Talk:List of major perpetrators of the Holocaust/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions about List of major perpetrators of the Holocaust. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Non-free images

Non-free images have been removed because they fail WP:NFCC and WP:NFLISTS; in fact most have no fair-use rationale, a requirement for NFCC, for this use and likely one cannot be made that would justify their use in anything other than their own biographies. ww2censor (talk) 16:43, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

All images I removed are non-free images and none have public domain copyright licences. If you dispute the removal of any of the non-free images bring them to Wikipedia:Non-free content review for a wider community view. ww2censor (talk) 04:04, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

I see your point, but some of these were mistagged in the first place. Right off the bat the photos of Eichmann, Gluecks and Stangl are in the public domain and should have the appropriate tag slapped on them. For instance, Stangl's photograph was published for people to identify him as a wanted fugitive during the manhunt for him.Hoops gza (talk) 04:12, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

If specific images can in fact be verified as being in the public domain, then you should change them, but please be sure to provide proper sources so the copyright may be checked. Good luck. ww2censor (talk) 04:29, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

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Amon Goeth

How in the world can this guy Amon Goeth not be included on your list of Holocaust perpetrators? This is the person Ralph Fiennes was portraying in Schindler's List. OMG - this is a HUGE oversight. There is a documentary called "Inheritance" about his daughter's struggle with that history. Here is a short excerpt: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQrq4ljb48g

Please add him, as I could not find him. Maybe I missed something? --Obenritter (talk) 00:25, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

He can be added; although, I would place him below some of the more infamous camp commanders. Kierzek (talk) 14:30, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I have added him, below Hering. Wow, did not realize that he was so young. - Hoops gza (talk) 16:12, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for doing the work, Hoops. Kierzek (talk) 17:00, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Glad to be of help. - Hoops gza (talk) 21:05, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Ferenc Szálasi, Albert Speer

Warsaw Ghetto Uprising - the other 3 Nazi commanders.

Chełmno extermination camp commanders.

Erich von dem Bach-Zelewski, Franz Kutschera

René Bousquet and other Vel' d'Hiv Roundup executors

Dieter Wisliceny, de:Anton Brunner (Kriegsverbrecher)

Erich Koch, Friedrich Jeckeln

Jozef Tiso

Xx236 (talk) 06:30, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

This is only for listing of the "major" perpetrators, not all (and there were many), so that must be kept in mind. Kierzek (talk) 13:44, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

I keep in mind, unfortunately the authors don't. They have selected several death camps to be major, why?Xx236 (talk) 05:47, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

Appropriate use of a sortable table

Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Tables says that "If a list is simple, it is generally better to use one of the standard Wikipedia list formats instead of a table. Lists are easier to maintain than tables, and are often easier to read." – Alas, the problem with this "stand alone list" is that the columns in it are unsortable against the very basic concept of what constitutes Sortable tables. For example, the photos are not sortable; the "Role" and the "Fate" columns are sortable by letters of the alphabet: ABC (i.e. Arrested, Believed, Committed) which makes no sense. Some of the rows have pictures others don't; some have very long commentary sections others just a couple of words, creating huge gaps in layout every time. The table does no properly fit on a standard size monitor. One of the possible half-way solutions would be to introduce ! scope="col" class="unsortable" | Unsortable for all unsortable rows. Another solution would be to reduce the number of columns by combining supplementary data; for example, the age category might be useful for some viewer-researcher, separate from alphabetical listing of names, but all additional CSS functions are completely peripheral. Poeticbent talk 03:04, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

If the list/table can be adjusted to fit better or view better that would be a good thing for readers. The reason why some have photos and other do not has to do with non-free photos; see mention in section on this page above. As for length of description, the fact is some "major" perpetrators demand more information to be stated than others. Kierzek (talk) 13:42, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

Commandant of Treblinka

Treblinka is a village.Xx236 (talk) 05:52, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

In this page it is used to refer to the former extermination camp that once stood there, where up to 900.000 to 1 million people died. Transformers2000 (talk) 14:38, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

<ref> [[1]] <ref> Transformers2000 (talk) 05:21, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

This is a list of major perpetrators of The Holocaust.

According to whom?Xx236 (talk) 11:39, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

WP:RS historians. Kierzek (talk) 13:27, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

Kierzek how is Ante Pavelić not a major perpetrator? He was instrumental in facilitating the holocaust across the NDH and also the highest ranking collaborator in the NDH was he not? ThreatMatrix (talk) 07:54, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

He is on the list. However, to be frank, he does not rate to be where he was originally placed. He was not involved in policy, planning, commanding and/or coordinating the departments or branches of personnel or transportation (like Eichmann, for example) of Nazi Germany. Pavelić was only involved in one area/country, the NDH government, a fascist Nazi puppet state, which cooperated with Nazi Germany in the Holocaust. Jews and Roma were deported and murdered, yes, but the numbers are not nearly as high as others that go into the millions (NDH numbers: 30,000 Croatian Jews and 30,000 Roma were killed during the NDH, including between 77,000–99,000 Serbs, Bosniaks, Croats, Jews and Roma killed in the Jasenovac concentration camp; other numbers/estimates: Between only 31,000 of the 40,000 Jews and almost all of the 25,000—40,000 Roma were killed in the Independent State of Croatia by the Ustaše and their Axis allies). Also, more of the killing had to do with Pavelić and the NDH own protocol of "ethic cleansing" of genocidal crimes and murder (Serbs, Bosniaks, Croats) committed in the NDH (example: 172,000 and 290,000 Serbs), which is not the same as the Holocaust. Kierzek (talk) 15:31, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

Friedrich Boßhammer

Would Friedrich Boßhammer qualify to be added to the list? He was sentenced to life in prison for his involvement in the deportation of 3,300 Italian Jews to Auschwitz. Turismond (talk) 08:39, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

Certainly the man is a war criminal and should be mentioned in relevant articles. And I see you have been doing some good work as to German massacres and killings during the war, in articles herein. With that said, as to this man I don't believe he should be included. I know it may sound ironic and I mean no disrespect, but he is not highly placed on the scale, so to speak of the known infamous murders for this article. I do welcome opinions from other editors. Kierzek (talk) 13:23, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

Thank you Kierzek for your reply and also for addressing my question on Allgemeine SS. In regards to Boßhammer, I asked because his predecessor in Italy, Theodor Dannecker, is listed here, also for his role in the Balkans, not Italy, and Boßhammer replaced Dannecker because the latter was seen as inefficient in Italy. You are right, in the over all picture of the Holocaust Boßhammer's part was small but, when looking at the Italian situation he was still responsible for almost 50% of the Italian Jews that were murdered. The Holocaust in Italy is not very well covered on Wikipedia yet, as evident by the fact that it is only a redirect page at this point. I would like to expand the Boßhammer article some more, time permitting, and this may shed some more light on how small or big a role he really played. Turismond (talk) 22:29, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

May have to re-visit the query then after you are done with his article expansion. Kierzek (talk) 17:48, 22 September 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 04:06, 11 October 2018 (UTC)

Free edit or approval by page creator needed?

I understand the the list of Major perpetrators of the Holocaust got a bit too long, but before I added additional perpetrators (the last of the original list being Maria Mandel, though I have moved some of those to different sections, doctors who conducted human medical experimentations on inmates for a a period of time to a certain extermination camp, example Auschwitz, to be placed to the section where Mengele,Clauberg were placed and etc).

Though I don't really know if a person who wants to contribute on this page can do it freerly or it needs the approval of the one who created the list in the first place? Or has it to be disscussed on a certain talk page? I'm just asking out of curiosity, since a few hours ago I've added a deputy commandant of Treblinka, Karl Pötzinger, that wasn't on the list, and then it got deleted.

If it is voted that edits should be disscused between people that are familiar or specialized in this kind of domain, we need a steady talk page that has to be checked at least twice a day I'd say (just an example), so that it won't take it too long neither too fast. Transformers2000 (talk) 21:03, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

See my response above. On Wikipedia, if any edit is disputed, the question of whether it should be "approved" or not is determined by a WP:consensus of editors discussing it on ehte article talk page. You don;t have to ask the creator of the article, and you certainly don;t have to ask me, but if your edit is disputed you must get a consensus to restore it to the article. Please read WP:BRD. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:57, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Goebbels

Should Goebbels really be on this list? I can't recall any direct connection (as opposed to obvious complicity) between Goebbels and the Holocaust. What am I forgetting or missing? Beyond My Ken (talk) 09:43, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Joseph Goebbles, Reich Minister of Enlighment and Peopaganda and one of the closest individuals inHitler's inner circle and arguably one of the most, if not, the most loyal to Hitler.

He is also imfamous not only for his loyalty towards Hitler, but also for his deep anti-semitism where advocated for the Holocaust.

He held powerful positions in the Reich and his speeches encouraged the intiation of a 'end for the jewish nation'. Transformers2000 (talk) 10:48, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

I know that an't be considered definite evidence to incriminate him of being a major Holocaust perpetrator, but this I know.

Being one of the most loyal individuals to Hitler he obtained powerful positions within the Reich, and to do so, he also advocated for the Holocaust.

In his speeches there were always anti-semitic statements, and many people were constantly beliving that he was trying to fight for a 'good cause'.

Also, being the Reich Minister of Enlighment and Propaganda he held control over news station, radio stations, newspapers etc., on all aspects on German life. The constant propaganda against the Jews and the other 'undesirebels' motivated people to join in the Einsatzgruppen that killed millions in Easter Europe. Transformers2000 (talk) 11:15, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

this can't be Transformers2000 (talk) 11:16, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Yes, I am very aware of what Goebbels did, please don't talk to me as if I know nothing about Nazi Germany.
All (or at least most) of the things you say about Goebbels are true, and it's unlikely that he didn;t know about the Holocaust, but none of it has absolutely anything to do with whether he was a "major perpetrator" of the Holocaust or not. "Perpetrator" means that he did something concrete to further the Holocaust, and being the regime's propagandist is just not enough of a connection. Neither can "Loyalty to Hitler" be a determination of whether a person was a "major perpetrator of the Holocaust. If it was, all of Hitler's personal secretaries would be on the list, as would Eva Braun and Heinrich Hoffman and Arno Breker.
This points out a mjaor problem. Ypu've been a primary contrributor to this list, but your standards for who to include indicate that you have an extremely low bar for who is a "major perpetrator". You seem to feel that anyone who had even the remotest connection to the killings should be on the list, and that just cannot be, as it them becomes simply a list of people involved inthe Holocause, which is not its intention.
Back to Goebbels - unless you can provide a citation from a reliable source to show that Goebbels was a "major perpetrator", I intend to remove him from the article, and I will be doing the same for others as I have time to do so. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:38, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Well, actually yeah, you are right about me on this one and I do want and I will fix this issue. Yes, before I've added new perletrator I have conducted serious research on them before adding new perpetrators on the list (yes, there were some fuctionaries were added out of mistake, for example Heinrich Lohse, who was the leader of the occupied Baltic States was added by me judjing by the fact that on the territory he led the Einsatzgruppen carried out genocide I considered him to be a main perpetrator, though he was classified as a fuctionary).

When speaking about Goebbles, well, a part of me approaches the 'emotional segment', but it doesn't matter now.

Yes, Goebbles was not a direct participant of the Holocaust nor a key figure in the implementation of the Final Solution, though his actions were seriously bad, it doesn't make him a major perpetrator.

I think when he was added on the original list he was put there due to being a high-ranking Nazi party member.

The same goes to Rudolph Hess, deputy to Hitler. He was at first a high-ranking Nazi Party member but because of the rise of Bormann he lost power greatly. In 1941 he fled to the UK to try and negotiate a peace treaty, but was arrested by the British. After the war, during the first Nuremberg Trial he was convicted of crimes against peace and sentenced to life imprisonment (although he was indicted of war crimes and crimes against humanity, but wasn't convicted on those charges).

I'm afraid I don't have the arguments you seek from me to demonstrate that he was a major perpetrator. You may delete him. Transformers2000 (talk) 21:05, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Hess was given as an example of someone that was a at some point one of the closest in Hitler's inner circle, like Goebbles. But the problem is both can't be considered key figures in the Holocaust. Transformers2000 (talk) 21:07, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Back to me. See, when I first started reading about the terrifying atrocities commited by the Einsatzgruppen when I watched a documentary on Netflix about them (Einsatzgruppen : The detachaments of death' ') I entered in this so called' shocked state' and it kind of affected my judgement when writing responses against some Holocaust deniers and I started to not make a difference between facts and logic and morality.

I apologize for causing this issue at first. I promise I will research correctly and think clearly twice before adding or writing something. Transformers2000 (talk) 21:12, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

He is removed. Transformers2000 (talk) 11:22, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

Thank you. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:15, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

Robert Wagner

I decided to check a bit on some indivuduals that were not on the list. Since Goebbles will be most probably deleted from the list, I ended up on Robert Wagner, Gauleiter of Baden and Head of Civil Goverment in Alsace.

After checking on other sources it was said that during his tenure as Gauleiter of Baden, the district became the first to 'clear' the Jewish population there. During his leadeship over Alsace, only 800 of the 4,464 Jews survived after the war.

Now, certainly sometime in the future others will come and accuse me of not caring about the lives that he had taken, but he cannot be considered a major perpetrator because of the small number of victims.

Should he removed from the list or should he remain? From what I remember Kierzek added him first and I would like to know what made him add Wagner on the list, if it is possible of course. Transformers2000 (talk) 21:33, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

I did not add him; other editors have added people to the list along the way. I believe he should be removed. Not a "major", key player, so to speak, but a functionary of the Nazi Party. Kierzek (talk) 14:12, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

OK. In this case I will remove him from the list. Transformers2000 (talk) 15:01, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Joachim Hamann

Responsible for the creation of the Rollkommando Hamann, a small mobile unit that commited mass murder in the Baltic States against Lithuanian Jews. Between July-October 1941 at least 60,000 Jews were massacred by the unit Hamann created and commanded.

Karl Jäger, who was Hamann's superior and a commander in the Einsatzgruppen noted the killing in the imfamous Jäger Report.

I propose to have him added on the list, and I am asking for the consesus of other editors so that there won't be any issues. Transformers2000 (talk) 21:44, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree with this addition, but I'll need to see a citation from a reliable source which confirms the facts listed above. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:14, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

Wikipedidia:CITE Rollkommando Hamann (Lithuanian: skrajojantis būrys) was a small mobile unit that committed mass murders of Lithuanian Jews in the countryside in July–October 1941,[1] with a death toll of at least 60,000 Jews.[2] The unit was also responsible for many murders in Latvia from July through August, 1941. At the end of 1941 the destruction of Lithuanian Jewry was effectively accomplished by the Rollkommando in the countryside, by the Ypatingasis būrys in the Ponary massacre, and by the Tautinio Darbo Apsaugos Batalionas in the Ninth Fort in Kaunas. In about six months an estimated 80% of all Lithuanian Jews were killed.[3] The remaining few were spared for use as a labor force and concentrated in urban ghettos, mainly the Vilna and Kaunas Ghettos

Read more: Rollkommando Hamann | Revolvy Transformers2000 (talk) 05:35, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but it is quite hard for me to understand how to cite a source when the only thing avalible is my phone. Transformers2000 (talk) 05:36, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

Wikipedia:CITE https://www.revolvy.com/page/Rollkommando-Hamann?

Rollkommando Hamann (Lithuanian: skrajojantis būrys) was a small mobile unit that committed mass murders of Lithuanian Jews in the countryside in July–October 1941, with a death toll of at least 60,000 Jews.The unit was also responsible for many murders in Latvia from July through August, 1941. At the end of 1941 the destruction of Lithuanian Jewry was effectively accomplished by the Rollkommando in the countryside, by the Ypatingasis būrys in the Ponary massacre, and by the Tautinio Darbo Apsaugos Batalionas in the Ninth Fort in Kaunas. In about six months an estimated 80% of all Lithuanian Jews were killed. The remaining few were spared for use as a labor force. Transformers2000 (talk) 05:40, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

Wikipedia:CITE Joachim Hamann (18 May 1913 in Kiel – 13 July 1945) was an officer of the Einsatzkommando 3, a killing unit of Einsatzgruppe A, responsible for thousands of Jewish deaths in Lithuania. Hamann organized and commanded Rollkommando Hamann, a small mobile killing unit composed of 8–10 Germans and several dozens of local Lithuanian collaborators.

Transformers2000 (talk) 05:43, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

WP:CITE https://www.revolvy.com/page/Joachim-ixzz5y9e3QNNl Transformers2000 (talk) 05:44, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

WP:CITE https://www.revolvy.com/page/Joachim-Hamann

Transformers2000 (talk) 05:46, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

The Revolovy page is a copy of the Wikipedia article, so is not a relioable source. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:27, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

Mate, how is he supposed to find a reliable source if there is not reliable source?! (talking about Joachim Hamann and Albert Forster). The only sources I myself found on Joachim Hamann were Revolvly and Wikipedia. Ciobanu Oilor (talk) 06:45, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

If he can't find a reliable source that says that Hamann or Foster were major perpetrators of the Holocaust, then he's out of luck, their names cannot be added to this list. In point of fact every name on the list should be supported by a citation by a reliable source, but none of them are. I'm still deciding what, exactly, to do about that, but in the meantime, anyone added without proper support will be deleted, per WP:V: "All material in Wikipedia mainspace, including everything in articles, lists and captions, must be verifiable. All quotations, and any material whose verifiability has been challenged or is likely to be challenged, must include an inline citation that directly supports the material. Any material that needs a source but does not have one may be removed." (emphasis added) Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:53, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

I apologize for bothering you Ken, I sincerely didn't mean it. I am just new on Wikipedia and it took some time to familiarize with the policies of the site.

I have researched again and here is a citation that can incriminate Hamann of being a major perpetrator, and thus ending this awkward situation.

Wikipedia:CITE http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2012/08/the-jager-report-3.html?m=1

The killings between June 27 and 14 August 1941 were probably carried out by Lithuanian nationalists on their own initiative with the consent of Einsatzkommando 3. The large massacre on 15 and 16 August, on the other hand, was a carefully planned and executed operation, which wiped out all Jews and other undesirables still alive in Rokiskis at that time. Jäger pointed out this operation as an example of EK 3’s modus operandi in rural Lithuania, as follows: The implementation of such activities is primarily a question of organization. The decision to systematically make every district free of Jews necessitated an exhaustive preparation of each individual operation and reconnaissance of the prevailing circumstances in the applicable district. The Jews had to be assembled at one or several locations. Depending on the number, a place for the required pits had to be found and the pits dug. The marching route from the assembly place to the pits amounted on average to 4 to 5 kilometers. The Jews were transported to the place of execution in detachments of 500, at intervals of at least 2 kilometers. The attendant difficulties and nerve-wracking activity occasioned in doing this are shown in a randomly selected example: In Rokiskis, 3,208 people had to be transported 4.5 kilometers before they could be liquidated. To accomplish this task in 24 hours, more than 60 of the 80 available Lithuanian partisans had to be allocated for transportation and cordoning off duty. The remainder of them, who had to be constantly replaced, carried out the work together with my men. Motor vehicles are only occasionally available. Attempts to escape, which took place every now and then, were prevented exclusively by my men at the risk of their lives.

The unit in charge of this operation, called the Rollkommando Hamann (Hamann mobile detachment), was commanded by SS-Obersturmführer Joachim Hamann, who at the time was 28 years old. Hamann was known as a fanatical Jew-hater and extremely ambitious. The term "mobile detachment" was due to the unit’s motor park, which allowed the unit to operate throughout Lithuania from its basis in Kaunas. In commanding the mobile detachment Hamann gained the reputation of being Jäger’s "overeager bloodhound". His unbound energy in wiping out Lithuania’s rural Jews satisfied both his radical anti-Semitism and his career expectations.

SS-Obersturmführer Joachim Hamann, commander of the "Rollkommando Hamann" of Einsatzkommando 3, Kaunas.

With little personnel of his own at his disposal, Hamann had the murders in rural Lithuania carried out mainly through local auxiliaries. The radically anti-Semitic auxiliary policemen who did his dirty work he referred to as "partisans". They carried a white armband and were therefore also called "white bands" (Weiβbänder). These radical nationalists were formed into paramilitary units called "auxiliary policemen" (Hilfspolizisten). In Kaunas a battalion of these auxiliary policemen, with a strength of 1,755 men, was put together in early July 1941. From this battalion Hamann recruited the local members of his mobile detachment, including a lieutenant by the name of Bronius Norkus, who had been an officer in the Lithuanian army and became Hamann’s energetic and unscrupulous assistant in murdering the Jews of rural Lithuania.

In carrying out the Rokiskis massacre, Hamann’s detachment worked in close cooperation with the Lithuanian community administration and the local Lithuanian uniformed police. One day before the start of the large Rokiskis massacre the local police was informed that a mass shooting of Jews was to take place. Members of the local police force were to take part in the shooting only if they volunteered for this task, otherwise they were to perform the necessary guard duties. On 16 August the former "’partisans", now acting as policemen, collected 500 Jews in Rokiskis and marched them to the site of the killing, a nearby forest. Undressing the victims was one of the tasks of the local Lithuanian police, who received a daily allowance and free food in return for this service. The further proceeding was described as follows by historian Knut Stang ("Kollaboration und Völkermord. Das Rollkommando Hamann und die Vernichtung der litauischen Juden." In: Paul, Gerhard/Klaus-Michael Mallmann (editors): Die Gestapo im Zweiten Weltkrieg. >Heimatfront< und besetztes Europa. Darmstadt 2000. Quoted in Wette, Jäger, p. 106; my translation): The Jews had to take of their clothes; those who refused were […] beaten with a stick. In groups of 30 to 40 persons they then entered one of the pits and lay on the ground or on the previous victims. Then shots were fired from the pit's longitudinal rims. Victims who were only wounded were murdered by the Germans with aimed shots. Nevertheless some heavily wounded were still alive when the next group lay down in the pit.

On the next day the shootings in Rokiskis continued. As usual the murdering marksmen had unlimited quantities of vodka at their disposal, which led to their usually being completely drunk after the shootings.

Jäger expressed his recognition for Hamann’s achievements in his report: The goal of making Lithuania free of Jews could only be attained through the deployment of a raiding commando with selected men under the leadership of SS First Lieutenant Hamann, who completely and entirely adopted my goals and understood the importance of ensuring the co-operation of the Lithuanian partisans and the competent civilian positions.

Jäger’s enthusiasm for the results of Hamann’s work was not shared by the civilian administration of Nazi-occupied Lithuania, which had to deal with the sanitation problems posed by the large numbers of huge mass graves throughout the Lithuanian countryside. Some of the correspondence regarding the management of these mass graves has been recovered, including a letter dated 8 July 1942 sent by the District Medical Officer of Trakai to the Regional Commissioner Vilna Land, in response to the Regional Commissioner’s inquiry about mass graves in the respective region and the measures taken to prevent public health risks. The letter mentions mass graves at several killing sites recorded in the Jäger Report: Trakai (1,446 Jews killed on 30.9.1941, thereof 366 men, 483 women, 597 children - page 6), Semeliškes (962 Jews killed on 6.10.1941, thereof 213 men, 359 women and 390 children - page 6), Rumsiskis and Ziezmariai (784 Jews killed on 29 August 1941, thereof 20 men, 567 women and 197 children - page 3) and Kaišiadorys (1,911 Jewish men, women and children shot on 26 August 1941 - page 3).

This is a fragment from the Jäger Report, in which the brutal operations carried out by Hamann's detachament are described.

Transformers2000 (talk) 07:02, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

Getting better, but blogs are not reliable sources, see WP:SPS.
In any case, I have found two sources which should be sufficient. Go ahead and add Hamann, and once you do, I will add the sources. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:09, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

OK, thanks Ken. Transformers2000 (talk) 07:25, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

OK Transformers2000 (talk) 07:25, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

But where should he be placed? Transformers2000 (talk) 07:26, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

Maybe under the Einsatzgruppen commanders? Transformers2000 (talk) 07:26, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

Yes, that would seem appropriate. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:34, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

Karl Pötzinger

Karl Pötzinger, deputy commandant of the Treblinka extermination is not mentioned in the list.

Can I have your approval Kierzek to add him in the section of deputy commandants? I'll put him under Heinrich Matthes. Transformers2000 (talk) 14:30, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

Beyond My Ken, assuming the fact that when the guy asked if he could add Karl Pötzinger on the list and nobody responded with a no he assumed that he could do it freerly.

At the same time, Transformers2000) has been contributing at the page for more than a month now.

For example, Edmund Veesenmayer was not on the original list made by Kierzek, nor Ludwig Fischer, the one who established the Warsaw Ghetto.

Also nobody gave you a consenus to delete perpetrators on the talk page, so how about we make an official talk page and look at at least one time per hour or something? Ciobanu Oilor (talk) 11:23, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

On the list, my mistake. Ciobanu Oilor (talk) 11:28, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

Unless a "deputy commander" stands out in a major way, he is just an underling and carrying out set Nazi policy. I do not have time to check all new entries added day-by-day. One must use discernment. I do, for example, believe all Einsatzgruppen commanders should be included. Kierzek (talk) 13:59, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

I understand Kierzek. Ciobanu Oilor (talk) 15:25, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

OK, now I understand the situation fully and I apologize, I didn't think twice before writing my statement.

Now, I understand that the list needs to contain major perpetrators of the Holocaust.

For example, Karl Pötzinger ( I know I insist a lot on him but hear me out a bit) was one of the two deputy commandants of the Treblinka extermination camp where it is estimated that 900.000 Jews were exterminated, it is higly estimated that even 1 million died there but due to the insufficient data we don't know exactly.

This individual was indeed one of the main participants in the genocidal Operation Reinhardt.

I wanted to add him under Heinrich Matthes, another deputy commandant of Treblinka that is on the list. Can I? Transformers2000 (talk) 09:28, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

I agree with Kierzek above. Unless you have a citation from a reliable source saying that Potzinger was a "major perpetrator of the Holocaust" (or words to that effect}, his position isn't significant enough to add to the list. Beyond My Ken (talk) 09:38, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

It is written on his Wikipedia page that he was a Holocaust perpetrator. Check on Martin Weiss (Nazi official) and on Arthur Nebe (an Einsatzgruppen commander who is on the list) and you'll see. Transformers2000 (talk) 10:42, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

There is a difference between a "Holocaust perpetrator", which in vague and could mean thousands of people and a MAJOR "Holocaust perpetrator". The list needs a much tighter included group by that definition; which then needs to be followed. The people who made policy and major figures who made key decisions or were very key players (for lack of a better word). The list really should not have more than say 15 or so people on it. I do not believe "deputy" commanders, for example, should be on the list. Kierzek (talk) 19:22, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

OK, so before writing this argument I didn't mention any concrete information to link him of being a major perpetrator.

(This is taken from his Wikipedia page) Karl Pötzinger (1908–1944) born in Leipzig, Germany, was a Holocaust perpetrator who began his World War II career as the Action T4 “burner” at the Brandenburg Euthanasia Centre and at the Bernburg Euthanasia Centre with the rank of Staff Sergeant in the SA. Pötzinger was a career policeman at the outbreak of war. He was transferred to Treblinka extermination camp at the onset of Operation Reinhard of 1942 along with other gassing specialists. Pötzinger became Deputy Commandant of Treblinka II under SS-Scharführer Heinrich Matthes, supervising the gas chambers and later, serving as head of the cremation kommando in the Totenlager as soon as the covering up Nazi crimes became paramount to the Nazi leadership notably to Heinrich Himmler himself during his visit to Treblinka in 1943.

Transformers2000 (talk) 20:00, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

You need to familiarize yourself with sone Wikipedia policies. First WP:Wikipedia is not a reliable source. Second WP:Reliable sources. We're going to need citations from reliable sources (not Wikipedia articles) to add someone to the list. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:08, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

On many other articles I have found the exact same text that was written on Wikipedia about him. Yes , I have checked on other sources about him but the result is the same. See for yourself.

Wikipedia link : https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_P%C3%B6tzinger

Other article with exact text : https://hyperleap.com/topic/Karl_P%C3%B6tzinger

Transformers2000 (talk) 21:17, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

This is the only citation I can give at the moment, due to the insufficient articles about him this is all I have found and got as a result. Transformers2000 (talk) 21:18, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

I just wrote that WP:Wikipedia is not a reliable source and you point me to a Wikipedia article, and to a website that duplicates the Wikipedia article. Again you need a citation from a WP:Reliable source. Please read both of those policies, because you apparetly don;t understand them. Reading Wikipedia article can lead you to reliable sources, but they are not themselves reliable sources. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:23, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

OK, now I've read them and I understand the situation from a completely new point of view.

Transformers2000 (talk) 15:03, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for telling me Ken. Transformers2000 (talk) 15:03, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

This list needs to be edited

It's supposed to be a list of the major perpetrators of the Holcaust, but it's turning into a list of everyone in Nazi Germany who was in any way connected to the Holocaust. Given the scale of what occurred, that list would be very, very long. This list desperately needs to be weeded out.

I suggest that editors very familiar with the subject remove entries as they see fit, and any disputes about specific removals can be discussed here. If multiple entries are removed and there is an objection to one or two of them, please do not revert the entire edit, instead revert only those that are disputed, so discussion can take 333place about them. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:41, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

I agree with you BMK. I have removed some in the recent past, but more work needs done. The list is too long. As I’ve said in some of my edit summaries, it is supposed to be “major perpetrators” not just people that were involved in the events or functionaries carrying out policy and orders of those above. Kierzek (talk) 13:44, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

Um, hello. I want to apologize for the fact that I added too many individuals on this list in the last couple of months that may not have been actual major perpetrators of the Holocaust.

Tomorrow I promise that I will delete fuctionaries or people involved in these events. Transformers2000 (talk) 21:22, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

Beyond My Ken, yes, I deleted some fuctionaries that were not main perpetrators. At the same time, how do you expect me or any other editor to discuss the adding of new content on the list if you don't even check when we ask on this talk page.

There have been 6 days since I have asked for permission to add a new perpetrator nobody even responded, since then even.

I'm not trying to seem hostile towards criticism, but you should also check the page more frequently if you keep insisting that I should ask for approval, and I promise I'm going to ask *if* you also check the page frequently or at least when you're avalible. Transformers2000 (talk) 05:18, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

It's not about me, it's about consensus on this talk page. If you seek consensus, and there's no answer, within a couple of days or so, from me or other editors, then you're free to assume that no one objects and to go ahead and add the names you're seeking to add. But if you seek consensus and don't get it, you can't add the names. That's the only way this list is not going to grow long and unwieldy again.

The primary problem here is that these are supposed to be the major perpetrators of the Holocaust. By all rights, by Wikipedia's verifability policy, every name on this list should be supported by a citation from a reliable source which says that the person named was indeed a "major perpetrator" -- so we have two choices: start again from scratch and require that every name added have a source -- which seems silly for a lot of the people on the list, who are obviously major perpetrators -- or to have community consensus for every new name. That is, I'm suggesting that we "grandfather" in the names already on the least, and that no names be added without a consensus from this talk page. That has nothing to do with me, personally. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:53, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Otto Bräutigam

I propose to have this individual added on the list, and here's reason why. Bräutigam was one of the key people to turn the results of the Wannsee Conference into action, which means that he directly participated in the first steps of the planning of the Holocaust. Transformers2000 (talk) 19:01, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Please provide a citation from a reliable source that says what you wrote above. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:12, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

WP:CITE https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Br%C3%A4utigam

... worked for the Auswärtiges Amt as well as the Reich Ministry for the Occupied Eastern Territories of Alfred Rosenberg in Nazi Germany. In this position Bräutigam was involved in the Holocaust.

Transformers2000 (talk) 05:50, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

I cited on Wikipedia because there were other articles about him but they were in German. Transformers2000 (talk) 05:50, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

Please do not cite a Wikipedia article when you are asked for a reliable souerce ever again. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:23, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

I have read the links you have sent me for the first time and I sincerely searched for oyher sources, but I couldn't find any new. Because the information about them is very limited, I wasn't able to concretely give you a reliable source outside from Wikipedia (which itself isn't due to multiple factors). Transformers2000 (talk) 06:49, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

What you mean is that you can't find them on the Internet, but there are lots of libraries out there, all of which have lots of books in them, and there have been an almost uncountable number of books published about the Holocaust and World War II. If the people you are seeking to add are in actuality "major perpetrators" of the Holocaust, then I guarantee you that you would find their name in one of those books. You're just going to have to expand the universe of your research. 06:57, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

Okay, thank you for the advice Ken. I'll search right away. Transformers2000 (talk) 07:06, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

I decided to search on the official site of the Yad Vashem about Otto, and I have found this

WP:CITE https://www.yadvashem.org/yv/pdf-drupal/en/education/seminars/the_final_solution_matthaus.pdf Transformers2000 (talk) 07:13, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

In a fragment right there, a disscussion between Otto and Heinrich Lohse, the head of the civil administration of the occupied Baltic States is detailed. Transformers2000 (talk) 07:16, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

Or here WP:CITE https://books.google.ro/books?id=3URnDQAAQBAJ&pg=PA426&lpg=PA426&dq=Otto+Br%C3%A4utigam+holocaust&source=bl&ots=Xo8-O9cYnH&sig=ACfU3U1w_7Hdy1xQQWiGbjjN4A5bRr-97Q&hl=ro&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjM3fbQyKzkAhWt-yoKHa4tCpUQ6AEwEHoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=Otto%20Br%C3%A4utigam&f=false

In the search bar type his name and you'll see. Transformers2000 (talk) 07:19, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

I am seeing nothing that supports the idea that Otto Bräutigam was a "major perpetrator" of the Holocaust. If anything, several of the sources seem to indicate that he had some role in attempting to mitigate the de facto Hitler/Himmler policies. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:42, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

If I actually look closer it might seem so.. Now I understand the reason why I don't need to trust everything it is wrote on Wikipedia. Looked on his page again and found that the fact that he he participated in the Final Solution is questionable. Transformers2000 (talk) 07:48, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

Albert Forster

Albert Forster was Gauleiter of Danzig-West Prussia and under his administration of the region the local non-German population of Poles and Jews was classified as sub-human and subjected to extermination campaign involving ethnic cleansing, mass murder, and in case of some Poles with German ancestry, forceful Germanisation.

Forster at the outbreak of the war declared that "Jews are not humans, and must be eradicated like vermin...mercy towards Jews is reprehensible. Any means of destruction of Jews is desirable." Jews were killed locally or deported to the General Government. By November 1939 Danzig-West Prussia was declared "Judenfrei". It is estimated that up to 30,000 Jews from Polish areas annexed by Nazi Germany in Pomerania and attached to Danzig-West Prussia were murdered during the war.

Knowing this, he should be added on the list, maybe somewhere in the bottom. Transformers2000 (talk) 12:30, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

Please provide a citation from a reliable source which confirms the facts you wrote above. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:13, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

WP:CITE https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Forster Forster at the outbreak of the war declared that "Jews are not humans, and must be eradicated like vermin...mercy towards Jews is reprehensible. Any means of destruction of Jews is desirable."Jews were killed locally or deported to the General Government. By November 1939 Danzig-West Prussia was declared "Judenfrei". It is estimated that up to 30,000 Jews from Polish areas annexed by Nazi Germany in Pomerania and attached to Danzig-West Prussia were murdered during the war. Transformers2000 (talk) 05:54, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

Wikipedia is the only source whatsoever where I could find details regarding his ruthless campaign against Jews. On many other article only his campqign against Poles is mentioned.

WP:CITE https://real-life-villains.fandom.com/wiki/Albert_Forster Albert Forster (July 26th, 1902 - February 28th, 1952) was a Nazi German politician. Under his administration as the Gauleiter of Danzig-West Prussia during the Second World War, the local non-German population suffered ethnic cleansing, mass murder, and forceful Germanisation. Forster was sentenced to death for his crimes after Nazi Germany was defeated. Transformers2000 (talk) 05:57, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

OK, once again, WP:Wikipedia is not a reliable source, so when you're asked for a citations from a reliable source DO NOT CITE A WIKIPEDIA ARTICLE or any other website which copies the text from our article. You second cite is such a copy.
It's clear to me that you have not yet read WP:Reliable sources, or if you have readd it, that you have not understood it. Please READ WP:RS and do not suggest another addition to this list until you have understood it and are capable of offering citations to reliabale sources to support their addition. [User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] (talk) 06:22, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

Wikipedia:CITE https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/albert-forster

He became Gauliter (governor) of the province Danzig-West Prussia from 1939 to 1945. He persued a policy of assimilation of the Poles in his area of responsibility, in which he simply declared them to be German. This policy was in direct contrast to what was going on in the Warthegau by Gauliter Arthur Greiser. Griser zealously persued a policy of ethnic cleansing and had complained to SS Reichsfuhrer Heinrich Himmler that Forster's assimilation policy was against Nazi racial theory. When Himmler threatened Forster over this issue, Forster simply ignored him, realizing that Hitler allowed each Gauliter to run his area as he saw fit. Transformers2000 (talk) 06:54, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

Nothing in that supports the idea that Forster was a "major perpetrator" of the Holocaust. I'm not saying he wasn't, but you still haven't presented any evidence that says that he was. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:59, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

Due to the fact that Albert's involvement in the Holocaust is convered up ONLY on his Wikipedia page I cannot present any concrete evidence.

Again, sorry for not doing this correctly in the first place. Transformers2000 (talk) 07:03, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

Only his campaign against Poles is convered up on all related articles Transformers2000 (talk) 07:04, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

Einsatzgruppen commanders

I understand that citations are needed, but the Einsatzgruppen commanders shouldn't be deleted right away. Transformers2000 (talk) 09:23, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

I have no intention of deleting Einsatzgruppen commanders, but that doesn't mean that they don't still need to be supported with citations. Max Thomas of Einsatzgruppen "C" doesn't even have an article. Beyond My Ken (talk) 09:28, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

I understand what you are trying to say Ken. They do need citations because it is necessary for the article itself.

On the Max Thomas case, well that's a really complex problem there. The individual is noted of having been an Einsatzgruppen commander, because it is mentioned on the 'role' segment. I should probably check about him on other articles. Transformers2000 (talk) 09:37, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

INDENT, INDENT, INDENT, INDENT, INDENT!!!! And don't check other article, do your research OUTSIDE of Wikipedia. That's likely to give you citations you can use. Beyond My Ken (talk) 09:40, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

Max Thomas Wikipedia:CITE http://www.redcap70.net/A%20History%20of%20the%20SS%20Organisation%201924-1945.html/T/THOMAS,%20Dr.%20Max.html Next he took over the command of Einsatzgruppe "C" from Dr. Otto Rasche, thus becoming the groups second leader in the Ukraine and became Bds Kiev.

This little detail I found about Max Thomas proves that he was indeed an Einsatzgruppen commander, but the problem is that he doesn't have a Wikipedia page. Transformers2000 (talk) 09:45, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

From now on, I will not respond to any comment of yours which is not properly indented. Beyond My Ken (talk) 14:32, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

I understand that I seem to genuinely annoy you with my responses. I know I made mistakes, but I intend to correct them. I'll do my own research. Transformers2000 (talk) 18:26, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

The list should be deleted

The list is not necessary. We already have articles like this, with perpetrators. I am gonna delete the whole list. Ciobanu Oilor (talk) 17:53, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

Only admins can delete articles. You can launch a deletion discussion, but your chances of getting it deleted on such a terse basis is unlikely. Removing the actual list from the list article itself, however, constitutes vandalism — please don't do that. El_C 18:14, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

First of all, this list maybe has its problems, but we editors are working on it! Your statement is illogical and I promise you, unachievable if you won't have the consensus of other editors, but even so it still remains unachievable if no deletion disscussion is initiated. If you think you can do whatever you like you are sorely mistaken. Transformers2000 (talk) 18:21, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

@Ciobanu Oilor: I have contemplated paring back the list extensively, or even nominating it for deletion as being almost entirely unsourced, but have decided -- at least for the moment -- to concentrate on getting it sourced. Names may need to be deleted from the list, but wholesale deletion without consensus is, as El_C said, vandalism. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:13, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

I don't care about what you say losers. Fine, I won't edit the page UNLESS i am provoked. Ciobanu Oilor (talk) 19:43, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

@Ciobanu Oilor : Have you ever made an edit since you created your Wikipedia account? Also, the word 'losers' can be depicted as an insult towards all of us and you may get a profibition on ever editing again. Transformers2000 (talk) 19:47, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

@User:Beyond My Ken could you please delete this talk page? It is totally useless, it was created only for Ciobanu's need for negative attention. Transformers2000 (talk) 19:50, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

No. It is a current discussion. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:58, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

Citations for perpetrators from the list

On this page citations for every perpetrator (with the exception of obvious key players such as Hitler, Himmler, Heydrich, Goering or Eichmann) should be writen, so that we can finalize the big question regarding the true status of a major perpetrator. Transformers2000 (talk) 09:27, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

I have just said that about 15 times, so there was no reason for you to repeat it. Everyone can read the page who wants to. Beyond My Ken (talk) 09:29, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

Mate, I'm sorry but my laptop just glitched and I don't know how the text was added. I was searching for citations and it happend. Transformers2000 (talk) 09:38, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

Odilo Globocnik WP:CITE http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/ar/globocknik.html

Globocnik was pardoned by Himmler and appointed on 9 November 1939 as SS and Police Leader for the Lublin district in Poland. Globocnik was a brutal police commander who not only waged a terrible war on Polish Jewry, but who carried out drastic population expulsions in the Zamosc Lands, to germanise the Lublin area.

Globocnik collecting "for the party" in Austria

He was chosen by Himmler as the central figure in Operation Reinhard – named after Reinhard Heydrich, no doubt because of his scandalous past record and well-known virulent anti-semitism.

Put in charge of a special company of SS men not subordinate to any higher authority and responsible only to Himmler, Globocnik founded three death camps as part of Aktion Reinhard, and one combined death camp and concentration camp Majdanek (Lublin).

Globocnik drew rich rewards from the slaughter of 1.7 million Jews whose property ranging from their houses and valuables down to the gold in their teeth was seized by the SS.

Inspecting troops in Trieste

As Globocnik’s Summary Reports show, he carried out Himmler’s orders with brutal efficiency and by November 1943 Operation Reinhard had been completed and the three death camps directly under his control were liquidated.

Heinrich Muller WP:CITE https://allthatsinteresting.com/heinrich-muller

stapo chief Heinrich Müller was one of the most feared Nazis in Europe. An integral figure in both the planning and execution of the Holocaust, Müller has been described by authors and scholars with phrases like “cold, dispassionate killer” and “utterly ruthless.” As the right-hand man of Heydrich, one of the Holocaust’s chief architects, Müller helped arrange the deportations of tens of thousands Jews in order to initiate the Final Solution. When Adolf Eichmann, the senior SS official widely recognized as a key Holocaust organizer, reported to Müllerin mid-1941 that Hitler had finally ordered the destruction of the European Jews, Müller simply nodded his head — because he already knew.

31 Colorized Vintage Crime Scene Photos That Bring A Violent Past Back To Life

From All That's Interesting The mass of logistics needed to execute the Holocaust — the deportations, death squads, mass killings, and record keeping — Müller juggled all of it like the bureaucratic fanatic that he was.

Theodor Eicke WP:CITE https://spartacus-educational.com/GEReicke.htm In May 1934 Eicke was given responsibility of reorganizing Germany's concentration camp system. One of his recommendations was that guards should be warned that they would be punished if they showed prisoners any signs of humanity. Charles W. Sydnor believed that "Eicke's personality, in particular his unremitting hatred for everything and everyone non-Nazi, influenced definitively the development, the structure, and the uniquely inhumane ethos of the concentration camps. Eicke was convinced that the camps were the most effective instrument available for destroying the enemies of National Socialism. He regarded all prisoners as subhuman adversaries of the State, marked for immediate destruction if they offered the slightest resistance. Eicke eventually succeeded in nurturing this same attitude among many SS guards in the camps.... Like many of the concentration camp commanders he trained, Eicke basically was pitiless and cruelly insensitive to human suffering, and regarded qualities such as mercy and charity as useless, outmoded absurdities that could not be tolerated in the SS." Eicke's re-organization of Dachau created the model for all future SS concentration camps. He drafted a new disciplinary code for inmates, and formalized the division of responsibility between the concentration camp staff and the guard unit. He forbade arbitrary maltreatment of inmates by guards, not out of any humanitarian feelings, but because it was bad for discipline, and because the SS had to be careful not to become involved in any scandals, such as those which had taken place in the summer of 1933. Instead he introduced varying degrees of punishment ranging from withdrawal of privileges to solitary confinement and corporal punishment. In extreme cases the commandant had the power to sentence an inmate to death and carry out the sentence within the confines of the camp without reference to any judicial authority. The ritualized beating of prisoners was intended not only to humiliate and punish the offender but to deter other inmates, and at the same time to harden the guards.

Richard Glucks WP:CITE https://ww2gravestone-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/ww2gravestone.com/people/glucks-richard/amp/?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQEKAFwAQ%3D%3D#aoh=15672776328687&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=De%20pe%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fww2gravestone.com%2Fpeople%2Fglucks-richard%2F

On 01-04-1936, he became the head of staff of Theodor Eicke,

then Concentration Camps Inspector and head of the SS-Wachverbände, first with the rank of a Standartenführer and later rising to Oberführer. When Eicke became field commander of the SS Division Totenkopf

, which had been created following his instigation, Glücks was promoted to Concentration Camps Inspector and named by Himmler as Eicke’s successor on 18-11-1939. On 20-04-1941, Glücks was promoted to the rank of an SS-Brigadeführer, and on 29-03-1942, he became the head of Amt D: Konzentrationslagerwesen of the newly formed SS-Wirtschafts-Verwaltungshauptamt (WVHA), the Economics and Administrative Department of the SS.

3 On 23-07-1943, Glücks was made SS-Gruppenführer

and a Generalleutnant of the Waffen-SS. Close to Reichsführer SS Heinrich Himmler, he was directly responsible for the forced labour of the camp inmates, and was also the supervisor for the medical practices in the camps. Glücks was described by Rudolf Höss

as a static administrator and bureaucrat, afraid of Himmler and mostly occupied with maintaining the concentration camps as Eicke had set them up. Höss was hanged in Auschwitz age 46, on 16-04-1947. At the same time, Höss described Glücks as a man unable to grasp the consequences of his directives, and claimed Glücks had risen to his high position (and stayed there) only as a protégé of Eicke and Oswald Pohl,

the head of the WVHA. Glücks’s responsibilities at first mainly covered the use of concentration camp inmates for forced labour.

I will continue adding citations to individuals present on the list to prove that they were major perpetrators of the Final Solution.

Transformers2000 (talk) 18:58, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

Wilhelm Boger

Since Maximilian Grabner, the head of the Gestapo command at Auschwitz is on the list, I thought that Wilhelm Boger shoild be too.

WP:CITE https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/116976144/maximilian-grabner

Maximilian Grabner was the chief of the Political Department/Department II (camp Gestapo) at the Auschwitz Concentration Camp. As Gestapo chief Grabner was responsible for a variety of issues in the camp to include investigation of possible escape plans and any resistance movements that might arise in the camp. He also was required to ensure there was no prisoner contact with anyone outside the camp. To ensure these matters were efficiently resolved and kept to a minimum, many of the camps prisoners who were suspects in these activities were housed in a bunker in Block 11. Grabner's staff members perpetrated all sorts of cruelty and subjected to various heinous types of torture. Many of his victims were sent directly to the inner courtyard between Block 10 and Block 11, where they were shot.

Boger was an officer of the Political Departament at Auschwitz, where he was a well-known torturer. He invented the 'Boger swing', an instrument of torture used in the imfamous Block 11. After the war, during the Frankfurt Auschwitz Trials, he was sentenced to life imprisonment for his atrocities commited at the extermination camp.

WP:CITE https://dirkdeklein-net.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/dirkdeklein.net/2018/08/04/wilhelm-bogerthe-tiger-of-auschwitz-auschwitz-political-department/amp/?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQEKAFwAQ%3D%3D#aoh=15672765029279&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=De%20pe%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fdirkdeklein.net%2F2018%2F08%2F04%2Fwilhelm-bogerthe-tiger-of-auschwitz-auschwitz-political-department%2F

Wilhelm Friedrich Boger who had the nickname ‘the tiger of Auschwitz’, was an officer of Political Department ,which were a part of the Gestapo. He was notorious for the crimes he committed.

He also invented a torture device called the ‘Boger Swing’

Boger swing

After the war, Boger’s secretary,Frau Braun, gave a vivid description how the Boger Swing was used.

“It was a meter-long iron bar suspended by chains hung from the ceiling(the drawing above is from a different version of the Boger Swing)… A prisoner would be brought in for “questioning,” stripped naked and bent over the bar, wrists manacled to ankles. A guard at one side would shove him—or her—off across the chamber in a long, slow arc, while Boger would ask “questions,” at first quietly, then barking them out, and at the last bellowing. At each return, another guard armed with a crowbar would smash the victim across the buttocks. As the swinging went on and on, and the wailing victim fainted, was revived only to faint howling again, the blows continued—until only a mass of bleeding pulp hung before their eyes. Most perished from the ordeal–some sooner, some later. In the end a sack of bones and flayed flesh and fat was swept along the shambles of that concrete floor to be dragged away”

His evil crimes in the Political Department continued until the evacuation of Auschwitz in January 1945. Transformers2000 (talk) 18:39, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

Ernst Girzik

Evidence that shows the involvement of Ernst Girzik in the Holocaust.

WP:CITE http://db.yadvashem.org/deportation/supervisorsDetails.html?language=en&itemId=7300693

He served as one of "Eichmann’s men" in the Central Office for Jewish Emigration (Zentralstelle fuer juedische Auswanderung) in the Vienna (Wien) and Prague (Praha) branches.

In the summer of 1939, Girzick joined the security service (SD – Sicherheitsdienst) in Vienna and was immediately assigned to work at the local Central Office for Jewish Emigration. His superior was Alois Brunner (Brunner I). Girzick was assigned the task of interrogating Viennese Jews who filed an emigration request and later took part in the compulsory relocation of Jews from various quarters in the city to the 2nd and 9th districts. From 1942, Girzick became responsible for supervising the card index of Viennese Jews, which had been compiled by Anton Brunner (Brunner II). In this position, Girzick also assisted in the organization of transports of Jewish deportees from Vienna to the death camps in Eastern Europe and to the Theresienstadt ghetto. He cooperated with the German Reich Railway (Reichsbahn) in Vienna and participated in the eviction and assembly of Jews and confiscation of property belonging to Jews (Judenaushebungen) who were to be deported to the East. In the summer of 1943 Girzick transferred to the Central Office for Jewish Emigration in Prague, where he worked alongside with Hans Guenther. From March until December 1944, Girzick was a member of Eichmann’s special unit(Sonderkommando) in Hungary, which organized deportations of the local Jewish population to Auschwitz. Transformers2000 (talk) 20:00, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

Reorganizing of the page

It would be very useful if the list could be reorganized.

For example, Ante Pavelić is put somewhere high on the list, near the ones who initiated, planned, shortly the masterminds of the Holocaust. Though Pavelić was involved only in perpetration of the Holocaust in Croatia. According to a older talk page between Kierzek and another user Pavelić's victimes were mainly Serbs, Bosniak Muslims (numbers go on more than 200,000) and Jews and Romas were less (30,000 or so).

Another examples could be Vessenmayer and Ludwig Fischer. Fischer was Governor of the Warsaw District and the mastermind behind the establishment of the Warsaw Ghetto. Vessenmayer on the other hand had a key role in the persecution and murder of Croatian and Serbian Jewry and was a major figure in the deportation of 300,000 Hungarian Jews to Auschwitz.

I propose that they should be placed where they belong. Transformers2000 (talk) 08:39, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

This list article has, as I see it, a number of major problems:

There is no standard for what a "major perpetrator of the Holocaust" actually means, therefore names are added on an ad hoc basis. I mean, obviously we can agree easily on the big guns, Hitler, Himmler, Heydrich, Goering et al., but this list is reaching pretty far down the ranks, much further than it should. "Major perpetrator" needs to be properly defined.
Names on the list are not supported by citations from reliable sources, meaning that anyone on the list can be deleted from it by any editor at any time. That won't be the case with Joachim Hamman, because I added four sources supporting his entry, therefore, if someone wants to remove him, they'll have to discuss it on the talk page and convince other editors that those sources don't support him being a "major perpertrator".
Once every name on the list is supported by a citation from a reliable source, and "major perpetrator" is defined, then we can discuss how the list should be organized in light of that definition. Now is not the time to do that, now is the time to spend energy on getting citations, because sooner or later, names without citations are going to be removed from the list, I can guarantee you that.

So no, I do not support reorganization of the list at this time. Beyond My Ken (talk) 08:49, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

Okay, then we've got some work to do. Transformers2000 (talk) 09:06, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

In an older talk page (that somehow got deleted today) a user asked Kierzek about the 'major perpetrator' status, according to whom. And Kierzek responded 'according to historians'. Transformers2000 (talk) 09:19, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

(ec) It didn't "somehow" get deleted today - I cleaned up the page of old discussions. Yes "according to historians", but that means we actually need to have a definition of what historians mean by "major perpetrator". We don't have that.

And would you please, please, PLEASE indent your comments? I gave you instructions on how to do that on this page and on your talk page Please follow them!. 09:25, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

I will get you citations, don't you worry. Transformers2000 (talk) 09:20, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

One thing, leave Hans-Adolf Prutzmann's name. That's his full name. Transformers2000 (talk) 09:21, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

I left all hyphenated names as they were. Beyond My Ken (talk) 09:31, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

I agree with BMK. "There is no standard for what a 'major perpetrator of the Holocaust' actually means". The page needs reorganized. The top people involved is easy enough to agree upon, I would think. It is the "others", included by other editor's over time, which need scrutiny. Some that should be included (besides the top dogs) would be: Theodor Eicke, Ernst Kaltenbrunner, Oswald Pohl, Richard Glücks, Odilo Globočnik, Heinrich Müller, Rudolf Höss, Philipp Bouhler (T4), Karl Brandt (T4); not a complete list, but ones that come to mind for inclusion. Kierzek (talk) 15:22, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

Unless, I missed seeing him with the run through this too long list, Friedrich Jeckeln should be included. Command over and direct involvement in Einsatzgruppen murder death squads and over mass killings in USSR. And more than a functionary, developed his own method of killing large numbers of people. With this said, I believe all deputy commanders listed should be deleted. Kierzek (talk) 22:13, 3 September 2019 (UTC)