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Albanian naming

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I think albanian naming for the illyrian tribes should be added too --91.187.103.40 (talk) 09:21, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am sorry, but Modern Albanian names of Illyrian tribes are completely irrelevant, as they are modern Albanian adaptations of the classical names. They do not, ever, represent direct historical linguistic reflexes of the original names, therefore they do not add any information. Please refer to any introductory textbook in Historical Linguistics to understand why this is the case. Pasquale (talk) 19:49, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps, I should clarify. Adding the Modern Albanian names of Illyrian tribes is as irrelevant as adding the Modern German names of ancient Germanic tribes to the List of Germanic peoples; e.g. Chauken, Cherusker, Ampsivarier, Chamaven, Brukterer, Marser, Chatten, Hermunduren, Langobarden, Semnonen, Burgunder, Vandalen, Markomannen, Quaden, etc. These names are all modern German adaptations of the respective Latin names: Chauci, Cherusci, Ampsivarii, Chamavi, Bructeri, Marsi, Chatti, Hermunduri, Langobardi, Semnones, Burgundi, Vandali, Marcomanni, Quadi, etc. On rare occasions, modern German toponyms are indeed derived from the ancient tribal names, but in those cases, they refer to regions, not to tribes, and have a very different appearance, because they have undergone two thousand years of language change; e.g. Hamaland from the name of the Chamavi, Hessen from the name of the Chatti, etc. (Of course, no German user is asking to add the German names of Germanic tribes to the List of Germanic peoples in the English Wikipedia.) In the case of the Illyrian tribes, as I repeat, they are all clearly modern Albanian adaptations of the classical names. Pasquale (talk) 18:57, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Greek nomenclature for Illyrian tribes is a corruption of the Illyrian nomenclature. Albanian is the only language directly descended from Illyrian, so Albanian naming is far more relevant than Greek naming, Latin naming, Chinese naming, whatever. Modern Albanian always represents a direct linguistic relationship to Ancient Illyrian concepts. Modern Albanian is as related to Ancient Illyrian as Modern Greek is related to Ancient Greek. Vulgar Latin and Koine Greek, which form the foundations of contemporary Romance and contemporary Greek respectively, are in fact less reliable. If any linguist bothered to utilize Albanian in interpreting ancient Illyrian and Messapian, a larger yield of study could be gathered.

The OP is justified. Most people who believe themselves to be qualified to discern anything about Illyria are supremely biased, believing Albanian is a language which simply sprouted in the Twentieth Century. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.243.47.58 (talk) 00:07, 17 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There is not a single proof of connection between Illyrian and Albanian by an respected linguist anywhere in the world. There are only small group of right wing Albanian nationalist historians who are trying to find a connection and they so called findings are thrown away and heavilly disputed. There are many grammatical similarities,personal names and toponims in croatian,serbian and bosnian language that are belived to be originated from Illyrian but there are no one to claim that we use illyrian names in those languages for Illyrian tribes in this article (for example latin name for Illzrian tribe Delmatae, is today Croatian: Dalmatinci or Serbian: Далматинци). I think that zou are pursung your agenda which is not in accord og wikipedia NPOV. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.216.144.20 (talk) 23:38, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Its interesting that you took Dalmatia as example because Albanian word for "sheep" is "delme" from which come the name for Dalmatia the "land of sheeps", ironically "Albanian nationalist historians" dont give a ***** about Illyrian and Albanian history they would sell anything for a buck, but thanks to many other linguists and historins like the Croatian Alexander Stipcevic and many others we have more and more proof and connection between Albanian and some ancient balkan languages. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.209.156.131 (talk) 17:16, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

READ CAREFULLY: Albanian is descended from a Paleo-Balkan language, full stop. That's something all linguists agree on. Which of them is a matter of debate, and it's not of the article's concern. However, there are some etymologies of ancient Illyrian towns, rivers etc. linked with Albanian. Not all of them have Albanian etymologies. Some have Celtic etymologies for example, and Albanian in no way, is Celtic. There are different grammatical rules, so don't argue with that. That said, despite some Illyrian place-names have been linked to Albanian, Albanian wasn't written until late in the Middle Ages, meaning the original Albanian pronunciation of those place-names with Albanian etymologies IS LOST, therefore it cannot be written. Just to repeat, the Greek and Latin names have been written somewhere for linguists to find them, Albanian was not written. Not to mention, there's the endonym/exonym problem. Illyria was an exonym, not an endonym, therefore it cannot be translated in Albanian, Illyrians very likely called themselves with a different name. In the same way Greeks call themselves "Ellinika", not "Greek". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.136.155.232 (talk) 20:03, 25 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Albanian names for Dardanians and Illyrians should be added. It is the Albanian version of the tribe so why should it not be used? its even used in third-party sources... See below.

Namenforschung / Name Studies / Les noms propres. 1. Halbband — Preceding unsigned comment added by Albanian Historian (talk • contribs) 07:47, 8 February 2016 (UTC) --Albanian Historian (talk) 07:49, 8 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

"Members of the Illyrian tribe of Dardanet were early inhabitants of the region that now includes Kosovo. The area was incorporated into the Roman Empire in the first century BC, then into the Byzantine and Bulgarian empires during the Middle ..."

Culture Grams — Preceding unsigned comment added by Albanian Historian (talk • contribs) 07:51, 8 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Please see WP:NOTDICT. --Omnipaedista (talk) 22:43, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Map accuracy

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Tribes in Illyricum and environs in AD 6, the year of the Great Illyrian revolt, post Roman conquest

this map doesn't look very accurate, forex the Iapydes shouldn't they be much more far south between Kupa and Una rivers ? Cunibertus (talk) 19:45, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Of course it's not accurate, Megistias made sure to bring it as north as possible. You should bring the concern to the talk page of the map and potentially rework it. I have no desire to play with maps. --Sulmues (talk) 20:11, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Albani and Ardiaei

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Can we split these from this list article? --Doktor Plumbi (talk) 16:33, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I independently came to the same conclusion for Ardiaei, will do that now. It's disproportionate as is. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 17:39, 4 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

People = Tribe?

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We are living in the 21st century but this list and categorization is obviously based on knowledge from the 19th. There are 2 modern categorizations, according to Wilkes and according to Katičić, differing in a detail. None of it is presented and used here! How come?

Very important. "Illyrians" is geo-political term from the age of the Roman conquest, it's not ethnical or cultural.

This is the real ethno-cultural categorization:

1. Southern Illyrians (proprie dicti)

2. Delmati

3. Liburni

4. Histri

5. Iapodes

6. Pannonians

7A. Eastern Dalmatian group - by Wilkes

7B. Pannonian - Dalmatian group - by Katičić

7A - Eastern Dalmatian group (Pirustae, Glinditiones) were one special group according to Wilkes; according to Katičić they were Dalmatian - Pannonians.

7B - Pannonian - Dalmatian (or Dalmatian - Pannonian) group were one special group settled in the regions of central and eastern Dalmatia and southern Pannonia (Roman provinces Dalmatia and Pannonia) according to Katičić. Sometimes, name "Southern Pannonians" is used for them. They were under Celtic influence, but much less than the Pannonians.

(Katičić's version is revision of Wilkes and more actual and accurate.) These groups (1-7) must be treated as separate peoples. Not tribes. Each one consists of smaller tribes! Therefore none of your map is useful. You should make one map showing distribution of these general groups - peoples, and additional maps for every group separately. You cannot define the Delmatians as the Illyiarn tribe, because they were not Illyrian tribe, they were separate people. But you can define Ardiaei or Taulanti as the Illyrian tribes, because they were some of the tribes of the Southern Illyrian group (Ilyrii proprie dicti). 93.143.28.172 (talk) 10:57, 25 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Celtic tribes

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There are 12 small stub articles about Celtic tribes in Illyria; maybe they should be grouped into this or another article like the Illyrian tribes have been? --Joy [shallot] (talk) 14:04, 7 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed; working on a couple (merging in). Klbrain (talk) 11:39, 8 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

 Done for another 5 of the smallest entries. Klbrain (talk) 15:55, 8 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Celtic presence in Pannonia?

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I'm leaving here a link to an article by Xavier Delamarre (celticist):

Delamarre Xavier. Cú Chulainn en Pannonie ? Calonius, Cucalus, Cucalonis. In: Etudes Celtiques, vol. 43, 2017. pp. 143-146. DOI : https://doi.org/10.3406/ecelt.2017.1098 [www.persee.fr/doc/ecelt_0373-1928_2017_num_43_1_1098] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2804:14D:5CE7:8E72:EC12:30AF:8230:EF8C (talk) 00:54, 1 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Adriatic Veneti and Liburnians

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Hi @Omnipaedista:, the reason for my editing is very simple: Source 147 Wilkes, J. J. The Illyrians, 1992, ISBN 0-631-19807-5, page 183, "We may begin with the Venetic peoples, Veneti, Carni, Histri and Liburni, whose language set them apart from the rest of the Illyrians ..." (actually the source itself clarified that Veneti were distinct from Illyrians, so whoever made this addition contradicted himself). Also, from the Adriatic Veneti page: However, this identification of the Adriatic Veneti as Illyrians has been discredited by many linguists[7] Hans Krahe and later Anton Mayer showed that Herodotus was not referring to the Adriatic Veneti, but to an Illyrian tribe that lived in the borderlands of northern historical Macedonia.[8] Later linguistic and paleontological studies further solidified their findings.[9]

As for the Liburnians, I've found contradicting evidence: the Liburnian language page says that some Liburnian anthroponyms are Venetic, meanwhile others are Illyrian. Maybe the deletion altogether of the Liburnian section was hasted, the paragraph may very well just specify that their Illyrian ethnic affiliation is in doubt without deleting the whole thing. What do you think? Herakliu (talk) 10:18, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"[Their] language set them apart from the rest of the Illyrians" means they were based in Illyria. The title of the article is "List of ancient tribes in Illyria." There is no need for removal. --Omnipaedista (talk) 15:59, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
You are right, I should have read better. By this definition though not all the Venetic tribes listed in this page qualify to be part of it, the Carni for example were surely not based in Illyria. Herakliu (talk) 17:18, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
You are right. Feel free to remove inappropriate entries. --Omnipaedista (talk) 18:28, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Merge

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How is List of ancient Illyrian peoples and tribes (created 2017) supposed to differ from this article (created 2005)? Srnec (talk) 00:37, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Srnec: it should be merged into this article, which needs to be updated and restructured according to recent scholarship. – Βατο (talk) 13:26, 2 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I think that we should merge this article to List of ancient Illyrian peoples and tribes, delete this one and remove all non-Illyrian populations. An area was called part of an Illyria in the Balkans, to the extent that its people were called Illyrians. The Phrygians didn't live in Illyria. They lived in an area which became Illyria after the Phrygians migrated to Asia Minor and Illyrians built new settlements in their former territories.--Maleschreiber (talk) 21:21, 2 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
And we should remove tribes which had an Illyrian component or influence. There is a clear distinction in ancient sources between the Dardani who are mentioned as Illyrians whenever they are mentioned as part of a larger identity and the Scordisci who were a people who had an Illyrian component, but were not Illyrians. As the Scordisci were not an Illyrian people, their territory is never considered part of pre-Roman Illyria in ancient sources.--Maleschreiber (talk) 21:24, 2 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm also very much in favour to merge it to List of ancient Illyrian peoples and tribes and create a clear order and structure concerning the several Illyrian tribes. Its a good approach for the moment. Iaof2017 (talk) 23:54, 2 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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