ISBN 978-0-19-826371-5
• Sanders, Charles Richard (1 January 2002), "Lytton Strachey's Conception of Biography", in Shiv K. Kumar (ed.), British Victorian literature: critical assessments, Atlantic Publishers & Dist, pp. 422–, ISBN 978-81-269-0117-3
• Shuter, William F. (15 September 2005), Rereading Walter Pater, Cambridge University Press, pp. 80–, ISBN 978-0-521-01981-1
• Starkey, David (1 December 2001), Elizabeth: The Struggle for the Throne, HarperCollins, pp. 83–, ISBN 978-0-06-095951-7
• Steele, E. D. (6 April 2001), Lord Salisbury: a political biography, Routledge, pp. 312–, ISBN 978-0-415-25761-9
• Taylor, Miles (13 November 2007), Southampton: gateway to the British Empire, I.B.Tauris, pp. 97–, ISBN 978-1-84511-032-1
• Tonn, Joan C. (10 April 2003), Mary P. Follett: creating democracy, transforming management, Yale University Press, pp. 60–, ISBN 978-0-300-09621-7
• Tosh, John; Royal Historical Society (10 February 2003), "Gentlemanly Politeness and Manly Simplicity in Victorian England", Transactions of the Royal Historical Society: Volume 12: Sixth Series, Cambridge University Press, pp. 465–, ISBN 978-0-521-81561-1
• Tosh, John (22 May 2007), A Man's Place: Masculinity and the Middle-Class Home in Victorian England, Yale University Press, pp. 215–, ISBN 978-0-300-12362-3
• Turner, James (2002), The Liberal Education of Charles Eliot Norton, JHU Press, pp. 321–, ISBN 978-0-8018-7108-5
• Walker, Hugh (16 June 2011), The Literature of the Victorian Era, Cambridge University Press, pp. 866–, ISBN 978-1-107-60048-5
• Walker, Hugh (18 November 2011), Outlines of Victorian Literature, Cambridge University Press, pp. 176–, ISBN 978-1-107-60009-6
• Waller, Philip J. (29 June 2006), Writers, readers, and reputations: literary life in Britain, 1870-1918, Oxford University Press, pp. 208–, ISBN 978-0-19-820677-4, retrieved 29 December 2011
• Williams, Rowan (15 July 2005), Why study the past?: the quest for the historical church, Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing, pp. 122–, ISBN 978-0-8028-2990-0
• Woolf, Daniel (21 March 2011), A Global History of History, Cambridge University Press, pp. 375–, ISBN 978-0-521-69908-2

Books published before Covert's book

Books published between 1980 and 1998

• Brooke, Christopher (29 January 1993), A history of the University of Cambridge, Cambridge University Press, pp. 146–, ISBN 978-0-521-34350-3
• Brundage, Anthony (1994), The people's historian: John Richard Green and the writing of history in Victorian England, Greenwood Publishing Group, pp. 156–, ISBN 978-0-313-27954-6, retrieved 29 December 2011
• Engel, A. J. (1983), From clergyman to don: the rise of the academic profession in nineteenth-century Oxford, Oxford University Press, ISBN 978-0-19-822606-2
• Fallows, W. G. (1964), Mandell Creighton and the English Church, Oxford University Press
• Israel, Kali (31 December 1998), Names and stories: Emilia Dilke and Victorian culture, Oxford University Press, pp. 338–, ISBN 978-0-19-512275-6
• Jones, Dorothy Richardson (July 1992), "King of critics": George Saintsbury, 1845-1933, critic, journalist, historian, professor, University of Michigan Press, pp. 18–, ISBN 978-0-472-10316-4
• Lowenthal, David (1998), The heritage crusade and the spoils of history, Cambridge University Press, pp. 151–, ISBN 978-0-521-63562-2
• Neville, Graham (1998), Radical churchman: Edward Lee Hicks and the new liberalism, Oxford University Press, pp. 42–, ISBN 978-0-19-826977-9
• Parry, J. P. (31 March 1989), Democracy and religion: Gladstone and the Liberal Party, 1867-1875, Cambridge University Press, pp. 70–, ISBN 978-0-521-36783-7
• Perkin, Joan (1995), Victorian women, NYU Press, pp. 61–, ISBN 978-0-8147-6625-5
• Robbins, Keith (1993), History, religion, and identity in modern Britain, Continuum International Publishing Group, pp. 89–, ISBN 978-1-85285-101-9
• Robbins, Keith (1994), Politicians, diplomacy, and war in modern British history, Continuum International Publishing Group, pp. 165–, ISBN 978-1-85285-111-8
• Slee, Peter R. H. (1986), Learning and a liberal education: the study of modern history in the universities of Oxford, Cambridge, and Manchester, 1800-1914, Manchester University Press ND, pp. 77–, ISBN 978-0-7190-1896-1
• Smith, Bonnie G. (1998), The gender of history: men, women, and historical practice, Harvard University Press, pp. 126–, ISBN 978-0-674-34181-4
• Soffer, Reba N. (1 January 1995), Discipline and power: the university, history, and the making of an English elite, 1870-1930, Stanford University Press, pp. 136–, ISBN 978-0-8047-2383-1
• Waller, Philip J. (1983), Town, city, and nation: England, 1850-1914, Oxford University Press, pp. 199–, ISBN 978-0-19-289163-1
• Wormell, Deborah (1980), Sir John Seeley and the uses of history, CUP Archive, pp. 8–, ISBN 978-0-521-22720-9

Really old books (now primary sources)

• Gosse, Edmund (17 August 2010) [1913], Collected Essays: Portraits and Sketches, BoD – Books on Demand, pp. 163–, ISBN 978-3-86741-431-9, retrieved 29 December 2011
• Strachey, Lytton (1931), Portraits in miniature: and other essays, Harcourt, Brace

Noting that ...

... I will be editing the article again after eight years! I will start by changing some of the citations, lightening some of the load on Covert's book. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:35, 1 February 2020 (UTC)

Sources appearing after 2011, the year of the last FAC appearance

• Hesketh, Ian (2015), The Science of History in Victorian Britain: Making the Past Speak, Routledge, pp. 185–, ISBN 978-1-317-32296-2
• Horton, Peter; Zon, Bennett (2019), Nineteenth-Century British Music Studies, Routledge, pp. 333–, ISBN 978-0-429-62717-0
• Clark, G Kitson (2019), Churchmen and the Condition of England 1832-1885: A study in the development of social ideas and practice from the Old Regime to the Modern State, Routledge, pp. 246–, ISBN 978-1-00-063944-5
• Demoor, Marysa (2017), Their Fair Share: Women, Power and Criticism in the Athenaeum, from Millicent Garrett Fawcett to Katherine Mansfield, 1870–1920, Routledge, pp. 90–, ISBN 978-1-315-36339-4
• Nicholls, David (2016), The Pluralist State: The Political Ideas of J.N. Figgis and his Contemporaries, Springer, ISBN 978-1-349-23598-8
• Victorian Poetry, West Virginia University, 2012, p. 47
• Wilson, A. N. (2012), The Elizabethans, Farrar, Straus and Giroux, pp. 74–, ISBN 978-1-4668-1619-0
• Wilson, A. N. (2014), Victoria: A Life, Penguin, pp. 427–, ISBN 978-0-698-17005-6

Another stab at improving this article

As I have indicated to user:Tim riley in this post on his talk page, I will spend as much as I can of in August and September improving this article. Not having edited the article in a number of years, I will start with something easy, I hope, and this is reducing its disproportionate reliance on James Covert's biography of Mandell and Louise Creighton, A Victorian Marriage: Mandell and Louise Creighton. I plan to do this by using W. G. Fallows Mandell Creighton and the English Church, Oxford, 1964 and O. M. D. Crowder's biography of MC in the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography and redistributing some of the load. So wish me luck. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 01:21, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

• At this stage of writing, which involves changing some citations but also bringing in content from the two books mentioned above, there will necessarily be some expansion. Only when the novel content from these authors has been included, can I make the decision about what is important in this article and how to pare it down, engage in thoughful precis writing. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:35, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Excellent news and yes I do wish you luck! As you know I have a passing interest in this gentleman due to my Muswell Hill and Embleton connections. (Well actually I suppose I have a vague Merton connection too, but Mandell has never yet come up there.) I will watch with interest.

Question: is it OK if I fiddle with trivial little things, on the understanding that your reverting me would be very unlikely to lead to fisticuffs, or would you prefer that I treat it like a properly elevated candidate for WikiSaintHood™ and bring all concerns to this Talk page? Please advise. Cheers DBaK (talk) 22:01, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

:) Your edits would be absolutely welcome. Delighted to hear. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:31, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks! DBaK (talk) 23:54, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Nearby

The "London Dude" section concludes with A nearby road, Creighton Avenue, laid out in 1900, was named after him. (And yes I am sorry if my faffing with the layout of that last link, which maybe should not be a straight external link anyway, has been a pain.) My worry here is that I can't see what it's nearby to ... it is, as it happens, very near to my home, but I don't think I quite qualify as a Wikipedia reference point. Have I missed it somewhere, that he was living locally at the time? If I have please explain and slap me gently round the head. Otherwise I fear that it seems to depend on where he was Bishop of, which is a bit of a stretch for the whole city being nearby to Creighton Avenue.

Thanks, and sorry if (as usual) I am somehow missing the point. Best to all, DBaK (talk) 14:18, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

I defer to user:Tim riley on this. Fulham Palace was his country home. His episcopal residence was London House in St James Square, but as it was being renovated, he lived in Fulham Palace during his first year, not moving to LH until 1898. According to Louise Creighton, that is; see here. The seat of the Bishop of London is St Pauls. Wikipedia has a London House, Aldersgate Street, doesn't seem to be near St James Square. From across the pond this is the best I can do. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:44, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for that. You are doing a very fine job from across the pond! For what it is worth, I haven't yet seen anything that fits "nearby", like he had a nice haçienda in Highgate or a flat in Finchley or even an apartment in 'Ackney. So I sort of think that "nearby" shouldn't stay in unless we can find some evidence for it, though I worry about how to reword round it.

In the meantime, I don't want to start another possibly-unattributable hare running, but I had acquired from somewhere the belief that that area was laid out over ground previously owned by the Bishops of London, which perhaps would make Creighton a prime candidate for a road name, especially given the date of his death? But I am not sure from where I got this ... I might have a dig around but please do not hold your breath. Cheers, DBaK (talk) 12:09, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Sounds good.

As you probably know, that sentence was added in mid-January 2021, around the time of

Mandell Creighton's 120 death anniversary.

You could call St Paul's or Fulham Palace museum and ask them if Creighton had a private home near Muswell Hill. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:34, 13 August 2024 (UTC)