Talk:Lotfi A. Zadeh

"ZADEH" means "SON OF"

his name is "Askar Zadeh"; which means "from the generation of Askar". why do the article calls him "Zadeh"? it means "son or daughter of ..." of "from the generation of ..."

Saeed.Veradi (talk) 16:56, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I imagine it's because Zadeh is the name he uses — like "Johnson" means "Son of John," but it's also a family name. Thanks for your interest. Sincerely, GeorgeLouis (talk) 02:39, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Jew or Muslim?

The article has been put in the category American Muslims. If Mr. Zadeh's mother was Jewish, then, technically, according to Judaic law, he is a Jew. In any case, such religion categories should only be applied if the subject self-identifies as an adherent of the religion, and even then, in my opinion, only if that fact has some relevance or notability. Wikipedia does not place (for example) Giuseppe Peano in category Italian Roman Catholics. Mr. Zadeh received his high-school education at a school founded by Presbyterian missionaries. Is there any specific evidence that Mr. Zadeh is a professing Muslim? If not, this categorization should be removed. 199.3.224.3 (talk) 01:41, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

I happened to know Mr. Zadeh's close family friend which confirmed that his father was Muslim. I am not arguing if he is Muslim or not, but the question is why the author of the article has to mention his mother's religion background (Jewish) but fail to introduce his father's religious background (Islam)? I think the author of the article should have also mentioned the Muslim background since he has mentioned the Jewish background or neither of the two. 03:39, 26 January 2009 (EST) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alisharma (talk • contribs)

He is a jew, or what?

Is that important? Probably he is not. PERICLES

According to Persian_Jews he is. Tsf 18:06, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

As far as I know, his mother was Russian, and father Azeri. There are no sources saying otherwise. Grandmaster 12:50, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, probably he's not important. [1] --Alperen 16:19, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

mabye his mother was russian jew?!!!!

His father was an Azeri Muslim and his mother was Russian Jew. I think the author of the article should have also mentioned the Muslim background since he has mentioned the Jewish background or neither of the two.

There is no need to mention his mother's religion. There is no credible source showing that his mother was from Jewish background or that she was an adherent of the Judaist religion. Besides, we didn't mention his father's religion (which we are certain about), so there's no reason whatsoever to mention his mother's.--Grinevitski (talk) 07:17, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Someone removed the ethnicity of his father from the article, and I added it back. I don’t think that this information should be suppressed. Grandmaster 10:33, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I found the discussion in this section very amusing in a providentially self-referential way, although I wouldn't want to spoil anybody's fun in discovering the reason himself. hehe. --Philopedia (talk) 21:09, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Lofti Zadeh is still alive so it would be only fair to ask him how does he want to to be classified regarding this mater. Reading his interviews I'd strongly suspect that the'd prefer no to have any religious label attached to his name. And once you resolve that please remove these these "discussions" - it's quite disrespectful for people to be publicly debating imagined religious affiliation of such a prominent scientist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.78.165.234 (talk) 14:38, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

This page is for useful discussion between editors of things which are important for the article, and this question definitely is that. There's nothing whatsoever "disrespectful" about discussing something like a subjects religious beliefs, it's important to us that we get it right. Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:57, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Maintenance

Added some sectioning for context, the scientist info box (first changes anonymously), etc. Lycurgus 23:08, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Lotfi Asker Zadeh was born in Baku, Azerbaijan. The article says so, therefore I reverted the edit that changed the birthplace to Iran. --Grandmaster 10:15, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Asker vs. Askar

Why do we have two different spelling of the name? Anyone has a source that says which one is correct.
We know that the vowel "a" in Azarbaijan and "al" (meaning hand) by Iranian Azarbaijanis (pronounced like "a" in "Sam" in English) is exactly the same as "ə" in Azərbaycan and "əl" ("a" in Azəri Latin alphabet is used for things like "alma", meaning apple). The letter "ə" becomes "e" when the words are imported in English, confusing big time and is a great source of argument over spelling and pronouncing things. For pronouncing "e" as in "pen" Azəri Latin alphabet uses "e", e.g. gedib, meaning gone.
However, Lotfi Zadeh had an Iranian passport when migrating to America so it is highly likely that his passport would have shown "Askar Zadeh" instead of "Asker Zadeh". Please provide sources in either case and lets make it one spelling across. Persian Magi (talk) 08:36, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Since no viable source has been provided for "Asker", I am suggesting to move the page to Lotfi Askar Zadeh or Lotfi A. Zadeh and redirect this page to that page instead. If I do not see a comment here for a while I will do so. Please let me know otherwise. Persian Magi (talk) 11:46, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Mr. Zadeh uses "Asker" himself; see for example here. Further evidence is this news article and this UCB page (go to 1969 and do a mouseover on the rightmost book, Systems Theory. However, I would agree to moving the page to Lotfi Zadeh (over the existing redirect), since that is the most commonly used name. 199.3.224.3 (talk) 02:12, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

yes. askar (عسکَر) is correct in arabic. it means "army". it became a name after "askari"; 11th leader of shea islam who was imprisoned in a military base for the rest of his life.(Saeed.Veradi (talk) 16:56, 2 February 2009 (UTC))

"asker"? (عسکِر) it has no meaning in Arabic. check it in dictionary or wiktionary or ask any arab. how has someone made such a mistake? arabic is a very sensitive language about it's vowel letters. changing e to a can change the meaning of the word to it's opposite. like Montazer (one who's waiting for something) and Montazar (something you're waiting for)

Nationality

Nationality is not place of birth. Someone, please bring a citation that he is an Azeri national officially.

However, he definitely is:

• an Iranian citizen automatically since his father was Iranian Azari and he grew up in Iran and travelled with Iranian passport to the USA first,
• an American citizen where he lives now,
• possibly a Russian citizen through his mother,
• possibly an Azeri citizen because of place of birth (not sure if that is an official stautus and/or if he ever needed the official status and documents).

Anyhow, I put all 4 in the list in good faith. Citations might confirm/deny the latter two of the above list.

Persian Magi (talk) 23:17, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

He is American by nationality, Azeri by ethnicity. The nationality tab should indicate that he is American. Grandmaster (talk) 11:13, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

People can have double citizenship, like many Iranians living in the USA. Some countries do not allow that say Holland. You lose your citizenship when you acquire another one if you are from Holland. But with Iran it is not the case.

He definitely has an Iranian passport and left Iran with that passport. He possibly have a Russian ID for his mother, if he had applied for it and needed it to travel to Russia. Anyhow, I am happy as is.

You like to own him, don't you? :) How about Nezami with his poems about glory of Iran? That reminds me that I have to bear inmind that it is a crime to say Nezami was not an ethnic Azeri when in Republic of Azerbaijan. I also need to take a Russian-Azeri dictionary there with myself as you guys have mixed my Gozal Anadilimi with lots of those Russian words! :) By the way, do you ever learn Persian so that you can read Nezami and more than half of Fozuli's poems? Just curious! Persian Magi (talk) 02:04, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Why don't you keep this to the topic? Are you here to wage some personal war or to write encyclopedia? Grandmaster (talk) 07:08, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

OK. Ignore the last paragraph of mine above. Although the questions were relevant, I have to admit, they were off the topic. I thought you may answer those in a good spirit of fun. I was half joking and did not realize you will take it too personally. My apologies!

I was/am geniunely after information/indication on how much Persian and stuff like Nezami poems are taught in Azerbaijan Republic. I am also interested to know how much Russian influence in Azari language has had.

Anyhow, I guess I may be better go and ask those questions in a more obviously appropriate topic/forum then. You have every right not to answer them here. If you prefer you can put in the answers or any useful links into my talk page. Thanks. Persian Magi (talk) 01:44, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

He holds Iranian and Amercian citizenship, I have added a source in which he hisemlf explains his citizneship status.--07fan (talk) 06:31, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

The nationality issue has come up again. I have reverted, but I am not 100% sure whether I reverted to the correct nationality. I think people familiar with this area need to improve that aspect of this biog in order to put the matter to rest. John Vandenberg (talk) 10:43, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

His current nationality in terms of citizenship is American. He was formerly a citizen of Iran, but he is not now. He says that himself in an interview:

You left Europe many years ago and you have lived in USA to these days.

I am the citizen of the United States. I was born in Baku, but I was not Soviet citizen, I was an Iranian citizen. In 1944 I came to the States as an immigrant, not as a student. Iran is a wonderful country but I could not do scientific work. Becoming rich was possible, but I did not want to be rich and spending my life playing cards. That is why I came to the States. I started my graduate studies at MIT, where in 1946 I received my master degree. I could to stay there to continue my doctoral studies, but my parents moved to New York this time. I wanted to be near them; therefore I started study at Columbia University. [2]

As for ethnicity, he is of mixed Azerbaijani and Russian origin. And he was indeed born in Azerbaijan SSR, since Azerbaijan was part of the USSR at the time. He grew up in Iran and was Iranian citizen until he moved to the US. Grandmaster (talk) 11:29, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

You don't lose your Iranian citizenship, unless you renounce it. The source says he had Iranian citizenship ( and doesn't say he is a former Iranian citizen, or that he's no longer an Iranian citzien), so please do not alter sourced martial. --07fan (talk) 03:55, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

The source says that he used to be a citizen of Iran, but it does not say that he still has an Iranian passport. Lotfi zade says that he is an American citizen, but never says that he is an Iranian citizen. He says that he "was" an Iranian citizen, i.e. he is not now. So please either present a source saying that he is an Iranian citizen at present, or refrain from original research. Thank you. Grandmaster (talk) 04:24, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

He means was solely an Iranian citizen before also becoming an American citizen in 1994, but he doesn't say that he lost his Iranian citizenship as a result, or that he is a "former" Iranian citizen, and no longer an Iranian citizen. We can't interpret sourced martial, to make such a conclusion that he's a former Iranian citizen, unless there is a source that says so explicitly. As I explained before, you don't lose your Iranian citizenship by becoming an Amercian citizen, millions of Iranians in USA are dual citizens.--07fan (talk) 04:30, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

He says: I was an Iranian citizen. This cannot be interpreted as "I am an Iranian citizen". If you have any other source saying otherwise, please present it, but this one says that he was an Iranian citizen in the past, and at present he is the citizen of the US. We cannot give sources our personal interpretation, that is considered an original research. Grandmaster (talk) 04:35, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

You're taking I was an Iranian citizen out of context, he's talking about past and his migration to US as an Iranian before he also became an American, and therefore uses a past tense. He never says "I am a former Iranian citizen", and saying "I am a US citizen" does not contradict his Iranian citizenship, as millions of US citizens are also Iranian citizens. --07fan (talk) 04:51, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I’m not taking anything out of context. These are Lotfi zade’s own words: 1) I am a US citizen; 2) I was an Iranian citizen. And you are giving the source your personal interpretation, which is something you are not allowed to do. The words “I was an Iranian citizen” cannot be interpreted like “I am an Iranian citizen at present”. If you have a source saying that Lotfi zade is currently an Iranian citizen, please present it, otherwise stop removing sourced info. This is a WP:BLP article and it should not contain unverifiable claims. If you wish we can take it for dispute resolution and ask third party editors to comment. Grandmaster (talk) 05:14, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Unverifiable claims? Saying he's a "former Iranian" is an Unverifiable claim. The man grew up in Iran, moved to US on an Iranian passport, and even after moving to US, lived and worked in US and traveled around the world as an Iranian for decades, and did not acquire an American citizenship until 1994, three years after he had retired, and there is no indication that he ever lost his Iranian citizenship. You are reinterpreting the source, making a straw man argument that he's not an Iranian all of sudden, based on what grammar tense he used in his interview, when he's never said I am a "former Iranian" or "I am no longer an Iranian". Regardless, I've added a 2005 BBC Persian interview [3] in which Lotfi Asker Zadeh is referred to and refers to himself as an Iranian. BBC is a reliable source.--07fan (talk) 05:38, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Does he say there that he is a citizen of Iran? Please provide precise translation of the relevant quote. Thank you Grandmaster (talk) 05:49, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

The question is, does he still hold an Iranian passport as his second nationality? I make no interpretations, the source that I quoted does not say that he is an Iranian citizen at present, he says that he was one before he moved to the US. If your new source states otherwise, please provide the accurate translation. Grandmaster (talk) 05:52, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

"Lotfi Asker Zadeh , Iranian scientist and..." If you seriously believe that Lotfi Asker Zadeh has renounced or somehow magically lost his Iranian citizenship, you could just e-mail him and ask him if he ever lost or renounced his citizenship. By the way, passport and citizenship are not the same thing. You could be a citizen, without renewing your passport. --07fan (talk) 06:05, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

It does not say that he has an Iranian citizenship. Please stick to WP:VERIFY and provide a source saying that Mr. Lotfi Zade has dual citizenship. Otherwise your claims are WP:OR and violation of wikipedia rules. All the info must rely on verifiable sources. Grandmaster (talk) 06:19, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

BBC calls him Iranian, Iranian means a citizen of Iran. And it's already been established that he lived and work in US as an Iranian citizen and on an Iranian passport. Once an Iranian citizen, one remains an Iranian citizen until he or she renounces it. Zadeh becoming an American citizen three years after he retired, has no bearing on his Iranian citizenship status. According to the law, "Voluntary acquisition of a foreign citizenship does not lead to automatic loss of Iranian citizenship". [4]. You need to provide a source saying that Zadeh has renounced his Iranian citizenship, or better yet contact Zadeh and ask him for a comment, otherwise your assertion that he is a "former Iranian" is WP:OR. --07fan (talk) 06:34, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Iranian does not necessarily mean citizenship. It just means that he hails from Iran, from where he moved to the USA. The burden of proof is on you, not me. I will ask for third party opinion on this, I hope you do not mind. Grandmaster (talk) 06:43, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

The burden of proof is on you to prove that he's a "former" Iranian, in face of evidence to the contrary,. As for "third party opinion", you could just e-mail and ask Lotfi Asker Zadeh himself, I am not sure why you don't want to seek Zadeh's own opinion. --07fan (talk) 06:57, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't think this is a very serious issue, and I think this can be resolved by presenting proper sources. You are making claims about citizenship, so it is you who needs to contact Mr Lotfi Zade. I asked for a third opinion here: [5] I hope this will help to resolve the dispute. Grandmaster (talk) 07:04, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Proper sources have been presented that he holds Iranian citizenship and that Iranian citizenship is not lost by acquisition of a foreign citizenship , but you're still making a claim that he somehow no longer holds an Iranian citizenship without any proof, so it's up you to bring a source to that effect or contact Zadeh and ask him for a comment.--07fan (talk) 07:38, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Numerous sources on Google books refer to Zadeh as either Iranian or Iranian-American. [[6]]. --07fan (talk) 07:50, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

So far I haven’t seen a single source stating that he is currently a citizen of Iran. You haven’t presented a single source that clearly stated “Lotfi Zadeh is at present a citizen of Iran”. We have a source on his American citizenship, but none on any other (there were claims on his Azerbaijani citizenship as well). Please note that any info included in the article needs to be verifiable from an independent source. Again, this is not a big deal, just a matter of accuracy of information about the living person. Grandmaster (talk) 09:34, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Maybe we can avoid this whole issue by not interpreting “nationality” strictly as “citizenship”. According to the article “Nationality”: Nationality can also mean membership in a cultural/historical group related to political or national identity, even if it currently lacks a formal state. In that case Lotfi Zadeh would be American, Azerbaijani and Iranian, maybe Russian too, but not sure about that. Grandmaster (talk) 09:50, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

All the sources I have provided, and can be found on Google books, are verifiable, and refer to him as a national of Iran or an Iranian-American. So we're not just going to redfeine nationality and call him "Russian" or "Azerbaijani" national, just because you're refusing to accept WP:RS sources explicitly calling him an Iranian, or an Iranian-American, and have made an unsubstantiated assertion or claim that he's no longer an Iranian citizen. Meanwhile, I will try to get in touch with Lotfi Asker Zadeh who I've had the honor of meeting at several Iranian community events, to make a comment on this issue. I don't think he'll be very pleased that an editor on Wikipedia is calling him a "former Iranian" and reinterpreting his words as meaning he's no longer an Iranian. --07fan (talk) 11:01, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Once again, none of sources that were presented so far says anything about his Iranian citizenship. Not a single one. That is your personal interpretation. The only source that mentions his Iranian citizenship (and actually uses the word "citizenship") is Mr Lotfi Zadeh himself, and he says I was an Iranian citizen. As we both know, in English "was" and "is" have different meanings. I would appreciate if you could seek Mr. Lotfi Zadeh's clarification on this and present it in a verifiable form. My interest, same as everyone else's here, is nothing but an accurate presentation of the info about this wonderful person. We have the rules that we need to observe. Grandmaster (talk) 11:42, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

As I search Wikipedia for the keyword Azeri and Iran , I find out here is an on-going discussion. The nationality question is one of those that are really non important.I don't think any country like Iran needs persons to introduce itself! Prof. Lotfi Zadeh has a dual citizenship of USA and Iran.That is because the difficulty of discarding Iranian citizenship in Iranian law! To get out of Iranian citizenship, the person have to write an official request and go after a lengthy process;But on real life he is dominantly a citizen of USA and he view himself as American citizen and not Iranian citizen.One of my cousins that visited him previous year said that his Persian language was not so good after all this year and he had difficulty in talking in Persian.Overall I think it's better not to be over sensitive about his nationality.--Alborz Fallah (talk) 19:48, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree and said many times that I don't think that it is a big issue. However it is a matter of verifiability. If we include info about his second nationality, it should be properly sourced. If there is a proper source for any other nationality of Mr Lotfi Zadeh, I have no problem with its inclusion. However we cannot include info based on personal assumptions. Wiki rules do not allow that. Grandmaster (talk) 04:25, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

User:Alborz Fallah is also pointing out a logical flaw in your argument, due to the fact that once you're an Iranian citzien, it's almost impossible to lose an Iranian ciztienship...so the only assumption here is on your part that Zadeh actualy lost his Iranian citzienship relying on your own interpretation of a figure of speech, and without any solid proof.--07fan (talk) 21:15, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Grandmaster, you are drawing all your conclusions from a sentence from Lotfi Zadeh: "I was an Iranian citizen". Even if he says "I am not an Iranian citizen anymore." That does not make him a non-Iranian. If you are an Iranian citizen, the only way to become non-Iranian is to formally denounce your citizenship. For example, even if he says in an interview that he is no longer an Iranian and goes to apply for a passport to Iran, in extreme politically motivated circumstances he might have a slight chance of legal ramifications, such as dealing with court etc., for the interview when he arrives in Iran but for acquiring the passport he will have no issues. He won't need to apply for Iranian citizenship as by default he is an Iranian citizen already. He does not have to be given Iranian citizenship.
It is also true if you go and do such interview tomorrow and say you no longer are an Azeri or American citizen. That does not deprive you from your citizenship. Your citizenship is an official status and can not be ruled out by your interview. Denouncing a citizenship has to be formal, in case of Iranian, and by voluntarily acquiring other citizenship, in case of some countries like Australia.
Therefore, we know he was an Iranian citizen. We also know that he has NOT denounced it neither verbally nor officially. So your conclusion of that simple statement is only speculative opinion of yours and not something of Wikipedia material. Persian Magi (talk) 23:37, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Again, original research. Any claim needs to have a source. So please provide a source for his second nationality. You yourself were asking for a source for his Azerbaijani nationality above, see the very first line in your first posting in this section, and you were right by doing it. It is the same requirement for the source for any other nationality. I would not mind inclusion of any info as long as it is properly sourced. Grandmaster (talk) 04:25, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Grandmaster, BBC Persian says his father was a journalist from Ardabil, Iran.

Here is also another link from an Azeri page about Lotfi Zadeh's father:

Born of an Azerbaijani father on assignment as a journalist from Iran, and a Russian mother who was a physician, Zadeh enjoyed a privileged life those early years of his life in Baku. But at the age of ten, when Stalin introduced collectivization of farms throughout the Soviet Union, widespread famine followed, and the Zadeh family moved back to his father's homeland. There he continued his education in English in a private Presbyterian school in Tehran. After high school, he sat for the national university exams and placed second in the entire country. In 1942, he was graduated from the University of Tehran in electrical engineering.

I hope you agree with me that there is no research involved in accepting the simple fact that he was an Iranian through his Iranian father. Persian Magi (talk) 02:12, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I never said that he was not. In fact, I quoted his interview where Mr Lotfi Zadeh says that he was an Iranian citizen before he moved to the US. The question is if Mr Lotfi Zadeh still has Iranian citizenship as his second nationality? Any source on that would be good. Grandmaster (talk) 07:16, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Are you asking me to prove he has not lost the status since then? Why do you think he has? Persian Magi (talk) 07:56, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

You claim that he has Iranian citizenship at present, please present a source. That's what wiki rules require. We need a source, not personal assumptions. Grandmaster (talk) 05:11, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Grandmaster, you keep going in circles. You agree that he was Iranian citizen and do not debate that. Then why should I bring evidence that the status has not changed? Do you, for every person in Wikipedia, check sources for their current citizenship, just in case if their citizenship changes? Do you need evidence for someone being alive when you are saying he is still alive in Wikipedia? Or you seek evidence if a claim is made that former alive is dead now.Persian Magi (talk) 09:37, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Because Mr Lotfi Zadeh mentions only US citizenship as his present one. No info on any other. So we need a source. Grandmaster (talk) 09:50, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

We have sources for his Iranian citizenship, such as BBC. You are bringing about an interview to disprove them. Therefore, it all depends on what you are "inferring" from the interview. Not everyone agrees with what you perceive from that interview. I do not. I think he was rather emphasizing the fact that he was not a Russian citizen at that time and nothing more. Also it might be considered research if you do push for your or my interpretation of that interview. So lets agree that we do not agree on what that interview means in terms of his current citizenship and rely on already provided sources. Therefore, unless if you bring another evidence that he has revoked his Iranian citizenship, we consider him an Iranian American. Persian Magi (talk) 02:29, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

BBC Persian does not even use the word "citizenship", how could it be a source about that? I'm still expecting a source on that. Grandmaster (talk) 05:45, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

You are correct, BBC does not use the world citizen but uses IRANI-TABAR, i.e. Iranian origin. However, the term could also indicate Iranian diaspora. Guess back to square on again, there is no debate on whether or not he and his father "were" Iranians. Therefoere, any claim that the status has changed since he "was" an Iranian should be sourced or otherwise we stay with status quo. Persian Magi (talk) 11:22, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

His father was Ragim Aleskerzade. I'm not sure whether he is a full-blooded Azerbaijani, but if so, the fact he was born in Ardebil doesn't make him Iranian automatically. According to this Ragim left Baku in 1930s to settle in Iran. If Ragim hails from Ardebil, we need an appropriate citation. --Brand спойт 09:27, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Dear Branmeister, forums are not considered to be reliable sources in Wikipedia. Persian Magi (talk) 09:37, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Move to Lotfi A. Zadeh

The name he uses for his papers and books is Lotfi A. Zadeh, and he is best known with this name and this should be the title of this page. Alefbe (talk) 21:45, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Consensus was to lose the middle name. A better case was made to use the middle initial rather then dropping it. If anyone feels strongly about dropping the middle initial, fell free to propose that move. But I think the move here should work. Vegaswikian (talk) 19:54, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

---

Lotfi Asker Zadeh → Lotfi A. Zadeh — As per the suggestion made about a year ago, this is the name he publishes under, and the name he is best known by. Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:26, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

• Comment Why not just Lofti Zadeh? Disambiguation is unnecessary in this case. Skinsmoke (talk) 18:17, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Either would be fine with me, just not the full middle name. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:02, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Again Racism

I wonder why some try to remove the part with his nationality and ethnicity and especially trying to say that he is not an Azeri but persian. Unfortunately this happens in many articles in wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.158.194.152 (talk) 18:12, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

But the proofs say it is Vise Versa. So go to Azeri wiki to see it. For more information you can read Campaign on granting Nizami the status of the national poet of Azerbaijan to find out which side is racist. And try to do not troll talkpages and bring excuses. It can considered as "escaping to the front" and "defending racism by using it against itself". The Stray Dog Talk Page 15:07, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

Nationality and Ethnicity in infobox

Because it is a continued bone of contention, I have removed these entries entirely from the infobox. Please do not add nationality or ethnicity information to the infobox without a supporting citation from a reliable source. That includes adding "United States" to nationality -- even though I assume he has Americna citizenship, I don't know that for certain, and there is no source cited one way or the other. The information in the article itself seems admirably straightforward in its description of his background, but to add any ethnicity, we ought to have something that says what Zadeh himself considers it to be. Beyond My Ken (talk) 10:16, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

BMK, before you revert anything, please read the changes carefully and note the sources cited. I am also for making the article as easy and noncontroversial as possible, and did not add anything new on citizenship or anything else. For all intents and purposes. Prof. Zadeh is an American scientist and lived in USA more than in both Azerbaijan and Iran combined (about 22 years total in both, vs. almost 70 years in USA). --Saygi1 (talk) 00:19, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

The sources you provided do not support the contention you have made, or are used in a way that goes against WP:WEIGHT. This is not a consensus matter, article text must accurately reflect what a source says, regarding of a (hypothetical) consensus which says otherwise. Also, this article is a WP:BLP, and the rules about sourcing are much stricter.

I draw your attention to this discussion I have initiated on WP:ECCN. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:04, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

BMK, could you be more specific about what "contentions" are "not supported" by the reliable sources I cited? I don't like going in circles, and am tired of this "let's exclude all sources/edits from you, as I own this article and only I and my friends can make changes there" attitude. --Saygi1 (talk) 21:22, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

I have been very specific in the discussion on ECCN. As for your other remarks, which could be considered to be uncivil since they are not supported by evidence, you are making assumptions which are not true. I am not "friends" with other contributors to this article, I don't know most of them at all, and the last time I recall interacting with User:John we strongly disagreed with each other. I also don't remove edits by you because they are by you: let me point you to this, in which I realized that another editor has accidentally removed a good contribution you made to the article, so I restored it. On the other hand, anyone who makes unsupported contributions to the article which distort or misstate facts about the subject will have those edits removed, that's the entire point of having watchlists, and that's the reason we have WP:BLPREMOVE. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:25, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, but you have not been specific at all. Could you clearly and concretely state 1) which of the sources I cited are not reliable or verifiable - and not just state, but cast a reasonable shadow of doubt; 2) show which terminology and words that I've used might be incorrect, factually or otherwise, and 3) which Wikipedia rules have I "violated" - not just re-cite WP:WEIGHT or others, but actually show, how did I supposedly "violate" any of it? The problem is that you cannot show any of that, whilst I've shown very clearly that it is in fact you, Beyond My Ken, who is violating multiple Wikipedia rules, all because you assumed bad faith from the outset, refused to compromise and reach consensus, engaged in constant reverts, asked your friends to help you out in doing that, engaged in original research, violated WP:WEIGHT, went contrary to WP:BLPREMOVE, suppressed reliable and verifiable sources about a living person - with that very living person tell you and everyone, directly, what he feels and thinks about himself, whilst being in his own office or in his own university's hall. --Saygi1 (talk) 22:23, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

In the comment at this page [7], Beyond My Ken very clearly and vividly displays his poor judgement at the very least, and at worst, bias and bad faith, doing not just a very selective short quoting, but suppressing some key words (indeed, sentences!) from Prof. Lotfi Asker Zadeh's speech. Please compare his transcript to this transcript I've prepared starting from minute 1:41 of this video [8]: "But I must say that what influenced me more than perhaps anything else, were the 10 years, the first 10 years of my life in Baku. I was there at the time when there was very strong ideological influence everywhere. But one thing which had an impact on me was the fact that in school, what we were taught, was not material things, not trying to make money, not buy XYZ, but have some dedication to society, to culture, to science." As you can see, watch and hear, Prof. Zadeh's clearly states that his years in Azerbaijan were most important to him in his life as both a human being and a scientist. And it's a violation of WP:WEIGHT and a host of other rules to suppress that kind of valuable and important information from his biography. --Saygi1 (talk) 22:54, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

It would be a lot better if you didn't go around posting the exact same post in three places. A thread has been opened on ECCN, which I linked above, and will link again here, in which I've responded to you. Also, there's no reason to bold large portions of your messages, you don't become more correct because your typeface is darker. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:12, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

If my "offense" is bolding text, then your offense is canvassing, engaging in original research, engaging in a revert war, removing verifiable and reliable sourced content, giving undue weight to sources you like and suppressing anything you don't like, treating a biography of a living person as your personal research paper, threatening me with admin action, and editing in bad faith. --Saygi1 (talk) 23:23, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Please support your charge of "canvassing" with diffs. Thanks. Your other charges are patently ridiculous on the face. Either you are being disingenuous, or you do not understand these polices. Please stop. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:27, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Also, I think I have contributed to the unnecessary dispersion of this discussion in the way that I have responded to your comments. From here on in, I will respond on the ECCN thread only to issues concerning the content dispute between us, but will not respond in any way to behaviorial complaints. On the other hand, on WP:ANI I will only respond to issues of behavior. Cross-references between discussions should be sufficient. And on the third hand, there really is not much point in continuing the conversation at all, since you have not brought in any new evidence, continue to make the same content points repeatedly, and have escalted to edit warring and unwarranted behavioral charges. So... I'm going to make dinner for my family, and attempt to lay out of this discussion until something substantive is offered. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:33, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

About potential canvassing - I've responded to you here [9]. About your other points - I've kindly and very clearly asked you to clearly show me what rules am I supposedly violating? Because I've clearly described that you are violating multiple rules and provided diffs to show how you removed verifiable and reliable sourced content from the article. --Saygi1 (talk) 23:35, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

There is no need to mention his mother's religion

There is no need to mention his mother's religion. Moreover his father was Muslim. So, at first there is not any citable reference about the religion of Lotfi Zadeh! Second, his religion is not related to his father or mother, and if relate, why mother? and why not father?

I believe, there is no need to mention his religion.

Unfortunately according to this mistake information, we can see a classification of Jewish scientists Jewish scientists with name of Lotfi Zadeh!?
Also the reference 4 is not good endorsement and it is only a website that it may publish mistake facts.

see

Get a source. Beyond My Ken (talk) 13:35, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Which source? Source for a mistake information?! I wrote his mother is Jewish but its reference is not citable. Also there is not any source that say he is Jewish but it has been extracted in another page of wiki according to this page! see — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.27.200.230 (talk) 14:39, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

The source is credible. Beyond My Ken (talk) 14:48, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Good closeup photo of Lotfi

What happened to the good photo that was on this page of Lotfi Zadeh? It's ok to add photos related to prizes etc, but why to get rid of a very good closeup photos of him and replace it with a fuzzy photo with two other people. It doesn't even show the prize. Please can you put the original photo back. Add yours if you wish - to show a contemporary photo at the time of the Barcelona Award. But please don't delete good photos. ThanksGizgalasi (talk) 02:11, 1 September 2013 (UTC)Gizgalasi

The photo was deleted because it was copyrighted and we didn't have permission to use it. It is not available to be restored to the article. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:08, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

OK, I understand. Shouldn't be so hard to get a good closeup of him. He is 93 years old now. We should ask him. I'm sure he would oblige. I can write and request. Gizgalasi (talk) 03:18, 1 September 2013 (UTC)Gizgalasi

I tried, and he was agreeable to our using a black and white self-portrait, but then backed away when I described our licensing requirements, which I don't think he entirely understood. It's probably worth another try, but please do make sure he understands that CC-BY-SA and GFDL mean that he retains the copyright to the photo, but he is licensing us (and whoever picks it up from us) to use it under specific terms. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:24, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Let me try. Help me understand what CC-BY-SA and GFDL mean. You're right. He likes black and white photos. Actually he has a private collection of famous people that he himself has photographed --in black and white - including Nixon. Gizgalasi (talk) 03:32, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

The terms of the CC-BY-SA license are:

(The full text of the license is [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:CC-BY-SA here)

Regarding GFDL, I think that it is no longer relevant, so it's probably best not to confuse matters with it. A photo can be uploaded to Commons (which is where it should go) under CC-BY-SA alone. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:58, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

ThanksGizgalasi (talk) 04:22, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

I received the photo from Lotfi Zadeh. It's the black and white portrait that he likes so much. He understands now about WIKI. He has the copyright and he says: "Anybody is free to use my photo" - correspondence October 21, 2013. Am traveling now but will try to organize to get it up in a few days.Gizgalasi (talk) 05:02, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

That is excellent news! First thing you need to do is to get his permission to OTRS. Then, if you need help uploading it, I can do so. (I have the same image from my discussion with him.) Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:15, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, what is OTRS? He told me the copyright is his and that anybody can use it. I told him it was for WIKIPEDIA. He was very cooperative and happy about it. It would help me so much if you could put it up. Yes it is the photo that was up there before. Gizgalasi (talk) 05:48, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Since Zadeh owns the copyright to the picture, Wikipedia will require him to confirm that he has given his persmission for it to be used on Wikipedia and uploaded under the CC-BY-SA license. In order to do that, you will need to put Zadeh in touch WP:OTRS, where his permission will be registered. This is standard procedure for copyrighted images which are being used by permission, and not being used under "Fair Use" copyright rules or our WP:NFCC policy (which doesn't apply to Zadeh because he is a living person).

So, the procedure here is to get Zadeh in touch with OTRS (or, if you have an e-mail from Zadeh, it may be enough to forward the e-mail to OTRS with Zadeh's e-mail address so they can verify it with him). Then once OTRS has a case number, the image can be uploaded. Beyond My Ken (talk) 08:30, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Go to this link for the standard consent form. The type of license is CC-BY-SA. I know this all may appear to be a pain-in-the-neck, but its purpose is to protect Wikipedia from copyright problems. Beyond My Ken (talk) 08:43, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Including Persian transliteration

Ok folks, let's have some discussion. Adding the Persian transliteration looks pretty uncontroversial, and we now have a source for it. What's the problem? Lesser Cartographies (talk) 17:51, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

He was born in Azerbaijan and now lives in the USA, that is why we use American English IPA and Azerbaijani language. Initially, Azeri version of his name was added as “birth name”, because later he westernized it, but some user moved word “born”. So, Persian name is irrelevant. The fact that he lived in Iran for a while doesn`t mean anything. If he lived, for example for 5 years in France, you would add French version of his name? That’s funny. To make this article more informative his birth name was added. Check, for example, article about Aivazovsky. He changed his Last Name to more russified version, but we still mention his initially Armenian birth name + despite he lived a lot in Western Europe and Ottoman Empire, we still do not add Ottoman Turkish version of his name.
P.S.It seems that this user violated 3RR. He also made some very controversial edits in Wikipedia. For example, he deleted Turkish name for Baklava and added Persian, despite there is no claims that this dish is Persian.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Sven Siegel (talk • contribs) 18:42, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Sven Siegel, if the Persian transliteration is used to a significant degree in reliable sources, that would pretty much settle the issue, right? (As to the edit warring, I assume that has now stopped and nothing more need be said.) Lesser Cartographies (talk) 19:46, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Lesser Cartographies, according to your logic, it would be better to add Russian transliteration, because there is much more sources that uses this transliteration. (I really think, that here should be Azeri and Russian transliteration, but I don`t want to start new battles)
P.S.This wasn`t a "real" Edit War. I think 5.221.222.174 is just somekind of Internet Troll, because he started to delete Turkish transliteration from other articles too. He found some sensative issues and started... You know how it happens, I guess. However, thank you for your attention!

Categories/translation in the lede

Hi. Could someone tell me why all these "Azerbaijani scientists/Azerbaijani X" categories are added here, when so far no source has been presented that attests that he supposedly held Soviet Azerbaijani citizenship? Both of his parents were simply Iranian citizens living in the Azerbaijan SSR for some time, and this is sourced. Just the fact that he (Lotfi A. Zadeh) was born there in the SU and lived there for a few years doesn't mean that he actually held its citizenship. Such people are what we usually call expats, and unless someone can prove that he held Soviet citizenship, these categories are all unfortunately erroneous. Bests - LouisAragon (talk) 18:29, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

@LouisAragon: Hello, Louis! That's what I'm saying below. Azerbaijanization of an Iranian scientist, just because he was born in Baku?? Ok, But that baku wasn't Azerbaijan Republic, that was Soviet Union and his parents were reporters there. The situation is like Babak Khoramdin, Nizami Ganjavi, Median Empire, Zoroaster and plenty of other articles which Azarbaijanized in Azerbaijani or possibly English wiki. We must investigate it in Meta-Wiki by reviewing all articles related to Iran. Meanwhile the source which mentioned the Azeri name is citing an Azerbaijan Republic's government's site, it seems it couldn't be neutral. Blessings! The Stray Dog Talk Page 14:27, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

Investigation about the name

Lotfi Aliaskar Zade is not an Azerbaijani, and the place of birth is not nationality. even Azerbaijan Republic didn't exist at that time. So Iranian-Azeris do not use Latin script of Azerbaijan republic as their writing system, but Persian and sometimes English. Also at that time his parents were for reporting and their job. his mother was a Russian and his father an Iranian (Iranian-Azeri). for Iranian Azeris we only add the Persian name, in common situation, because the spelling and meaning is Persian, Such as Rambod Javan and Ali Daei or Ali Javan, Jafar Panahi, Ali Khamenei, Googoosh and etc. their names are completely Persian but ethnicity is not. We must only add the Persian or a Persian spelling near by the ethnic spelling. about Iranian Azeris and all Iranian people we must add Persian too. for example Al Pacino and Leonardo DiCaprio are Italian-Americans. if we add the ethnic spelling, we add the national language (Am English) spelling too. but his name, in this case is like Ali Daei and Rambod Javan, and the situation is like that. his name is not Turkic at all, but completely Persian. the origin of "Zade" (son of..son of lotfi) which is a Persian word, not Turkic/Azeri comes from "Zayesh", a Persian word which means "birth". Persian name needs Persian spelling . Also it is not common to add only ethnic spelling without common Persian spelling for Iranians.

Also the word "Lotfi" is a combination of Arabic word and Persian suffix which make a Perso-Arabic word with a Persian meaning and spelling. the letter "i" which appears in the word Bahai makes a different meaning with Arabic word, a different spelling too. not Turkic and not Arabic spelling I mean.

Hereby, I TheStrayDog add an expert user on Iran Wikiproject @LouisAragon: and also an expert Iranian languages' linguist Mr. Hamid Hassani (@Hamid Hassani:) to discuss here and resolve this problem permanently. thank you. The Stray Dog Talk Page 23:02, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Actually, the "problem" was permanently resolved until you showed up to upset the apple cart. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:02, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

@Beyond My Ken: Hello dear User Beyond My Ken, I am so glad for having you here in this discussion. That's your opinion? OK I respect your comment. but I appreciate you If you let us hear other comments please. that will be nice of you dear fellow. I said Lotfi A Zade isn't an Azeri name and it is a Persian name. so I proved it with my evidence, but let other users come here to challenge my Idea. thanks. The Stray Dog Talk Page 20:12, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

You've "proved" nothing -- you've made some claims, that's all, and those claims seem to be animated not by a thirst for factuality, but by ethnic bias. If your suggestion to "hear other comments" means that I should shut up -- sorry, that ain't gonna happen. Other editors are perfectly free to comment here, my contributions to the discussion do nothing to stop them from doing so. (And, BTW, drop the condescension, please, it neither deters me nor reflects well on yourself.) Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:51, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

@Beyond My Ken: hello again, thank you for your contribution in this talk. this is a proof which says that he is an Iranian descent not Azerbaijani (Azer Repub). I said to you that EVEN AZERBAIJAN REPUBLIC DIDN'T EXIST AT THE TIME OF BIRTH OF ZADEH BUT SOVIET UNION. so his mother is a Russian so if when we are adding the spelling of his birthplace language, we must add Russian spelling too, mustn't we????? The national language of Iran is Persian and for the all Iranian Azerbaijanis we add the national language's spelling here in Wikipedia, which I brought examples too you. I said that DiCaprio's ethnicity is Italian but we don't add Italian spelling on the lead in his articles, only English, which is the national language of America. Even if his name is not of Persian language, but we know it is, we must add Persian spelling. thanks.The Stray Dog Talk Page 13:25, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

@Beyond My Ken: Also as a response to your charges against me, I must say I'm a member of Iran wiki project, and it's my duty to edit and discuss in this kinda topic. so Im not in that kinda position to be racist or in an Ethnic War. Im proving based on Lotfi A. Zadeh's words, but you don't wanna see. you think im in a ethnic war but you are so wrong . Im just in the Iran project so im an Iranian and it's a common obsession among Iranians when they see some foreigners are trying to steal Iranian cultural realities such we see like Campaign on granting Nizami the status of the national poet of Azerbaijan or Campaign on showing Babak Khoramdin as a National hero of Azerbaijan republic (here) or etc. I'm here to defend facts not my race. but you think it is race. just turn your head to Azerbaijani Wikipedia and you will see where is exactly a tedency of reciism which related to Pan-Turkism propaganda. look at this . Azeri wikipedians are trying to show Median people which were Indo-Iranian people as a Turkic tribe :))) . im not racist just turn your head fellow. be honest and wise. we are not on that kinda position to be racist, because we are victims of racist actions such as Pan-Turkism and pan-arabism and Iranophobia . we dont call on saying Persian sea for Arabian sea, or Sea of Iran for Sea of Oman. but there is a Racist tendency to say Arabian gulf instead of historical name Persian gulf (look at this: Persian Gulf naming dispute). So we are victims and victims have rights to defend themselves based on the facts. The Stray Dog Talk Page 14:02, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

References

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Leaving his death in the article without being confirmed by a reliable source is a BLP violation

An Iranian government source is not a WP:RS. Please remove the last edit by Dorglorg until a reliable source confirms his death, it is a clear violation of BLP if not confirmed. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:19, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Already done as far as I can tell. Please see below. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 00:22, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Thanks. My comment is below. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:32, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Health status: editing dispute 12 August 2017

I have protected this article for 2 days due to extendedconfirmed editors warring over reports of Zadeh's death. I haven't had time just yet to research the situation myself so I did not edit the article, but administrator Primefac has removed information about his supposed death. User Beyond My Ken has concerns over the reliability of the source(s?) reporting his death. Please discuss here. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 00:20, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

I'd like to know what makes these sources unreliable: http://www.ibna.ir/en/doc/naghli/250978/iranian-theorist-of-fuzzy-logic-dies http://www.ibna.ir/en/doc/naghli/250978/iranian-theorist-of-fuzzy-logic-dies Dorglorg (talk) 00:28, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

At this point, all the sources reporting Zadeh's death are Iranian, and are repeating an Iranian government-related source, they are not independent news sources, and can not be considered to be reliable sources. I've been questioned as to if I have some personal reason to not believe that he's dead, and the answer is "No." I have no personal connection to Zadeh, except for an admiration for his seminal work on fuzzy sets and fuzzy logic. If he's dead, then he's dead, and the article absolutely should report that -- and it's not completely unlikely to be true, since he is, after all 96 years old -- but only if the source reporting it is of the absolutely best reliability: a major US newspaper, or the Times of London, Reuters, the AP, or the BBC, one of the major American news outlets, even UC Berkeley, for instance. Some place trusted, not an Iranian government source. That's the only issue here, as far as I'm concerned. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:30, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

(You realize that both the links you posted are the same?) Note that the article does not give a date of death, or a cause of death, or really say anything except that he died in San Francisco. A real report would have at least the information that the cause of death was not available, or pending autopsy, or was not released by the family, or whatever. What you've got there is basically the Wikipedia article with "He died" slapped onto it. That's not the hallmark of a reliable news source. I keep checking Google News, The New York Times and the San Francisco Chronicle, and... nothing. Once a reliable news source confirms that he has died, I'll withdraw any objection I have to adding the information to the article. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:36, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Just updating: still no source not ultimately based on an Iranian source. Checked: Google News, SFGate, NY Times, Reuters. Beyond My Ken (talk) 14:11, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

I've also e-mailed Zadeh's address as listed on his UC Berkeley page, as well as those of his assistant and his researcher, asking for any information they might have. I don't think it would qualify as a reliable source, because any e-mail they send in return can't be verified, but it would help to clear up the question of whether he has indeed died or not. Beyond My Ken (talk) 15:05, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

I have also contacted Google asking them to remove the death date from their summary box until the death can be confirmed. Beyond My Ken (talk) 15:07, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

@Beyond My Ken: - Is this a RS for his death? I've seen the issues raised via ITN. Thanks. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 19:01, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

No, see below, I've answered there. PressTV is an Iranian news agency, and the only sources reporting his death at this time are either Iranian, or are carrying stories derived from the original Irananian story. They all take the Wikipedia article and slap "He's dead" on it and shove it out there. I'll believe it when I see a righteously reliable source report it. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:01, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Correct. I am not praising what they have done, but it was also they who revised their appraisal of the situation when more accurate information filtered through. Anyhow I am not implying that someone able to edit the article re-insert that he passed away and I will not be making that change myself once the protection ends. --Coldtrack (talk) 05:03, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Ethnicity of his father

Which one of the used references says his father was an Iranian Azerbaijani? Could you guys shows me that source? How could a Russian Jewish woman married a Muslim?! Did his mother convert to Islam? --188.158.107.90 (talk) 04:23, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Even in the strictest religious communities, a Muslim man is permitted to marry a Christian or Jewish woman. Azeris are hardly known as the strictest of Muslims anyway, so this is not strange. Anarcho-authoritarian (talk) 06:06, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Ok, but where is the source that says "an Iranian Azerbaijani father..."? I didn't find it in source #17 and #18 which used at the end of that sentence. --188.158.107.90 (talk) 06:30, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

To be clear: you purchased the article at note 17, not simply read the abstract, right? Beyond My Ken (talk) 14:16, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 13 August 2017

Zadeh died on August 12 in San Francisco, CA. BBCLCD (talk) 13:56, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Primefac (talk) 13:57, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

The German WP used the following ref: [10] As a former student of EECS at UC Berkeley I knew Prof. Zadeh. Therefore, I am interested to have a correct CV for him. BBCLCD (talk) 16:15, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

PressTV is not a reliable source. It is an Iranian source that is merely passing on the Iranian government-based press report. Still no independent reliable source. Beyond My Ken (talk) 16:58, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Sorry but that is pathetic. When did Press TV ever announce the death of a person who today is alive.... --Coldtrack (talk) 17:09, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

"Pathetic"? If he's actually dead, why has no other news source, except Iranian ones, picked up on the story? Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:30, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

"Tehran University withdraws report on death of researcher" . Beyond My Ken (talk) 15:27, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

I meant pathetic in the sense of Press TV not being reliable. Suddenly they become credible once announcing that the original report was made in error. I don't see much coverage on this individual outside of Iran anyhow. --Coldtrack (talk) 18:19, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Again, PressTV is not a reliable source (you should read WP:RS and see what the requirements are) because it simply repeats what someone else has reported without investigating it and confirming it themselves. They look like a news outlet, but it's only a centimeter deep. When they repeated the Tehran University report, they said Zadeh was dead, without any confirmation of the underlying fact. That makes them, and their reports, unreliable. When they reported that Tehran University has withdrawn the report, they presumably had a press release from them in hand, so it didn't really require additional confirmation. If you want to believe that PressTV is a reliable source, that's your privilege, as long as you don't attempt to use them as an RS on Wikipedia, 'cause they ain't. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:08, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

By that definition then no news network is a reliable source since all of them act as mouthpieces for one form of government or another. The fact is we know how BBC or ABC "investigations" can be manipulated and where it has mattered, one has yet to see them take radically opposing views from their masters. At the same time, I don't know what on earth would mean that a statement were incorrect or untrustworthy if its source happens to be the Iranian government except if parroting the usual western propaganda. Apart from that, the idea that one network/newspaper (e.g. The Independent) is reliable but something else isn't is pure conjecture. --Coldtrack (talk) 04:19, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

I note also that Press TV is the same as every other Iranian news network in its message and manner of operation and yet Farsi Wikipedia seems to have no issue in using those equivalents. Obviously Press TV being for an English speaking audience probably won't be used but all Farsi networks are. --Coldtrack (talk) 04:27, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Farsi Wikipedia's standards are their business, not ours. Our standards are our business, and by those standards, PressTV is not a reliable source. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:32, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Oh so it's your standard that denounces Press TV as unreliable. Now I've heard it all. You'd think that "reliable" would mean precisely what the definition is. Wikipedia operates the same everywhere and I have also edited Russian and Ukrainian. True, sources need to be reliable, but the idea that it is reliable for one language and not for another is frankly absurd and blatantly a tool to suppress information by the "project" that claims it is not reliable. So to you, "reliable source" specifically means what you like. --Coldtrack (talk) 04:46, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, this discussion is ridiculous. As I've said repeatedly, a reliable source is a source that fulfills the requirements of WP:RS. Bottom line, period, end all, 30. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:48, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Well obviously yes, you have indeed introduced ridicule by stating that a source can be reliable for one language's project but not another's. The question here is whether reliability is down to principle or personal opinion. Naturally if there is some principle behind it then it couldn't be the case that it is used on other languages' Wikipedia. But of course if it is down to your personal opinion then you cannot expect every editor to agree with your point of view. Now unless someone shows me conclusive evidence that Press TV has reported something false (and I don't mean whimpering from mainstream sources that it is Iranian government funded) then I am inclined to accept that Press TV is 100% reliable, and have no objections to its usage to support assertions across the project. Bottom line, period. --Coldtrack (talk) 18:13, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

You clearly do not understand that each language Wikipedia is a separate entity, and each community sets its own rules and standards. The Wikimedia Foundation (WMF) sets certain basic policies, but otherwise allows every project to devise their own standards. So, yes, it is very much the case that what can be considered to be a reliable source for Farsi Wikipedia may not be considered to be one for English Wikipedia, or French Wikipedia, or German Wikipedia. That's the way it works. If you don't like that, you can either convince the WMF to remove from each Wikipedia's purview the setting of editing standards and have them all set by Foundation decree, or you can run for King of Wikipedia and set them all yourself. If you don't believe that is the way things work, then you're just plain out of luck, because that is, in fact, the way they work, and anyone who's been around enough and has been paying attention will tell you so. In any case, this discussion is pretty much over isn't it? Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:08, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

It was over when you stated in fewer words that reliability is less to do with conclusive principle and more to do with personal opinion, albeit a collective opinion. And somehow we find ourselves accepting a Press TV source that confirms that this subject is a living person. The so-called "standards" on what qualifies as reliable are frankly speaking one big joke - we can use western mainstream media but any alternative media including all from nations deemed to be enemies cannot be used. It seems this is a big farce to uphold a stealth bias. I stand by my position that if Press TV substantiates an assertion I make, I shall go ahead and use it. I'll throw the ball in the opponent's court and then see if he has any "concrete proof" that the statement is unreliable. Right now I see press TV announcing this person as living and if someone believes Press TV is unreliable, they can go and find a mainstream source to say he is dead. --Coldtrack (talk) 04:17, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Hmmm. Well, as my teenage son says: "Yeah, whatever, dude." Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:29, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Grow up. --Coldtrack (talk) 04:32, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 13 August 2017

In the categories, replace "2017 deaths" with "Living people" until a reliable source can be found. This is most likely collateral damage from the protection Anarcho-authoritarian (talk) 14:58, 13 August 2017 (UTC) Anarcho-authoritarian (talk) 14:58, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Done Primefac (talk) 15:02, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 13 August 2017

Lotfi A. Zadeh died on August 12, 2017. Disha shur (talk) 19:36, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

References

Again, PressTV is not a reliable source, it's one of the Iranian news agencies repeating a story from an Iranian government-related source. Confirmation of a person;s death requires a source which is exemplary. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:58, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. As stated above, PressTV is not a reliable source for this report. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 21:51, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 14 August 2017

Per WP:EGG, can the link to "the Shah" be changed to "Reza Shah". Shah was a title, and we would not say the American leader was "the President". In addition, the word "Shah" in and of itself has become associated in the English language with the last emperor, Mohammad Reza Pahlavi. Anarcho-authoritarian (talk) 14:35, 14 August 2017 (UTC) Anarcho-authoritarian (talk) 14:35, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Done Primefac (talk) 15:04, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

"Tehran University withdraws report on death of researcher"

[11]. This is why PressTV is not a reliable source, They sinoply repeated the Tehran University report without checking it for themselves, as did all the other Iranian and Azerbaijaini outlets and sites. This is why we require that a reliable source verify a death before we report it. It's still possible that Zadeh may have died, but we wait for confirmation from a trusted source. Beyond My Ken (talk) 15:30, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

It's not a reliable source, because it cannot be publicly verified, but I hope this will help: I have just received a response to my e-mail query from Zadeh's research assistant listed on his UC Berkeley page, Lesley Goldstein. She writes:

Professor Zadeh is alive and well.

I thanked her for responding. Beyond My Ken (talk) 15:50, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Thank you, Beyond My Ken, for your efforts in ensuring that our article remained accurate and WP:BLP compliant throughout all this. We had two nominations of Lofti Zadeh at Recent Deaths; fortunately they were both closed quickly.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 14:16, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Thanks. Wikipedia is a big place, and I wasn't even aware of Recent Deaths - but then I tend to stay away from ITN and other Main Page sections. Beyond My Ken (talk) 14:31, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 14 August 2017

I was also wondering about the truth content of the news from the following sources: http://en.azvision.az/news/70497/azerbaijani-scientist,-father-of-fuzzy-logic-lotfi-zadeh-passes-away-.html http://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2017/08/12/531553/iran-lofti-zadeh-fuzzy-logic Zimboras (talk) 20:21, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 21:52, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Both of those are ultimately passed through intermediary reports on the University of Tehran report, which has now been retracted. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:59, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 7 September 2017

Thanks for the protection.

The last edit before protection, by 5.197.118.181, changed the wording of a direct quote, from "Russia" to "Soviet Union". This needs to ne changed back. Beyond My Ken (talk) 12:04, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Done Primefac (talk) 12:06, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

New report of death

Oh, come on. His official Facebook page, which firmly denied his death in August, has already announced plans for burial and the news were reported on it 8 hours ago! If no Western newspaper/agency is interested in it does not mean he's alive; this time it is clear he is really dead. --Folengo (talk) 14:17, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Ah, how fuzzy anyway!--Folengo (talk) 14:32, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Fuzzy indeed.

Facebook is not a reliable source. The only news reports I can find are from Azerbaijan or based on those reports. Given the erroneous reports last month -- from Iranian sources repeated by the same Azerbaijani outlets that are now reporting his death, again -- there's no reason to be hasty, and every reason to wait for an official release or a reliable press report. After all, we're WP:NOTNEWS, we're an encyclopedia, and we're not trying to get a scoop. It's more important for us to get it right than it is for us to get it fast. Beyond My Ken (talk) 14:37, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. I only wonder if some reliable Western source will pick it, because it appears it's really true. Unfortunately scientist appear to get few obits (see Nicolaas Bloembergen or Hans Georg Dehmelt) and I hope we won't have to wait weeks for a confirmation.--Folengo (talk) 14:45, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Yes, I hope they do as well. I've been monitoring UC Berkeley's News page, but I've noticed that it often takes them weeks to post faculty deaths. Beyond My Ken (talk) 15:30, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

If I understood the language, I would take a look at local newsoutlets. Funeral arrangements - while not usable as GNG - are usually a good indication of someones death. Agathoclea (talk) 15:34, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the Azerbaijan news outlets have not been terribly reliable (or the Iranian ones). I was actually just heading to the Facebook page to check the funeral arrangements and then see if that leads to anything. Beyond My Ken (talk) 15:39, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

That would lead to an APA report speaking of the body being moved as told by Professor of Azerbaijan Technical University Shahnaz Shahbazova. So at least this would be original reporting and not copied from somewhere else. Agathoclea (talk) 15:48, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Is this enough?--Folengo (talk) 16:28, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

El Pais obituary and ABC.es obituary. I think that's definitely enough.--Folengo (talk) 16:36, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Seems reasonable. Protection removed. Primefac (talk) 16:45, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Can someone confirm if he died and update this page? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.5.79.66 (talk) 11:29, 7 September 2017‎ (UTC)

Please see the discussion just above this. We're waiting for confirmation. Beyond My Ken (talk) 15:31, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

El Pais obituary and ABC.es obituary. I think that's definitely enough.--Folengo (talk) 16:40, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

I'm not buying it. If he died in the U.S., why are there no English-language sources? He is a very well known person. I want to see something from the New York Times, BBC, or UC Berkeley. A news search still turns up nothing adequate in quality, and we've seen false rumors before. —BarrelProof (talk) 17:29, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Here is an English-language source, which refers to the Azerbaijani Consulate's Facebook post as its source for the report. I'm unsure of the reliability of this source (not saying it's not reliable, I just don't know). Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 17:36, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Apologies for jumping the gun on this one, I've re-added protection again until a firm consensus about the reliability of all these sources can be determined. Primefac (talk) 17:40, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

That's not a U.S. source. He allegedly died in Berkeley. Why do we see nothing in well-recognized U.S. reliable sources? Why do we have nothing from UC Berkeley? He is very well known. We have seen false reports before. Maybe it's true, but I think we should be very conservative on this. —BarrelProof (talk) 17:42, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

I agree, I'm just pointing out what I found, and you didn't specify U.S. source, just English. If I find anything more definitive I'll post it here. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 17:45, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Here is another report, referring to the Facebook post but also apparently confirmed by a professor at Azerbaijani Technical University. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 17:48, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

This is the Facebook post. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 17:50, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

I actually came back to edit my comment to change "English-language" to "U.S. based", but I was too slow – there was already a reply. Just as a reminder, we're talking about someone who has lived in the U.S. since 1943 and has been at UC Berkeley since 1959 and allegedly died in Berkeley. I want to see something in a very well respected very reliable U.S.-based source. UC Berkeley or IEEE if not a very high quality newspaper or magazine. Facebook is crap. —BarrelProof (talk) 17:51, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Will it help if I say "I agree" a bunch more times? ;) Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 17:55, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, I got a little worked up. —BarrelProof (talk) 17:58, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

El País is the biggest newspaper in Spain. Why would they lie about it or write about it without knowing it's really happened? You are being too conservative now, if his Facebook page has not been hacked (and it has not been hacked) we only needed some respected newspaper to write a decent obit. El Pais wrote it. It's respectable as Guardian or BBC, I don't see the point of waiting for an US based obit. Zadeh is dead. That's what matters.--79.24.120.126 (talk) 18:07, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

This news has been circulating for over 14 hours in over a dozen outlets and hasn't been disputed by anyone. His Facebook page is saying it's true, even the president of his country has mentioned it. This is obviously true, now add his death. Dorglorg (talk) 19:00, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

The president of the country that Prof. Zadeh has lived in for the last 74 years is Donald Trump. As far as I know, President Trump hasn't said anything about Zadeh's death, and neither has the president of the university where Zadeh has been a professor for 58 years. —BarrelProof (talk) 19:23, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

It's clear he is dead. Let's put the date on, then we will remove it if reports are withdrawn, which won't happen. There's his official Facebook page, every news site of Azerbaijan, El Pais (!) and ABC and you still don't buy it. Oh, come on, it is not so strange to die at 96!--Folengo (talk) 19:09, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

That's ABC Spain, not ABC U.S. How is it that people in Spain seem to know something that people where Zadeh has lived for the last 74 years do not know? Facebook is crap. There have been clearly false reports of his death before. —BarrelProof (talk) 19:26, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Lotfi Zadeh's body to be brought to Baku. "Lotfi Zadeh's body will be brought to Azerbaijan in 10 days. I was with Lotfi Zadeh until the very end. His son Norman was not with his father at the time of his death.

“Lotfi Zadeh’s body was placed in the morgue today at 11:00 am California time. The necessary procedure for the delivery of his body to Azerbaijan will take 7-19 days,” said Shahbazova. According to her, Lotfi Zadeh’s body is expected to be brought to Azerbaijan on September 16-17.

Oddly specific details. Also when has whether or not the country he lived in publishes anything about it been the deciding factor if the news is true or not? The first news of Michael Cimino's Death were from French outlets and he died in LA. It's nonsensical to downplay family friends words in reliable sources just because it's not a US source. Rusted AutoParts 19:30, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Caspian News reporting it too. --79.24.120.126 (talk) 19:34, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

• I think it is time to lift the protection. Agathoclea (talk) 19:53, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

• @Primefac: It's not a reliable source per se, but I reached out to Zadeh's research assistant -- who was the one who told me last time that Dr. Zadeh was still alive -- and she confirms that he died yesterday morning (September 6, 2017) at 7:30am, I assume PDT. I agree that the protection should be lifted, the date of death put into the article, and when a reliable source (Reuters, BBC, CNN, SF Chronicle, NY Times, LA Times, UC Berkeley, WaPo, etc.) confirms it, add that source to the article as a reference. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:06, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Please see my comment above. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:07, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Oh, actually it's only semi-d, so if someone hasn't already done so, I'll put it in. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:08, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Not done: According to the page's protection level you should be able to edit the page yourself. If you seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. Primefac (talk) 20:11, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

OK, lift the protection and make it editable by verified users. This must come to an end. --Folengo (talk) 20:15, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Perfect. By the way, here's El Periodico obituary--Folengo (talk) 20:17, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Here is UC Berkeley reporting his passing away: [12] --denny vrandečić (talk) 20:38, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, that's the official confirmation that we needed. I've added it to the article as a ref. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:53, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

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adding Iranian nationality

Owing to Dr. Zadeh's unfortunate death, as he never mentioned any denouncement over his Iranian citizenship or nationality, I added his nationality as "Iranian-American" based on Iranian law of citizenship (here). Per many discussions (above) in this talk-page, there was found no evidence that he denounced his Iranian passport. Based on Iranian law who his father and/or mother is Iranian is automatically and unconditionally Iranian either. He was brought up in Iran and educated at Iranian University of Tehran. Thereafter he left Iran in Pahlavi era (Imperial Iran) for America. Also as we know the passport law of Imperial Gov. of Iran never let citizens leave the country without Iranian passport. Please do not change this edit unless you bring any kind of reference against he was not Iranian. Thanks. The Stray Dog Talk Page 23:05, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

You need to read the archives, in which this subject is extensively discussed. You also need to read the article itself, which, as the hidden note says, deals with the question of his natiopnality in Zadeh's own words. Please do not edit against consensus. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:27, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

@Beyond My Ken: Salute! My dear fellow. Thanks for your contributions here. Please Don't tell me do what I did before and don't take me wrong. In this this discussion, that you constantly mentioned to me about it (as if I am not aware of it at all!!!) I have been involved myself too. Please you yourself, re-read the discussion above. You will see my appearance and justifications. I read both Persian and English editions for several times. I undid your edit. My rationale is clear. Sources and laws shows that he is an Iranian-American and you please read Iranian-Americans article to find out its complicated legal meaning. In my own thought, some of those discussions are meaning-less somehow because some Azerbaijani users tried to make push Zadeh an Azerbajani scientist. But this an encyclopedia and not a propaganda machine of pan-Turkist Azerbaijani government which even wants to make other Iranian stuff Turkic/Azerbaijani (e.g. look at Campaign on granting Nizami the status of the national poet of Azerbaijan). Don't be confused please. This situation is a little bit confusing. I hope you may understand my words. Best Regards!. The Stray Dog Talk Page 21:29, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Please read the talk page archives. The aritlce, before you changed (and which I reverted back it) reflects consensus on this talk page. Please read the archives and do not change again unless you get a new consensus to do so. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:21, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

@Beyond My Ken: Roger that! In this particular case, you are simply right. I'll try it in another way. If possible a new consensus will be needed to do that edit, as you said above. Happy editing! The Stray Dog Talk Page 20:08, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

Zadeh's birth name

According to Persian and Azeri data (including epitaph on his tombstone), his first name was Lotfali. Therefore "Lotfali Aliasker Zadeh" seems to be rational as his birth name. محمد إسلامي 0711 (talk) 21:01, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

"Seems to be rational" won't cut it on Wikipedia, nor will anecdotal evidence. We need a citation from a reliable source. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:43, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

Nationality

He's from Azerbaijan not İran 2A00:F41:1C2F:F472:491A:66BF:2D2B:6B34 (talk) 16:01, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

This has already been extensively discussed (see above); furthermore, the article itself includes Zadeh's own thoughts on the subject of his nationality. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 16:16, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 November 2021

Not Iranian-American, Azerbaijani-American. He was an Azerbaijani scientist as is obvious from the place of birth: Baku - the capital of Azerbaijan. 5.197.247.21 (talk) 16:15, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

 Not done This has already been extensively discussed (see above); furthermore, the article itself includes Zadeh's own thoughts on the subject of his nationality. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 16:16, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

The Republic of Baku is Iran! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:100E:BE1C:1D30:819E:A72D:DDE8:CF3B (talk) 04:20, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

WWII Invasion of Iran

The US was not involved in the invasion, which took place in the late summer 1941 and lasted into the fall. The US was a non-participant until Dec. 1941. I trust I don't need a cite for that? (As for the invasion, it has a page.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:2C6:4300:6EE0:C57B:CDED:A88C:51DB (talk) 03:45, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

unacceptable Azerbaijani vandalism

Lotfi A. Zadeh was half Iranian and half Jewish, but certainly not from the so-called "Republic of Azerbaijan." This is unacceptable rewriting of history. Azerbaijan is Iran!