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Archive 1Archive 2

Macron usage

Should macrons be used in the English language spellings of Maori words on English pages or only on truely Maori language pages?

  • The Maori Language Commission is rather vague on this issue.

Which is preferred usage?

  1. Māori or
  2. Maori.

Your thoughts are invited. -- kiwiinapanic 12:51 Dec 30, 2002 (UTC)

thanks for the invitation, but I don't feel qualified in this area to make a judgement -- Tarquin 14:23 Dec 30, 2002 (UTC)

In my opinion, macrons should always be used correctly when writing Maori language, or writing about Maori language. There are many words where the length of the vowels makes a difference.

However, where the words are Maori words that have been imported into English, I don't think macrons are always necessary. For example, kowhai should be kōwhai, but when writing about the tree in English, the former is unambiguous. A note on correct Maori spelling and pronunciation on the relevant page would be good in any case. -- carey

I'd like to use them but aren't sure how to type them in. How do you manage to get them to show up on this page for example? Lisiate 00:36 Feb 28, 2003 (UTC) 

For: Ā ā Ē ē Ī ī Ō ō Ū ū
Type: Ā ā Ē ē Ī ī Ō ō Ū ū
--Brion

Cheers for that Lisiate 20:37 Feb 28, 2003 (UTC)

  • Microsoft have produced a simple fix (using the " ` " symbol - below the tilde) available on moderately advanced Windows systems; see [spamlisted link removed] - it needs one of these:
    • Windows 2000 Professional or Server with a Pentium 133 MHz or higher processor and 128 MB of RAM
    • Windows XP Home Edition or Professional with a Pentium 233 MHz or higher processor and 128MB of RAM
Robin Patterson 05:40, 1 May 2004 (UTC)
  • Windows XP/2000 users can also download Māori keyboard definitions from http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~timw/maorikb/
    • These keyboard definitions use the AltGr (Right Alt) key instead of using the "`" key. TimW 10:30 Nov 11 2004 (UTC)


The other possibility is to double the vowel, so Maori(macron on the a) becomes Maaori. This is often used and is felt by some to be preferable, it may be a matter of regional variation, among the different iwi. Ping

I think maybe it's more a variation between different academic institutions. BP

The Reed Dictionary of Māori place names says this in the intro: "The student of Māori, [...] is still left with the problem of correct vowel length. For example, mata may be pronounced as maataa, mataa or mata, depending upon the intended meaning. Double vowels have been used in the past (in Te Kooti, for example), but the placement of a macron is now generally recognised as the best way to indicate a lengthened vowel sound." I would say to use them, as they change pronunciation — and thus, the meaning. We include the accents in French words and such as well. porge 04:32, Sep 20, 2004 (UTC) See also New Zealand Government Web Guidelines porge 23:52, Jan 1, 2005 (UTC)

  • It is usual to use double vowels in compound words, such as Mataatua and Tokaanu, and in words derived from English such as Te Kooti and Waaka. Reed was a dedicated amateur, but not an expert (his derivation of placenames was often fanciful or sheer guesswork). --Hugh7 09:16, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

I think the variant without a macron, Maori, should be mentioned at the beginning, since it is still widely used. -- Hugh7 04:56, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

I think that the macrons should be used in this article as it is a text on the language, and beginners need to know vowel length etc. Tīmoti Kāretu says in the preface to K.T. Harawira's work Teach yourself Māori that it is “…irresponsible of any text not to indicate vowel length…” This article is essentially a text, so I say yes…include the macrons. BKalesti 17:45, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Ng sound

I heard a Kiwi historian a few days ago, but for some reason, I couldn't catch how she pronounced initial ng, as in Ngai, in Anglicized pronunciation of Maori (even though she said it a dozen times). Because ng, as an initial one, is not part of Canadian English and needs to have an additional vowel attached to it, schwa or /i/, I believe. So it became [@N]. Is that how it's done in New Zealand English too? The rendering of --Menchi 09:32 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)

The Ng sound does have an English equivalent: like ng in the word "bang", but obviously dropping the first two letters. The ng sound is just the same as in 'singing', the only difference is that it occurs word-initially. To do that, say "song", then "song-ong-ong-ong..." then re-think that as "-ngo-ngo-ngo-ngo-...", then slow it down till you're saying "Ngo. Ngo...." Likewise "singing" for "ngi". Unfortunately there aren't any English words for the long a sound, but now you've got the idea, it should come easily. -- Hugh7 22:54, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Hugh is right, but if you come from Northern England it is important to note that the 'ng' sound that he referred to here has no hard 'g' as in the dialects of North England. To answer user Menchi's question, many New Zealand English speakers pronounce 'ng' at the beginning of words as if it were 'n'. Kahuroa 08:21, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

There's a problem with such people as Cockneys (Londoners) too. Typically they don't aspirate the 'ng' in words such as 'sing' at all. It seems to me that it is all in how one holds one's tongue in the roof of the mouth. The correct sound is made with about half of the tongue (from the tip back) lightly pressing the roof of the mouth. The incorrect 'n' sound that Kahuroa describes above is done by just pressing the tip to the roof of the forward (or hard) palate. Lin

Other letters

Similarly, the other strange letter is written as Wh and pronounced as a slightly aspirated FFFF; very similar to the wh sound as used in Aberdeen and other areas of Scotland where "what's that" is pronounced s "fit's thaat" Until about 20 years ago the maori Wh was usually pronounced by the media as a WWW but in recent years there has been a strong effort to revert to the correct pronounciation.

The other slight variation is the letter RRR. The letter DDD could have been chosen with almost equal accuracy. Often in early writing from New Zealand Keri Keri was written as Kedi Kedi. As with the Ng sound it is an RR sound emerging from the roof of the mouth and the middle of the tongue rather than the tip of the tongue against the front of the hard palate.

One qualification to all this, my experience is limited to Ngapuhi Maori, the dialect spoken by the most populous tribe in the far North of New Zealand. There are some regional variations across the different iwi or tribes.

Hope this helps you,

Ping 10:20 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)

It's interesting to read about the details unmentioned in the article. Do most White Kiwis pronounce them the traditional Maori way (at least according to the local or most common Maori dialect, like you described)? If not, how do White Kiwis pronounce ng and wh (as initial sounds of a word) usually? --Menchi 10:24 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)

The article says that "ng" is pronounced as in the English word "singer". That sounds perfectly straightforward to me. Or am I missing something? Are you saying that it's actually not quite the same as the sound in "singer"? -- Oliver P. 10:27 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)

To Oliver P, yes, that is what I am saying, it is a single sound, try running the ng of singer together. its, close. Ping 10:44 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I realize I'm coming to this discussion quite "late in the day", as it were...but if anyone is still paying attention, the problem here is one of dialect and idiolect differences within English prounciation. In pronunciation of most native-speakers of English, Maori "ng" is pronounced exactly like the "ng" in "singer". There are, however, significant groups who pronounce "singer" to rhyme with "finger", i.e., as though it were written *"singger". I recommend that, if anyone ever puts a phonology section back into this article, that they us the IPA symbol ŋ however, instead of trying to come up with a "universally agreed-upon English phoneme equivalent". Tomer TALK 20:25, Apr 17, 2005 (UTC)
That sounds like a good idea; we need someone familiar with the system. ping 08:29, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Type it up and let me know when it's ready on my User_talk page. I'll help in any way I can. You appear to be in a much better position to know what you're talking about wrt exactly to Re'o Maori than I am. I'm more than happy to help out with the IPA templating when a suitable phonology section is created. Tomer TALK 08:55, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)

To Menchi, Most Pakeha(non Maori) new Zealanders pronounce maori words exactly the same as if they were speaking English, thus Whanganui comes across as WONGA-NUI although Ngawha is usually rendered as NARFA Ping 10:49 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)

There are often three pronunciations (here illustrated with Whangarei):
1. Traditional Pakeha - Wonga-rei.
2. Pakeha attempt (failed) at political correctness - Fonga-rei.
3. Maori (where the initial consonant varies from region to region) - Fa-ngaa-rei or Ha-ngaa-rei or Wa-ngaa-rei.

The 2nd really grates on me. I'd rather people stuck to 1 if they can't manage 3. -BP 30 Oct 2003

Let me get a bit technical here and add to BP's list by suggesting a 4th sound here: not an 'f' which is a labiodental fricative made with lower lip touching upper teeth as in English, but a bilabial fricative made using both lips rather than lips and teeth. This sound is made with the lips parted a little more than for 'p', but otherwise in a similar position as for 'p'. To English ears this will sound like an f; if the lips are slightly rounded it may sound like a voiceless w - the wh in 'what' as pronounced by older speakers. It is likely that this bilabial fricative was the original pronunciation for many dialects, and that it was influenced by the English f which sounds pretty similar anyway, and is the origin of the present variation/confusion between f, wh, and w. Kahuroa 10:38, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
Back in the 70's listening to the old people speak, the sound that Kahuroa describes is the sound I remember hearing, and that I modelled my own pronounciation on. I have always, since then though that the 'f' sound was a lazy way of pronouncing it. These were speakders from the mid-north island. dont know what otehr dialects may do withthe sound, and remembering that the western north island dialects have a 'w' with a glottal stop, which is how Whanganui ended up being called Wanganui (W'anganui)Tashkop 03:59, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Alot of the 'correct' Maori pronounciations that've been come up with are a bit of a red herring. Maori was historically a language like German in that it was very fractured by different dialects with different pronouncations. This notion of there being a single correct way of saying each vowel & word is a product of nationalism, accidemia, and the very small number of remaining speakers of many dialects. Crusadeonilliteracy

Yes and no, you are partly correct but there are certain bondaries in the range of pronounciations. That is why spoken Maori would never sound like German; thus Cook Island Maori still sounds like Maori. My impression is that within New Zealand at least the range of spoken Maori is far narrower than, say, the range of spoken English in England. And yet people still talk about "correct English" ping 06:08, 31 Oct 2003 (UTC)~

Article needs attention

Several paragraphs are obviously (when one reads them) just the standard Wikipedia "X language" paragraphs telling contributors what sort of material the finished para should contain - see "Examples", for example.
Let's dig out some relevant material to fix it. :Robin Patterson 22:22, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)

  • Maori language contains some text copy & pasted from [1] ᚣᚷᚷᛞᚱᚫᛋᛁᛚ 01:02, 11 May 2004 (UTC)
    • If it's not the whole article, just remove the part you think is a copyright violation. Angela. 11:19, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)
      • The "complaint" is correct. The material has been there for 6 weeks, now spread over several paragraphs. It arrived in this revision on 13 April, with the somewhat cryptic comment "Conformation to template". Without realising its origin, I thanked the 14-year-old Arizonan Wikipediholic then rephrased and enlarged parts of it a day or two later. I or one of my fellow-Kiwis could probably do more paraphrasing and other editing so that it owed next-to-nothing to that site. Or maybe one of that site's guardians would like to do that for us... Robin Patterson 07:54, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Writing system

As it currently stands, the article claims that "Maori once had a script similar to the Rongorongo script of Easter Island". I have never heard of such a script being used by Maori - could someone please point me towards the source of this claim? (I'm not saying it's wrong, but since it conflicts with what I thought I knew, I'd quite like some confirmation of it). Thanks. -- Vardion 11:41, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Sounds/grammar/vocabulary, generally

Here (slightly edited for heading level) is what I have just concealed inside comment code in the article. Now that it's safely here, I suggest that it be deleted from the article next time someone's editing that. Robin Patterson 01:02, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Sounds

Description of the sound set of the language. Can include phoneme charts and example words for each phoneme like in French language. If there is significant discussion here, it is probably best to divide the section into vowels and consonants subsections.

Vowels

Vowel chart and discussion of vowels.

Consonants

Consonant chart and discussion of consonants (including the "wh" and "ng").

Phonology

Discussion of some major phonological processes, such as important allophones or assimilation rules.

Historical sound changes

Description of important sound changes in the history of the language. (Maybe this should go under history?)

Grammar

Description of the grammar of the language.

Vocabulary

This section should contain a discussion of any special features of the vocabulary (or lexicon) of the language, like if it contains a large number of borrowed words (large number of words are borrowed from English, as with all Polynesian languages) or different sets of words for different politeness levels, taboo groups, etc.

The vocab added is somewhat scrappy. I suggest it be alphabetised and divided into sections such as Greetings and other common expressions, Maori words generally understood by non-Maori New Zealanders eg taihoa, pakaru, tikanga, marae, haka ... Maori words commonly featuring in placenames eg roto, wai, motu, maunga, moana, manga, ... roa, iti, nui, poto, pai, kino, rau, ... Maori words commonly used in English by Maori, eg mahi, whakamā, whānau, whāngai, ... Commonly used transliterations --Hugh7 10:47, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Sailed over vs arrived

As the page history shows, there has been a series of reverts about the exact language in the second paragraph. I argue that "sailed over in canoes" is counter-intuitive. Initially I edited the article, I did not know that Polynesian peoples, especially, actually did sail canoes. I was informed that they did. However, as Ping said, my edit did not change the sense, and I would submit that it is an easier concept to grasp for someone not particularly knowledgeable about NZ/Maori/Polynesian history (i.e. me). Cheers, Smoddy (t) (e) 17:03, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

See how it looks now. I think it conveys the message of both edits - sails and canoes. Grutness|hello? 08:45, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Looks good to me. It does explain the concept better now. Smoddy (tgeck) 08:53, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Alphabet

I've added L to the listed alphabet, with the caveat that it is only used in Southern Maori. Grutness|hello? 05:40, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I think L should be listed only as a southern variant of R. Also I'm doubtful that G is distinct from K (where K is the Southern variant of NG: In Southern "kaika", the first K is a K everywhere, but the second is ng in the north. Around Christchurch, they underline the second one. I don't know what they do in Dunedin. We're getting into murky waters of graphemes vs phonemes vs morphemes here. -- Hugh7 22:54, 15 November 2005 (UTC)


Um...you guys realize that the whole alphabet thing is inside an HTML comment tag, right? Tomer TALK 06:31, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)

Yup - if you look at the edit history you'll see that it was put there "for comment", before being put into the article formally. Grutness|hello? 08:22, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Kia ora na, greetings,

Matters of opinion follow: "Tahitian" and "Rarotongan" are common if incorrect descriptions for what is in fact te reo "Maohi" in Tahiti and te reo "Maori" in Rarotonga. Some may also recognise "Maoli" in Hawaii. Referring to Tahitian, Rarotongan and Hawaiian as languages or dialects makes no more sense than describing te reo Maori as "Aotearoan" or "Cook Islandish." Most academics refer to Cook Islands Maori as "Cook Islands Maori" in the same manner as New Zealand Maori in their corner of Polynesia. In other words, describing someone as New Zealand Maori distinguishes them not just from non-Maori New Zealanders, but also their relations in the Pacific, such as Cook Islands Maori. Not sure how exactly this should be submitted but, for future reference, will watch this part of the wiki to see how these suggestions are handled.

Suggestion: In the interests of clarity I would suggest retaining words like Tahitian and Rarotongan. Improve accuracy by referring to Tahitian Maohi and Rarotongan Maori. This may prove more linguistically versatile as it allows for reporting of variants of Maori, Maohi and Maoli as a language of many dialects. For example, Mangaian Maori. Eventually, European speakers will feel comfortable enough with the word Maori to leave off the 'n' - just as many have done already with a now historical 's'

I can be contacted at the address below:

jason brown editor at avaiki dot nu

Compound nouns

This paragraph confuses me: "Of all of the existing Polynesian languages, Māori is the only member of the group where compound nouns are formed extensively. Long compound nouns are possible in Māori, but unlike German, compound nouns are not heavily used."

  • If compound nouns are formed extensively, then it seems tautological to say that they are possible.
  • Does "extensively" mean "a great deal", or is it a linguistic term that has a special meaning? If the latter, the term should be explained. If the former, it seems to conflict with the later statement that they are not heavily used.
  • What is the distinction being made about "long" compound nouns (presumably cf. shorter ones)?
  • The final para compares "long compound nouns" with merely "compound nouns".
  • Why is any comparison with German required, or relevant? Why not just say what happens in Maori? Those who know German can make their own comparisons.

Cheers JackofOz 01:13, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Compounds of more than two nouns are very rare in Māori, so the comparison with German should go. --Hugh7 03:14, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

(Te) Reo Māori in Mental Health

This section really doesn't belong here. It's not about linguistics or even sociolinguistics, just a short opinion piece about the use of te reo. It's hardly surprising that none of the references has an article. Is there an article about NZ mental health where it can go? -- Hugh7 03:14, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

I took it out. I also took out the reference to "diphthongs" because they are just Maori vowel pairs that happen to sound a bit like English diphthongs, such as ei "ay", ai "I" and are no different in Maori from those that don't, such as ua or ui. --Hugh7 22:54, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Are you sure you took it out? It still seems to be there. T J McKenzie 00:16, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

I have now. Also added the core of Biggs' grammatical structure. I may do something about the phrase later. --Hugh7 08:19, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

Southern dialect

"Kilmog" is given as an example of a word in the southern dialect. It has consecutive consonants ("lm"), which the article says never happens (and I always understood this to be the case). Is this an exception in the southern dialect, or has someone made a mistake? T J McKenzie 00:32, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

The kirimoku explanation makes things a bit clearer, thanks. I think it's still a bit unclear, though, whether "Kilmog" is an Anglicization of the southern Maori pronunciation, or is exactly the southern Maori pronunciation. If it's the latter, there probably should be some mention somewhere of the exception to the no-consecutive-consonants rule. T J McKenzie 07:24, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

It's the former and the rule is not broken. -- Hugh7 09:23, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was don't move. —Nightstallion (?) 09:53, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

Māori language → Maori language – "Māori" may be correct Maori but it's not English. Also, "Māori" will show up as "M□ori" to users without full character capability (see discussions in previous sections above). The title should reflect the English form and the Maori form can be stated in the first sentence. (Copied from the entry on the WP:RM page)

Please sign you comments with ~~~~

Voting

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~
  • What happened in the mid-1990s that ā suddenly became an English letter? I don't live in New Zealand so we still only use the old 26 letters. (Yes, moving the other articles is fine. I'll be happy to do the work if it's a burden.) LuiKhuntek 08:38, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
  • It just is the standard in New Zealand. It is commonly regarded that in the English Wikipedia, articles on British subjects should use standard British spelling, articles on American subjects should use standard American spelling, so therefore articles on New Zealand subjects should use standard New Zealand spelling. "Māori" is part of standard New Zealand spelling - so say all the Kiwis who put in their Oppose votes (including me). Darobsta 09:53, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
  • That's fine for the Maori Wikipedia but this is English Wikipedia and vowel length in English is not marked with a macron or any other diacritic. How is "Maori" pronounced differently from "Māori" in English? LuiKhuntek 08:38, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
  • How is "Fuhrer" pronounced differently from "Führer"? How is "facade" pronounced differently from "façade"? In both of these cases, one is correct, and the other isn't. Like it or not, Wikipedia reflects current trends in the English language. I don't care how the M-word is represented in the varieties of English other than New Zealand English - for the purposes of this article, that doesn't really matter. As I said above, it is a common policy on Wikipedia to adopt the standards and norms of a particular regional standard of written English when there is a clear reason to use that standard. I know "Māori" may seem as barbarous to your eyes as spellings like "hôtel", "rôle" and "élite", but check with the Kiwis who chimed in here, and they'll tell you that the inflected form is the standard. As far as I can tell, none of the Support voters are New Zealanders, whereas I can see a good number of regular NZ Wikipedians have turned up and all said Oppose. Darobsta 12:21, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

Add any additional comments
A case could even be made for moving to Te Reo Māori. --GeLuxe 22:38, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I don't believe so, otherwise we would be moving French language to Langue française and Russian language to Русский язык. Then there'll be a massive revert war over the proper native name for Standard Mandarin. The English Wikipedia should stay English (though naturally giving information on the source language term at all times).
I oppose this move. If you argue that people are unable to see the "ā" character, then why not change the Führer article too? Māori is the correct spelling. Onco_p53 23:28, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
ü is an ASCII/ANSI character, ā is not. LuiKhuntek 08:23, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Māori words in/influence on/ New Zealand English

As this section was getting very long, and as it relates to New Zealand English rather than to the Māori language, I have created a new article for it: Māori influence on New Zealand English. Kahuroa 02:58, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Vocab > Greetings

I took out the long and erratic list of words. No need for a 'vocabulary' here - there are online dictionaries! Left a few phrases as greetings - not sure if even this is necessary tho. Kahuroa 10:13, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Well is the Cook Islands Māori language section has a full vocab and greetings list, why can't ours? As you have quite rightly stated, that's what dictionaries are for, however, I believe providing such a list here gives an example of how close Cook Islands Māori is to New Zealand Māori, as well as to give people a chance to see what the language looks like in vocabulary. Maori rahi 11:05, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I was just trying to avoid a list developing that has no overall coherence. I like your idea tho. Greetings might be good in the form of a nicely formatted table which is less prone to being added to at random, I will see what I can come up with. Re comparison of greetings in languages like Cook Islands and Maori to show how they are related, I think that is a good idea to be added to Polynesian languages and show how close all these sister languages are. I will suggest it on Talk:Polynesian languages and maybe start it myself once the table has been done for this page Kahuroa 11:24, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

relationships to other Austronesian languages

I have taken out of the History section some references to Māori being related to a Philippine language. My main concern is that there seemed to be some kind of tug of war going on with this section - without explanation an unregistered user removed references to Malay and replaced them with Cebuono - I can't see why particularly. The fact is that it is misleading to talk about Māori as having some kind of special relationship to Malay or Philippine languages anyway - because it is not Māori alone that has those relationships, it is the Polynesian languages generally - not even just the Polynesian languages in fact - the same also goes for Fijian and the Vanuatu languages - in fact all the other Oceanic languages - Māori is only one of hundreds of languages that share very distant relationships with Malay and/or the Philippine languages. There is nothing particularly special or interesting about the relationship of either Malay or the Philippine languages to Polynesian anyway - there is no real reason to single them out for mention. These relationships are better mentioned at higher level pages dealing with the Austronesian and/or Oceanic languages generally where they can be seen in their proper context. Kahuroa 11:01, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Japanese long vowels

I have removed the reference to long vowels being roughly comparative to those of Japanese. I don't think so really - Japanese has an unrounded high back vowel - can anyone think of a better language to compare to? Kahuroa 19:51, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

To add to section on vowels

Mention of the allophone of /a/ that occurs between w and k - like 'o' in NZ English 'not', eg in 'waka'. Kahuroa 00:16, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

The Ministry for Culture and Heritage's nzhistory.net.nz website has a feature relating to Maori Language Week which includes - among other things - a history of the language. I hope it is ok to add this as a new external link - please let me know if it isn't!

thanks Jamie Mackay 22:45, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I like it, personally. Thanks for adding! :) Ziggurat 22:48, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Māori tap

Regarding the removal of some of the explication of the Māori tap, I hate to contradict User:202.74.203.228, but as a Kiwi who interacts with native Māori speakers daily, has an American partner and spent four months of last year in the States, and used to lecture in phonetics and phonology at Massey University, the removed section is accurate. Fortunately, Wikipedia doesn't rely on anyone's word, but demands sources, so here's one detailing the American tap (pdf, from UCLA) and the Maori tap (also a pdf). There may be some small variation in terms of where it is articulated or the length of articulation, but as a general description this is entirely accurate. I can provide more sources if necessary. Ziggurat 05:25, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Writing System and MAcrons

I would be interested to know when the macrons used in maori writing ("ā" for example) were introduced and why - as the article says, Māori was an oral language until the arrival of the Europeans, so the accents cannot have been instrinsically Maori and must have been put there by Europeans. Were they devised by Hnery Williams or someone at that time or are they a more recent development? My recollection is that they didn't pass into common usage until the last decade or so. ElectricRay 20:20, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually Māori had a large part in the use of vowel marking systems. They weren't devised by Henry Williams, but Māori themselves used them or similar systems, sporadically at first. There are occasional and inconsistent vowel length markings even in 19th century manuscripts written by Māori. (These markings can include macron-like bars over vowels, or the doubling of the vowels.) In the 19th century Māori-language newspapers, there is some sporadic use of macrons or other length marking methods. In Sir Apirana Ngata's Maori Grammar and Conversation (I have the 7th printing, dated 1953) macrons are used, but a little inconsistently. With the teaching of Māori at Universities since the 1960s, a more systematic use of vowel length marking came into play. At Auckland University, Professor Bruce Biggs (who was of Ngāti Maniapoto descent) promoted the use of double vowels (thus Maaori) and that was the standard at Auckland until Biggs died around 2000. The Māori Language Commission, which is the authority for Māori spelling and orthography, was established by the Māori Language Act 1987, and promoted the use of macrons, as did other universities. As for why, there is a need to mark vowel length because vowel length is phonemic in Māori - it can change the meaning of words:
ata, 'morning', āta, 'carefully'.
mana prestige, māna 'for him/her'.
manu, 'bird', mānu, 'float'
o, 'of', ō 'provisions' and so on Kahuroa 05:11, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
This is very interesting indeed, and seems appropriate to me for inclusion in the article proper. ElectricRay 06:14, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Pronunciation of the name

OK, so this is just me being a stupid American, but I can't be the only one. As a person who speaks American English, my impulse is to pronounce the word "mao-ree", but it also looks like it could be "may-o-ree". There is no indication on the page which it is. Could somebody who knows for sure add the IPA pronunciation (and maybe a recording?) to the first paragraph? I'd be forever grateful. Thor Rudebeck 15:51, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

You're right, it would help, although if you wade through the details about the vowels it should be possible to work it out. I'm no good at adding IPA stuff myself, but to cut a long story short, rhyme it with "bowery" or "dowry" and you're not too far off the mark, although the "o" is a little bit closer to "oh" than either of those. Grutness...wha? 04:06, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
IPA is a bit redundant with Polynesian languages, since they use the cardinal vowels and the IPA ends up being a repeat of the normal spelling. But I suppose it can help with some of the consonants represented by digraphs. Kahuroa 21:10, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

dialect

before europeans ame,were there many more languages in nZ.


also,i m sure dialets may exist??? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 210.9.15.116 (talk) 13:12, 14 February 2007 (UTC).

Calendar section

Does this belong in an article about the language? or should it be split off? Kahuroa 07:19, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Dialect section

Forgot to note this in the edit summary, but I moved the Dialect section to below Phonology, where it seems to fit better than after the Grammar section Kahuroa 00:31, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Major changes to the dialect section

I'm a little concerned to note that there have been major changes to the dialect section recently which have removed large amounts of information about the southern dialect: what information has remained has been reduced to a footnote, the replacement of r with l has been explained away as merely European mishearing (a "mishearing" which suspiciously seems to become increasingly more common the further south in NZ you get), and relevant facts about such features as apocope has been removed entirely. I hope this isn't another attempt to marginalise Southern Maori, and that the information will soon return to its rightful place in the article... Grutness...wha? 08:30, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

I think the material that used to be here is better left out of the article until it can be backed up from linguistic sources. It strikes me that most of the examples given of southern Maori pronunciation are identical to English pronunciation - apocope, consonsant clustering, presence of schwa and other English vowels to name some - so if you are going to claim such features in a Polynesian language you have to back it up convincingly. To me as someone with a background in Polynesian linguistics the features look exactly what you get from people who are primarily English speakers who use English phonotactics and phonemes when pronouncing the few words they know of the other language. No one wants to minimise southern Maori but we need proper citations and quotes from linguists who have carried out properly documented research among native speakers. Kahuroa (talk) 08:09, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Capitalisation of the term "te reo Maori"

The article currently has Te Reo Māori and Te Reo capitalised like so. I believe it should be te reo Māori and te reo.

  1. Te reo Māori and te reo are not proper names.
  2. We write the Māori language and the English language, not The Māori Language and The English Language.
  3. The Māori Language Commission does not capitalise te reo or reo, except where it is part of a proper name or a heading in title case. Eg,
    1. Statement of Intent 06-07 p2 "The value of reo Maori was recognised ..."; p8 "Kia ora te reo Māori hei reo matua..." etc.
    2. Te Reo Māori - "This article provides a perspective of the history, current use, and likely future of te reo Māori ..." etc. Nurg (talk) 06:27, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
This situation has arisen because it looked odd to me when Nurg changed it, so I changed it back. These things are subjective anyway, and if its good enough for Te Taura Whiri i te Reo Māori, it's good enough for me. Thanks Nurg, well spotted. Kāhuroa (talk) 08:03, 6 July 2008 (UTC)


Status as an endangered language

For the editor who requires citations about the endangered status of the Māori language: See 2004 press release by Māori Language Commission [3]. The stats are still pretty dire, see [4]. Also, read this 2007 article in the Dominion Post [5] Kahuroa (talk) 01:44, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

The term 'related to' keeps being targeted by helpful editors who seem to see it as a sloppy use of the passive voice, and replace it with 'resembles' or worse, 'relates to'. In fact 'to be related to' is the correct way to show that languages are well, related; 'relates to' has a different and inappropriate meaning, while changing it to 'resembles' just doesn't cut it, since languages can resemble each other in various ways without necessarily being related at all. Related here means related in a linguistic sense as descendants of a protolanguage; in the case of Māori, Cook Islands Māori and Tahitian, the protolanguage is Tahitic, a subdivision of Eastern Polynesian. Kahuroa (talk) 21:14, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

also replaced 'inter-relate closely' with 'are closely related' for the same reasons. Kahuroa (talk) 08:22, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Macron Revisted

Although the macron over the "a" may be more accurate or the proper written form for Maori, this is the English language wikipedia and typically accent marks are not included. There is no macron in the American Heritage Dictionary nor any other major English language dictionary. Wikipedia really should follow spellings used in these dictionaries for relatively well-known languages. Azalea pomp (talk) 16:25, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

This has been a controversial issue in the past. I believe the macron is probably appropriate in articles about Māori topics, because this "correct" spelling is often used in this context in formal New Zealand English, and this is the correct variety to use here. I generally agree with you in other contexts, but this is probably not the right forum to discuss other articles. If you want to effect some change beyond this specific article, I suggest you bring the issue up at Wikipedia:New Zealand Wikipedians' notice board. -- Avenue (talk) 00:50, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
I am not sure why it is controversial. The Library of Congress has Maori with no macron. This is Wikipedia for all English speakers around the world and not only for New Zealand. It is the same with cities in Iran or the Arab World, rarely are accent marks or any diacritics are included. For the English language, we have to use or go by the consensus of the various English language dictionaries or encyclopedias. Azalea pomp (talk) 01:10, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
See Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Strong national ties to a topic. Arab countries do not have a national English dialect, so general English usage would apply. This may be the reason we generally ignore diacritics there. (See Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Foreign terms.) We certainly use diacritics in European names where appropriate, and (perhaps a better parallel to this article) for some other indigenous peoples like Tr’ondëk Hwëch’in First Nation. -- Avenue (talk) 02:19, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
Maori is a relatively well-known ethnic group and the term is in many if not most English dictionaries while Tr’ondëk Hwëch’in is not. It seems that geographic terms which come from languages written in a Latin-based alphabet often include the accent marks. Languages which must be transliterated often do not. For example, Malmö is common enough, but it is Manama not often Manāma. I just think for the English language, we should find some kind of consensus. It is not that I agree or disagree with the macron, I just wonder if it is consistent. Azalea pomp (talk) 08:46, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
The "foreign terms" link I gave above seems to make it clear that our guidelines don't require too much consistency on diacritics, and I'm not sure how to explain it more clearly than that does. WT:MOS could a better venue for your concerns, but you might want to scan the archives first. These issues have come up before. -- Avenue (talk) 15:21, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Number of speakers

I have consulted the source (New Zealand census) and it says that the figures indicate the number of people able to speak each language. That means that second language speakers are also counted. I think that this fact should be indicated, otherwise people tend to believe that the figure shows the number of first language speakers, as I believed until I saw the source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Toni PC (talk • contribs)

The dearth of native speakers is discussed later in the article, and readers familiar with the NZ context are unlikely to believe the number is just native speakers. But I agree it doesn't hurt to give a definition along with the figure in the infobox, and I've done so. -- Avenue (talk) 19:15, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

History

I changed this statement: that Māori arrived "most likely from the Society Islands" since my understanding is that there is no evidence favouring the Society Islands over the Cooks (among other contenders), for instance. Have added a source from Te Ara encyclopedia to that effect (see section The current perspective of the Te Ara article) Kahuroa (talk) 10:33, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Thank you. Good to see that my minor (non-expert's) improvement and comment spurred a more substantial improvement. The wiki principle does work! Florian Blaschke (talk) 17:10, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Evolution into a written language .

I went to this page hopeing to find some information about the transformation of Maori from a spoken-only language . The history of the evolution/manipulation of Maori into a written language seems to have been relegated to a lowly importance . —Preceding unsigned comment added by SM527RR (talk • contribs) 01:42, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Southern Māori

Grutness, re your edits. Do you have a source for the characteristics of Southern Māori, especially for radical changes like the extra vowel schwa - which isn't an instance of apocope, by the way. Lenition probably more like it. How do we distinguish this from the wholesale substitution of English pronunciation and phonotactics, as in a language death situation? Schwa being extremely common in English, but absent from Māori. Any examples apart from placenames? No mention here of schwa. And the final o in Killmog seems identical to English too? Any vowels not found in English? Kahuroa (talk) 05:17, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Taken some of this out as unsourced. It would be of great interest to linguists if correct - it totally contradicts the phonology section on vowels and phonotactics. So there should be heaps of sources, you'd think, for a Polynesian dialect with English phonology. Plus re r/l, plenty of North Is evidence for same, eg Tolaga Bay. Kahuroa (talk) 23:11, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
I can't speak for Grutness, and having looked up its own article I dont think apocope is what's happening, but I have read an essay by George Griffith, published as part of his book "Spurious Māori Placenames of Southern New Zealand", which broadly agrees with the content you have removed; particularly the dropping of the final vowel, as per historic pronounciations of place names such as Waimatuku or Wakatipu. I will have to rescue the book from its current borrower some time and do some work on place names (when I have lots and lots of spare time, which isn't likely to happen for a long time, unfortunately). Daveosaurus (talk) 00:15, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
What's is really needed is a decent linguistic source. The "dropping" (so-called) of final vowels is not restricted to the South Island and wasn't what I was particularly worried about, it's the apparent wholesale adoption of English phonotactics etc which looks like an instance of something else entirely. Linguistics is a specialised field and it's strange that in my four years of Polynesian Linguistics at AU they never mentioned this wholesale adoption of English phonotactics. Of the stuff you have put in there's probably nothing that is uniquely southern. So this section is in need of an overhaul. Kahuroa (talk) 01:05, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
I've finally retrieved the book in question. The relevant part is chapter 5 ("A Southern perspective"): an eleven page essay on the differences between southern Māori and the "standardised" form of the language, and how the differences were characterised by academic sources throughout the last century and a half; appended to which is eight pages of examples sorted into categories (e.g. "alteration of aspirate", "elision of final vowel", "B for P", etc.) Grutness, let me know if you want to borrow this book and I can drop it off the next time I am in Dunedin (if I remember). Daveosaurus (talk) 10:55, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
Re Goodall & Griffiths. Good to see a source but I think this one has problems. Seems like a slim local history written by non-linguists - not what is needed for an article like this. Consonant wise there is nothing described that is unique to southern Maori, but non-linguists wouldn't realise that. It also requires an improbable vowel system, and is full of holes in its uncanny likeness to English. But it's good to see where this has come from. I remember reading descriptions of the dialect done by expert linguists. I will try and hunt them down but it take quite some time I'd say. Kahuroa (talk) 09:33, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Waitangi Tribunal warning on state of language

Maori words common in Nz English

See separate section as above —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.237.33.244 (talk) 23:24, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

This is covered by another article (first link in the See Also section) Kahuroa (talk) 00:50, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Repression of Māori language

The repression of the Māori language is a notable topic and should be added to the article. Anecdotes abound about Māori children being discipled in the 1960s (for example) for speaking te reo. -- Alan Liefting (talk) - 01:11, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

The other side of the coin, which should be mentioned for balance, is that some/many Māori-speaking parents did not speak the language to their children, because of a widespread belief at the time that English was where the job opportunities lay. I think the disciplining and this belief started well before the 1960s. Kahuroa (talk) 03:03, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
Yes, I agree with the need for balance. I gave the 1960s as an example - I am unsure as to how early it started and how late it stopped. -- Alan Liefting (talk) - 03:15, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
I am not trained in linguistics, but have published work of an etymological nature that focuses on this language. The repression thesis may be more measurable and, therefore, easier to gain information on from peer-reviewed secondary sources. Although there is a question about why intergenerational transmission slowed, there is little literature beyond the repression thesis. The failure of the colonists to assimilate linguistically suggests a transmission bias, but I have not found literature to either support or negate this claim. It may be simpler to start with the NPOV which is the supported by published information. -- Te Karere (talk)Katarina_"Ψ" 11:51, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

"No diphthongs" vs "(C)V(V)"

The section on vowels says

As in many other Polynesian languages, there are no true diphthongs in Māori (when two vowels are adjacent, each belongs to a different syllable),

Yet shortly after, the section Syllables says:

Syllables in Māori have one of the following forms: V, VV, CV, CVV.

which states pretty clearly that two adjacent vowels can indeed belong to a single syllable.

Can anyone rectify this so that the two sections are consistent?

I'm assuming the issue is that adjacent vowels in Maori are fully pronounced, rather than reduced to a "glide". Prof Wrong (talk) 19:55, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

English as an Official/National Language

I have removed the reference to English being an official language. The definition provided for an official language excludes the assignment of the label to English in New Zealand. As provided under the section 21 of the 1867 Native Schools Act 1867, I believe English has been an official language in that "no school [was to] recieve any grant unless it [was] shown ... that the English language and the ordinary subjects of primary English education [were] taught". Further, English is the language of the nation-state in New Zealand and is recognised as an official language by many government departments. However, I am unable to find specific legal recognition beyond 1867. --Te Karere (talk) 10:42, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

And in doing so, you altered the text of the paragraph, while preserving the source link to a press release from the New Zealand government that states that New Zealand has *three* official languages.[6] (quote) How will this Bill affect the status of English and Mâori as New Zealand’s official languages? There are two official languages in New Zealand: English and Mâori. The NZSL Bill will not affect the status of these languages. Mâori Deaf report that official recognition of NZSL will increase the likelihood of their being able to use NZSL at hui, marae events, and tangi, and therefore increase their access to Mâori language and culture, including whakapapa. (unquote) That is an official source stating that English is an official language, yet the sentence - as you left it - only mentions Maori and sign language, so that is misleading to readers. Can you cite an official statement from the New Zealand government that states that English is not an official language? Otherwise, this is merely a personal evaluation, but Wikipedia is not intended for individual observations and considerations (WP:OR), the purpose of Wikipedia is to transmit verifiable information. So basically, you have a press statement from the New Zealand government stating that New Zealand has three official languages. Unless verifiable authoritative sources can be presented to the contrary, then English belongs on the list as well, as indicated in the source cited. 89.150.160.26 (talk) 09:56, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

It is possible that your argument is with Wikipedia's current definition of official language. I do not doubt that English has been an official language of New Zealand per the definition provided for an official language in Wikipedia (that is, "a language that is given a special legal status in a country, state, or other jurisdiction"). As I have indicated, English received legal recognition in 1867, however this Act was repealed in 1891. You may be able to source evidence that English currently has a "special legal status" similar to that provided to the Māori and New Zealand Sign languages. I would agree that the source you offer is 'official' in that it is a media statement made by a government representative. However, media statements in New Zealand, such as those released through beehive.govt.nz, do not constitute law and are, therefore, not evidence of a "special legal status". I am not making an individual observation and consideration as you suggest. Instead, I seek evidence that supports the claim that English has a "special legal status" in New Zealand. I await your response.--Te Karere (talk) 10:28, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Leading with linguistic perspective

Why does this page lead with a linguistic perspective of the language? The New Zealand English page does not have an infobox, let alone a language family section. The closet approximation is one sentence identifying other forms of English that have been influential. Although I believe the linguistic perspective should be retained, I do not believe that linguistics operates more neutrally than any other discipline. I welcome comments.--Te Karere (talk) 11:07, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

New Zealand English is about the national variant of the English language, and so is not comparable to this article. The English language page is directly comparable, and uses the same infobox. It also explains in the first sentence which language family it belongs to.-gadfium 20:25, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
Point taken. How about the neutrality issue? When discussing languages, a positivist approach to linguistics is present across Wikipedia. Although it is an important position, it is not a neutral one. Using positivism's strengths, linguistics has the capacity to represent language as an atemporal, delocated object of study, however, it is not necessary for linguists to do so in order to work in the field. Unfortunately, this solitary linguistic methodology seems to have been adopted uncritically by many editors.
When discussing the English language, Italian, French, Spanish, German, and English Wikipedia all present language familiy information in an infobox. They also share pretty much the same opening statement leading with a linguistic perspective. Polish Wikipedia presents the language family in an infobox, but has a different opening statement.
When discussing the Māori language, the different Wikipedia present language familiy information in an infobox, however, they all have different opening statements. The Italian and French approach seems most like the English version. The Spanish version has a single sentence introduction. The opening paragraph of the German Māori language page has a more statistical flavour. The Polish version does not seem to mention any linguistic aspects at all in the opening paragraph. There may be other Wikipedia which use a more critical (or at least less positivist) linguistic approach, but I am limited by my inability to read multiple scripts. --Te Karere (talk) 12:34, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

stress

Stress falls within the last four moras – so what if the 4th mora is the 2nd part of a diphthong, as in Wairarapa? Is the stress on the i, or on the wai? — kwami (talk) 08:27, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

In this case, "wai" is stressed, rather than just "i". I believe that this would apply to any dipthong in Māori, but I can't say for certain. Cheers. – Liveste (talk • edits) 09:24, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

=re Rapanui

Re my edit about the relative relatedness of Rapanui, see [7] which has Eastern Polynesian with two major subdivisions, Rapanui v Central Polynesian which is everything else in Eastern P. 58.28.210.192 (talk) 08:55, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

South Island dialects

The article says "In the extinct South Island dialects"... is this not a bit of a misnomer? There are some mentions of dialectical differences that probably aren't around anymore, but many of the differences in South Island dialects still exist in Māori-speaking communities today (e.g.: replacing 'g' sound with 'k'). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.59.207.79 (talk) 06:44, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

This would need to be checked. K-dialect forms are sometimes used in the south in the Māori names of government and other organisations. I have heard second-language Māori speakers using k forms, but my understanding is that they're simply substituting the k for ng in the form of Māori they've been taught, without using the other features of the dialect. I believe there were still people ten or so years ago who had learned k dialect as children. One young woman I knew told me her grandfather knew the dialect, but refused to use it. Koro Neil (talk) 21:39, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Maori language materials

Maori Tutor

https://archive.org/details/maorienglishtuto00stowiala

Grammar

https://archive.org/details/grammarofnewzeal00maunuoft

https://archive.org/details/grammarofnewzeal00maunrich

Dictionary

https://archive.org/details/dictionaryofnewz00willrich

https://archive.org/details/adictionarynewz01willgoog


https://archive.org/details/maoripolynesian00treggoog

https://archive.org/details/maoripolynesian01treggoog

https://archive.org/details/cu31924026916480


https://archive.org/details/australenglisha00morrgoog

https://archive.org/details/australenglisha01morrgoog

https://archive.org/details/australenglisha02morrgoog

https://archive.org/details/australenglishdi00morruoft

https://archive.org/details/australenglishad27977gut

Text in Maori

https://archive.org/details/kongamoteateamen00grey

Travels in New Zealand

https://archive.org/details/travelsinnewzeal01diefrich

https://archive.org/details/travelsinnewzeal02diefrich

Rajmaan (talk) 23:24, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Very fluent Maori speakers?Meaning

In a recent discussion with several very highly qualified academic Maori speakers it was interesting that they preferred to speak English when discussing any technical or academic topic. They explained that although they were fluent in te Reo that only applied to normal everyday conversation or traditional, ritual use. Maori was a not a good way of communicating clearly in academic arenas as firstly no one outside of a select few would understand and also Maori did not have the range of expressions and technical language of English. In many academic areas research is always conducted in English. "Its simply far easier " was the consensus. In Iraq all higher learning is conducted in English because there are a lack of textbooks in local languages. The same applies to Maori where there are almost no Maori language text books suited to teaching the range of science and maths subjects at secondary level to say nothing of tertiary level. Claudia

The article has plenty of credible sources and great background information, but is limited in terms of language grammar and phonetics. Have the attempts to revitalize the Maori language helped increase the overall fluency of the language? Are the Maori dialects of the North and South islands close enough for them to be mutually intelligible? Jacquelinedy (talk) 04:17, 6 September 2016 (UTC)

government sponsored schools

Just removed this recent addition to the intro:

"At the beginning of the 20th century, it looked like Te Reo as well as other aspects of Māori culture would disappear. In the 1980s however, government sponsored schools taught Te Reo, educating those of European descent as well as Māori."

While not wildy wrong, it doesn't read well, especially the second sentence seems an odd way to describe Kōhanga Reo and Kura Kaupapa Māori. Snori (talk) 10:25, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

Official status

English is a de facto official language. The paragraph headed Official status could be understood as stating that NZ is bilingual in Maori and NZ Sign Language. Also, link 15 is broken. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.56.70.5 (talk) 03:03, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

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Literature

This article should include something on written literature. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.146.20.14 (talk) 11:48, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Prefixes and suffixes

Should there be a section covering important prefixes and suffixes, e.g., the use of Whaka- to indicate an action and -tanga to create a noun from an adjective? Grutness...wha? 23:42, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

Second to last, or also third and fourth to last?

The current article text contains:

"In addition to word stress, Māori has phrasal stress that falls on the second to last mora:[1]

  • Ko te rangatíra, o tēnei márae ('the rangatira of this marae')
  • Ko te maráe, o tēnei rángatira ('the marae of this rangatira')"

In the first phrase in both sentences, I can see that stress is indicated on the second to last mora. But in what seems to be the last phrase in each sentence, stress is indicated on what seem to be the third to last and fourth to last morae, respectively. Does this contradict the stated rule? Or are "o tēnei márae" and "o tēnei rángatira" not considered phrases? (Or) am I missing something (else)?Redav (talk) 22:13, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Harlow 2006, p. 83.

Wording / idiom / grammar

The current text includes quite a detailed description and provides examples, which I like.

However, I get confused by the wording in certain instances. While not being a mother-tongue speaker of English myself, I seem to understand there are a few 'translation' issues.

For example, might I suggest that:

"The indefinite article he is usually positioned at the beginning of the phrase in which it is used. The indefinite article is used when the base is used indefinitely or nominally. These phrases can be identified as an indefinite nominal phrase. The article either can be translated to the English ‘a’ or ‘some’, but the number will not be indicated by he. The indefinite article he when used with mass nouns like water and sand will always mean 'some'.[108]"

be changed into:

"The indefinite article he usually comes at the beginning of the phrase in which it is used. It is employed when the base is used indefinitely or nominally. Such phrases can be identified as indefinite nominal phrases. The article he translates as either ‘a’ or ‘some’, but does not indicate number. When used with mass nouns like water and sand, he always means 'some'.[108]",

or something similar? (Here I chose the word "employed" to break a sequence of repeated instances "usually", "used", "used", "used", all with the same stem.)

And might I suggest that:

"The proper article a is used for personal nouns. The personal nouns do not have the definite or indefinite articles on the proper article unless it is an important part of its name. The proper article a always being the phrase with the personal noun.[109]"

be changed into:

"The proper article a is used with personal nouns. After a, personal nouns do not take a definite or indefinite article, unless it is an important part of its name. The proper article a always belongs to / governs a phrase with a personal noun.[109]",

or something similar? (I chose to insert a comma, to help ease reading the sequence "a, personal nouns", since a is easily mistaken for the English indefinite article.) A knowledgeable person with respect to Māori would then have to decide whether "belongs to" or "governs" (or something else) is appropriate; I was not able to understand that from the current wording.Redav (talk) 10:45, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

"Spoken by" or "originated among"?

Whilst I take the point that non-Māori are increasingly introducing Māori words and phrases into their speech, especially in broadcasting where an entire introductory paragraph might be spoken in te Reo, I would argue that it's still a moderately safe bet, if you hear substantive statements being spoken in te Reo, that the speaker, or the audience, or both, are Māori. Thus I would not consider it to be misleading to summarize te Reo, in the lede sentence, as "the language spoken by Māori people"; nuance on that statement can be introduced later on. Analogously, I would consider it reasonable to describe Latin as "the language spoken by the ancient Romans", even though it continues to be used in contexts which are neither ancient nor Roman.

On the other hand – and it's entirely possible that I'm in a small minority here – to me the phrase "originated among the Māori people" strongly implies something which is not a reasonable description of the situation, namely that te Reo has spread beyond Māoritanga to such an extent that it might be found being spoken by two non-Māori people in a context without reference to Māoritanga or te Ao Māori or New Zealand, so that people might be familiar with the language itself but still need to have its origins explained to them.

Anyway, that's why I reverted the recent change. If my interpretations are idiosyncratic and other people don't see it that way, it wouldn't be the first time.

—VeryRarelyStable 07:17, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

I think you have put it well and I agree. A further point is that we might question the reliability of NZ TV as a reliable source for showung that Maori is spoken widely by non-Maori. What we see and hear is artificially introduced to serve a particular purpose. To rely on that as confirmation that the language is spoken more widely by non Maori New Zealanders is unsafe. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 09:05, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

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Spelling, again

I will not start an inevitable edit war but will jump straight into the talk page. The section called name states:

The English word comes from the Māori language, where it is spelled Māori. In New Zealand, the Māori language is often referred to as te reo [tɛ ˈɾɛ.ɔ] ('the language'), short for te reo Māori.[9]

This is confusing and ambiguous. Ref 9 relates to the second sentence so is not relevant to the first. To be clearer the first sentence should read

The English word Maori comes from the Māori language, where it is spelled Māori. In NZ (English) the actual Maori word, including the macron, is frequently used in written English as a foreign word.

To me, this is what has/is happening in NZ. Countless articles do not spell it out and cause ambiguity and a lack of clarity. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 20:43, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

@Roger 8 Roger: I did some minor copyediting in an attempt at clarification. That said, I don't understand your comment about "Ref 9", so I don't think I addressed that concern of yours. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 23:33, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

Capitalisation of ‘te reo’

It seems there isn’t a standard capitalisation in usage, with ‘te reo’, ‘te reo Māori’, ‘Te reo Māori’ and ‘Te Reo’ all being in use, but I think we should we establish a capitalisation consistency.

My take is that at least when using the two words alone as a proper noun, we should use ‘Te Reo’ (if we treated it as we would other languages, especially English, we might use ‘te Reo’, but I don't think I ever see this in the wild). Spelling as ‘te reo Māori’ appears to be used as a more literal translation of ‘the Māori language’, so that seems reasonable too.

As always, alternative takes are sought. — HTGS (talk) 21:37, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

I wonder if it's a case where we'd be better to have a different usage between te reo Māori and Te Reo? When it's in full, I've generally seen te reo Māori with that capitalisation, but I agree that Te Reo is probably better when referring to it like that. Turnagra (talk) 04:07, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
Personally I would say "te reo" should be capitalised when used mononymously, like you'd say "They met at Parliament", but canterbury.ac.nz says

The Māori language may be referred to as 'te reo Māori' or just 'te reo' - 'te reo' is lowercase.

 Nixinova   T   C   04:52, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
I don't have an opinion on this except that some form of consensus would be useful, even if it is only that there is no consensus. I have been using te reo or te reo Maori but have hesitated a couple of time when using te rea at the start of a sentence, and then taking the easy option of rearranging the sentence. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 08:15, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

Ease / difficulty of pronouncing utterances starting in /ŋ/

The current article text contains:

"/ŋ/ can come at the beginning of a word (like sing-along without the "si"), which is difficult for English speakers outside of New Zealand to manage."

I wonder to what extent the statement of the second clause is accurate. I cannot say that to me, a speaker of English (though not a mother-tongue speaker) outside of New Zealand, pronouncing /ŋ/ at the beginning of a word (or utterance) is at all difficult to manage. And I have never been surrounded by spoken language that contains such sequences, nor have I ever been in New Zealand. The statement does not seem to be generally true, I am afraid.Redav (talk) 23:09, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

In linguistics books written in English about sound constraints, it is extremely common to mention /ŋ/ as a sound that exists as a phoneme in English but which is not allowed in syllable-initial position. Not only that, it is a sound that most native, monolingual speakers of English find very difficult to produce in syllable-initial position. I don't know whether New Zealanders as a whole find it easy to pronounce in this position, but I know that elsewhere, most native, monolingual speakers of English find it very difficult. When I first learned about linguistics in university in my early 20s, I read about this and struggled to pronounce this phoneme in that position. Now, forty years later and after having studied a number of languages, it is no longer hard for me to do this. Interlingua 16:41, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
  • Hmm, perhaps. The issue may be more that the text states this as a blanket fact, when in actuality, different people may have subjectively different experiences.
As a counterexample, I grew up among mostly-monolingual English speakers on the US Atlantic seaboard (my mother had a smattering of French and there was some Spanish around me at school), a speech community that doesn't have this particular phoneme in word-initial position, and I didn't have any trouble making this sound. My difficulty was in understanding the spelling, since my first brush with the Māori language was from printed materials -- for instance, I initially parsed ngā (plural "the") or ngeru ("cat") as starting with /nɡ-/ or /ŋɡ-/ as in some African languages. But once I'd read a better explanation of the ⟨ng⟩ grapheme, pronunciation wasn't difficult, and when I finally heard some audio, I confirmed I was at least in the ballpark.
I would suggest changing the text slightly to be less absolute:
  • "which is difficult" →
"which may be difficult"
‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 18:50, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
"Hmm, perhaps." Well, no. Not perhaps. As I mentioned, the difficulty that English-speakers have in producing the phoneme /ŋ/ in syllable-initial position is something that is mentioned in many textbooks and articles about linguistics, phonology, and phonotactics. Have you read very much, in English, about English phonology and rules of English phonotactics? If so, don't you remember reading about this? Some people might not have this problem, many more will have this problem but not realize it (that's one of the things about trying to produce sounds that go against the phonological or phonological rules of language(s) one knows: it's very easy to think that one is producing them correctly when that's not true), but most monolingual speakers of English will struggle to produce /ŋ/ in syllable-initial position. This is not my opinion. This is something well known in linguistics. Am I able now to look up the citations for this? No. But that doesn't change the fact that this is a well-known feature of English phonotaxis. Interlingua 20:38, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
The text states that word-initial /ŋ/ is difficult for native English speakers as an absolute fact. You provide an anecdote in support of that. I provide an anecdote that counters that. So does Redav above. Simply put, "most" English speakers is not "all" English speakers.
I'm not sure what the difficulty is here? Your apparent vehemence seems misplaced. It's a simple matter to fix the article text to avoid unnecessary absolutism, which at least some readers clearly find problematic. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 06:51, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

As a teacher of te reo, it is difficult for the majority of native English speakers to achieve the initial "Ng" without practice. This is especially true for English speakers who grew up outside of communities with te reo usage. I've also observed difficulty from English as second language speakers when their mother tongue also has no initial "Ng". The challenge results from wanting to pronounce the digraph at the same point on the palate as "N" despite the correct point being closer to "K". Pronouncing the digraph "Ng" without pronouncing a "G" can also sometimes be challenging. Eckeall (talk) 00:20, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Inaccurate/confusing language map

The user-created map at the start of the Te Reo page doesn't have any key explaining what the different shades of blue represent.

It also includes the cook islands, which are usually considered to have a different language, and doesn't include large parts of the south island which contain Māori communities and te reo speakers. Eckeall (talk) 04:21, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

"Māori–Moriori"

I'm puzzled as to why this term keeps being removed. In context, I take it to mean that New Zealand Māori is more closely related to Moriori than either is to any other Tahitic language, and therefore "Māori–Moriori" is the name, albeit perhaps an ad hoc name, of a subgroup within the Tahitic languages. Is there scholarship to the contrary now? I especially don't see how, per Maungapohatu's edit summary this afternoon, it would run afoul of the "discredited Moriori myth". As far as I am aware, the "Moriori myth" is the idea that Moriori were a Melanesian people who lived in mainland New Zealand as well as the Chathams before the Māori arrived; the close relationship of the Māori and Moriori languages would surely debunk that idea, not appear to support it. —VeryRarelyStable 03:44, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Thanks VeryRarelyStable the way it was suggested, at least to me, that the two languages grew out of one proto "Maori/Moriori" language when it is accepted that Moriori grew from being isolated from Māori. The understanding of this is not enhanced by an extra "heading" between Tahitic and Maori. Maungapohatu (talk) 17:52, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
the way it was suggested, at least to me, that the two languages grew out of one proto "Maori/Moriori" language when it is accepted that Moriori grew from being isolated from Māori
...do you mind if I ask, how do you think language differentiation works? There would have been a proto-language, yes, from which both Māori and Moriori as we know them today are descended, having drifted in different directions from the proto-language due to having been isolated from each other.
If you were thinking that that proto-language must have been the same as modern Māori, and that Moriori was the only one that changed, on account of the fact that the people who spoke the proto-language lived in mainland New Zealand where modern Māori is now spoken, that's not how it works.
For clarity's sake we do refer to New Zealand's past indigenous population as "Māori" all the way back to the original settlement of Aotearoa, before the ancestors of the Moriori left the mainland. But that's a matter of verbal convenience. It is not the case that Māori culture or language froze in time at that point.
—VeryRarelyStable 20:30, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Sources

We have to be very careful when using sources to verify statements of fact, not least because this is a touchy subject. I have just reworded a paragraph that had the below source.

"Roy, Eleanor Ainge (28 July 2018). "Google and Disney join rush to cash in as Māori goes mainstream". The Guardian. Retrieved 28 July 2018. John McCaffery, a language expert at the University of Auckland school of education, says the language is thriving, with other indigenous peoples travelling to New Zealand to learn how Māori has made such a striking comeback. 'It has been really dramatic, the past three years in particular, Māori has gone mainstream,' he said."

This source is being misused. Most of it passes over the personal opinions of other people or has statements that are qualified in some way. The statements of fact in our WP article are therefore primary. The source should probably stay but what it says has to be reworded so as not to make it look as though it is stating facts. Someone reading this would have the impression there are people queueing up at night classes across the country to learn Maori. It is also not balanced: there is no reporting of the anti-Maori promotion brigade that is a sizable minority, as reflected in the previous IP edits, and nor is there any mention of the legislative changes that lie behind this revival. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 03:19, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

Hi, I've added two sources that support what was written before your edits, and expanded what was there using those sources. Regarding "queueing up at night classes across the country", the Time source says "In late 2019, hundreds of people were on a waiting list for language classes at Auckland University of Technology" for example, so that impression is supported. I've also added balance, as you suggested, sourced from The New York Times. E James Bowman (talk) 21:30, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
I've also added info and sources about government involvement, as you suggested. E James Bowman (talk) 22:02, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
Thanks for your changes E James Bowman. IMO you are following the correct path on how the Maori Renaissance has to be treated by us on this, and many other articles. It should be about the way the language promotion is handled and received; it is not about the language itself. That is why I and some others have got into disagreements with editors who claim there is no promotion going on. Worse than that IMO is that some editors are using WP as part of that Maori-promotion, even though I accept those editors are acting in good faith. The wording of this post-2015 sub-section we are talking about is a good example of that. What was there before and what is there now is quite different in style and meaning. I only hope your approach is adopted elsewhere. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 07:24, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

Some businesses or just businesses

Barely a day passes before the spats reappear. Can we do it here please, not on the edit summary tags. I see both sides as valid: in context it could be assumed that not all businesses were making the changes, only those who chose to be part of the trend. Inserting 'some' could be seen as unnecessary and only there to make a point. I did not see anything wrong when I first read the paragraph. However, if taken out of context, it would imply that most, if not all, businesses were making the changes, and people will often read sentences in isolation and out of context. Using 'some' would avoid that implication and it is also factually correct. Another consideration would be how it sounds when read - is it artificial? I think both versions sound equally natural. Although I first thought adding 'some' was unnecessary, I am beginning to lean slightly to its inclusion, if only to be certain there is no misunderstanding. One reader at least, the IP, has read it and seen the need for clarification. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 07:05, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

I've added business examples from sources to clarify. E James Bowman (talk) 21:18, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

Pronunciation of Wh

Hi I’m not an expert but there are no references for the pronunciation of “wh”. Sir Peter Buck in the “The coming of the Māori” (1949) describes the traditional pronunciation as being an aspirated “wh” similar to traditional English pronunciation of “where” (hwere) (p.76) rather than an “f” sound. Also he notes the guttural closure affects the pronunciation of “wh” the West Coast tribes of North Island so “whare” becomes “w’are” (p.79). Also I believe that some older Northland dialects pronounce “wh” differently too but I don’t have a reference for that. 125.237.47.2 (talk) 21:56, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

That's described in the phonology section – ... [ɸ], which is usually supposed to be the sole pre-European pronunciation and ... digraph ⟨wh⟩ is pronounced as [ʔw] instead of [f] or [ɸ]..  Nixinova   T   C   22:00, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
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