Talk:List of massacres in Great Britain

Glencoe

Describing the Glencoe massacre as "part of the Jacobite risings" strikes me as unfaithful to the historical reality. It did indeed occur in the aftermath of those risings; its perpetrators did indeed draw their excuse (contrary to law) from the risings. It remains that it was part of a general conflict in Scotland (of which the Jacobite risings can indeed be considered a part) between the lowland authorities (of the cities) and the highland clans.

The Jacobite uprising was over well before the massacre happened, the relevant chief had properly obtained his pardon and the residents of Glencoe justly expected to be free of any taint from the uprising. Those who conspired to perpetrate the massacre knew all this and wilfully constructed an excuse to perpetrate an atrocity that flew in the face of justice. They did so as part of a wider conflict – pre-dating the Jacobite risings and lasting until well after the corruptly procured Act of Union – and it would be better to characterise it in terms that separate it from the uprising it used as pretext.

I suggest "In the aftermath of the Jacobite Risings" as a more historically factual characterisation. Eddy, 84.215.6.188 (talk) 20:02, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Content

As this is a List of massacres in the United Kingdom by definition anything prior to the formation of the United Kingdom cannot be included. Jim Sweeney (talk) 23:08, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

We should note in the heading "United Kingdom and its predecessors." Other similar lists note this. This way, it would be inclusive of all massacres in any land that is presently a part of UK (England, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales). That is the way it was before. Shaliya waya (talk) 23:53, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

A better heading would be British Isles, which would include Eire. Then there is the problem that its completely unreferenced. Jim Sweeney (talk) 09:14, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

I have been in the process of creating (and completing to the best of my ability) lists of massacres for each country, all as a solution for the page List of massacres which had grown to be overly lengthy, disorganized, and unmanageable. The way I've been doing it so far is to include all the massacres that took place in no-longer existent countries in the list for the country where that same location is today, and to indicate that the list includes the predecessors. This is a tricky issue because many borders have changed, and I am amenable to other options.

If you want to create a separate page listing the British Isles, that would be fine with me. You seem to be more familiar with them than me, As for the referencing, I simply have pulled the article titles and rudimentary details from the articles themselves, and I have not concentrated my efforts on copy-pasting sources, but if you would like to help, you could go to each of those articles and lift the sources that are there, or go ahead and find your own. Shaliya waya (talk) 01:06, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

I would not be ok with lumping in Ireland with Great Britain, there is no reason for it, the massacres which happened in Ireland are nearly all of a different culture an history than the ones in GB. I think it makes most sense to do it by geography rather than polity. It makes more sense to put all the Irish ones together, north and south, as they pertain to basically the same conflict (the native Irish versus the British state with sectarian overtones) while the ones in GB or certainly in England and Scotland relate to other conflicts or issues. I am officially proposing that we seperate it into GB massacres and Ireland massacres, including north and south. - 86.42.253.252 (talk) 23:05, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Ulster Massacres

What's the objection? See above.--Flexdream (talk) 22:46, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

They don't appear to meet the inclusion criteria, as I've pointed out more than once. So you know what the objection is..... 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 06:53, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

It does meet the inclusion criteria.--Flexdream (talk) 09:23, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Since you apparently don't even know what the inclusion criteria are, you have no business making such a sweeping statement. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 09:26, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Criteria of nature and location are in the article.--Flexdream (talk) 14:32, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

You'll find the criteria at talk page of the parent article - Talk:List of massacres. So stop adding ones which don't mean the existing criteria, or you're welcome to try and get consensus to change the criteria. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 19:40, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

I didn't re-edit so as to avoid an edit war, but the Ulster Massacres, either collectively or individually clearly do meet the criteria for inclusion, as listed in Talk:List of massacres. Can we speedily come to consensus on this so this entry can be replaced. Also, your tone is accusatory and unhelpful. Assume good faith. - 86.42.253.252 (talk) 23:26, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Content mark 2

I deleted a bunch of entries not commonly considered massacres, the blitzes, serial killers and terrorist bombings, please come here to build consensus or put them back in with a source. Also, I would like to get a consensus on whether or not the Omagh bombing is considered a massacre, I personally think it is and will put it back in if there is no feedback on the issue. - 86.42.253.252 (talk) 23:28, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Strange

This seems a very arbitrary grouping, seeing as the current UK boundaries aren't even a century old. Wouldn't it make more sense to lose those before '22, or else exclude the Irish ones? Gob Lofa (talk) 12:40, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

I agree with you that this is arbitrary, especially for events that happened across Ireland both North and South. I'd agree with your suggestion or alternatives like having all the British Isles, or separate for Britain and Ireland.--Flexdream (talk) 21:57, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Any of these options is good for me. Gob Lofa (talk) 02:45, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

I see from above that similar discussion has taken place before. Let's see what any others think. Do you have a preference? The easiest change would be to retitle this article 'Great Britain and Ireland' but I don't have a preference.--Flexdream (talk) 00:36, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

I say we move this to List of massacres in Great Britain and remove the Irish ones. We already have a List of massacres in Ireland. Gob Lofa (talk) 23:24, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

I would suggest to limit the article List of massacres in Ireland and rename and rework it to List of massacres in the Republic of Ireland. That will set both articles along present country borders. The Banner talk 00:04, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

I'd be fine with that if most of the massacres hadn't taken place before those borders existed. As they did, I feel it's better to use geographical rather than (current) political units. Gob Lofa (talk) 01:45, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Gob Lofa, I think separate lists for Great Britain and Ireland(island of) would be better. Otherwise a single list for Great Britain and Ireland would also work. I think dividing Northern and Southern Ireland doesn't work.--Flexdream (talk) 08:04, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Seeing how many people have difficulties with the concept of the island of Ireland vs the two states on it, I have to fear that the concept of the island Britain will be too much for them to grasp. The Banner talk 10:54, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

List inclusion

The standard on other lists of this nature is to require reliable sources which commonly refer to the event as a massacre. As this does not apply in most cases, I'm going to remove several entries which are not "commonly called massacre" (as the list inclusion asks for.) Valenciano (talk) 11:02, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

Suggest a minimum of say 20 or 30 deaths to count as a massacre. ----Ehrenkater (talk) 19:22, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

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Errors

In the injuries and deaths column I noticed that some incidents list say 11 injured and 12 killed. That is obviously impossible unless one person died of heart attack, but that would still probably constitute an injury.

I took it to mean each person was only counted in one category or the other. If 2 people were stabbed in the same incident, 1 died of their injuries and 1 recovered the article would list 1 killed, 1 injured. 86.130.159.36 (talk) 09:39, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Clarity and consistency: proposed move

This article appears to be inconsistent with the rest of Wikipedia. The article is included in the category 'Lists of massacres by country', though Great Britain isn't a country. It is also included in three UK lists, which is OK, considering Great Britain is part of the United Kingdom. However, it leads to confusion when considering that not all of the island of Ireland is a part of the UK: this article is in the category 'Lists of disasters in the United Kingdom', for example. Is the equivalent article 'List of massacres in Ireland' also included in that category? It would be wrong to do so, as the Republic of Ireland is no longer part of the UK. However, Northern Ireland is indeed a part of the UK, so it should be included in that category for that reason. It's more confusing than it should be.

The solution is to treat this article the same as those of the countries listed for similar articles: rename it to List of massacres in the United Kingdom.

All massacres in the territory of the UK as it currently exists, should be included in the article. This is how it is done in other articles (see Italy, Greece, Germany etc and, for a slight variation, Russia).

This would mean that all massacres that have taken place in the two islands, all would be listed up until 1922. After that, any massacres perpetrated in the Republic of Ireland would be excluded, obviously, as that territory became another country at that point.

Alternatively, following the example set by the Russia and USSR articles, list everything from the creation of the unions either in 1707 or 1801 and create other articles per kingdom prior to that time. --2A00:23C4:581:A700:CDCC:8A27:9182:F42C (talk) 19:51, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

It seems that a lot of articles throughout Wikipedia that deal with the UK are inconsistent. They are certainly neither logical nor factual. Rather, they appear to be appeasement to minority (and radical fringe) sensibility for the most part. Take, for example, even the use of the term "Northern Irish". Is there a category for Category:Northern Irish actors? Nope. There is simply a redirect to a category on "Actors from Northern Ireland". Of course, as anyone will tell you, a person or thing from Northern Ireland is Northern Irish. In the same way as a person or thing from England is English, a person or thing from Scotland is Scottish (or a Scot), a person or thing from Poland is Polish, a person or thing from Spain is Spanish, a person or thing from the UK is British, a person or thing from the Netherlands is Dutch, a person or thing from France is French. These are natural demonyms.

There is no such article here on Northern Irish people as there is with Scottish people, Welsh people, or English people etc. However, I digress!

You are absolutely correct in your suggestion that the UK should be treated the same as Italy. There is absolutely no reason it should ne dealt with any differently. In fact, considering the shared history and current political boundaries, it is actually confusing. It may even lead people to think that the island of Great Britain is a country and that the island of Ireland is a country! While some may wish that were the case, or some other variation of political boundaries, it doesn't represent fact. An encyclopaedia is supposed to represent fact, I would have thought. The fact is that the Republic of Ireland is a very new country. The UK, from which it split, is a little older. --82.21.97.70 (talk) 01:15, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

Hexham Riot

In 1761, (May or June IIRR), around 50 people were shot dead and over 300 injured when militia open fire into a crowd of protesters in Hexham, Northumberland. I've never edited Wikipedia before, so I'd like to ask the more experienced people here if you think this would make an appropriate addition to the list? 157.97.95.198 (talk) 02:50, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

Redirects to this page

I have nominated List of massacres in the United Kingdom and List of massacres in Great Britain and Northern Ireland, both of which currently redirect here, for discussion at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 March 12#List of massacres in the United Kingdom. Please leave your comments there to keep discussion in one place. Thryduulf (talk) 05:19, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

The White House Farm shootings

The White House Farm shootings, committed on the night of the 6th./7th. August 1985, was technically a firearms massacre: five killed. Jeremy Bamber was convicted of five murders in October 1986 at Chelmsford Crown Court. That could be added to the list.