Talk:List of superhero television series

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Is there any reason that The Six Million Dollar Man and The Bionic Woman aren't on this page?

Also, although I never watched it for more than a minute - but shouldn't Power Rangers be on here too?

Agent Carter should come off as there are no main characters with superpowers, nor do the characters later become superheroes (as with Bruce and Selina on the show Gotham) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Glenfarrelly (talk • contribs) 02:27, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

I believe that this list is incomplete, so feel free to add those shows. With regards to Carter, the criteria for inclusion cannot be whether the main characters have superpowers or not, otherwise we shouldn't include neither Carter nor Arrow, Gotham etc. As I see it, Agent Carter is a spin-off of a superhero movie, sharing continuity with a superhero universe, with villains that have gained superpowers such as Whitney Frost. --Tanonero (msg) 10:02, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

I'm sorry to say I couldn't find indie reliable sources for Harsh Realm. Good luck to anyone else.Sparkles32 (talk) 22:48, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

Inclusion criteria

I'm a bit confused here, how are the Lone Rander, Zorro and Wynonna Earp superheros? Near as I can tell, these are people who are just particularly skilled with their weapons of choice. By this measure, James Bond is a superhero, as are the Ghostbusters.

First off, there are many varieties of superheroes. Not all of them are the same. The Lone Ranger and Zorro fall into the same category as Batman and The Green Hornet. They are costumed vigilantes who use their skills to fight evil- and they don't necesssarily need superpowers in that category. Wynonna Earp falls into the same category as Blade and Constantine- the supernatural superhero. So in some ways, James Bond and Ghostbusters could count as superheroes- it depends on how you look at it.Sparkles32 (talk) 22:57, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

How is Tarzan a superhero? How is Inspector Gadget not?

Tarzan uses his animalistic skills and ability to communicate with animals to thwart evildoers. Inspector Gadget is definitely a superhero. I believe he's not on the list because he doesn't have any live-action TV series- just cartoons. And, unfortunately, nobody's found the time to put a table for animated superheroes yet.Sparkles32 (talk) 23:04, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

Are magical powers super powers? How are the powers of Isis superpowers while those of Jeanie, Bewitched and wizards not?

I believe they can be. Isis stops disasters and rescues people from danger. Shows like Bewitched, etc. are really about civilians who struggle to hide their powers- they don't fight crime or save people. But, I suppose they could count as superheroes, but that depends on your point of view. For example iZombie is about a zombie girl who struggles to maintain her humanity while using her new–found gifts to solve murders and fight crime.Sparkles32 (talk) 23:13, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

Do technologies make a superhero? Apparently they do for The Bionic Woman and The Six Million Dollar Man, but not for Knight Rider. and CSI.

How about alien powers? Ultraman, an alien, is a superhero but countless other aliens are not.

My concern here is that we do not have "unambiguous, objective, and supported by reliable sources". I'm not really sure we can. - SummerPhD^v2.0 02:11, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

@SummerPhDv2.0: I hear you, it is rather difficult to set the boundaries of the superhero genre. Can this source - which includes almost 400 titles including animations - be considered reliable (not sure about unambiguous)? --Tanonero (msg) 10:26, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

Unfortunately, no. With very few exceptions, most content on IMDb (outside of some film credits) is user generated, falling under WP:SPS. - SummerPhD^v2.0 00:43, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

@Sparkles32: Hello. Thanks for participating in this discussion. For future reference, it's better not to insert your responses to another editor within the other editor's post, as you've done above. That makes it a lot harder to tell who wrote what. It's much better to put all your points in a single post. That way other editors will see what the first person said, followed by their signature, and then what you said, followed by your signature. Thanks. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 01:29, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

Thanks! Sorry for any inconvenience! I'm new here. Anyway...As for aliens, not all aliens are superheroes and not all superheroes are aliens. Ultraman falls into the category of superheroes such as Superman, Martian Manhunter and Power Rangers. What makes Ultraman a superhero is the fact that Ultraman defends the planet from giant monsters. As for technologies, it worked for Iron Man, so in some levels they do count. Some people may agree that Knight Rider is a superhero show, while others may not. Which television shows are considered superheroic or not depends on an individual's personal POV and/or opinion. Some may see some shows as superheroic and some may not. People could debate about this subject for ages. The list isn't mine, so it's all hit or miss. I suggest trying to keep an open mind. There was a great website Superheroes Lives, that was a major source for superhero cinema- live movies, live tv shows, cartoons, etc. Unfortunately, for reasons unknown, it was shut down. But fans would've been surprised at what was listed there. But perhaps this web page might be of some help– http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/l/livetv.htm Sparkles32 (talk) 01:44, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

You've basically reiterated the central problem here: whether or not to include a show is a matter of opinion. For a "List of..." article to survive on Wikipedia, we need objective sourced criteria. List of people from New York City includes all bluelinked individuals who reliable sources indicate have lived in NYC. List of mayors of London, Ontario includes all mayors of London, Ontario. We cannot have List of television series that someone on Wikipedia thinks are about superheroes. - SummerPhD^v2.0 02:56, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

From Superhero: In modern popular fiction, a superhero ... is a type of costumed heroic character who possesses supernatural or superhuman powers and who is dedicated to fighting crime, protecting the public, and usually battling supervillains. By most definitions, characters do not require actual supernatural or superhuman powers or phenomena to be deemed superheroes.(3 citations)

While Zorro and Batman are similar, Zorro (as far as I know) has always been depicted as skilled but very, very human. Nothing super about him. Batman is said to be human, but between his skills, strength, money, and gadgets, and his friends who have a clubhouse on the moon, it's hard not to see his advantages over regular people. Plus, Zorro fought regular people. Batman fights colorful supervillains with powers outside of the normal range. Argento Surfer (talk) 12:32, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

That's all well and good, but it is a far cry from objective criteria and would require breaking WP:NPOV to determine whether any particular entity belongs. It's looking more and more like this article will have to be deleted. - SummerPhD^v2.0 14:03, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Well, sure. It's worth noting that Superhero#Common traits lists zero sources. The only objective criteria that could be put forward and actually defended, I think, is that only vigilante characters owned by Marvel and DC Comics can be called superheroes since they trademarked the term. Argento Surfer (talk) 16:18, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

I doubt it's really necessary to find a reliable source with a table like this which we can copy. A header notice can be added stating this is an incomplete list. Whoever is unconvinced can follow the link to a show to confirm whether or not it is superhero-related. They can feel free to remove it if it is not. Jmj713 (talk) 17:28, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Lists in Wikipedia#List membership criteria - "That is, if someone is listed as an X, that person must have been identified as an X by a reliable published source." If the article on the TV show doesn't mention superheroes, then it shouldn't be on this list. Argento Surfer (talk) 18:10, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Jmj713: That essay is referring to selection criteria which is a different issue. The question that is addressing is whether or not we would list every superhero television series or just a subset of them. For instance, List of mayors of Sudbury, Ontario lists everyone who has ever been mayor there, even those without an article. (This is possible because there are sources that list all of them and the list is relatively short). Meanwhile, List of people from Littleton, Colorado does not list everyone from that town as there is no reliable source for such information and the list would be in the hundreds of thousands of names. Instead, it lists notable people from Littleton. It still needs unambiguous membership criteria. Is someone who lived there while in college "from" Littleton or must they have been born and/or raised there?

It seems reasonable enough to limit this list to shows that have articles. That leaves open the seemingly unanswerable question of what a "superhero television series" is. Spider-man is, presumably, an obvious superhero with easily located sources calling him a superhero. Thus, presumably, "The Amazing Spider-Man" belongs on the list. Is, however, "The Electric Company" a superhero series? Spider-man appears in every episode.

Apparently, non-humans can be superheros (Superman is not human). How about Underdog? How about The Space Giants? They're robots,though two of them sure look human. If they are, why isn't the car in "Knight Rider"?

We also have superheros with no super powers (Batman, Iron Man, etc.). So, I submit the members of the various CSI and cop shows.

Bottom line: Membership here is not obvious. It is not a matter of the list being incomplete, it is a matter of the list being constantly disputed and subjective. We might just as well have List of yucky vegetables. - SummerPhD^v2.0 20:04, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Yes, Underdog, etc, count as superheroes. But again, no one has yet made a table for cartoon shows yet. As for sources, what about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Superhero_television_programs?Sparkles32 (talk) 22:14, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Another possible approach is to say that the list will be kept, but each entry should have at least one reliable, third-party reference saying that the TV show is about a superhero -- like this. What do y'all think about that? — Mudwater ^(Talk) 22:48, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Blogs are virtually never reliable sources. Please see WP:SPS. - SummerPhD^v2.0 01:33, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

@SummerPhDv2.0: E! Online is not a blog. It's the website of a TV channel. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 05:12, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, I was looking at the wrong edit. The edit immediately after that added a blog. - SummerPhD^v2.0 15:35, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Seems fair though I'm sure each show's references would suffice in most cases. And I would definitely love to have the animated series added as well. I think this is an important list to have, given the popularity the genre is enjoying (Hulu just greenlit another show based on Marvel's Runaways). Jmj713 (talk) 23:00, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Seems like a new problem. We can certainly easily find a source saying Spider-man is a superhero. We likely cannot find reliable sources that specifically refer to each show with him in it is a "superhero television series". For a couple of years, SNL included "The Ambiguously Gay Duo". Clearly, they are superheros and we can certainly find sources stating such. Is SNL a superhero television series?

Heck, I'm willing to bet we can't find sources for more than a small fraction of the shows stating that the show is a "superhero show".

Superman's powers are completely based on him being something other than human. Sounds like a number of characters on Star Trek to me.

The Lone Ranger has no super powers, he's just a 19th century James Bond. Batman and Iron Man have no superpowers, they're just smart and wealthy. Numerous non-superheros fit that mold.

Several others have no powers, other than those from an alien or magical item (Green Lantern, the Greatest American Hero, etc.). Again, numerous non-superheros fit in here.

Several gods are included as superheros: Thor, Isis, etc. Why not Jesus, Joan of Arcadia, Touched by an Angel, etc.? - SummerPhD^v2.0 01:33, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Are you being deliberately obtuse? I already posted the common definition of superhero above. Since you replied to the comment, I assume you read it. I don't understand why you're still going on with the "Is __ a superhero?" stuff. Surely you understand the difference between Thor and Thor (Marvel Comics)?

So, again, the inclusion criteria seems pretty obvious. Any entry must (1) have it's own article and (2) that article must list "superhero" as the genre or be described as such within the article. Argento Surfer (talk) 12:43, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Your link to the essay at Wikipedia:Lists_in_Wikipedia#List_membership_criteria is perhaps obvious but it blurs the lines between membership and selection. Additionally, we cannot use identification as a superhero series in a Wikipedia article as a criterion for inclusion on a Wikipedia list.

Membership is the question of whether a show is a "superhero series". In a list like this, taking "a reliable source says so" as the sole criterion invites the inclusion of highly questionable shows based on an off-hand comment by writers in various disparate fields. A biography of a score composer, someone writing about a studio's recent financial status or a review of Christmas toy offerings might lump several films together for various reasons. Is Star Trek a superhero series because someone sees the reboot series as part of the recent superhero TV/film trend? Was the recent Lone Ranger film a failed attempt to join in that trend? More to the point, this is not the one and only choice we have. You are suggesting it. If others agree, we can certainly give it a shot, but I expect problems.

Selection is the question of whether or not to include an established member: If a college TV station creates a series based on Superman, we would likely be able to satisfy the membership criteria but would exclude it. based on it not being blue-link notable. That's easy.

(We cannot use inclusion of the label "superhero series" in a Wikipedia article for inclusion in a Wikipedia list article. Wikipedia is not a reliable source and using it as a source for itself is problematic in a number of ways. Imagine someone adds a statement that a show is s superhero series to its article without sources of any kind. We then add it here based on that. Someone removes it from the original article, but another editor restores it because it is listed in this article. Repeat.) - SummerPhD^v2.0 16:04, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles is not superhero television series,because Terminator are not superhero films.Tarzan is not a superhero,because he don't fights with supervillains.-Luaza1313 11:57, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

Some may agree with you. But you have to accept the fact that others may not. Some might say if Terminator isn't a superhero is saying the same thing about Robocop. As for Tarzan, the fact that he doesn't have a colorful gallery of rogues barely disqualifies him as a superhero. There are many superheroes who don't deal with a "villain of the week." Superheroes like Manimal and the Misfits of Science don't fight supervillains, but is that grounds to disqualify them as superheroes? The problem is that everyone has a different perception, opinion and POV about what is and what's not superheroic. Some might say Luke Skywalker is a superhero, while some don't. Some might even say MacGyver is a superhero, while some don't. There might be even some who cite resources backing up their claims. Honestly, I think we should let the list's originator(s) decide what should stay on the list and what shouldn't. Because there's never going to be a complete agreement here. Sure, we can cite sources; although, most of the articles speak for themselves, but there there will always be a few naysayers- that's the world of fandoms. There are varieties of different kinds of superheroes. Some wear costumes, some don't. Some have powers, some don't. Some fight supervillains, some fight regular villains, while others just focus on saving people. There are even different subgenres of superheroes- super-spies, space heroes, alien heroes, supernatural heroes, mutant heroes, costumed vigilantes, etc. Why can't we stop worrying about what's what and have fun?Sparkles32 (talk) 02:22, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

Great. I say the guy with the crossbow on Walking Dead is a superhero. You say that's nuts. What is the best (if not "fun") way to answer that? I would say independent reliable sources. - SummerPhD^v2.0 13:59, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

I wouldn't say that's nuts at all. You'd be surprised by how many people would think that character would be considered a superhero, mainly because The Walking Dead is a comic book- he could be categorized as a post-apocalyptic hero. As for indie reliable sources, I fully agree.Sparkles32 (talk) 23:10, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

If on article not written that this television series is about superheroes, it should be removed.Luaza1313 (talk) 18:09, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

Unless we find sources saying that they're superheroes. Doesn't that sound fair? Because not every article that talks about superheroes is going to use the world "superhero." People should at least try to keep an open mind.Sparkles32 (talk) 23:10, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

If you're here to "have fun", you've come to the wrong place. Sorry. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 23:55, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Who is a superhero?

I propose that we adopt a somewhat narrower definition of who is a superhero, to be agreed upon by a consensus of editors. Let's exclude characters who don't have extraordinary powers of some kind and who are not usually associated with the superhero genre. So for example regular humans who exist in a future world of space travel, or ordinary people who have science-fictional adventures, or masked good guys from Westerns, can be taken out. For starters I propose removing the following characters -- though I haven't tried to create a complete list: The Lone Ranger, Zorro, Flash Gordon, Captain Video, Tarzan, Conan the barbarian, Xena the warrior princess, Sydney Fox the relic hunter, and Agent Carter. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 20:45, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

Sounds like the same conversation we just had in the section above this one ;) Argento Surfer (talk) 20:48, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

I guess it is, but I was hoping we could boldly spring into action, and agree to take out some of the entries, starting with the ones suggested in my post. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 20:54, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

I appreciate the initiative, yet I think we would eventually end up relying on reliable sources anyway, which is what we are already trying to do. Perhaps we should discuss the reliability and relevance of some of the sources massively used in the article. Personally, I'd as well eliminate many entries from the list, i.e. the ones in which the main characters are inspired by mythology, or by the science or detective fiction genre. However, I'd keep Agent Carter –– because of it being set in a shared superhero universe – and Conan – because Marvel Comics created a comics series on him, once again in a universe shared with many superheroes. --Tanonero (msg) 21:38, 1 September 2016 (UTC) P.S.: On second thought, that Conan series has nothing to do with the character used in the Marvel comics, with whom the former only shares the character they are loosely adapted from.

You bring up a good point. Agent Carter herself is not a superhero, but the TV series is set in a superhero universe, so it should stay on the list. But that's all the more reason to remove the entries that are definitely not set in a universe with superheroes. The Lone Ranger is a cowboy who wears a mask and fights for justice, but he's not a superhero. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 21:55, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

You say the Lone Ranger isn't a superhero. Well, NEWSFLASH: THERE ARE MANY SUPERHERO FANS THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE WILD WORLD WHO WOULD HEARTILY DISAGREE WITH YOU, BUT YOU'RE NOT PUTTING THAT INTO CONSIDERATION ON ACCOUNT OF YOUR OWN OPINION! I got a MARVELOUS idea! If we remove the Lone Ranger, we might as well remove Batman and Daredevil since they're the same, like it or not! OOPS! They count as superheroes because they're from the mainstream books like Marvel and DC, while heroes like Zorro, Lone Ranger and the Phantom aren't! We might as well remove Heroes, Alphas and Misfits since they don't wear costumes! That sounds fair, doesn't it? And hey, if we remove Forever Knight and iZombie, we might as well remove Blade and Constantine since supernatural heroes don't count as superheroes! Am I right? I'm sick of having this argument! There are different kinds of superheroes- they're not all the same! Eventually, someone else is going to come by and say "Why isn't this series on here?" and you remove it because you don't feel it's "superhero" enough and they'll be all "how is it not?" The sources verifying the shows as superhero shows was a great idea, but I guess that's not enough anymore! Apparently, a lot of people who edit this article seem to have a closed-minded perception of what THEY think is superhero and what THEY think isn't! And you can explain time and time again why the shows are superhero shows, but that's obviously falling on deaf ears because there are those who are too stubborn with their way of thinking! But you all do what you want, it's not my list! I'm sorry if I sound angry and I don't want to put anyone down, but this is beginning to get frustrating. I don't want to hurt anyone, but again, come on people- everyone's opinions on the subject is too different! I apologize in advance.Sparkles32 (talk) 22:47, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

Fans disagreeing is not a relevant argument as long as we base the list on reliable sources. Therefore, what we are left to do is to understand whether some of the sources that are being used are reliable or questionable (self-published, user-generated etc.). In the latter cases, we should remove the source along with the entries. I believe that, for starters, the following sources are susceptible to be scrutinised on their reliability or questionability (as in the link above presented) in determining what characters can be fairly defined as superheroes:

• http://www.superherotv.com/#gsc.tab=0
• http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/
• http://kidsfromcaper.com/index.htm
• http://www.doctorwhotv.co.uk/

--Tanonero (msg) 11:07, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

So why does List of American superhero films not use any sources and everyone is fine with that list? It's strange to me that it's only restricted to American films, but that's another topic of discussion. Jmj713 (talk) 17:32, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

Because information taken from pages of movies .-Luaza1313 18:08, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

Wikipedia has millions of articles. Some are nearly perfect: objective, relevant, well-sourced, etc. Others are unsourced blatherings about someone's favorite gym teacher, waiting for someone to delete them. To help us more toward the former, we have policies and guidelines. If, rather than following those you decide to go with what you think makes sense or things you saw in another article, you might get lucky and happen to add verifiable neutral information on a notable subject. More likely, however, is that what you write will eventually be edited to match our Five Pillars or simply removed.

Verifiability is a big thing around here. Without it, we end up with articles claiming that Justin Bieber married one of his random fans in Kansas City and Mr. Schwartz at PS351 was named the "Greatest Teacher Ever!" by President Taylor Swift.

That someone editing Wikipedia thinks that iCarly is a superhero television series is not what someone is hoping to find when they read an article called "List of superhero televison series". - SummerPhD^v2.0 18:40, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

You're right, I'm sorry. It's just that some people would still rather base this list solely on their opinions than on the sources. I just hope the sources are reliable enough, if not, then removal is probably for the best. But still, let's not be quick to judge the shows before the sources are. Like I said before, other editors might add in something others might find questionable. However, I still think it's unfair to exclude so-called "non-superheroes" like Zorro while others like Agent Carter are accepted solely because their from Marvel or DC- but that's just my personal opinion.Sparkles32 (talk) 22:11, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

The Listener and iZombie should come off,because these television series are about crime investigations,not about superheroes.Werewolf and Teen Wolf should come off,because these television series are about werewolves,not about superheroes Luaza1313(talk) 15:05, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

The Listener is a series about a paramedic with telepathic abilities who uses his powers to help people. It falls into the same category as Heroes and Alphas. Why doesn't it sound like a superhero show? iZombie is about a zombie woman who uses her gifts to solve crimes. Werewolf and Teen Wolf are about werewolves who fight evildoers. Vampires like Blade count as superheroes, but heroic werewolves and zombies can't? Shows like Gotham and Witchblade count as crime investigations shows- should they be taken off? Please read the sources.Sparkles32 (talk) 21:02, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

Gotham is about characters,who later become superheroes.Witchblade is based on superhero comic book. Luaza1313(talk) 16:59, 5 September 2016 (UTC)

The same can be said for iZombie, but that is, unfortunately, a matter of opinion. But what of the sources that verify that iZombie is a superhero show? Do the sources not matter?Sparkles32 (talk) 02:59, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

I think sources are not matter,because in some sources written from POV.I think website http://www.superherotv.com/#gsc.tab=0 is only good source for superhero movies and television series. So i am better know which television series is about superhero and which is not about superhero. Luaza1313 (talk) 10:11, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

If we don't find sources or if many people disagrees that one television series is superheroic,then removal is the best way.Luaza1313 (talk) 18:02, 25 September 2016

Human Target

"These television series are about spies,not about superheroes,Spies are not superheroes,Human Target is not mentioned in page List of superhero debuts."[1]

"it's the source that counts, wikipedia cannot be a source for itself"[2]

"These television series are definiteley not about superheroes."[3]

The source is a Variety article Which states, "...in the role of DC Comics superhero Human Target..."

That the series or character is or is not included in another Wikipedia article is irrelevant. Perhaps the other article needs to be corrected by adding or removing it. Alternately, the other article may have differing inclusion criteria.

The most recent discussion of inclusion criteria for this article required a reliable source stating the show in question is a superhero television series.

Variety is, IMO, certainly a reliable source. In the context of the character appearing on Arrow, the source says the character is a superhero. Is this sufficient for including two shows based on the character are "superhero television series"? - SummerPhD^v2.0 13:15, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

Arrow is definitely television series about superhero.Human Target is a private detective and bodyguard who fights with criminals,but not save people and dont't fights with supervillains.Luaza1313 (talk) 17:29, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

Are you saying Variety is not a reliable source or are you saying we should not be basing inclusion here on what reliable sources say? - SummerPhD^v2.0 16:50, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

We already have websites about superhero television series,movies etc. For instance http://www.superherotv.com/#gsc.tab=0 .Luaza1313 (talk) 17:54, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

That website doesn't have the final say on what's "superhero" and what isn't... Argento Surfer (talk) 19:20, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

If we find sources verifying if shows are superheroes, they shouldn't be removed so quickly. If people beg to differ about the series, they should just take it up to the talk page. If the sources are questionable, then removal is fine. As for whether or not spies count as superheroes, I believe that all depends. I believe super-spies and spy-fy heroes could count as superheroes since they deal with science-fiction elements- some of them even fight supervillains. For example, Black Widow is a spy, yet many count her as a superhero- she's even an Avenger. If you were Captain America, you wouldn't let the Black Widow on the team solely because she's a spy?Sparkles32 (talk) 22:21, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

Captain America and Black Widow are superheroes because they are part of Marvel Comics and they are part of Avengers.Human Target is not member of any superhero team.Website *http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/ is not good source.I think webiste http://www.superherotv.com/#gsc.tab=0 is only good source for superhero television series. Luaza1313 (talk) 12:07, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

Human Target may not be in any superhero team; however, in the comics, he coexists with the DC superheroes. So Human Target is part of a superhero universe.Sparkles32 (talk) 14:58, 24 September 2016 (UTC)

The current inclusion criterion is having an independent reliable source that states the show is a superhero television series. Being part of a team or in the same universe is immaterial.

The reliable source cited says the character is a superhero. Is that sufficient for saying the shows are superhero television series? - SummerPhD^v2.0 16:27, 24 September 2016 (UTC)

Some people says that Human Target is a superhero,mainly because he is a character of comics by origin,while James Bond and Jason Bourne are not superheroes,because they are not characters of comics by origin. they are characters of novels.Human Target don't have superhero common traits, he is just private detective and bodyguard.So I still think it's unfair consider Human Target as a superhero only because,that he is from DC Comics and only because some people says that Human Target is a superhero.Luaza1313 (talk) 16:30, 4 October 2016 (UTC)

The independent reliable source, Variety, says, "...DC Comics superhero Human Target ...". That you feel it is "unfair" is irrelevant. - SummerPhD^v2.0 03:03, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

This source says that the character is a superhero,but not saying that Human Target television series are superhero television series.We don't have reliable sources saying that television series about Human Target are superhero television series,so they are not included.Luaza1313 (talk) 16:03, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

We're doing the same for several other entries. If a reliable source states that a series focuses on a superhero, it get listed as a superhero TV series. We don't need references assessing the superhero genre, also because I am not sure it even exists. --Tanonero (msg) 16:28, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

I already said that we need sources for television series,but not for characters.And we need sources says that one television series is superheroic.Luaza1313 (talk) 16:45, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

In what circumstances you would define a superhero as not taking part in a "superheroic" series? --Tanonero (msg) 17:00, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

I think show is superheroic,if the main character is a superhero. Characters must have common traits to be a superhero.Human Target don't have common traits.Luaza1313 (talk) 17:18, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

If you accept that a show is superheroic when the main character is a superhero, we are already halfway there. Then, you should also consider that — as it has been already explained countless times – on Wikipedia it's the external reliable sources that determines what is what. Variety defines the character as a superhero, therefore, following the simplest of syllogism to which you seem to agree too, the show is superheroic. --Tanonero (msg) 19:38, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

This is the main problem here. We do not generally have sources that say a show is a superhero show. Cobbling together some kind of idea that it has to be "the main character" is original research for setting the criterion AND for determining who is "the main character". We can certainly find sources calling Mermaid Man and Spider-man superheroes. I don't think anyone would call them "the main character" of "SpongeBob Squarepants" or "The Electric Company". We do not, however, have a source for a "superhero television series" being one where the main character is a superhero: That's a criterion that someone here created out of thin air. Further, we do not have sources saying who is "the" or "a" main character. A kid's show about a kid working at a hospital for superheroes would seem to be a superhero show, but none of the main characters are in any way superheros. If a source says Kes on "Star Trek: Voyager" is a superhero, should the show be included? She's arguably a major character for the first few seasons, the leaves the show. The Great Gazoo is probably called a superhero somewhere. He's clearly a major character in the last season of "The Flinstones"...

Long story short: We do not have reliable sources calling shows "superhero television series". Yes, we have sources calling ch or aracters "superheroes", and we have an article to list them. Frankensteining together: show has a character, a source calls them a superhero, we decide they are the main character or it defines the show is not encyclopedic. - SummerPhD^v2.0 03:31, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

Human Target is not a superhero,because he don't fight with supervillians,he don't superpowers,he don't save people.This list is about television series,not about characters.We do not have a reliable source that saying that television shows about Human Target are superhero television shows,so television shows about Human Target are not in that list.Luaza1313 (talk) 12:43, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

Here and here Human Target is defined as a superhero TV show, just to mention two sources. --Tanonero (msg) 12:38, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

With those two sources, under the current criteria, "Human Target" is (IMO) unquestionably a superhero television series. Independent reliable sources say unequivocally it is a "superhero TV series". - SummerPhD^v2.0 13:15, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

superherotv.com

I see nothing to indicate that this is anything other than a self-published source: no indication of editorial oversight, no reputation for fact-checking and accuracy, etc. Comments before I remove this source? - SummerPhD^v2.0 16:45, 24 September 2016 (UTC)

Website Superheroes Lives was great source for superhero television series.But now website http://www.superherotv.com/#gsc.tab=0 is good source for superhero television series.Because this website is not user-generated.Luaza1313 (talk) 17:35, 24 September 2016 (UTC)

Please explain how superherotv.com meets the criteria outlined at WP:IRS. I see no indication this is a reliable source. It seems to be little more than a blog. - SummerPhD^v2.0 17:36, 24 September 2016 (UTC)

Not anyone can edit this website.Luaza1313 (talk) 17:39, 24 September 2016 (UTC)

I did not say that anyone could. I see no indication of editorial oversight or a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. It seems to be little more than a blog with a bunch of links to amazon's affiliate program. - SummerPhD^v2.0 17:56, 24 September 2016 (UTC)

I agree with SummerPhDv2.0. Self-published website that does not meet the criteria for reliability. With the source, however, also all the entries supported by it should go. --Tanonero (msg) 10:00, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

Deleting those with a bad source while keeping those with no source makes no sense that I can see. Are you advocating purging the unsourced entries as well? - SummerPhD^v2.0

The unsourced ones shouldn't even have been added in the first place, especially in light of this discussion. --Tanonero (msg) 15:07, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

So would that mean shows like Black Scorpion, Nightman and MANTIS, which are actual superhero shows, will be removed solely because they were tagged with the source?Sparkles32 (talk) 03:59, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

@Sparkles32: Why would we want to do that? Those three shows you mention are referenced by Rotten Tomatoes in the list. --Tanonero (msg) 11:01, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

@Tanonero: Oh, that's right. Nevermind.Sparkles32 (talk) 14:49, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

Removed. - SummerPhD^v2.0 15:08, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

internationalhero.co.uk

The homepage for this site gives every indication that this is not a reliable source. It is the work of one person. For example, "The first thing I always do with any encyclopedia or "Handbook" is look for certain favourite, but obscure, characters, to see what has been missed out. If you do the same, and find that I am missing someone you think needs including, or have erroneous information (bear in mind that a lot of times, especially with older characters, I am going on second hand information) then please e-mail me. Contributions are always welcome."

Any comments before I remove this source? - SummerPhD^v2.0 16:45, 24 September 2016 (UTC)

Like above. Self-published and, to an extent, user-generated personal website. --Tanonero (msg) 10:02, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

I'm sorry. It seemed like a good source at the time.Sparkles32 (talk) 03:59, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

Removed. - SummerPhD^v2.0 14:45, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

Indiana Jones

Indiana Jones is not a superhero.He is just an archaeologist.Indiana Jones films are not superhero films.He don't save people. I think people who watched the movies Indiana Jones and TV series about him,disagree that Indiana Jones is a superhero.Very some people says that Indiana Jones is a superhero.So I think it's unfair consider Indiana Jones as a superhero.Luaza1313 (talk) 11:41, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

That's a matter of opinion. Some would agree that Indiana Jones is a superhero and some wouldn't. But I'm not getting into that again because you don't listen.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Sparkles32 (talk • contribs) 14:50, September 26, 2016 (UTC)

The source cited for "The Young Indiana Jones Chronicles" seems to be an open submission cite: "The views expressed in FM are those of the individual, and we support that completely. With one exception: we do not condone hatred or violence against anyone. Fun is fun; hatred is not. We invite you to read our ‘zine, tell your friends, and even submit something if you’d like." I see no indication of a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy or any kind of editorial oversight. - SummerPhD^v2.0 15:17, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

If many people disagree that one television series is superheroic, it should be removed.If only some people agree that one television series is superheroic, it shouldn't be added.Luaza1313 (talk) 15:40, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

Again, that's your opinion. As they said before, opinion's are irrelevant. If sources are reliable and say they're a superhero show, then there's nothing further to discuss, or at least there shouldn't be. However, if more than one person working on this list disagree if an entry posted is a superhero show, then maybe people should go on the talk page and have some kind of a vote. Does that sound fair?Sparkles32 (talk) 19:51, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

That "many people disagree" is not an objective criterion. Wikipedia cannot have a "List of..." article that is based on the opinions of individual editors. We need objective, repeatable criteria based on independent reliable sources to have an article. - SummerPhD^v2.0 20:44, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

Have you ever seen any Indiana Jones films , which are all about archealogy ? Indiana jones don't have superpowers,he dont't fight with supervillains and he don't save people.Indiana jones films and television series are not even mentioned in websites about superheroes.So i think it's unfair consider Indiana Jones only because of this source. Luaza1313 (talk) 17:50, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

Your argument is completely off topic. Under Our current criteria, independent reliable sources determine whether or not a show is included. We do not currently have a reliable source saying the show is a superhero series so it is not included. Your opinion as to whether or not Indiana Jones is a superhero has absolutely nothing to do with it, but Indiana Jones is not currently included. - SummerPhD^v2.0 20:47, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

Bulk removal

Is removal of valid entries really necessary when instead sources can be added very easily. Is Justice League Action really not a superhero show? Jmj713 (talk) 21:32, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

If you know of a show that is missing, feel free to add it with a reliable source. I'm not paid enough to run around looking for sources for every show that someone wants to add. - SummerPhD^v2.0 22:28, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

Oh man, if only that was a real job. Argento Surfer (talk) 17:56, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

Like I said, I don't get paid enough to do it. :) - SummerPhD^v2.0 20:49, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

I believe the bulk removal is against WP:PRESERVE ("Preserve appropriate content"). This means tagging uncited entries or adding citations where possible, but not removing for removal's sake. Please reinstate. Jmj713 (talk) 23:05, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

As PRESERVE recommends, I did consider doing a quick search for sources for the material others added without appropriate sources. I decided there was no way to do a "quick search" for the 400 entries that were unsourced. In fact, I strongly suspect the entire list was original research. I did not see 400+ "cite needed tags" or one general article tag as likely to have any results.

At the moment, I think we have an extension of that problem. An editor or two is thinking of shows they believe should be on the list and looking for sources -- of whatever quality -- to justify them. (We have a few accepted sources that list shows that have not been added here.)

Reading a bit further down past PRESERVE, readers are directed to WP:NOR as one of the instances where removal might be the more appropriate choice. I felt this was one of those times.

If you feel strongly that the entries belong on the list, you are certainly welcome to find sources for those hundreds of opinions.[4]

I personally believe that finding sources that list shows and adding them is more encyclopedic than forming your own opinions and finding sources to match. I'm rather willing to bet I can find numerous patently absurd entries that I can support with reliable sources, if WP:POINT weren't such a profoundly decent idea. - SummerPhD^v2.0 00:03, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

What belongs here, clarified.

Based on discussion on this page, WP:STANDALONE and WP:CSC, shows are included on this list if and only if they meet BOTH of the following criteria:

1) The show has an existing stand alone article. (See also WP:WTAF.)

2) Independent reliable sources state the show is a superhero television series.

2a) If you CANNOT provide an independent reliable source directly stating it is a superhero series but are absolutely positive that you can prove without a shadow of a doubt that the show is a superhero series, it does NOT belong here.

2b) If the show has independent reliable sources that directly state it is a superhero series but you are absolutely sure you can convince everyone beyond a shadow of a doubt that the show is NOT a superhero series, the show DOES belong here.

At the risk of repeating myself by saying the same thing that I have said before, then reiterated, then restated, then explained again, your opinion of whether or not a show is or is not a superhero series does NOT matter here, no matter how sure you are that you are right.

That, failing consensus to the contrary, is the standard here. - SummerPhD^v2.0 21:06, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

1) If many people agree that it is a superhero television series,it Does belongs here.

2) If many disagrees that it is a superhero television series,it does NOT belongs here.

This criteria is better in my opinion.Luaza1313 (talk) 16:30, 4 October 2016 (UTC)

"Wikipedia does not publish original research. Its content is determined by previously published information rather than the beliefs or experiences of its editors. Even if you're sure something is true, it must be verifiable before you can add it." This is one of Wikipedia's core policies, VERIFIABILITY We do not have a way to verifiably state that "many people agree" that anyone is a superhero. We can verifiably state that Variety or Entertainment Weekly or the New York Times (etc.) call a particular show a superhero series. - SummerPhD^v2.0 03:52, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

Please do not edit comments that have already been responded to. By changing the text that I responded to, you change the meaning of what I said, effectively putting words in my mouth. Feel free to add new comments. - SummerPhD^v2.0 03:05, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

1)This list is Only about television series,Not about web series.

2) If many people agree that it is a superhero television series,it Does belongs here.

3) If many disagrees that it is a superhero television series,it does NOT belongs here.

This criteria is better in my opinion..Luaza1313 (talk) 3:94, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

I don't know that anyone has said that anything other than television series belong here. It seems to be the only part of the inclusion criteria not in dispute. If anyone does feel that, for example, a web series belongs on this list of "televison series", they'll need to raise that issue.

I still to not see an objective, verifiable way for us to determine what "many people" agree or disagree on. If anyone feels this should be the criterion, please explain. - SummerPhD^v2.0 03:09, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

Web series are not part of television.Please don't include any web series.If you want to include web series please create page list of superhero web series.Luaza1313 (talk) 12:33, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

No one said they should be included. - SummerPhD^v2.0 13:27, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

Web series are eligible for Emmys, so they're fine to include as television shows. Jmj713 (talk) 15:10, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

It doesn't matter,that web series are eligible for Emmys.Please do not include web series in that list.This list is Only about about television series.Web series have own category.Web series have even genre subcategories.So please don not include web series in that list.Because this article named List of superhero television series.Luaza1313 (talk) 16:56, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

The Emmy Awards seem to consider web-based shows to be television shows. Jmj713 apparently agrees. Luaza1313 feels they are not. That's one source in favor of including them and zero against. Any other sources to consider here? - SummerPhD^v2.0 18:02, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

Your opinion doesn't matter.Web series are not television series,so they are not in that list.If you want include web series,please create page list of superhero web series.Luaza1313 (talk) 18:05, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

Your opinion is that web series are not television series. You are an editor. The opinion of the National Academy of Television Arts and Sciences is that web series are television series. They are an internationally recognized organization whose top award, the Emmy, is on the same plane as an Oscar, Tony or Grammy award. They are also a reliable source. Do we have any other sources on this? - SummerPhD^v2.0 20:26, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

YouTube is not television channel.YouTube is an website.Television series,web series and film serials are different things.Some reliable sources may contain wrong information. For example High Road to China,Young Sherlock Holmes and The Grand Budapest Hotel were nominated for Best Fantasy Film by Saturn Awards,but they are not fantasy films.So I am against wrong infromation.Luaza1313 (talk) 12:59, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

I stand with Jmj713 and SummerPhDv2.0. We should keeping to include less "conventionally" broadcasted series as long as they are eligible for TV series awards. --Tanonero (msg) 17:08, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

Clarification: I have not !voted here. I have merely commented on the the discussion: A reliable source vs. one editor's opinion. - SummerPhD^v2.0 17:53, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

Do you understand differences between web series and television series?Web series are series,that broadcasted in the Internet.Television series are series,that broadcasted in television.So it doesn't matter,that web series are eligible for Emmys. Luaza1313 (talk) 18:17, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for this thorough explanation. Now everything is clearer... So, should we remove all the web series such as Luke Cage, Daredevil etc. just because you need the Internet to watch them (also on your TV)? The medium is evolving, but the format is the same. --Tanonero (msg) 17:27, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

We should keep Luke Cage,Daredevil,Jessica Jones because they are shows of Netflix.YouTube web series shouldn't be there ,because YouTube is free website and anyone can watch any video without payment.Any Netflix show you can't watch free.Luaza1313 (talk) 18:44, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

The difference here is that your opinion cannot be used to set inclusion criteria for this list. We need inclusion criteria from independent reliable sources. The National Academy of Television Arts and Sciences is a reliable source. Your opinion that they are "wrong" is immaterial. The Saturn Awards sets their criteria for what makes a film "fantasy". Your opinion that their opinion is wrong does not change that.

Wikipedia is based on reliable sources. You don't seem to get that, Luaza1313. - SummerPhD^v2.0 17:53, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

The Encyclopedia of Superheroes on Film and Television, 2d ed.

We have a problem. This source, published in February 2004, is over 700 page.[5]

It is currently cited 20 to 30 times, without page numbers, often for shows that started after February 2004.

The lack of page numbers is a problem in two ways. First, it's fairly sloppy. A citation is meant to make it as easy as possible for a reader to find the material cited. Second is an issue I don't think we currently have but easily could: fake sources. In other articles, some editors have taken to citing heavily used sources in order to add material that is not actually in the source. Page numbers will help prevent that.

Next up is the dating. In several cases, a show from well after the date of this source is citing this book. Clearly this book does not discuss the 2007 Flash Gordon series. I'm assuming the book discusses Flash Gordon the character. While this particular instance may not seem like a problem (assuming the character discussed is substantially similar to the character in the 2007 show), this may not always be the case. I have previously mentioned Spider-man appearing in "The Electric Company". Yes, Spider-man is easily sourced as being a superhero. However, is "The Electric Company" a superhero television series as a result? We can easily show that Mermaid Man is a superhero. Is "SpongeBob Squarepants" a superhero television show? If "60 Minutes" runs a segment on Superman, is it now a superhero television series? - SummerPhD^v2.0 22:07, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

"...not all comic book characters are necessarily superheros. Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers, for instance..." pg. 8. I have removed Flash Gordon. - SummerPhD^v2.0 22:52, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

I started working on it. --Tanonero (msg) 12:03, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

Not all comic book characters are necessarily superheroes? Well, in some points, that's true. People wouldn't consider Archie Andrews or Dennis the Menace as superheroes, for sure. But saying that Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers aren't superheroes- that sounds like an opinion. And I thought opinions weren't relevant to the list. What if someone found independent reliable sources saying characters like that are superheroes, just out of curiosity?Sparkles32 (talk) 22:49, 30 September 2016 (UTC)?

@Sparkles32: I believe SummerPhDv2.0 is quoting the very same reference that was used to support the inclusion of Flash Gordon in the list. --Tanonero (msg) 23:25, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

Yes, that quote is from the source that was cited for calling Flash Gordon a superhero. The source, as quoted, pretty clearly states that Flash Gordon is not a superhero. - SummerPhD^v2.0 03:03, 1 October 2016 (UTC)

Sparkles32: In your opinion, Flash Gordon is a superhero. Others may disagree. For the purposes of the this list, it does not matter. If we have reliable sources that call the show a superhero series, we include it. If we do not have reliable sources we do not include it. - SummerPhD^v2.0 03:03, 1 October 2016 (UTC)

And I understand that. And you're right, opinions don't matter. It just sounded like you were making an opinion, stating that the Flash Gordon shows wouldn't be welcome even if we did find a relevant source. I apologize. I hate thinking that I'm making you repeat yourself.Sparkles32 (talk) 03:07, 1 October 2016 (UTC)

DC and Marvel

I don't understand the removal of DC and Marvel series. This makes the list even more incomplete. This is supposed to be an all-inclusive list of all superhero shows, not non-DC/Marvel superheros. Removing a large and important portion of these series removes a lot of context and a reader cannot easily see the progression of these types of shows throughout time. Jmj713 (talk) 14:55, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

I agree, I believe we should restore to the previous version. --Tanonero (msg) 17:52, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

All television series by Marvel and DC are superhero television series.So that's why they shouldn't be in this page.They should be in own pages. Luaza1313 (talk) 19:15, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

The current inclusion criteria for this article demand an independent reliable source saying that the show is a superhero series. If you would like to re-open that discussion, please suggest alternatives for discussion. - SummerPhD^v2.0 02:23, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

If we decided to restore the list as it was (that is, with Marvel and DC branded series included), how could we do it considering all the edits that have been done post facto? @Goldeneyed: You should perhaps see this discussion following your unilateral and bold edit. --Tanonero (msg) 13:19, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

I based my bold move on the format of a similar Wiki page. The List_of_television_programs_based_on_comics page does not include any Marvel and DC properties. It has just a reference on top to the respective pages of DC and Marvel. And it was already like that before I made any changes. I prefer exlcuding Marvel and DC properties because those 2 pages are updated on a daily basis. And all their television series are based on superheroes. So it`s redundant to copy and paste stuff from another page and dilute the content of the other superhero television programs. Either way, we either include all Marvel and DC films on both The List_of_television_programs_based_on_comics and List of superhero television series, or exclude them from both. 17:37, 21 November 2016 (UTC)Goldeneyed (talk)

The current consensus criteria here calls for blue link notable, television and web series where independent reliable sources confirm that they are "superhero television series". List of television series based on DC Comics includes redlinks, commercials, pilots and lacks such sources. If you wish to change the inclusion criteria here, please suggest criteria for discussion. - SummerPhD^v2.0 18:46, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Unsourced

Am I being blamed for posting Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles without sources? That wasn't me- someone else posted them without bothering to put sources. Speaking of which, has anybody else found any sources for the TMNT shows?Sparkles32 (talk) 22:29, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

Dispute re Alias and Chuck'

Luaza1313 and Sparkles32 Seem to be having a disagreement.

First things first: Personal attacks are not acceptable.

As for the dispute, the bold, revert, discuss cycle is a good approach that helps avoid edit wars. If you boldly make a change and another editor disagrees with you, rather than simply restoring your change, take it to the talk page.

Another relevant issue here is cobweb links. Yes, sometimes web pages move or are rewritten or deleted. This does not mean the source should be removed along with any material citing it. One option is to tag the source with {{dl}} to see if someone can find a valid link for the article (this is why full cites are important). If a new URL for the same article cannot be found, an archived version of the page will likely do the trick. My personal favorite is the [archive.org Internet Archive], but there are others available. If the link refers to an online version that is also available in print, it is certainly possible to cite the print edition.

With that, I'll leave you to discuss the issue. - SummerPhD^v2.0 16:31, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

I apologize if this disagreement went too far. However, finding potentially reliable sources approximately saying "superhero television series" would make finding sources more difficult than necessary. If that were the case, other editors would have to go through the trouble of looking at the sources present and have another bulk removal. Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and Powerpuff Girls have no sources at all and nobody seems to be in a rush to remove them. I, personally, don't want it to it to come to another bulk removal.Sparkles32 (talk) 22:14, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

I wanted to bring everyone's attention that Luaza1313 has once again removed Chuck and Alias without taking it up with the talk page first. Only this time, he/she made it so the removals couldn't be returned without undoing the other changes he/she made. Also, Luaza1313 made a bulk removal without consulting with the talk page first- something about the titles not being simpatico with the new source he/she found. I believe it wasTanonero who said that such major removals weren't allowed without discussing it with the talk page first; yet, Luaza1313 persists on doing so. However, the new source he/she found seems okay, I guess. Does anybody else have anything to say about any this?Sparkles32 (talk) 23:44, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

I believe that his/her attitude has become a little problematic, even though I like the new source that has been introduced. I haven't had time to check, but I believe that among the entries unilaterally removed there were a few properly sourced that did deserve to stay. --Tanonero (msg) 11:11, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

FilmAffinity is a good source.I removed titles that they are not mentioned in this website and added sources for television series that don't have sources. luaza1313 (talk) 11:38, 7 Feburary 2017 (UTC)

That a series is not mentioned by FilmAffinity does not mean it does not belong on this list. If independent reliable sources say it is a superhero television series, the current inclusion criteria say it should be here. - SummerPhD^v2.0 14:58, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

This source does not call Alias a "superhero television series".This source does not call Chuck a "superhero television series".That's why I removed these television series. luaza1313 (talk) 15:08, 7 Feburary 2017 (UTC)

luaza1313: The first one is about Alias which is undoubtedly a television series about Sydney and says "Sydney was a superhero..."

Chuck undoubtedly is a television series about Chuck and the source says, "...Chuck Bartowski was one of televisions most unlikely superheroes. NBC’s hit series..."

If I am understanding you correctly, you are taking a hard line and are demanding that the source use the exact phrase "superhero television series". Is that correct? - SummerPhD^v2.0 22:02, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Yes,source should call "superhero television series".If you can't find source,use website FilmAffinity. luaza1313 (talk) 10:53, 8 Feburary 2017 (UTC)

I thought we were over that. Anyway, I guess what remains to do is to try reaching a consensus over which course of action to adopt. a) a series should be explicitly defined as a superhero series in order to be included in our list; b) the main characters of a series should be defined as superheros in order for the related series to be included in our list. I support "B" (and I believe Sparkles32 does, too) and consider "A" nonsensical as based on the assumption that a series on a superhero may not be a superhero series. Luaza1313 supports "A". I hope to reach a consensus in light of not having further unilateral bulk removals. --Tanonero (msg) 18:17, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

Yes, I choose B.Sparkles32 (talk) 23:57, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

In this website television series are definitely about superheroes.Independent reliable sources may contain wrong information.Because they are written by people with different opinions.I think website FilmAffinity is a good source.Because this website don't have wrong information. luaza1313 (talk) 18:21, 8 Feburary 2017 (UTC)

It appears to be a good source. But the same could be said about The Internet Movie Database, but we're unfortunately not allowed to use that source.Sparkles32 (talk) 03:14, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

FilmAffinity is definitely more reliable than IMDB.Because not anyone can edit pages of films and television series.And not anyone can add or change any genre in pages.luaza1313 (talk) 12:03, 9 Feburary 2017 (UTC)

IMDb is off-topic here. It is generally not a reliable source, but no one is trying to use it here.

If we all agree that FilmAffinity is a reliable source, then we can use it. If, however, FilmAffinity does not call a series a "superhero television series" I fail to see have that has any bearing on whether or not a series is listed here. This article is for television series that independent reliable sources say are superhero television series, not List of superhero television series according to FilmAffinity.

Yes, independent reliable sources can be wrong. We are not in a position to judge what is right or wrong, though. Instead of on-going arguments over what is or is not "true", Wikipedia relies or verifiability. If independent reliable sources said that "Two Broke Girls" is a superhero series, Wikipedia would say it too. If, OTOH, "Jimbo's Super Duper TV Blog" says so, we do not report that because the blog is not a reliable source.

The sources you removed for Alias and Chuck seem to be reliable.

I have questions about FilmAffinity. In general terms, Wikipedia considers a source to be reliable if it has a reputation for fact checking and accuracy. I see nothing to indicate that the "Genre" section of the site is subject to any kind of fact checking or editorial oversight. The site really doesn't tell us much either, only that it was "created in 2002 by Pablo Kurt, Daniel Nicolás and a team of programmers, web designers and movie buffs." Given their model is affiliate transactions, I'd bet most of the table info is a dump from a retail site. For song genres, we've run into a similar issue with AllMusic; their sidebar is simply a dump from amazon and we consider it to not be a reliable source.

You clearly are not demanding that a source directly use the phrase "superhero television series" as none of the FilmAffinity cites you added use it. As a result, I consider that portion of the issue resolved: If a television show's main character(s) is/are described as a "superhero" by an independent reliable source we include it.

IMO:

1)FilmAffiliate is not a reliable source and should be removed.

2) There was no reason to remove the sources that were there before FilmAffilite. They should be restored.

3) The sources for Alias and Chuck are reliable and those should be restored.

4) We do not need the specific phrase "superhero television series" to appear in the source. If the show is clearly a television series and one or more major characters are described by reliable sources as being "superheros" the show is included. - SummerPhD^v2.0 19:34, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

I agree with every word, and I want also to point out the we can actually restore the version before the bulk removal without losing anything as shown here. --Tanonero (msg) 20:34, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

I agree as well.Sparkles32 (talk) 03:16, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

Removal of Knight Rider

A new editor, Aslansalpagarov has removed entries without taking it up to the talk page first. The source for Knight Rider, http://www.gearheaddiva.com/689/k-i-t-t-the-first-real-smart-car/, says "...this superhero isn't without a sidekick." Therefore, this source says the character is a superhero. Plus, this person is going with that same song and dance saying the source does not precisely say that it's a "superhero television series." Unless others say the source is unreliable, then it shouldn't be removed. If anything should be removed, it's the animated entries without sources. Yes, I agree that they're superhero shows and they deserve to be on the list, but as it was said before, opinions are irrelevant.Sparkles32 (talk) 19:16, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

I am sorry. I didn't read this source completely. Aslansalpagarov (talk) 19:16 , 5 March 2017 (UTC)

Aslansalpagarov has been blocked as a sock of Luaza1313. - SummerPhD^v2.0 20:38, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

It's okay. Thank you. But the next time you feel something should be removed, please take it up to the talk page beforehand.Sparkles32 (talk) 23:08, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

Actually, if you find something without a source (or a source that doesn't confirm the inclusion) and feel a source is required, feel free to remove it, per WP:V. If anyone believes the entry should be here, they can restore it, with a reliable source. - SummerPhD^v2.0 04:03, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

Aslansalpagarov says this source isn't stand alone. Could someone explain to me how http://www.mtv.com/news/2620953/shocker-toys-the-maxx-depends-on-what-your-definition-of-isz-is/ isn't a reliable source for The Maxx?Sparkles32 (talk) 06:24, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

Yes it is reliable source.I removed this series,because I thought article The Maxx is only about the character.Actually this article is about comics and television series about this character.That's why I restored this television series. Aslansalpagarov (talk) 14:05, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

Aslansalpagarov has been blocked as a sock of Luaza1313. - SummerPhD^v2.0 20:38, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

Text Editor

I can't seem to find the text editor on the editing pages. Is this some new change? One problem is the dash seperating years. Without the text editor, I can't tell whether to use - or -.(Sparkles32 (talk) 05:02, 14 April 2017 (UTC))

Never mindSparkles32 (talk) 23:29, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Sleepy Hollow

Someone removed Sleepy Hollow from the list, saying it doesn't call the main character a superhero. However, the source, http://www.denofgeek.com/us/tv/sleepy-hollow/240688/sleepy-hollow-and-the-abyss-gazes-back-review, refers to the two main characters as "biblical superheroes." Whoever removed it, or anyone else, might want to take another look at the source.Sparkles32 (talk) 23:05, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

The other editor, 188.170.198.136 has no other edits. Given your explanation, I'd say you can restore it. If anyone disagrees, they'll need to explain. - SummerPhD^v2.0 03:10, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

Thanks! God bless!!!Sparkles32 (talk) 18:45, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

Mortal Kombat: Legacy and The Adventures of Pete & Pete

I believe we've had this discussion before. I re-posted Mortal Kombat: Legacy after finding a better source. But someone removed it again with the same song-and-dance that web series don't count as television series, and that YouTube doesn't count as a channel. Does anyone else agree? Plus, this same person removed The Adventures of Pete & Pete saying the superhero character in the show is a minor character. If memory serves, this superhero was a regular on the show. Don't regulars count as main characters, whether or not they're the stars of the show? What do you guys say?Sparkles32 (talk) 02:07, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

New socking

A recent IP editor on this page (and the article) is an obvious sock of the indefinitely blocked Luaza1313.

I have reverted all of their edits, per WP:EVADE. - SummerPhD^v2.0 20:40, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

Questionable inclusion and country of orgin

1. Half of the shows both Live-action and Animated are American so it would make sense to seperate them from all none-American TV series. 2. Inclusion and exclusion of shows, lot of shows are of questionable inclusion. If list is supposed to includ every type hero(s), then Baywatch can be included, as there done various heroic rescues of people near drowning on the show. But if the idea is to include superheros, then Baywatch fails criteria if superheroes are supposed to have facemasks or cape or supernatural strength and or aided by technology. Then also same goes for Buffy the Vampire slayer as the show is more akin to the horror genre and show was not sold to the public as superhero show. List also seems to include lot of detective/spy series and none of those series were sold to public as superhero shows Inspector Gadget for example I never recall that show be advertised superhero show let lone the live-action films Disney produced based on the show, and finally X-Files was never sold as Superhero show and I never recall X-files episode calming that Mulder and Skully were superheroes, just detectives investigating supernatural and sci-fi things. DoctorHver (talk) 01:57, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

List of American superhero television series and List of superhero television series, IF they are to exist as two separate articles should have two talk pages. I'll request a correction of the erroneous moves in a moment.

As to whether or not there should be a list of all the shows and another for the American shows, I am of the opinion that adding a "Country" column to the existing (sortable) list would allow us to keep this as one article (long though it may be) subject to one set of inclusion criteria, one layout and no issues with questions of shows that sources say are from more than one country.

The current inclusion criteria demand that independent reliable sources state that the show be blue link notable (have its own Wikipedia article), be a television series and have a character(s) who is directly called a "superhero" by independent reliable sources. These criteria (discussed above) are objective and verifiable, in keeping with WP:NOR and WP:V. This nicely avoiids the constant arguments that would otherwise ensue about whether or not various characters are superheroes. - SummerPhD^v2.0 16:37, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

That's right. Everyone has a different opinion about what's superheroic and what isn't. I recall on the show, Buffy has been referred to as a superhero more than once. Some people would agree that Buffy isn't a superhero, while others would say saying Buffy isn't a superhero is like saying Blade and Constantine aren't superheroes, and they're in the same level. Buffy has super-strength, is nigh-invulnerable, knows martial arts, fights monsters and has saved the world a large number of times- some would call that a superhero. But then again, some people might not see past the horror elements or the fact that she doesn't wear a costume, so they may not agree. Concerning shows like Baywatch- keep in mind that superheroes come in different shapes and sizes. Not all wear costumes, not all have powers and not all fight a rogue's gallery of supervillains. Some people would say it's all about attitude. For example, some people would say that MacGyver isn't a superhero because he's a normal guy who doesn't wear a costume and fights normal criminals. However, others may say that MacGyver is a superhero due to his ability to scientifically get himself out of dangerous situations. It's only fair that we use indie reliable sources verifying if the shows or the characters are superheroes. As for countries, I don't see the relevance in that, but come what may. I'm open to putting a country column if it means bringing the entries back. I don't know if there's suppose to be a certain length, but this is supposed to be a complete list.Sparkles32 (talk) 04:46, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

Why does there need to be a separate American and non-American list? I have the same problem with the List of American superhero films. Why not just superhero films? Non-American ones don't matter or aren't as "superheroey"? Jmj713 (talk) 22:09, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

Requesting cleanup

Help me, Mopman, you're my only hope!

In an attempt to create a new page, List of American superhero television series, DoctorHver moved List of American superhero television series), rather than creating a new page.[6]

I mistakenly thought there was merely a redirect added to the new talk page and tried to fix it by creating a distinct talk page. Now situation cannot be repaired by mere mortals and requires the intervention of the closest thing Wikipedia has to superheroes: you.— Preceding unsigned comment added by SummerPhDv2.0 (talk • contribs) 16:51, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

Well, I didn't know I was Wikipedia's nearest thing to a superhero, but now I do. I have moved the article, and its talk page, back. Since the editor who made the move has expressed regret at having done so, this is presumably an uncontroversial move. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 14:04, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

I was about to add a swooning "My hero!" but couldn't bring myself to do it. - SummerPhD^v2.0 17:01, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

Another Bulk Removal

I noticed DoctorHver made a bulk removal, mostly the non-American shows. The Pretender was also removed and it happens to be an American show. Also, for the record, these shows had sources. I don't know what we're going to do whether this is to become a page for just American shows or shows with different countries. But I just thought this should be brought to attention. Also keep in mind that some shows are produced by both American and foreign countries. I noticed many of the Canadian shows weren't removed if this is supposed to be an "American list" now.Sparkles32 (talk) 05:08, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

SummerPhD^v2.0, Jmj713 (talk) and --Tanonero (msg); may I or may I not have your permission to undo the edits, or do you want to restore them or do you have any other ideas?Sparkles32 (talk) 01:51, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Not that you would need anyone permission, but I think removed non-American shows should be returned and if need be a Country column cou8ld be added. Jmj713 (talk) 20:49, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

I restored the removals, etc. This is a list for superhero shows in general.Sparkles32 (talk) 23:37, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

The entries that I removed, mainly international ones, spy series and pesudo super hero shows should have stayed removed specially those last two, you could make an arguement for the first group since some international show are actuaully a superhero shows. But Some shows that are included here like The Saints have nothing to do with superheros, never its advertised as such and I don't think the phrase is used at all on the show. The concept of the Saint's more related to the 60's spy fictions and spy fictions were never sold of as Superhero. Now for the Pesudo superhero show such as Baywatch, the term superhero was never used on the show. Nor was it adverted as such. The removed international entries, ones should have stayed removed or at very least separated from the American series. As I would assume that most pepole looking at this article wants look for American shows so it would make better navigation to seperate the two. The table as it currently stands is just bulk of misleading entries. DoctorHver (talk) 04:21, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

This list is not restricted to American shows. If you feel the list should be split into two separate lists, you'll need to discuss that here and form a consensus.

There is no reason to assume people would be looking for only American shows. Wikipedia is an international encyclopedia.

Currently, the way we decide what to include (the "inclusion criteria") are: Does the show have an article on Wikipedia? Do independent reliable sources call it a superhero series or say one or more of the characters are superheroes? If the answers to both questions are "yes", we include it. If you feel we should decide some other way, please explain how. Our inclusion criteria, however, must be objective (not use our opinions) and unambiguous (very clear). - SummerPhD^v2.0 14:17, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Weird.

Many of the shows came first before the actual premiered on another year. --2601:C8:C001:9AF0:DC63:AD6D:A65D:3963 (talk) 00:11, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

Citations, rearrangments, removals, etc.

As you guys probably already know, there were big changes this weekend thanks to the IP, 2601:C8:C001:9AF0:DC63:AD6D:A65D:3963 (talk). He/She posted some edits without citing independent reliable sources verifying the shows were superhero series or one or so of the main characters were superheroes, which was written above. He/She also scrambled the years around, professing that some aired previously before other shows regardless of the years they came out. Anyway, I managed to find some sources for most of the shows. However, I removed The Man from U.N.C.L.E., Three's Company and Secret Diary of a Call Girl because I couldn't find any sources for them- sorry. God bless!!!

Fake sources

Loads of these entries are fabricating sources. Jeremiah isn't even listed on the link cited as a source. American Gods links to an article stating gods AREN'T superheroes (but apparently just mentioning the word "superheroes" is enough?), Stranger Things links to an article about Halloween costumes where Eleven is offered up as a superhero but that doesn't make her one, she isn't fighting crime, or setting out to combat supernatural entities regularly. Furthermore why is Walking Dead, Sherlock, Luther, Nikita/La Femme Nikita, all the Street Fighter stuff and a host of others even doing on this list?

The fact is this list of live action stuff is totally useless in its current state if you're interested in researching ACTUAL superheroes. Ø (talk) 06:33, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

Some of the entries you mention do have sources claiming they're television shows (even if I disagree with some of them as well). Others just don't. For example, Luther has a pretty good source, though, claiming it's styled after superhero shows enough to fit into the genre. I didn't think it would either, but it did.

• Cadillacs And Dinosaurs links to an article on how dinosaurs are the new superheroes. This does not, therefore, mean that all dinosaurs are now superheroes -- and the linked article never makes this claim, and never indicates that Cadillacs And Dinosaurs was a superhero show.
• The various Star Wars entries link to a book that refers to Jedi Knights in one line as 'superheroes' (using quotes), which doesn't exactly indicate that every Star Wars movie or television show is now a superhero show; the author was only drawing a parallel between Jedi Knights and actual superheroes (without using quotes). Seems like a deliberate misinterpretation (though in fairness, if all of shounen anime count as superheroes, plus all vampires, you can probably find someone somewhere in a published book directly calling Jedi superheroes.
• The Walking Dead links to an article that never claims that TWD, itself, is a superhero show. It's just a sloppily written headline that refers to superheroes on TV, and then lists general comic book shows with an emphasis on superheroes. (Annoyingly, at least to me, I did find an article that does call TWD a superhero show: https://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2017/06/25/the-walking-dead-is-about-superheroes-fear-the-walking-dead-is-about-people/#186d7c8a384c -- though if the definition of superhero show expands to "much, much larger than life characters surviving and [sic] impossible situation is very comic book-y ways" then the vast majority of all sci-fi/fantasy/horror television is now in the superhero genre. Who knew?)

This list seems pretty useless if it ends up with a 90% overlap with "List of speculative fiction television series". Is there really no way it can't at least be separated into categories, with shows less traditionally thought of as "superhero shows" put in a different category? (Or several categories -- would also make the page more readable.)

That said, I'm not 100% familiar with Wikipedia standards, so apologies if I've missed something important 2600:6C50:797F:FB00:5D15:DFCC:2F87:8D5 (talk) 07:11, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

Jeremiah

Jeremiah was added with this edit. I cannot find it in the source cited. I am removing it. - SummerPhD^v2.0 15:44, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

Uh, yeah. I actually confused this with a different source. So I removed Harsh Realm and Witchblade too, at least until further notice. I'm sorry.Sparkles32 (talk) 22:44, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

I found a new source for Witchblade and reposted the entry.Sparkles32 (talk) 23:27, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

American Gods

American Gods was added with this edit. The source cited does not say there are superheroes in the show. Instead, it refers to a "superhero-style shared universe" and "gods instead of superheroes". I am removing it. - SummerPhD^v2.0 15:53, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

Stranger Things

The source irrefutably does call the character a superhero. If bustle.com is a reliable source, there is no problem here that I can see. If anyone wishes to dispute the reliability of the source, we can certainly discuss that. - SummerPhD^v2.0 16:28, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

The Walking Dead, Sherlock, etc.

Presumably, these are on the list because independent reliable sources directly state that they are TV series with superheroes and the show is blue-link notable. That is all our current inclusion criteria demand (see Talk:List_of_superhero_television_series#What_belongs_here.2C_clarified.. If you find that a source does not directly state this or the source is not reliable, the show can and should be removed. If you are not satisfied with the inclusion criteria, please explain what you feel is wrong with the criteria and what should be done to fix them. - SummerPhD^v2.0 16:37, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

The problem is that there is no consideration given to the quality of the sources. "Reliable" doesn't just mean "isn't Breitbart and isn't a blog", it also means that the source has some credibility on the topic. "Somebody somewhere said so once" doesn't make something accurate. A book of baby names is not an authority on whether a character is a superhero.[7] An article whose author apparently thinks that "comic" automatically means "superhero" is not authoritative.[8] An article in which someone argues that such-and-such character is a superhero is just expressing an opinion (and probably against consensus).[9] A no-by-line clickbait article that includes Star Trek characters as superheroes is... a no-by-line clickbait article. [10] An article comparing dinosaurs to superheroes is... please, do I have to explain how broken the logic behind this is?[11] And links that don't mention anything about the character being a superhero are obviously not reliable sources.[12] Wikipedia editors are supposed to apply some sense and discretion. This is embarassing. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 23:49, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

I replaced the citation on Jonny Quest with what I think might be a better citation- https://www.cbr.com/strongest-hanna-barbera-superheroes/. I'm sorry about the last citation. It used to say the series was a superhero show, but now it doesn't.23:47, 21 April 2022 (UTC)Sparkles32 (talk)

Secrets of Isis

I removed The Secrets of Isis from the list because the series belongs to DC Comics. I hope it's okay. God bless!!!Sparkles32 (talk) 19:54, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

Blackstar

I reposted Blackstar after finding a source. I hope that's okay. God bless!!!Sparkles32 (talk) 23:40, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

A "superhero show" is one that's described as a "superhero show".

There's a whole lot of cruft on this list that's pretty obviously not "superhero" shows. A lot of have been added based on the word "superhero" being used once by someone somewhere in reference to someone who appears in it, which leads to nonsense like Star Trek being listed, because someone once filled out a list of "black superheroes" by including Uhura and Sisko, neither of whom meets any of the intuitive criteria except having distinctive costumes (which aren't distinctive in context: they're just uniforms). Which misses the rather point that Star Trek itself is simply not a superhero show by any common-sense definition. One way I know this is because Star Trek doesn't say it is. Obviously that standard could invite a lot of bad-faith editing of series articles to add that description, but you'll get some pushback if it's inappropriate, and I hope we're above that. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 00:53, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

Did you read the section above that says "what belongs here, clarified"?20:55, 2 March 2022 (UTC)Sparkles32 (talk)

Presence of Game of Thrones on this list

Could anyone please tell me why Game of Thrones is listed in this section? Pretty sure it shouldn't be there.--Thylacine24 (talk) 00:13, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

Did you read the section above "what belongs here, clarified"?23:47, 21 April 2022 (UTC)Sparkles32 (talk)