Talk:Louisiana Creole people/Archives/2015

Jake Delhomme

I'm not sure if he should be in the "Notable Creoles" section... on the List of French Americans, we have him listed as a Cajun (a distinction is made between Cajuns and Creoles there). He's also on the List of Cajuns.

And one more little thing - does it not occur to people that the "Notable Creoles" section is in alphabetical order by last name?
Défenseur 17:17, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

I believe I've given good reasons to remove the link, and it's been about four days, so I'm just going to take it off now.
Défenseur 01:43, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Creole Flag

The flag currently in the article isn't really recognized as the Creole flag, and I think it's just a concept flag from Frenchcreoles.com [1]. The flag that most Creoles use (online, at least - on MySpace: [2] [3]) is one made by a group called C.R.E.O.L.E., Inc in 1987. It's also the one on "Flags of the World." [4] The image's copyright status is confusing to me (I've never uploaded an image before), so I'm just putting this out there for whoever wanted to mess with that... Défenseur 04:25, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

In New Orleans,if your creole.You are considered "African American" because Im from there.=First of all, thatjeanne (talk) 06:16, 7 April 2008 (UTC) author needs to sign his name! And secondly,someone like myself whose great-grandmother was a white French Creole has to disregard the definition of Creole in most dictionaries because of Afrocentrism.jeanne (talk) 15:58, 6 April 2008 (UTC)I think the article is too biased in favour of Creoles of color.There should be more citations of white Creoles such as Virginie Gautreau, Baroness Pontalba and Gen.Beauregard-surely the greatest Creole of them all.jeanne (talk) 16:04, 6 April 2008

"related groups" info removed from infobox

For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 23:22, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Article Quality

It seems like the quality of the page has declined over time... I just removed two big sections that were copied and pasted into the article from an essay by some professor at Yale.
I'm kind of uneasy with the areas around the numerous references to "gens de couleur libres" because they don't strike me as being particularly easy to understand for people unfamiliar with the subject matter. Along with seemingly random insertions of foreign language words like that "newly arrived" one (that I believe is in the "History" section), the use of foreign language words and phrases seems a bit pervasive - I think that if it's an important one, it should be defined, but it shouldn't be used too much in the article itself.
Some of the language is a little too artsy or dramatic, which I don't think would be good for most readers of the article - for example, "History" used to be "History of a People" and "Identity Issues" was something along the lines of "Identity Crises. Cajun or Creole. Black, white, or mixed." Still, there's this "Caribbean Air" section with the same kind of problem.
It just seems like somehow the article has taken steps backwards with all of these new, unsourced statements. I mean, I removed a sentence that said that Creoles are the largest group of non-white Catholics in the country. There's so much work to be done with the article. Défenseur 05:06, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

I changed in the section on Zydeco to Black Creol Music rather that Cajun/Creole. It is a Black Creole music, however there are Cajun elements. I changed also Black Creoles and Cajuns to Black Creole again, when making mention of musicians in that sentence. There weren't any Cajuns listed just Black Creoles. User:Barac 08:35 , 25 July 2007

"Anglo-Saxons" and other political attacks in the article

Please observe NPOV rules. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.255.11.149 (talk) 04:05, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

As a social historian specializing in the Creoles of New Orleans, I am E. Simmons, www.thecreoles.org. I note that it is a standard term and description within the literature on this subject to refer to "Anglos" in this manner. It is historic politics. Louisiana was a foreign, sovereign territory under France until U.S. statehood which occured after 1811. For your reference, refer to Professors Hirsch and Logsdon work, "The Americanization of the Creoles" LSU Press, Baton Rouge. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.125.242.200 (talk) 01:52, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

There should be a balance of POV, not "Anglo-Saxons"=bad. 24.255.11.149 (talk) 03:17, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

The Anglo-Saxons were jealous that Creoles of Color owned property both in Louisiana and in Paris, and were very educated and spoke at least three languages. Anyone who knows New Orleans history knows the Anglos brought their racist ideals with them and at every turn made life for Free Blacks difficult. History cannot be changed and those that know New Orleans history know what Anglos did to its citizens. I am sorry however the truth is the truth and Anglo-Saxons cannot white wash the past. Is "balance" another word for "protect Anglos"? --Margrave1206 (talk) 17:14, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Creole Identity Cleanup

Has anyone read the Creole Identity section recently? It definitely does not read like an encyclopedia entry. It comes off more as something read in an opinionated pamphlet for a rally.

I agree with you... the whole article has become worse and worse over time, and I think it requires a complete rewrite. I made a comment about the article's quality above, but I don't think people are particularly concerned with this article. I have a feeling that if I did an extensive rewrite alone, we'd get a lot of these unsourced and opinionated thrown back in right away. Défenseur (talk) 20:04, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

"Creole of color".

Take Buddy Bolden image out of the article, if you are going to have two images place people on the same social level. Don't have a Jazz musician. Also the term Afro-Creole is wrong no one says that. As for Audubon he is a Creole of color however not born in Louisiana. Is it that difficult to find at least four good images of Creoles.--Margrave1206 (talk) 16:32, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Content

This article does not cover the authentic creole people. Cane River Creoles are a huge part of the culture and yet nothing has been said about them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.61.228.15 (talk) 18:26, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I took out the german potato salad myth. First, the potato were introduced to NO by the Irish (still hating on them?) (running from the potato famine ironicly). Second, I've never in thirty years of growing up have heard of potato salad in gumbo nor seen in on any in menu on the coast much less in NO. Maybe the myterious Yale instructor strikes again? Really not sure about the buttered frech beard being german decent either so can't make a call there. But, I do know the eypgtians building pyramids were eating butter so... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.185.236.17 (talk) 22:13, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Last changes

Louisiana Creole in contemporary times does not mean any native-born person, but those who are descendants of the original Creole families, particularly those of mixed race. The previous editor changed quoted content and made it inaccurate.--Parkwells (talk) 16:05, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

I happen to be a French Creole and I can tell you that this is a huge hot-button issue for many people on all sides of this issue. Some Creole People of Color behave today as if the term Creole is their own private property when it certainly is not. There is still a huge French Creole population in Louisiana and a fair sized population of Spanish Creoles. French Creoles not only have to fight the silly concept that Creoles are only mixed race folks, but we also have to constantly deal with being called Cajuns. All Creoles take particular pride in knowing who we are and, for most of us, race is not an issue. If someone is introducing the concept of race into the discussion, we pretty much know that they are probably not natives of Louisiana and that their time might better be spent investigating their own ethnicity and making pronouncements about their own culture. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.69.220.220 (talk) 08:09, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

I am a Creole too, and I think it's the other way around. "White" Creoles are the ones who behave as if the word Creole is their own private property. I read (I think in one of the links in the article) that the word Creole in the nounal sense refered only to "whites", and in the adjectival sense to others. I have edited the article to reflect a more balanced view. I agree with you, however, that race is more of a problem for others than it is for Creoles.--Melwood19 (talk) 02:09, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Improvement needed, badly

At the risk of wasting my breath, I want to say this article needs some serious editing - unfortunately, it's not my area of expertise, so I don't feel up to the task. But in case somebody with more expertise and good writing skills should read this and be motivated to do major surgery, here are some suggestions for improvement:

• The article is too long and rambling; word count could be cut in half and still make all the essential points.
• Some points are repeated 3 or 4 times in different sections; a more logical scheme of organization could remove that problem.
• Nearly the whole article is unsourced, and therefore unreliable. I'm sure, however, there have been masses of scholarly books and articles written on this topic and related points, so that could and should be addressed.
• Not being a resident of New Orleans (though it's always fun to visit), I can tell you that most people coming to this article want to know four main things:

What does creole mean?

Is that the same thing as Cajun?

Are creoles French or Spanish or what?

Are creoles black or white or mixed?

The first paragraph seems to answer the last two questions very briefly, but then as you read through the rest of the article - especially the rambling, unfocused "Migration" and "History" sections - it seems to contradict itself and the waters get very muddied. I can tell you that there are many people in the Anglo-Saxon parts of the South who were brought up, like me, to believe that "creole" = mulatto. Which, it's taken me years to learn, is sometimes true or partly true but not always.

This ought to be an article that enlightens, not confuses. It can still cover history, migration, culture, all those very interesting things, but in a clearer, more concise, more logical, and reliably sourced way. I'm just saying. Textorus (talk) 06:22, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Bias or just prejudice?????????????

Hello everyone, who change this?? How bias can this be??? Who wrote this "The White people of French descent, who usually spoke French as their primary language and practiced Catholicism, then became known as" Someone said white to many times I though I was reading a 1950s text book from the 7th grade. I am sure their education is about the same level as that. In the 18th century a Creole was a person of French and Spanish descent. Ps. You have Blacks who are of French and Spanish descent. As early as the 1740s Free Blacks came from France. Before the civil war if your family was of French, Spanish, or African ancestory and in Louisiana before the purchase you were Creole. After the Civil war it was an issue about people with Black blood being Creoles and they were excluded. I am talking about Jim Crow era New Orleans. Being mixed race does not make you creole "at least in Louisiana" however if your family is in a place long enough you are going to get mixed. Also no one ever called Italians, Irish, Germans, etc creoles, what a dreamer. The way the article was writen sounds like Judge Leander Perez wrote this. I made an edit however, I forgot how to place a note with it. I am Margrave I have an account and will sign this when I have time. However this is terrible, that someone came and ruined this article. One more thing, as of 1829 Free People of color owned $1,000,000. dollars of real estate in New Orleans, many of the Creoles of color lived on The Esplanade and in the Vieux Carre in mansions. The wealthest owned plantations, many homes in New Orleans, and houses in Paris. They spoke 4 languges and were very cultured. People in New Orleans published several books on these subjects over the past 120 years. By the way most free blacks from the 1830s are gone, during the 1850s several thousand left because white americans made life for them unplesant(laws passed that were bias and unlawfull activity by white Americans). The ones that stayed no longer have African features and now pass as white, some know they have black blood others don't. So please don't write the article in such an Anglo bias manner. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.204.175.125 (talk) 04:21, 25 September 2010 (UTC) --Margrave1206 (talk) 17:41, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

I agree that the word "white" is used gratuitously in the article. Although its use, along with words like "mixed-race" makes a little sense in the historical section, their use under the pictures is excessive. When I first put the pictures of P.G.T. Beauregard and Adah Isaacs Menken in the article, I didn't say anything about their "race". But someone put it under their pictures . Why not let people guess? Is there a concern that people will "mistake" Menken (who is pasty) as "white" and Beauregard (who is swarthy) as "mixed-race"?

Also, consider the following sentence from the history section:

"Some Americans were reportedly shocked by aspects of the cultural and linguistic climate of the newly acquired territory: the predominance of French language and Catholicism, the French speaking White French Creoles, the free class of mixed-race people, the strong African traditions of enslaved peoples"

Americans may have been "shocked" by things like the Mayor of New Orleans, Denis Prieur, living openly with his "mixed-race" French Creole common-law wife, and they may have been "shocked" that New Orleans councilman Bernard de Marigny would sell real estate to "mixed-race" French Creoles like his half-sister Eulalie de Mandeville Macarty but not to them, but why would they be shocked by "White" French Creoles?

Also, consider this sentence from the history section:

"Among the eighteen governors of Louisiana between 1803–1865, six were White French Créoles and were monolingual speakers of French: Jacques-Philippe Villèré, Pierre Augustin Charles Bourguignon Derbigny, Armand Julien Beauvais, Jacques Dupré de Terrebonne, André Bienvenue Roman, and Alexandre Mouton."

How is knowing that these governors were "white" French Creoles anymore relevant than knowing that Lieutenant Governor Caesar Antoine was a "mixed-race" French Creole?

People should use "racial" distinctions sparingly, if at all, when talking about Creoles because they are often dubious. Many French Creoles have moved from "mixed-race" to "white" (like Charlie LeDuff, Anatole Broyard, George Herriman, Paul Sentell and Ernest J. Torregano) and from "white" to "mixed-race" (like Louis-Christophe Dumesnil de Glapion, Anastasie De Sarzant, and Susie Guillory Phipps).--Melwood19 (talk) 03:16, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Agree. I see no need to classify every photo according to Jim Crow law segregation. I think some people just have trouble getting their heads around the fact that "Creole" in Louisiana is a cultural historic classification, not racial. Red beans & ricely, Infrogmation (talk) 23:49, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, it's difficult for other people, who are used to categorizing people by "race" (white, black, mixed etc), to get used to the Creole way of categorizing people by culture (franco, anglo etc). The racial categories can, however, help us understand how Creoles were historically, and to a certain extent contemporaneously, seen by non-Creoles. Which is why I don't object to their use altogether. Anyway, thanks for the edits. The article is looking a lot better.

EDIT: By the way, the Creole historian and genealogist, Christophe Landry, has some good articles on his blog about "race" and culture:

http://cerebellum1.wordpress.com/2011/03/05/wearing-the-wrong-spectacles-and-catching-the-time-disease/

http://cerebellum1.wordpress.com/2011/07/19/cajun-or-creole-whats-in-a-name/

--Melwood19 (talk) 04:02, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

I think that some of the recent edits to the article are problematic. They seem to violate Wikipedia's policy with regard to verifiability and neutrality:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability

The editor replaced a sourced sentenced:

"After the Civil War some, like the Creole scholars Charles Gayarre and Alcee Fortier, began to assert that the word Creole referred exclusively to people of European descent."

with an unsourced one:

"After the Civil War some, like the French Creole scholars Charles Gayarre and Alcee Fortier, defended the word Creole which referred exclusively to people of European descent."

This created a contradiction between the last sentence of the first paragragh, and the first sentence of the second paragraph. If the word Creole "referred exclusively to people of European descent", then who were the Creoles of Color and Creole Slaves that "can also be found in colonial-era documents"?

The editor then went through the article changing the word "Creole" to "White French Creole" to reflect this dubious and exlclusive definition. As I've pointed out in the "Last Changes" thread, some "White French Creoles" behave as if the word Creole is their own private property. And the recent edits reflects this biased (and ahistorical) view. There seems to be someone who occasionally comes along and gratuitously sprinkles the article with references to "white" this and "white" that. Whoever that someone is, could you please come to the talk page and help the other wikipedians understand the need for these same edits over and over again, and how this doesn't constitute tenditious editing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Tendentious_editing

In addition to my criticism of the content of the recent edit, I also have some criticism of the style. The history section is cluttered with pictures. The picture of Mitch Landrieu, a contemporary mayor of New Orleans (who I thought was Cajun, not Creole), should not be in the history section:

"Each image should be inside the major section to which it relates (within the section defined by the most recent level 2 heading)"

"Avoid sandwiching text between two images that face each other, or between an image and an infobox."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Images

There's text sandwiched between the picture of Adah Isaacs Menken and the Creole girls. So I think the picture of the Creole girls should go back to where it was. And, as Malgrave, Infrogmation and I have suggested, the pictures don't need to list the "race" of the individuals (a la Naomi Drake and Judge Leander Perez). For the reasons given above, I reverted the edits by "98.178.222.219".

--Melwood19 (talk) 01:06, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Good points. I agree. Feel free to revert the recent changes--you have my support.– Lionel ^(talk) 08:37, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Needs improved writing and sources

I don't know what happened to this article, but it needs better writing and sources. As noted above, while Creole and Cajun descendants may intermarry today, historically the terms related to quite different groups of people. The historical terms and groups need to be established before talking about how everyone mixes today. Get citations! There is plenty of material in books and online.Parkwells (talk) 17:22, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

Creoles of Color

Could you not find images of Creoles in New Orleans?????

http://www.frenchcreoles.com/CreoleCulture/freepeopleofcolor/freepeopleofcolor.htm

http://nutrias.org/~nopl/exhibits/fmc/fmc.htm

http://library.nsula.edu/assets/Scholars-thesis/agnemet.jpg

http://library.nsula.edu/la-scholars-college-research/

http://www.everyculture.com/multi/Bu-Dr/Creoles.html

--Margrave1206 (talk) 17:41, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

Creoles in Louisiana don't have images??

The rich Creoles had people to paint their portraits, and there are many books and collection that show images of Creoles in Louisiana ones of color also had their images recorded.

http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/6032/agnemet.jpg http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/2421/headdress.gif http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/4638/marielaveau.jpg http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/2162/tignon1.jpg

--Margrave1206 (talk) 18:17, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

fact tags

Since the article has a number of in-line citations, the desire for more citations (if needed) should be made with specific fact/citation needed tags at the end of sentences an editor feels are most in need of support or suspected of being original research. A catch-all tag at the top seems stale and gives no guidance on where to add citations.ANE.Scholar (talk) 15:30, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

External Links

There are some obvious omissions in the article. The history section doesn't mention the Creole participation in the American Revolutionary War and the War of 1812. The language section doesn't mention Creole literature. And there is no mention of the Creole diaspora in L.A., Chicago, Houston, Mexico etc. I don't know if there's a way to squeeze it into the article without it becoming too lengthy, so I added some external links for those who want to explore the subjects further. I think the article has been greatly improved. Thanks to all those who made recent edits.--Melwood19 (talk) 05:13, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Can't trust/follow this article

Here's like, its third sentence.

The most precise current definition of a creole is a person of non-American ancestry, whether African or European, who was born in the Americas.

Useless.

64.134.64.52 (talk) 15:58, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Cuisine section needs cleaning up - awkward and contains insulting conjecture

Of particular offense: "After the Civil War, some French Creoles whose fortunes had collapsed moved out of New Orleans back to Creole Country, taking their recipes with them. Most of the food now made in New Orleans is more for tourists and is no longer traditional."

It is nonfactual to state or imply that the food presented as creole made in New Orleans is "more for tourists" and it is an untruth to suggest that it is "no longer traditional."

It is true that modern creole cuisine in New Orleans is no longer commonly "puritan" but rather, lends itself to and amalgamates with Acadienne, Spanish, French and English influence. They have evolved the same as they do in any culturally diverse area. However, there are plenty of "traditional" recipes that have been preserved and passed down by "puritan" families. Some of these are accessible to tourists and some are not.

Furthermore, to suggest Louisiana and/or New Orleans Creole cooking is prepared only for the purpose of pandering to tourism is insulting, arrogant--verging on racist. Recipes, the food...these are beloved family traditions and everyone has pride in their own. Red beans are still eaten almost habitually on Mondays--regardless of whether or not it's "laundry day."

Such a statement is like summing up "soul food" to fried chicken and watermelon; it's the ignorant propagation of a stereotype that steamrolls the validity of an entire People.

Please fix this.

navkat (talk) 07:13, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Places with Significant Populations

This section was deleted recently. It should be added back since it was fairly accurate to begin with. It originally read: Louisiana, East Texas, Los Angeles County, California, coastal Mississippi, Chicago, Illinois, coastal Alabama, Detroit, Michigan and Florida panhandle. Since the definition of Creole is pre-Louisiana purchase, then populations that descended from that definition should be added back. That would include areas close to Louisiana, such as Mississippi and Alabama, as well as areas formally populated by the French, such as Detroit. The problem is that being Creole is treated like a race rather than a heritage/ethnic destination. Like Latinos, Creoles can be any race and color and the new images should include darker-skinned people, such as Gino Delafose, Fats Domino, and Zydeco Joe to break that "light-skinned" stereotype.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Louisiana_Creole_people&action=submit#http://articles.latimes.com/1996-04-26/news/ls-62983_1_creole-heritage

http://thejambalayamagazine.com/2014/10/11/passe-blanc-blacks-who-passed-for-white/

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Louisiana_Creole_people&action=submit#http://www.al.com/specialreport/mobileregister/tri-02-24-11.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Louisiana_Creole_people&action=submit#http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~flwfgs/alabamacreolefamilies.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.13.31.24 (talk) 03:42, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

Read through and updated, I'm a CANE CREOLE

I read through and fixed grammar and such. There were 3 or 4 paragraphs that ended with the Spanish Creole and were hard to understand, so I wrote them the best I could. I also made Evangeline Creole section much, much better. I am glad they left me the sources. I am particularly happy that they kept Natchitoches Parish apart from Creole recognition as it is the oldest settlement in Louisiana, older than NO, and deserves to be separate but equal. I know that Cane River Creole are seeking Native American status because of it.67.45.96.53 (talk) 07:03, 9 December 2015 (UTC)