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For a list of "notable" lesbian bars, there sure are a lot of red links and non-notable entries here. Should this list only include establishments with Wikipedia entries? ---Another Believer(Talk)14:54, 14 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hey, AB...I'm sort of conducting this as a multi-step process. I've listed all the bars that are currently listed at Lesbian bar, where I've been discussing at that article's Talk:Lesbian bar that we should clean up the section, which is a mess. Getting a lot of pushback there from one editor. So my first step was create this list and include every bar listed there that had any kind of citation and list this article as the 'main article' on that page.
Second step I'm thinking look here at as many of the redlinked bar citations as we can to see if there's even one that supports a claim to notability, either with sigcov in RS or with some statement like "first lesbian bar in Atlanta" or whatever. If there is, leave it redlinked as plausibly notable, maybe someone will create the article. If the only source we have is both not sigcov in RS and doesn't make such a statement, trim.
I'd prefer the list be trimmed to only display notable establishments, meaning those with Wikipedia entries (and red links if there's clear evidence an entry should be created). ---Another Believer(Talk)15:15, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I could go with clear evidence a candidate should be investigated. Clear evidence one needs to be created is no different from what's required of an article; a redlink doesn't require that same standard. Valereee (talk) 16:14, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Virus and L'Paradis; source includes sig cov of each. Plausible claim to notability as the only two remaining lesbian bars in Hong Kong. Leaving them redlinked. Valereee (talk) 15:44, 14 April 2023 (UTC
Goldfinder: neither source is really sigcov, but the "maybe the most famous in the world" is a claim to notability, leaving it redlinked for now. Valereee (talk) 15:48, 14 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Valereee Considering all the hoops you've made me jump through for restaurant articles, you're comfortable leaving an entry which is "likely notable" based solely on the year of establishment? Where's the evidence of notability? ---Another Believer(Talk)15:07, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm comfortable leaving it as a redlink in another article. That doesn't mean it's been shown to be notable, just that one editor thinks it might be a promising candidate. Valereee (talk) 15:20, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Have opened in 1936 is evidence of notability. It's not enough to create an article, but it's a plausible claim. I think we're talking about two different things, here. I believe this list should include redlinks if there's at least one instance of sigcov or there's a plausible claim. Valereee (talk) 15:30, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
New Moon, sigcov in RS, leaving as a redlink. Valereee (talk) 17:01, 14 April 2023 (UTC
Hey, totally open to discussing. Certainly I think if someone finds sigcov in non-local, non-niche publications, that's pretty strong evidence a place should be redlinked basically everywhere it's mentioned so that when the article is eventually created, those links will be in place. Valereee (talk) 15:27, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We're talking at each other too fast. As I said seconds before, I believe this list should include redlinks if there's at least one instance of sigcov or there's a plausible claim. Some of these may rely on one, some on the other. Being the first in the city is a plausible claim to notability. Valereee (talk) 15:33, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Babiana Club Less: very iffy. Lacking sigcov. Leaving a redlink for now simply because it's mentioned as one of the few places in the city. Valereee (talk) 17:43, 14 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Bigudi. Plausible claim, first in Istanbul. Not sigcov, source does not appear to have editorial oversight. Very iffy inclusion, but for now I'll leave it redlinked. Valereee (talk) 18:41, 14 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Bond Street Bar: Iffy, but sources say it was a women's club as far back as the 30s, so likely notable. Leaving as a redlink for now. Valereee (talk) 12:57, 16 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Owl and Pussycat is the original name of the Key West Hotel from a former location, probably should just be a redirect if TKWH article is created. Deleted. Valereee (talk) 13:34, 16 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think it would be helpful to define "lesbian bar" at the top of the page. Some queer bars have a lesbian nights, or a mixed crowd with a lesbian focus, and it is unclear if these would be included in this list? PigeonChickenFish (talk) 23:45, 14 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think the list should only include establishments which have specifically been described as "lesbian", or catering to a lesbian clientele, by reputable publications. Having dedicated events or nights is not sufficient, IMO. ---Another Believer(Talk)23:53, 14 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Some earlier U.S. clubs in the 1930s and 1940s were often labeled as "mixed crowd" but may have had a lesbian focus (such as the Paper Doll Club in San Francisco, however the Paper Doll is historically associated with lesbian culture). I think these should be on this list, but then it complicates the definition if we are not consistently applying the same criteria? PigeonChickenFish (talk) 23:59, 14 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Definitely agree a definition is in order. We also could add a column to designate a bar as "queer", which is apparently something new bars are opening up as. Valereee (talk) 11:47, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Well...according to the sources, that's actually complicated. Some lesbian bars have either implicitly or explicitly repositioned as queer. Some new bars are opening as lesbian+queer. Are you thinking a bar has to identify throughout its history as only-for-lesbians to be included here? Valereee (talk) 14:49, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No, but there should be sources specifically describing a bar as lesbian if we're going to include them in a list of notable lesbian bars. Queer Bar caters to the queer community but that doesn't mean we should add to a list of lesbian bars. ---Another Believer(Talk)14:59, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Is there a specific term for a queer bar that leans historically lesbian? Could this page contain two distinct lists in order to distinguish these entities? PigeonChickenFish (talk) 19:43, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
As far as I know, there isn't. I'm not sure two lists would work, as many lesbian bars are evolving into lesbian+queer bars, and some new bars are opening positioning themselves as lesbian+queer. But that hasn't really developed a name yet; currently queer bar redirects to gay bar. Valereee (talk) 11:05, 16 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, PigeonChickenFish you reverted my correction to the date of origin of the New Moon Lesbian Cabaret in List of Lesbian Bars with the source quote "It all started in the 1980s", but the actual quote is "Tout commence au milieu des années 80, quand cet ancien cabaret lesbien à la déco kitch et aux sièges de velours rouge devient un lieu rock avec à sa tête Eric Débris (ex-membre du groupe punk Métal Urbain." ("It all started in the mid-1980s, when this former lesbian cabaret with kitsch decor and red velvet seats became a rock venue headed by Eric Débris (ex-member of the punk group Métal Urbain.")
So the club had previously been a Lesbian cabaret when it converted to a rock venue in the 1980s. I did end up creating a page for the club, and found a source (listed there) that says it was a lesbian cabaret in the 1960s and 70s, then converted to an alternative rock club in the 1980s. (http://copro9.free.fr/Documents/nouvelleathenes/index.html] I'm using these dates instead of the origin date of the building as a cafe/nightclub, which would have been 19th century.ABF992 (talk) 20:09, 25 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
