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A fresh start

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Now that Transformers2000 has been indef blocked for sockpuppetry, and Ciobanu Oilor for being one of their socks, I think we should start to move forward without the distraction of someone whose only interest was to add names to the list.

Let's begin with Kierzek's last two comments, from a thread I just archived:

I agree with BMK. "There is no standard for what a 'major perpetrator of the Holocaust' actually means". The page needs reorganized. The top people involved is easy enough to agree upon, I would think. It is the "others", included by other editor's over time, which need scrutiny. Some that should be included (besides the so-called top dogs) would be: Theodor Eicke, Ernst Kaltenbrunner, Oswald Pohl, Richard Glücks, Odilo Globočnik, Heinrich Müller, Rudolf Höss, Philipp Bouhler (T4), Karl Brandt (T4); not a complete list, but ones that come to mind for inclusion. Kierzek (talk) 15:22, 2 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Unless, I missed seeing him with the run through this too long list, Friedrich Jeckeln should be included. Command over and direct involvement in Einsatzgruppen murder death squads and over mass killings in USSR. And more than a functionary, developed his own method of killing large numbers of people. With this said, I believe all deputy commanders listed should be deleted. Kierzek (talk) 22:13, 3 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with those statements that the names Kierzek specifies should stay on the list, and that deputy commanders should be removed from it. I would make an exception for Hamman, who was sort of a de facto commander as leader of a quasi-independent group that killed tens of thousands of Lithuanians.

At this moment, realistically, Kierzek and I appear to be the only editors interested in shaping this list article, so our agreement makes a de facto consensus. However, I think we should wait a few days to see if anyone else turns up to comment, and go from there.

After the list is brought under control as consisting of only consensus major perpetrators of the Holocaust, then I think the next step is to source everybody, with the possible exceptions of the "sky is blue" entries such as Hitler, Himmler, Heydrich, Göring, Eichmann, et al. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:24, 3 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I will remove the deputy commanders, except for Hamman. I reviewed both Günther brothers listed, and do not see them as major figures. They are functionaries. I will remove them, as well. Kierzek (talk) 20:03, 7 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Beyond My Ken: Done for now. I did not need to add Jeckeln, he is on there towards the bottom. Which brings are another issue, listing people in a specific order to be decided; and not as it is now, a more random list (after the top people as listed). It still needs work and RS cites added, "with the... exceptions", as you state, BMK. Kierzek (talk) 21:50, 7 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. Sorry I haven't been active here - too much other stuff going on. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:45, 7 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Rosenberg

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BMK, I believe Alfred Rosenberg should be removed; not a major perpetrator, for the same reasons Joseph Goebbels was removed. Kierzek (talk) 23:53, 12 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I'm going to have to ponder that a bit, only because of Rosenberg's official position of Reich Minister for the Occupied Eastern Territories. I recall that he was pretty much outmaneuvered by Hans Frank as head of the General Government, and was therefore not terribly influential in that role (just as he was outmaneuvered by Goebbels for the most part on the propaganda & culture front), but I don't recall specifically how involved Rosenberg got as Reich Minister in Holocaust-related activities. I'll do a bit of research and get back to you. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:02, 13 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
That's fine. Kierzek (talk) 00:06, 13 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ok, start off with the fact that one of Rosenberg's representatives was at the Wannassee Conference, and you've got pretty damning prima facie evidence that Rosenberg and his ministry was a major participant. However, when you dig deeper, you find that while Rosenberg wanted to be a major player in the extermination of the Jews, and held the requisite ideological views (Hitler had to stop him from mentioning the extermination of the Jews in a public speech once, for political reasons), he was simply consistently outflanked by Himmler and Frank (especially Himmler), and ended up playing a negligible role, even though he remained in the loop. It wasn't for his lack of trying or desire, he just didn't have the pull within the Nazi system to get around Himmler, and Rosenberg's role was reduced in practical terms to a minor one.
    So, long story short, I agree, and I'm going to remove Rosenberg now, subject to re-addition if other editors disagree. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:42, 13 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Erwin Lambert

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@Beyond My Ken:, what do you think. A fairly close one between major perpetrator and functionary. Kierzek (talk) 13:42, 19 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'll have to do some research, which I probably can't get to until next week, due to RL activities. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:04, 20 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@User:Kierzek:,Erwin was assigned for the construction of gas chambers at the Treblinka, Belzec and Sobibor extermination camps, where millions of Jews have died. During the Treblinka, Belzec and Sobibor trials he was indicted for co-accessory to the murder of hundreds of thousands, but was not convicted due to the lack of evidence, but he did however served a few years in prison after the Treblinka trials (the ones in the '60's). He is a functionary because he was hired to build the gas chambers from the extermination camps but at the same time one of leading architects of the Holocaust in Poland due to the immense death toll. Zoe Burghezul (talk) 17:24, 8 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 21:06, 10 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Was Aktion T4 a part of the Holocaust?

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I noticed that previous editors included in the list the people most directly responsible for Aktion T4, which involved the mass gassing of disabled people, resulting in the deaths of hundreds of thousands.

All I am asking is whether or not it was a part of the Holocaust. Prisonbreak300 (talk) 07:46, 14 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 00:38, 9 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Possible additions

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Should I add Vjekoslav Luburić and Ljubo Miloš? If being the head of an extermination camp is enough for the list, they should both be included. ThePlatypusofDoom (talk) 00:52, 16 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I don’t think they should be listed as major perpetrators. Involved yes but major? Note also that Bandera is on the list, but in my humble opinion, Bandera shouldn't be here either. Again was Bandera and his butchers involved in the Holocaust? Yes. Major perpetrator? I don’t think so. - GizzyCatBella🍁 15:02, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]


Should Vjekoslav Luburić, Ljubo Miloš and Stepan Bandera be listed as major perpetrators of the Holocaust here? - GizzyCatBella🍁 15:13, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think they shouldn’t be listed here. - GizzyCatBella🍁 15:18, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I don't think I've seen any historian describe Bandera as a major perpetrator of the holocaust (or similar). He was largely in a concentration camp at the time, for anyone unaware. Have any historians described the other two as major perpetrators of the holocaust (or similar)? Tristario (talk) 23:21, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I think this list may be being too indiscriminate in the people it includes. For instance do Pierre Laval and Jurgen Stroop count as major perpetrators? Tristario (talk) 23:34, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Stroop directed the suppression of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising so I guess it’s okay but a lot of names here are added with the "assistance" of WP:OR I believe. In other words - unsourced. - GizzyCatBella🍁 03:19, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I think I agree with GizzyCatBella. Maybe we need to agree a definition of "major" or else rename the article? Others on this list that don't seem "major" to me include Therese Brandl, Elisabeth Lupka, Irma Grese, Elisabeth Volkenrath, Horst Fischer - people involved in selection in the camps. BobFromBrockley (talk) 13:58, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The definition of "major perpetrators" is key. There is some guide in the article responsibility for the Holocaust, which is linked as further information at the start of the list. It quickly boils down to semantics.
Approve: Vjekoslav Luburić and Ljubo Miloš: as the main commmanders of Jasenovac concentration camp, they should be seen as a major perpetrators of the Holocaust. It should however be noted that the majority of victims were Serbs, and not Jews, and the Ustaše movement which they were a part of collaborated independently with Nazi Germany to further their own agenda.
Oppose: Stepan Bandera: should be removed from this list. He can at most be said to bear symbolic responsibility for the Lviv pogroms of 1941. The total number of Jewish victims in the '41 pogroms are estimated at around five thousand which can in no way be considered a major component in the Holocaust. I don't think the Massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia are considered a part of the Holocaust and even if they were, I don't know how much responsibility can be attributed to Bandera.
Approve: Jurgen Stroop: overseeing the repression of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising should be seen as a major event in the Holocaust (he was apparently thinking of Ukraine...[1])
Approve: Pierre Laval, a prime example of a collaborator. There is no content in the article about Laval specifically addressing his participation in the Holocaust. I would say that being a Nazi collaborator and the highest ranking civilian statesman, giving orders that directly resulted in the deportation and deaths of Jews in the Holocaust means he should be on the list. (There is a similiar current issue in how Zelenskyy is adamant that the puppet statesmen in the new annexed Ukrainian/Russian regions will be held accountable).
It's very tricky and I think that there's substantial OR because (as BobFromBrockley points out) there is no definition of "major" and this creates a problem. The people that were directly involved in the killings, camp guards, can hardly said to be major perpetrators. Erwin Lambert for instance, was responsible for designing and building the gas chambers themselves, a very heinous thing but to say that he was a major perpetrator is a question of philosophical debate with no clear answer. --Jabbi (talk) 15:00, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This has come up before, as one can see from discussion "A fresh start" in 2019, above. While there is no direct definition of "major" perpetrators, common-sense would-be ones that were directly involved in policy and command (camp commanders and command over Einsatzgruppen units, for example); not functionaries. The list needs to be trimmed down.
  • Hans Delmotte should be removed, functionary.
  • Friedrich Entress should be removed, functionary.
  • Helmuth Vetter should be removed, functionary.
  • Georg Norin should be removed, functionary.
  • Eduard Krebsbach should be removed, functionary.
  • Hans König should be removed, functionary.
  • Johann Kremer should be removed, functionary.
  • Josef Klehr should be removed, functionary.
  • Horst Schumann should be removed, functionary.
  • Carl Clauberg should be removed, functionary.
  • Sigmund Rascher should be removed, functionary.
  • Otto Moll should be removed, functionary.
  • Fritz Klein should be removed, functionary.
  • August Bogusch should be removed, functionary.
  • Therese Brandl should be removed, functionary.
  • Elisabeth Lupka should be removed, functionary.
  • Waldemar Hoven should be removed, functionary.
  • Erich Bauer should be removed, functionary.
  • Gustav Laabs should be removed, functionary.
  • Josef Kollmer should be removed, functionary.
  • Kurt Bolender should be removed, functionary.
  • Hans Koch should be removed, functionary.
  • Jürgen Stroop should be included.
  • Irma Grese should be removed, functionary.
  • Elisabeth Volkenrath should be removed, functionary.
  • Horst Fischer should be removed. A selection officer is only a functionary, not in command.
  • Pierre Laval should be removed.
  • Stepan Bandera should be removed.
  • Oswald Poche is border-line.

Kierzek (talk) 23:06, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I understand and can agree with most of these removals. That said, I would insert Albert Speer and Fritz Sauckel due to their vital role regarding the exploitation of millions of slave laborers. Lightiggy (talk) 01:40, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I don’t agree, because this list is specifically talking about the holocaust. Primarily the genocide of European Jews and others. Kierzek (talk) 19:18, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure about Sauckel, but didn't Speer have some level of direct involvement with the camps? Lightiggy (talk) 23:30, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Not directly with genocide. Kierzek (talk) 19:31, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The debate about Speer is not about whether he perpetrated the Holocaust, but whether he knew about it. Speer always denied that he did not, conveniently leaving the room -- for instance -- to travel elsewhere when Himmler spoke about it in one instance. The evidence is entirely clear now that he did know about it, that he must have in his capacity as Minister of Armaments. While one can certainly make an argument that those in power who knew about it are de facto perpetrators, this is a list of major perpetrators, so I don't believe Speer qualifies.

As for the others listed about, I agree entirely with Kierzek that those who facilitated the Holocaust in their position as functionaries of Nazi Germany do not qualify as major perpetrators and should be removed, while those whose participation went beyond that -- such as Luburic and Stroop -- should remain or be added. Beyond My Ken (talk) 15:30, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with these proposed removals, for the most part this article is not for functionaries. Oswald Poche is borderline and probably not a functionary, but I don't think he's major enough to make this list. Tristario (talk) 00:29, 14 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ping: Lightiggy, Kierzek, Jabbi, BobFromBrockley, Tristario, ThePlatypusofDoom

Let’s come back to the original three first:

Vjekoslav Luburić

Ljubo Miloš

Stepan Bandera

@ Lightiggy, Kierzek, Jabbi, BobFromBrockley, Tristario, ThePlatypusofDoom - I acted on the above. Please continue discussion about the rest. Thanks - GizzyCatBella🍁 20:31, 13 October 2022 (UTC) Add Beyond My Ken - GizzyCatBella🍁 22:32, 13 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

haven’t had time to !vote but I agree with GizzyCatBella edits and suggestions. BobFromBrockley (talk) 06:51, 15 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    • Circling back to all of these below, which comments are requested. The list has become bloated and includes many people who were functionaries:
  • Hans Delmotte should be removed, functionary.
  • Friedrich Entress should be removed, functionary.
  • Helmuth Vetter should be removed, functionary.
  • Georg Norin should be removed, functionary.
  • Eduard Krebsbach should be removed, functionary.
  • Hans König should be removed, functionary.
  • Johann Kremer should be removed, functionary.
  • Josef Klehr should be removed, functionary.
  • Horst Schumann should be removed, functionary.
  • Carl Clauberg should be removed, functionary.
  • Sigmund Rascher should be removed, functionary.
  • Otto Moll should be removed, functionary.
  • Fritz Klein should be removed, functionary.
  • August Bogusch should be removed, functionary.
  • Therese Brandl should be removed, functionary.
  • Elisabeth Lupka should be removed, functionary.
  • Waldemar Hoven should be removed, functionary.
  • Erich Bauer should be removed, functionary.
  • Gustav Laabs should be removed, functionary.
  • Josef Kollmer should be removed, functionary.
  • Kurt Bolender should be removed, functionary.
  • Hans Koch should be removed, functionary.
  • Irma Grese should be removed, functionary.
  • Elisabeth Volkenrath should be removed, functionary.
  • Horst Fischer should be removed. A selection officer is only a functionary, not in command.
  • Oswald Poche is border-line.

Kierzek (talk) 15:42, 15 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As above I support all of these suggested removals, including Oswald Poche Tristario (talk) 22:52, 15 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I support these removals as well. Beyond My Ken (talk) 17:09, 19 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I will be mainly not be available until 8 November, going out of the country. When I return, I will delete the ones above, if consensus remains. Kierzek (talk) 14:54, 26 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Kierzek (talk) 23:28, 8 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Two suggestions that I have are Vidkun Quisling and Karl Marthinsen.
Lightiggy (talk) 15:06, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

More borderline cases

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BobFromBrockley (talk) 04:08, 14 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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