Talk:List of multilingual presidents of the United States

Obama

I agree that Obama does not warrant inclusion here. He does not have conversational fluency in any language other than English, nor does he claim to. He learns a few words or sentences here and there in order to add them to speeches to "wow" his audience. This is no more (and actually less) than what many travelers do to prepare for trips to locations in which a non-English language is spoken. I could claim to "know" Spanish (I can count to ten... learned that on Sesame Street, and know a few other words and phrases), French (studied in school, years ago, and lived in Montreal for a couple years), Russian (studied in school, years ago), Dutch (traveled to the Netherlands) and a few other languages. But in reality, I only know English. Being able to recite a few words or even ask a question does not amount to even a basic fluency. By the definition which is apparently being used here, it's likely that every single US president has been "multilingual."

Obama himself says he does not know any foreign languages. Being able to say hello and name popular foods is not speaking "conversational Indonesian". Bonjour, je t'aime les croissants. Do I speak French? No. I will change the order to put his own words first. 75.6.10.215 (talk) 10:12, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Correct French would be: "J'aime les croissants". So no, you don't speak French, but I don't think that was your point. 86.73.50.33 (talk) 18:04, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

I'd have to agree that Obama, by his own declaration, doesn't belong as a member of this article. I can cuss somebody out in several languages but that doesn't give me the credentials of having any sort of master of them. I recommend removing him completely.Bristus (talk) 18:15, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

In response to this, it is important to note that many of the accounts in this article point out most of the listed president's shortcomings in their respective languages. There are many accounts of Obama demonstrating a better knowledge of non-English languages than he claimed on the campaign trail. Yes, his fluency is arguable, but Clinton, for instance is cited as a) having studied German, b) being able to converse in it, and c) having said a German phrase in a speech or being caught on video doing so. a) holds up for Obama's knowledge of Spanish, for b), it has been cited before at least once that Obama had a conversation with the Indonesian president early in his first term in Indonesian, and c) definitely holds up for at least ASL, Hebrew, Spanish, and Indonesian. The relevant question is, should this article be only about languages presidents claim or are shown to have conversational capacities or greater in, or their knowledge of any languages beyond simple repetition of phrases at any point in their life? I personally opt for the latter, and I believe Obama warrants inclusion by that standard. Plus, he was, unlike at least Clinton, Carter, Hoover or H.W., exposed to a non-English language during the critical period of language development in adolescence (i.e. he lived in Indonesia and learned some Indonesian before age 12), which undoubtedly means he was likely fluent to a fair degree in Indonesian for some period in his life. Elynbriggen (talk) 19:17, 4 May 2013 (EST)

Here is another relevant source on Obama's claims to non-English language skills in 1997: http://www.ibtimes.com/obama-sign-language-surprise-what-other-languages-does-he-know-video-428106 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Elynbrigge (talk • contribs) 23:48, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

"foreign language"

From what I understand, there is no official language in the USA. So how is a language other than English a foreign language? The title of this article should rather be "List of Presidents of the United States who know a language other than english". Although this is stated in the first sentence, I think this should be explicit in the title. 86.73.50.33 (talk) 18:04, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

"knew a foreign language"

The inclusion criteria seem fuzzy to me - what level of competence are we talking about here, fluency, able to hold an comprehensible conversation, able to order beer and a sandwich, able to say "hello" and "goodbye"? – ukexpat (talk) 20:32, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

I simply went with if a reliable source said they knew, spoke, or read a language. As it is right now, the Presidents included could all either at least hold a conversation in the language, or read it very well in the instance of those dead languages such as Latin. かんぱい！ Scapler (talk) 22:17, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

"Knew" a forgein language is very bad wording. Had fluency in a foreign language is better. I would move it but there's not button I could find. Lord Jimbo (talk) 02:58, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

The problem with fluency is that it can mean two things as well. Even among the sources I used in the article, fluency means understanding very well in some of them, and in others, not perfect understanding, but the ability to speak it quickly and fluidly. However, it is better than the name now, and I whole-heartedly agree that the article needs a new name; I'm afraid my inspiration juices weren't flowing when I named it. かんぱい！ Scapler (talk) 17:12, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

My main problem with the article name wording is the word "knew", which implies that living presidents no longer know the languages. 67.164.61.77 (talk) 06:18, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

On that subject, while the article makes a passing reference to the issue, it might be a good idea to strike a clear distinction between being able to speak a language and being able to read it. As I recall from visiting Monticello, Jefferson could read Italian pretty well, having learned it from books, but couldn't really speak it, as he had nobody to teach him the pronunciation and listen to him speak. The table (a good idea, by the way) is currently set up in a yes-no check mark style. It might be useful to make a green check stand for read(s), writes(wrote), and speaks(spoke) fluently, a yellow check for a good command, and a red check for a conversational level. Blue might indicate reading/writing only, and brown a rudimentary understanding. Naturally, we're dealing with spin-meisters, even for the early presidents, so it may be difficult to gauge somebody's true command of a language, but one works with what one has.--Piledhigheranddeeper (talk) 12:33, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Some clues

Greek and Latin were required for admission to colleges like Harvard and Yale in the 19th century. So Taft (Yale) must have had some training in the classics.

Coolidge (Amherst College, but later) is another possibility.

Didn't West Point require some language education of Eisenhower?

I believe I remember reading that Bill Clinton learned some German -- he enjoyed the fact that Chelsea was taking it and she is said to be fluent in it. See this site. Lots of web sites say this.

Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 01:27, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

used for negotiations

The idea that Wilson or FDR conducted negotiations in German is very hard to believe. This info appears in the summary only. It's not supported by information in the article or by any citation. It's needs to be supported or removed.

Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 01:31, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

It appears I have made a mistake; somewhere in my research for this article, I came across a statement along those lines. I guess I wrote it into the lead without actually including it in the article, and now I don't know where I found it. Anyhow, I'll remove it. かんぱい！ Scapler (talk) 01:35, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Bill Clinton?

Doesn't Bill Clinton speak German? The Bulgarian Wikipedia article on him says he "has an exceptionally good knowledge of German", but no sources are cited. --Магьосник (talk) 11:10, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

If a source can be found, then it would be great to add it! かんぱい！ Scapler (talk) 16:56, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

He has been added to the list and chart now; thank you Mr. President for writing an autobiography! かんぱい！ Scapler (talk) 08:30, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Andrew Jackson & Will Harrison

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choctaw_language (which has a source by the way) both Jackson and Harrison spoke the Choctaw language. Shouldn't that be added as Native languages are as important to this page as European or Asian ones? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.125.213.201 (talk) 21:24, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

I will try to find a source for this; however, the wikipedia article cannot be used as a source itself. かんぱい！ Scapler (talk) 03:34, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

According to a number of books, Jackson did not speak Choctaw. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&tbo=1&tbs=bks:1&q=%22andrew+jackson%22+%22knew+choctaw%22&aq=f&aqi=m1&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai= Calliopejen1 (talk) 03:09, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Why does this page exist?

Seriously, no point really... Soxwon (talk) 05:56, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

What exactly do you object so strongly about this page's existence? It is useful and well referenced. かんぱい！ Scapler (talk) 13:35, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm not objecting strongly, it just seems about as useful as, for instance, a list of Presidents who can juggle, or presidents who can play the accordion. Interesting but not really needed. Soxwon (talk) 15:52, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

I think this article is important. The number of language you speak can denote how aware of the world you are. Interestingly, properly speaking anything else beyond English seems lost since Roosevelt. 86.73.50.33 (talk) 18:04, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

George W. Bush and Criticism from Left-Wing Non-Expert

A self-authored source from a political opponent whom is not an expert in Spanish (or any other language) ought to not be used to discredit the language skills of a president. No other president is so targetted for criticism and until there is an independent source that can confirm the non-expert Ivins' speculation - recalling that she is notorious for nicknaming the president 'Shrub' while holding to other insulting views - there should be no mentioning of his supposed non-fluency in a language he has been confirmed to be able to speak.

Politics should not enter into the apolitical matter of whether G.W. Bush speaks Spanish. 24.42.94.52 (talk) 03:39, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

I added another source from the Seattle P-I. It has been noted by many people that when he spoke the language in a very flawed manner. And I assure you, this is not some sort of attempt to inject politics and discredit Bush, as I am a firm Republican and Conservative. Also, note that he is not the only President whose language skills are questioned in the article; it is noted that Carter did not speak Spanish fluently, and even Jefferson receives some criticism from his political opponent. かんぱい！ Scapler (talk) 04:33, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

George H. W. Bush

I have heard before that he speaks French, although I'm having a hard time finding a source. Funnyhat (talk) 17:26, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

George Bush (père) lived in China for 14 months while he was the U.S Envoy to China. During that time he probably acquired conversational ability in Mandarin Chinese. I seem to remember hearing him utter a few phrases in Chinese during a TV interview several years ago. I don't have a source which I can cite, but this may be worth pursuing.96.236.213.217 (talk) 04:42, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

I couldn't find a source that said he could speak Chinese. かんぱい！ Scapler (talk) 22:46, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Not listed "by languages spoken"

This is a fine article to which I have referred more than once. However, the title seems completely wrong to me. If it were in fact a list "by languages spoken," it would not be chronological. It would start with a list of who spoke Dutch, then a list of who spoke English, then French, etc., and being a "list of presidents of the United States," it would include ALL the presidents, even those who spoke only English. Don't get me wrong -- I think it should stay in its current form, but the name should be changed to something like "Non-English Languages Spoken by Presidents of the United States." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Edgehawk (talk • contribs) 20:36, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

It used to be "List of Presidents of the United States who spoke a foreign language", and I can understand why someone changed it, since that title is not ideal either. Honestly, when I created it, I did not really know how to title it. But yes, this new title is actually a little inaccurate. Maybe "List of Presidents of the United States who knew a language other than English"? Quite frankly, it is not even a list of languages SPOKEN, since it includes those fluent in written languages like Latin. In fact, I am going to change it; we can discuss it, but the title should at least be accurate. かんぱい！ Scapler (talk) 23:56, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Possible article title change

This article has been plagues with a bad title from the beginning, as I simply could not for the life of me come up with an appropriate one. However, someone at the AfD mentioned List of multilingual Presidents of the United States, and this strikes me as the best suggestion thus far. Would anyone oppose changing the article to this title? かんぱい！ Scapler (talk) 19:04, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

John Quincy Adams and James Buchanan

John Quincy Adams and James Buchanan both were ambassadors to Russia - did they speak Russian? John Quincy Adams was ambassador to Prussia, too. He translated Martin Wieland's "Oberon", so his German should be considered as fluently in writing and speaking. Source: William A. Colwell, The First English Translation of Wieland's Oberon, in: PMLA Vol. 57, No. 2 1942. --134.2.240.218 (talk) 21:01, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

I will add the German part to John Quincy; however, I have seen multiple sources that say that he never learned Russian. He was sent as ambassador to Russia because he spoke French and not Russian in fact. Oddly enough, the Russian court never used the Russian language; the official language of the Czarina's diplomacy was French. かんぱい！ Scapler (talk) 23:24, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Correct, in the 18th to mid 19th century the language of the Russian court and noble class was French. Reportedly, before Pushkin some Russian nobles could barely speak Russian, having been raised in a Francophone environment from birth. So a diplomat stationed in Russia at the time would have no need of Russian. Highly doubtful Adams and Buchanan knew any. 95.132.51.220 (talk) 14:54, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

JFK

Did Kennedy speak some French? Some references exist online, but I couldn't find a recording of him speaking it. Does anybody have a source? - Eric (talk) 20:32, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

I'm from Quebec, and have a vague memory of an anecdote my father told me 30 years ago of Kennedy visiting Quebec and speaking French. Prime Mininister Diefenbaker was present at the speach, and my father found it ironic that the president of the US could speak better French than the prime minister of Canada. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AlexPlante (talk • contribs) 15:50, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Didn't Kennedy deliver a speech that included German phrases? Spark (talk) 00:35, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

John Adams

The source to John Adams' translating biblical books from Hebrew and Greek is a book written by Benjamin Franklin about a totally different John Adams, a clergyman who died when the future president was five years old. See http://onthemainline.blogspot.com/2012/06/we-dont-even-know-if-other-john-adams.html#comment-form — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.22.214.215 (talk) 19:48, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

• I removed those references because, indeed, the book is about John Adams (poet), and it is even titled The Other John Adams, 1705-1740. (And, appropriately, the book was written by Benjamin Franklin V, not Benjamin Franklin.) --Metropolitan90 (talk) 09:33, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Greek Language

The article asserts that 9 U.S presidents had some competence in the Greek language. I assume that refers to Ancient Greek. If so, the link should direct to 'Ancient Greek language'. Mrodowicz (talk) 08:55, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Why do you assume it means Ancient Greek. I'm not sure of your reasoning here.?--Dmol (talk) 10:47, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Well, think about it - what languages where commonly taught amongst the intelligentsia in the 19th & early 20th centuries in higher educational institutions in Western countries - Latin (13 US Presidents) & Classical Greek (presumably 9 US Presidents). Modern Greek, is not generally considered to be a popular or especially useful language (no offence to Greeks!). I certainly wouldn't expect 9 US presidents to be able to speak modern Greek compared to only to 7 for French, 5 for German, 3 for Spanish & 2 for Italian, all much more important and widespread languages in the modern world than modern Greek. --Mrodowicz (talk) 10:15, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

It is still possible to study Ancient Greek in addition to Latin in many European schools, especially in universities and "elite" high schools/gymnasiums. In fact, you have to study Latin, Ancient Hebrew and Ancient Greek if you wish to earn a theological degree in Finland and be ordained as a priest. 19th-century university-educated US Presidents most certainly learned Ancient Greek. JJohannes (talk) 00:46, 9 November 2016 (UTC)

Obama

Isn't Obama conversant in Indonesian from his childhood years there? jengod (talk) 06:46, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

I thought so too, but see the thread at the top of this page. Aɴɢʀ (talk) 10:39, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

What about George Washington?

I find it strange that he is not included, even just to mention that he was monolingual if he were. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.245.225.130 (talk) 05:19, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

this indicates Gen. Washington was a monoglot. Haven't checked but it's probable that like most POTUSes before TR he had some exposure to latin and possibly greek. He was a born gentleman but not a scowler. 98.4.124.117 (talk) 21:32, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

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Obama

For what it's worth, the section blanking by 2400:413d:9238:4b00:6016:216f:4eb5:a787 seems perfectly OK by me. This is, after all, an article about multilingual presidents. The only benefit for including this section is to demonstrate that Obama himself claims to be monolingual. Here is the single sentence from the deleted ===Barak Obama=== section:

Barack Obama admitted he only speaks English: "I don't speak a foreign language. It's embarrassing!"

References

I have copied this here for the benefit of future editors who may be thinking about including Obama as a speaker of the Indonesian language, as was shown earlier this year. YBG (talk) 04:33, 11 August 2018 (UTC) When he was in Jakarta as President, Obama spoke on camera to the crowd a few Bahasa phrases but with an American accent inter-sped with English.

Trump

Fluency in English? Trump has problems speaking and typing in English and has poorer annunciation than George W. It's also been claimed by many in the media and aides, that he has a child's ability of reading and writing in his native English. (his mother was a native Gaelic speaker).

Table formatting and standards

The table charting the presidents and their languages is a useful visual presentation, but I am uncertain what standards are used in populating it. For example, I just changed the row for Jefferson because it indicated he was "fluent" in Greek and Spanish, while the source cited (and now, following my edits, the article's text) stated that he could read these languages but perhaps not speak them. I therefore changed the highlighting to the yellow used for "Partial" (via the {{Some}} template), but I changed the label to say "Reading only" because it seems incorrect to say someone is "fluent" in a language in which he cannot hold a conversation. Of course, it wouldn't surprise me if other presidents marked as "fluent," particularly early presidents who claimed knowledge of Greek or Latin, were similarly unable to speak at any length.

That said, for most of the entries here, it's not like we have much objective proof like test scores or even videos, so we're sort of just synthesizing what we can from what the individual said or what was said about him. In that respect, perhaps the "Fluent"/"Partial" distinction is the best we can do in a quick-reference visual space like a table. But, to the extent other presidents are documented as (likely) being specifically limited in some meaningful way (like "could read but not speak" or "could speak but not read"), I would suggest that the table should reflect that fact, and propose formatting as I did for Jefferson (using the yellow rather than green background, and a very brief explanation like "reading only"). I probably would not add specific limitations if the person is already listed as "Partial" - for example, if we had sources to clearly say that Obama could not read/write Indonesian, I still wouldn't suggest changing his entry in the table, because "Partial" already indicates that he has something other than complete proficiency. --EightYearBreak (talk) 22:05, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

Thomas Jefferson and the German language?

The Thomas Jefferson article (Thomas_Jefferson#Linguistics) mentioned that Jefferson could speak, read, and write in German, yet there's no mention of this in this article (and there's no source available in the Jefferson article). This means one of the two articles needs adjustment, but which one is it? 2A02:A03F:6BC9:A400:DDB:3E1:8D66:B4EB (talk) 00:26, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

"Not counting Hebrew"

The following sentence (IN THE LEAD!!!) creates phony sensationalism: they are the only presidents to speak any Asian languages, not counting Hebrew. There is absolutely no reason not to count Hebrew among all the other Asian languages. Sorry but such statements make Wikipedia look stupid! gidonb (talk) 23:01, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

Fixed. gidonb (talk) 12:57, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

Fluency

I have a problem with the characterization of various Presidents as "fluent" in Latin, Ancient Greek, and Biblical Hebrew. If by "fluency" we mean the ability to speak a language fluently, it is highly unlikely that any of them was fluent in Ancient Greek. Ancient Greek is not and was not at any time in the past 300 years taught as a spoken language in the United States. Ability in Greek almost certainly meant the ability to read and, in some cases, to compose, in Greek, but not to converse or even to understand spoken Greek. The same is true of Hebrew. Learning Hebrew in the United States and Europe meant learning to read Biblical Hebrew. Outside of the Jewish community, it generally did not even include learning to compose in Hebrew beyond a very elementary level. It is highly unlikely that any US President learned spoken Hebrew. Learning Latin did include learning to compose in Latin, but outside of Catholic seminaries and the occasional church high school, rarely meant learning to converse in Latin. Very few of the characterizations of Presidents as "fluent" in these languages are likely to be valid.Bill (talk) 00:38, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

Joe Biden

There are only two statements on him, the first of which says he does not know any other language. This alone should be sufficient to remove from this article. The other statement is a relatively weak fact that doesn’t show fluency by any means. Until other supporting information is provided, I believe this should be removed.

The debate on fluency in this article seems to be ongoing, but I think we can draw the line to at least having a) studied it/grew up with it, and b) demonstrated it, preferably on more than one occasion. So far the section on Joe Biden leaves much to be desired here. 2600:1700:7B18:E470:359D:D8CC:71D3:FBB3 (talk) 14:40, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

Eisenhower has been the subject independance 1776~1976 Whole silver dollar and a 1976 silver dollar coins and are rarely mentioned or heard of as being in the public interest as he was actually a President of the United States and the particular year that the United States actually had 3 presidents during a particular term or possibly even a year in which I think bringing a greater historical significance to his predecessor and the history and legacy of JFK or even Carter. Making the the coin part of history and rare find and making it a must have for the lover of rare coins , currency and unique items from the United States Treasury and Mint stamps (clad 1) grading at a mere glance collections 2601:642:100:94D0:B135:C92B:D49:F255 (talk) 23:51, 12 July 2023 (UTC)