Talk:Louisiana Creole people

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Historian New to Wikipedia

Hello, everyone. Excellent article. I'm a historian with a specialty in French colonial history in North America, particularly in "La Louisiane." I'd love to use my research to contribute to the article and maybe make a few very minor additions. (I'm also a writer and love copy-editing, so I'll look over the article for typos, as well.) I'll thoroughly explain any edit, to the extent that I'm able given the character limit. (Like I mentioned above, the additions should all be minor ones). Hopefully, we can discuss, as well, if any questions come up. (And of course you can revert any edit I make, but I won't be adding any content that's subjective or [to the best of my knowledge] objectionable [just a few dates and details about the early days in New France as that pertains to the topic of the article], so, hopefully, that won't be necessary.) I'm working on a different project right now. so I may not be back for awhile (it could be as long as a couple months or so before I can really start Wikipedia-ing properly!). Just wanted to give everyone a heads-up. Great job, everyone, and have a great day! :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by SteGenevieve (talk) 17:22, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Welcome, just make sure you sign your comments on talk pages (use four tildes, ~~~~) and make sure your edits are supported by reliable sources. —Carter (Tcr25) (talk) 17:34, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Louisiana Creole people

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Louisiana Creole people's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "carlbrasseauxglennconrad":

• From Saint-Domingue: Carl A. Brasseaux, Glenn R. Conrad (1992). The Road to Louisiana: The Saint-Domingue Refugees, 1792-1809. New Orleans: Center for Louisiana Studies, University of Southwestern Louisiana. pp. 9, 10, 11.
• From Saint Dominicans: Carl A. Brasseaux, Glenn R. Conrad (1992). The Road to Louisiana: The Saint-Domingue Refugees, 1792-1809. New Orleans: Center for Louisiana Studies, University of Southwestern Louisiana. pp. 4, 5, 6, 8, 11, 15, 21, 22, 33, 38, 108, 109, 110, 143, 173, 174, 235, 241, 242, 243, 252, 253, 254, 268.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 21:16, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

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Creole Flag

The flag currently in the article isn't really recognized as the Creole flag, and I think it's just a concept flag from Frenchcreoles.com [1]. The flag that most Creoles use (online, at least - on MySpace: [2] [3]) is one made by a group called C.R.E.O.L.E., Inc in 1987. It's also the one on "Flags of the World." [4] The image's copyright status is confusing to me (I've never uploaded an image before), so I'm just putting this out there for whoever wanted to mess with that... Défenseur 04:25, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

This flag was created by Pete Bergeron of the non-profit organization C.R.E.O.L.E. INC in 1987. Their flag ideology is based around Senegal and Mali (two of the flags demonstrated in the C.R.E.O.L.E. INC. flag): "It is a fact that the word Creole had its origin in Africa, citing the countries of Senegal and Mali," they say, "It is documented in the annals of history, that the creoles of Senegal, whether as freemen or as slaves, traveled directly from Senegal and Mali to Louisiana." They further explain their definition of Creole is focused on specifically African descended Creoles: "The members of C.R.E.O.L.E., INC. define Creole as individuals of African descent whose cultural roots have been influenced by other cultures such as French, Spanish, and/or Indian."

Their website also explains the parts of the flag:

"The upper left section, a white fleur de lis on a blue field, represents Louisiana's French heritage. On the lower left and upper right sections, West African heritage is represented by the Mali Republic National flag and the Senagal Republic National flag (both green, yellow and red). Spanish Colonial heritage is depicted by the Tower of Castille (gold tower on red field) on the lower right section. A white cross dividing the four symbols represents the Christian faith accepted by the Muslim and Islamic from Senegal and Mali in Louisiana.

We have a Wikipedia article already dedicated specifically to Louisiana Creoles of African heritage at Creoles of color, and this C.R.E.O.L.E. INC. flag is there too. I recommend that we immediately replace the C.R.E.O.L.E. INC. flag on this page with the Pelican flag of the State of Louisiana "", similar to how we use Mobile, Alabama's flag "" for the Alabama Creole people, and that we solely use the C.R.E.O.L.E. INC. flag specifically for the Creole of color article "". Aearthrise (talk) 16:53, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

References

I'd disagree that the Louisiana Creole flag is associated solely with Creoles of Color. It may have originated with C.R.E.O.L.E. Inc., but it's been widely adopted to represent Louisiana Creoles broadly and is recognized as such. The point you make about it not being comprehensive has been made by others, but even those criticisms recognize that the flag is used broadly by and for Louisiana Creoles. All that said, it would be worthwhile expanding the flag section of this article to better describe the Louisiana Creole flag and to incorporate some of the criticism. —Carter (Tcr25) (talk) 17:26, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

References

Although C.R.E.O.L.E. Inc. may use this as the "Creole flag," this is not the entire Creole civilization of Louisiana "" to which the majority of this page is dedicated. It is the representation the 1970's Creole definition with the meaning of Black Frenchmen of Louisiana ""- indeed this is the entire scope of the article Creoles of color. I vote that we change the flag on Louisiana Creole people to the Pelican flag of Louisiana. Aearthrise (talk) 18:50, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

It's not about voting or personal perspectives; it's about what reliable sources say, and the Louisiana Creole flag's use isn't as limited as you're asserting. If you have reliable sources to back up the claim that the Louisiana Creole flag isn't broadly associated with Louisiana Creole culture, then that can be considered; otherwise, as an encyclopedia we have to describe things as they are, not how we might wish they were. —Carter (Tcr25) (talk) 00:19, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

Although you demand for me to provide evidence from reliable sources that this flag isn't related to Creole culture, this is not how asking for evidence works. As for your evidence, everything that you provided to backup your claim comes from sources that use the modernized definition of black Louisiana Frenchmen.

This C.R.E.O.L.E. INC. flag is related to Creole culture in that it's specified for Creoles of color. We should make a distinction between the scope of these articles; this one where Creole refers to the older Louisiana Creole civilization "", and the other where Creole refers to the modern black Frenchman of Louisiana "", for which C.R.E.O.L.E. Inc. promotes the flag. Aearthrise (talk) 17:49, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

At the risk of this just going in circles, this flag may have been designed by C.R.E.O.L.E. Inc. with a more narrow focus in mind, but its use has become broader than that. The three sources I linked to above all recognize it as representing contemporary Louisiana Creole culture as a whole, not just Creoles of Color. You're trying to draw lines that aren't supported by reliable sources. —Carter (Tcr25) (talk) 18:16, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

You see, you admit it yourself. You say all of your sources recognizing it as representing the contemporary meaning of Louisiana Creole culture, and it is, it represents the Creoles of color definition of today.

You're saying that these lines of a difference between the older Louisiana Creole civilization definition and the contemporary Louisiana Creole definition are completely false has no base. These lines were created during the 1970's Renaissance in Louisiana where Cajun came to mean the white country French culture and Creole meant the black country French culture, elaborated on in Creoles of color.

The flags we use on the articles should be a reflection of the content, and the main idea of this specific article refers mostly to the older Louisiana Creole civilization "" with a few mentions and explanations of further contemporary Creole of color culture "". Aearthrise (talk) 18:54, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying there's a historic Louisiana Creole culture that no longer exists because it's been divided into Cajun and Creoles of Color. I don't believe that's supported by reliable sources (and it's not supported by my personal experiences, for whatever that's worth). Yes, in the mid-1900s, racial coding of Creole identity did become more common, but, as this article notes, historically and contemporarily Creole identity isn't limited by race or ethnicity. Creoles of Color is a subset of Louisiana Creoles, both now and in the past. The flag may have originated with a Creoles of Color organization, but it's use is broader than that today. If you want to look at splitting the article into a "History of Louisiana Creole identity" (or something) the flag wouldn't be appropriate if the focus is pre-1987, but this article isn't just about the historical. —Carter (Tcr25) (talk) 19:22, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

New edits

Still needs more editing, most of the newer edits include references from:

Roman Catholic archives as well are found in the World and International records on main genealogical sites. will provide citations soon

If anyone can help, may need some with the formatting. 💜 Bishopesoteria (talk) 15:45, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

Creole vs Cajun

"The word is not a racial label and does not imply mixed racial origins—people of any race can and have identified as Louisiana Creoles."

Maybe in the past but not any more. An article titled What's the difference between Cajun and Creole — or is there one? published in 2020 on the Historic New Orleans Collection site: "Today common understanding holds that Cajuns are white and Creoles are Black or mixed race; Creoles are from New Orleans, while Cajuns populate the rural parts of South Louisiana."

I know that singer Zachary Richard, who is white and born in the Lafayette area, and whose native tongue is Louisiana French, identifies himself as a Cajun, not a Creole. Lubiesque (talk) 14:19, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Maintenance tag

Hi Carlstak just saw your recent edit. Which part exactly needed referencing because leads do not require citations if otherwise referenced in the body of the article. Did you conclude that it was not present elsewhere in whole or partly? I can’t tell. This edit is a re-addition of a consistently removed text regarding the influx of Creoles from Saint-Domingue in the lead, most notably by unregistered IP users. Savvyjack23 (talk) 16:51, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for reminding me of this, Savvyjack23, I'd forgotten about it. As you can see, I've amended the text, and added some information and sources. That text you refer to wasn't wholly supported, but now it is, I think. The whole article is sorely lacking in sources, and needs a fact-check. I specialize in those, but I don't have time to do everything. I have other incomplete fact-checks going on various articles, and I'm easily distracted by egregious edits.;-) Do you have the time to add some sources to this article? Carlstak (talk) 20:21, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

No worries at all, I know what you mean! Thank you for doing that and yes, I am actively looking to help source as we speak. Cheers! Savvyjack23 (talk) 05:58, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll try to help too in odd moments. Carlstak (talk) 16:09, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Creole VS Creoles of Color

Creoles and Creoles of Color are explained as different things, the latter being a subset of the former. So later in the article, when discussing the racism encountered by the Creoles of Color, they are only referred to as Creoles. I feel this is confusing because it doesn't identify the group as it had earlier in the article.

The Creole definition was given to as follows :

"Louisiana Creoles (French: Créoles de la Louisiane, Louisiana Creole: Moun Kréyòl la Lwizyàn, Spanish: Criollos de Luisiana) are a Louisiana French ethnic group descended from the inhabitants of colonial Louisiana before it became a part of the United States during the period of both French and Spanish rule. They share cultural ties such as the traditional use of the French, Spanish, and Creole languages and predominant practice of Catholicism.

The term Créole was originally used by French Creoles to distinguish people born in Louisiana from those born elsewhere, thus drawing a distinction between Old-World Europeans and Africans from their Creole descendants born in the New World. The word is not a racial label—people of European, African, or mixed ancestry can and have identified as Louisiana Creoles since the 18th century. After the Sale of Louisiana, the term "Creole" took on a more political meaning and identity, especially for those people of Latinate culture. The Catholic Latin-Creole culture in Louisiana contrasted greatly to the Anglo-Protestant culture of Yankee Americans."

The key phrase is "people of European, African or mixed ancestry have identified as Louisiana Creoles since the 18th Century" Creoles of Color should be used in the latter part of the article when it talks of Federal and Texan control of the territory and the subsequent Federal rule. 69.43.98.245 (talk) 14:37, 15 October 2024 (UTC)