Talk:List of dukes of Milan

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Margraves of Milan

Did margraves of Milan not rule Milan? Surtsicna (talk) 15:23, 10 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Split

Splitting this article should be discussed first. From the beginning this article has covered both lords and dukes. Srnec (talk) 03:48, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Nederlandse Leeuw: Why do you hate the word "rulers" so much? Srnec (talk) 00:32, 13 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oh hi Srnec, I hadn't seen your comment from 03:48, 12 August 2023 until now, sorry. I WP:BOLDly split it already in hopes of making the distinction and categorisation easier.

The reason why I find the word "rulers" unhelpful is that it is very ambiguous and can mean so many different things to so many different people in so many different times and places and contexts. You might compare it to how you object Occitan troubadours being called "French" and therefore assumed to sing in French (which is usually wrong), or how you prefer making clear what people really mean when they use the word "Latin" in various contexts (as you have explained very well earlier today).

For example, the very generalising manner in which the phrase "women rulers" has been used on English Wikipedia has been unhelpful in helping both readers and editors understand what their position in society really was. Just today I found out that 10th-century "women rulers" had eleven different meanings:

Category:10th-century women regents
Category:10th-century empresses regnant
Category:10th-century empresses consort
Category:10th-century queens regnant
Category:10th-century queens consort
Category:10th-century princesses regnant
Category:10th-century princesses consort
Category:10th-century princess-abbesses
Category:10th-century duchesses consort
Category:10th-century countesses regnant
Category:10th-century countesses consort

Lumping them all together as "women rulers" is just not very helpful if we want to understand the lives of these women, what their position in society was. A countess consort didn't have any formal power, and usually very little informal influence in practice either, but the power of an empress regnant was huge. That matters. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 01:00, 13 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe, but lumping together the lords and dukes of Milan does seem helpful to me. As would lumping together the counts of Edessa and Tripoli, the princes of Antioch and the kings of Jerusalem as "rulers of the Latin East". For what it's worth, I think a list of dukes separate from the duchy article is pointless and I would turn this into a redirect while adding a plain list (NO OVERWROUGHT TABLE!) to the duchy article. Srnec (talk) 16:35, 14 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]