Talk:List of Mensans/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Discussion

As much as I understand what is going on here, I think this is a bad idea. Mensa itself is an international organization whose qualifications consist solely of intelligence (well, of doing well on intelligence tests, at any rate.) I would imagine that many Mensa members would object to being classified by ethnicity, and I don't see how the resulting list would be meaningful or useful. I would advise abandoning this project, and I will probably AFD this if it is not deleted. --Brianyoumans 21:05, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Ah, that part has been removed. Well, a list of Mensans is not very interesting to me, but it may be an inevitable sort of article to have.--Brianyoumans 21:08, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

This should be converted to a category. — Chameleon 00:01, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Deja vu all over again

<Heavy sigh!> … I can't believe we're going down this road again … I guess no one remembers Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of famous members of Mensa (2nd nomination) which said, "Make it a Category," only to have the Category deleted less than a year later (Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2007 March 8#Category:Members of Mensa) … considering I've already been through this a couple of times already, I'm just going to sit back and watch the fur fly, except for one observation and minor edit … the name of the list may no longer contain the contentious word "famous," but it is not restricted to living or current members (like Isaac Asimov), so I have changed "who are Members" to "who have been Members." :-)

I'll close with an observation that this may qualify for deletion as a violation of Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons regarding Verifiability and Original Research, as per the arguments made in the AfD and CfD discussions already mentioned … and someone should research a citation for Angela Melini, or else it's history from this list (see what is meant by "nearly impossible to maintain?") … Happy Editing! —72.75.65.41 (talk · contribs) 04:37, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

OK, I didn't have anything better to do, so I've added another WP:RS citation for some of the names, and removed a few per WP:BLP, i.e., there is either no mention of Mensa membership in their article, or else it is an assertion unsubstantiated by a citation. —72.75.65.41 05:06, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Repopulating this list

On 2007-03-13, a bot was used to remove the "Category:Members of Mensa" tags from articles as a result of Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2007 March 8#Category:Members of Mensa ... I suggest that those articles be reviewed individually for inclusion in this list, but only if they also have a WP:RS that can be cited ... most, but not all, had been vetted, so they need to be checked again. —72.75.65.41 16:20, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Stop including Jodie Foster

Jodie Foster has denied being a member of Mensa herself during an interview on Italian television. See the video: http://www.chetempochefa.rai.it/TE_videoteca/1,10916,1087787,00.html. This is solid proof from a party (Foster) involved. Now there's a possibility of Foster being secretely a member and denying it in public. In that case, we'd need word from Mensa itself, which there isn't now. ☆ CieloEstrellado 04:07, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

We don't need the information to come from Mensa, however, in the case of the provided reference for her membership, this information comes DIRECTLY from the American Mensa website (via a reprint of a news article). The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is Verifiability, not truth. The stable version of the article (which has existed for some time now) contains a source for her membership that satisfies WP:RS: http://www.spacecoast.us.mensa.org/WhyBother.html The Italian-language video clip (which I only understand a few words from and which is VERY long) doesn't satisfy this requirement (this is English Wikipedia). Please don't revert this any more. Nobody of Consequence (talk) 06:40, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

To those of you coming from Wikipedia:Third opinion, please also take a look at User talk:Nobody of Consequence and User talk:CieloEstrellado for more on this matter. ☆ CieloEstrellado 06:59, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Hello, I'm reviewing this case as a third opinion. Is it possible to get a translated video clip? Here on Wikipedia, it is preferred that any sourcing be in English. Dusti^SPEAK!! 14:38, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Hi again Dusti. That was part of the problem I had with the reference. RAI is highly-regarded, but most of the interview is in Italian. Even when Foster speaks in English, it's turned down in the sound mix and the Italian translation is much louder, obfuscating it. Also, it's a very long clip, so it seems unreasonable to expect people to watch the entire thing while they wait for her to make the Mensa statement (there's no timer on the clip either so the time point can't be added to the ref template). Thanks for taking the time to review, I'm willing to go along with whatever comclusion you come to. Nobody of Consequence (talk) 16:49, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

3rd Opinion

If I'm concluding correctly, the entire dispute is over the video clip. My opinion is that if the video clip cannot be A) shortened, and/or B) translated into English it should not be included in the article. I would also like both editors to remember 3RR if you get into a content dispute again. I did leave a message on both of your pages. One commented on mine and requested that I remember to not template the regulars. My response to that is if I were to take the time and just write you a note, it would have said the same thing, only not had the nice shiny warning triangle on it. Also, if you consider yourself an established editor, you should already know the policy and abide by it. Anyway, sorry for getting off on another subject. My opinion is only my opinion, take it for what its worth. If you have any quesitons or comments, see my talk page. Cheers, Dusti^SPEAK!! 18:38, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to have to concur, it's not even in English and it is too long. --Banime (talk) 20:40, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

foster states during the interview, in english, that she is not a member of mensa. that trumps all other sources, even mensa, unless they're prepared to open their membership roster to public perusal (which would likely be a privacy violation). she says she's not a member of mensa - ergo, she's not a member of mensa. Anastrophe (talk) 05:03, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't trump. The video is primarily in Italian, is extremely long, and even when Foster does speak in English, it's mixed way down and mostly obscured by the Italian overdub. The source stating she is a member originates with the Orlando Sentinel, but was reprinted on an official American Mensa website. They would not have added it to their website if she was not a member, so as far as I'm concerned it's as good as Mensa acknowledging her membership. Given her extremely private nature about her personal life, it's most likely she denied that she's a member because she wants to protect her privacy. Nobody of Consequence (talk) 05:11, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

i repeat, foster states in english that she is not a member. complaints about the length of the video or the quality of the mix are irrelevant. if you watch, and listen, you'll hear her state that she's not a member. the reprint of the article claims that it's from the orlando sentinel - that carries no reliability, it's not the actual source article. the other references you added are to celebrity news/gossip sites, also no reliability as sources. jodie foster is a reliable source for jodie foster. the interview trumps all sources that have been tendered. Anastrophe (talk) 02:35, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

(ec) One telling statement I found on Anastrophe's own userpage: As the Essjay controversy showed, you cannot rely upon what an editor claims about him/herself with any reliability at all.. This can be applied to anyone, not just editors. We have three reliable sources stating she is a member. The sources satisfy WP:RS. The Orlando Sentinel is reliable, CBS News is reliable, and Vergin Media is reliable. That is all that matters. A cited reliable source is a cited reliable source. The information is Verifiable. The video with poor quality audio and extreme length does not trump. Nobody of Consequence (talk) 02:37, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

If the Orlando Sentinel article was taken stright from their website, or cited from a hard copy newspaper, you'd still be deleting these entries. Your arguments hold no water. Nobody of Consequence (talk) 02:42, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

please confine yourself to the issue at hand, rather than personal attacks. your claim here is offensive, as you are not in a position to predict another editor's future behavior. please stop. Anastrophe (talk) 02:47, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

um, did you bother to actually read anything other than that excerpt? you miss the point entirely. jodie foster is not an anonymous editor - you are, as am i. jodie foster most certainly is a reliable source for jodie foster. the orlando sentinel has not been used as a source in this matter. find that original article, then you might have a claim that it's reliable, but the page you are referencing has zero reliability, none, zip, nada. CBS news may be reliable, but entertainment/celebrity gossip pages are generally not accepted as reliable for specific details about a public person. same for the virgin media page, which is not an actual news page at all but a photo slideshow with commentary - not reliable. the video has excellent quality audio, perhaps you need a better system to listen to it. foster is easily heard. the length of the clip is irrelevant, as i've already pointed out. will you please point me to what policy precludes use of a video source because it is "too long", or because you have trouble listening to it? Anastrophe (talk) 02:45, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

I will not continue to argue whether any of these sources fulfills the WP:RS requirement: they do. There is nothing at all wrong with a reporint of an article ON AN OFFICIAL MENSA WEBSITE. I have added a fourth reference, from the Sydney Morning Herald. I have made no personal attack and your accusation is wholly without merit. If you disagreem feel free to report me at WP:AN/I if you're that upset. Nobody of Consequence (talk) 02:53, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

stating "If the Orlando Sentinel article was taken stright from their website, or cited from a hard copy newspaper, you'd still be deleting these entries." is a personal attack. please refrain from doing so, it doesn't help your argument at all. Anastrophe (talk) 03:00, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

It's not a personal attack. Claiming personal attacks where there are none doesn't help your argument either. In any case, I've requested an analysis of the sources here [1]. If you agree to abide by their determination, I will also. Nobody of Consequence (talk) 03:18, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

It's possible she is a former member. I just logged on and queried their membership directory, and she is not in it. They state, "As per the Constitution of Mensa, members must 'permit their names and addresses to be published in duly authorized listings.' Mensa International, Ltd. defines name and address to include name, city and state for listing purposes." So if you're a member, you're at least on the list, though your address, phone, e-mail are listed at your discretion. Antandrus (talk) 06:01, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

I thought about doing that too (to try and prove she's a member), but I'm pretty sure doing so is considered WP:OR. Nobody of Consequence (talk) 06:04, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Jodie Foster is gone. Let's move on. Nobody of Consequence (talk) 18:18, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

not that it's admissible as reliable, but i recieved the following reply from mensa this morning:

Hi -

Jodie Foster is not in our database.

Best, Catherine Barney Marketing Director American Mensa, Ltd. MarketingDirector@AmericanMensa.org www.us.mensa.org

Anastrophe (talk) 15:15, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Peter Foster

The article about Peter Foster (an Australian conman) has been repeatedly edited by anonymous IPs and single-purpose accounts attempting to promote him, sometimes adding 'sources' that don't support the claims attributed to them. One of those IPs is 123.211.78.219, who has repeatedly deleted talk page discussion about unreliably-sourced claims and has deleted maintenance/accuracy tags from the article. For that reason, I've deleted his/her addition of Foster to this list on the assumption that it's part and parcel of that vandalism/promotion; given the man's history, a magazine interview is not a 'reliable source', even if it does indeed claim him to be a member of Mensa. --GenericBob (talk) 06:59, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Why do you delete my valid post?

A valid reference, two valid references and a signature, are you going to undo the changes to List of Mensans again? --Arne Schwarck (talk) 15:45, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

The person is non-notable and the sources are not reliable. This is not a list of all people who claim to be Mensans, but a list of notable people with reliable sources verifying their Mensa membership. Since the person you keep adding is you, you also need to mind WP:COI. Your edits can be seen as spamming. Please also stop creating the cross-namespace redirect as those are speedy deleted per WP:CSD#R2. Prolog (talk) 16:09, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Show me a valid post, Say Scott Adams, it links to AskMen and states nothing about mensa! I give you a membership number and all, call them up and ask if you don't think the authenticity is correct. Look at Asia Carrera – Pornographic actress and blogger, the link does not even come up with her name!! How do you find that a valid reference? If you would really be interested in promoting this specific page, then you are not doing a good job about it. --41.247.102.102 (talk) 09:19, 24 March 2009 (UTC) —Preceding Arne Schwarck comment added by Kcoutu (talk • contribs)

There used to be a more WP:RS reference for Scott Adams … Asia Carrera's reference is

"They're Accomplished, They're Famous, and They're MENSANS". Mensa Bulletin (476). American Mensa: p. 23. 2004. ISSN 0025-9543. {{cite journal}}: |pages= has extra text (help); Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)

which is easily verifiable; it's an article published by the organization about current members … I fail to see a problem. :-) — 138.88.40.149 (talk) 21:55, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Chesley Sullenberger

The article for Chesley Sullenberger says,

"At the age of 12, his IQ was deemed high enough to join Mensa International."

but it does not say that he actually joined (nor does the cited reference) … my own IQ was determined to be "high enough" while in the 4th grade (age 9), but I did not become a dues-paying member until I was in my late 20s … by definition, over six million American citizens have an IQ that is "high enough", but only 50,000 have actually joined.

Someone needs to find a citation that says he actually joined the organization (even if he is no longer a member) before his name can be added to the list … Happy Editing! — 141.156.165.77 (talk · contribs) _{03:01, 10 June 2009 (UTC)}

Dead link

Hello fellow editors … the following link evaporated last month:

Charlotte/Blue Ridge Mensa. "Famous Mensans." CBR Mensa website [2]

This was the only reference for the following individuals:

If their membership is mentioned in their main article, it uses the same {{dead link}} … since I have not been able to find another WP:RS for them, I have removed them from this list. Happy Editing! — 141.156.175.125 (talk · contribs) _{15:41, 1 August 2009 (UTC)}

Done … looks like Some Other Editor found the correct URL and restored these members … Kudos! … I have replaced the {{dead link}} instances in three of the subject articles … Lucy Irvine has no mention of her membership, but I'll leave that for Some Other Editor. :-) — 141.156.175.125 (talk) _{07:18, 2 August 2009 (UTC)}

Charles Ingram

Should Charles Ingram be listed as quiz show cheater? Was it ever proven or was he just suspected/accused? I can't find anything definitive just different "he said she said" stuff. --Banime (talk) 19:50, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

According to his article, he was convicted of deception. Nobody of Consequence (talk) 20:12, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

I always believed it was still ongoing but I must have missed out. Thanks! --Banime (talk) 20:45, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

The citation for Ingram being a Mensan is simply the BBC quoting Ingram! Lacking any further evidence, I suggest the removal of his listing.Jkister (talk) 05:09, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

dead links

Hello everyone, please don't delete names because a link goes to 404. See WP:DEADLINK. The main reason you have a "date retrieved" in a reference is to show that the link was once active. Even if a web link goes dead doesn't mean the reference ceases to exist, especially with things like the wayback machine. Burpelson AFB (talk) 06:06, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

FYI, I have just placed {{Dead link}} tags on about a dozen entries ... maybe Some Other Editor can find new citations for them. Happy Editing! — 71.166.152.95 (talk · contribs) _{23:35, 17 March 2010 (UTC)}

Self-published sources

Fellow editors ... I noticed that one of the {{Dead link}} subject's was actually a WP:SPS, which can hardly be considered either independent or WP:RS ... consequently, I have removed Kirk Kirkpatrick ... his article also claims membership in the Triple Nine Society, but the link in their article to confirm his membership is on a members-only site that requires registration, so it is hard to verify (but that's a problem for another article. :-) Happy Editing! — 71.166.140.70 (talk · contribs) _{22:46, 11 May 2010 (UTC)}

Empty sections

I reverted the tags added by User:Yobot, but hit the wrong key before completing the edit summary … seriously, were those {{Empty section}} tags going to help create content? — 70.21.13.215 (talk) 04:06, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Leslie Charteris

Leslie Charteris, the author who wrote the Saint books, used to belong to Mensa. He was frequently mentioned in members' newsletters (those very basic-looking yellow ones) in the late 70s, I remember. I no longer belong to it, but if you are a member you could look it up and get a citation.--Storye book (talk) 16:40, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Done The official website for Mensa Italy confirms that Leslie Charteris was a member -- http://www.mensa.it/ . He was indeed a member, and often went to member gatherings in Florida. He wrote at least two articles for the Mensa magazine, which cite him as a member. I found a hardcopy reference as well in Contemporary Authors, New Revision Series and added Charteris back to this list -- Stbodie (talk) 17:28, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Questionable source

The source 15 Celebrities Who Are Actually Smart is used as a source for Quentin Tarantino. The same article claims that Sharon Stone is a member - however, Sharon Stones' claim to membership has been rejected by Mensa itself - see Just brilliant. Is there a reliable source for Tarantinos' membership? Autarch (talk) 13:24, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

International Mensa

Surely some of those listed are (or were) members of national Mensas, not Mensa International?

Mensa International lists some prominent members on their site, with a footnote that some of them are from US Mensa. From their point of view, prominent members can be from any chapter of Mensa. We should probably add these people to Wiki, and add references to listed members where dead refs have occurred? http://www.mensa.org/prominent-mensans -- Stbodie (talk) 22:00, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Strictly taken, technically possibly correct, but ultimately quite irrelevant. When you are a member of a national Mensa, it automatically qualifies you to register with international Mensa --Pereant antiburchius (talk) 20:02, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Exceedingly Low Standard for "Notable"

I do not think that being viewed naked by consumers of erotica/pornography warrants being considered notable. It seems to me that half of the few women on the list are mostly famous for displaying their bodies. I wish someone would replace them with female Mensans whose lives celebrate their exceptional minds. (Kmgx1 (talk) 01:24, 19 April 2012 (UTC))

The definition of notable, as it pertains to biographies, can be found in detail at WP:BIO. The summary is that a person that is discussed in detail in secondary sources is likely notable enough to be included in this tertiary source, whether or not they "deserve" it in a more general way. Concerns about an individuals notability should be taken to the individual biography talk pages, since the existence of the article is what determines inclusion of Mensans on this list. VQuakr (talk) 02:24, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

I see. At least one of the females I question has no wiki stand alone bio/she is merely included on a list of Playboy playmates by month, for 1987. My interpretation of WP:BIO is that appearing on a "trivia laden" list in a wiki article does not confer notability. What do you think VQuakr?(Kmgx1 (talk) 05:01, 19 April 2012 (UTC))

I would agree that someone who merely appears on a list of Playmates does not deserve to be listed in this article. I would say go ahead and remove her entry, and any others where the person doesn't have their own article. The only exception would be persons who clearly deserve an article, but don't have one yet.Brianyoumans (talk) 15:03, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Curious edits WRT notability

These edits have changed the significance of who is listed:[3][4]. No discussion seems to have been initiated by the editor in question - there is a short list of edits on the topic of Mensa from this editor.Autarch (talk) 19:59, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

This is the latest incarnation of a persistent vandal listed here … I have reported them to Wikipedia:Usernames for administrator attention so that they can be blocked like the previous accounts. Happy Editing! — 68.239.69.131 (talk · contribs) _{23:42, 11 November 2012 (UTC)}

Thanks!Autarch (talk) 23:37, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Carmen Ejogo

Carmen Ejogo is a member of MENSA, and she should be put on this list. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.22.144.20 (talk) 23:57, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Periods and sentence case

I noticed that most of the entries here ended with periods, and I recalled reading in WP:MOSDAB that periods should only be used to terminate full sentences and not sentence fragments like these, so I removed them all. I then found WP:MOSLIST which says

"When the elements are complete sentences, each one is formatted with sentence case (i.e. the initial letter is capitalized) and a final period."
"When the elements are sentence fragments [...] Other elements are formatted consistently in either sentence case or lower case [...] No final punctuation is used.'"

I also see this article is a mix of case but mainly sentence case, so I'll change to all sentence case now. I hope these bold changes are acceptable. Squinge (talk) 10:35, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Linking occupations

I also see this article is very heavily linked and confusingly almost completely blue in some cases, and I've already removed some duplications. But looking at WP:OVERLINK I see it includes "common occupations" amongst things that are usually not linked. Based on that, I'm going to unlink all the common occupations. Squinge (talk) 10:45, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

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The letter T

There appears to be a section missing... 180.200.143.39 (talk) 01:58, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

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This is an Incomplete List of Mensans

Dear Wikians,

I feel that the title "List of Mensans" is a little misleading in that this is not even close to a complete list of the well over 100,000 Mensans currently alive. While I know this list is only of the more notable, prominent or famous Mensans, this fact is a little unclear.

So I'm going to do a quick edit to point this out at the top of the page.

Sincerely, Houston McClung III (talk) 07:08, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

Mr. McClung, Mensans listed in the article aren't necessarily notable. A few are indeed famous, but I happen to know one who is simply an avid self-promoter, and I suspect the same status of another one. Some others are probably similarly obscure, and genuine celebrities in the arts and sciences, for example, may be omitted. Thus, the article title is misleading for reasons in addition to the one you note. I don't know what to do about any of these flaws. Cognita (talk) 04:46, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

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Sam Hyde

Guys we gotta add Sam Hyde. I'm sorry https://twitter.com/wigger/status/1619146668544499712 2607:FEA8:9540:16B0:4996:FCA:68EC:9196 (talk) 06:44, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

Lacking Clarity

This list is lacking clarity. Many of the people listed are former members who left for various reasons, often due to negative experiences within Mensa. Isaac Asimov is a notable example who wrote about his experience. There really needs to be clarification if the person is a current or former member and if possible, their reason for leaving. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.177.30.46 (talk) 02:34, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

It is not a current directory. Notable people who have been members of the notable organization. Chemical Engineer (talk) 00:25, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

The article is titled "List of Mensans". If you aren't a member anymore then you aren't a Mensan anymore. It's not hard to grasp. 101.177.30.46 (talk) 05:58, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Jimmy Saville

This serial sex offender has been dead several years. Do dead people still make the list? 2600:1702:38A0:2E30:F539:C60A:3F44:4E30 (talk) 21:18, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

This list is a Mensa policed circle-jerk so I don't like the chances of anyone ever being removed, nor even clarified properly as mentioned in the above section. 101.177.30.46 (talk) 11:59, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

As with other lists, the requirement is simply that they have Wikipedia articles and there is proof that they belong in the category of the list. Chemical Engineer (talk) 00:31, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Notable people who have been members of a notable organization or practised a profession stay on lists even if dead, and irrespective of their moral character. Chemical Engineer (talk) 00:29, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Those former or deceased members are usually clearly indicated though. This list, however, is purposely ambiguous so as to present an artificially inflated count of notable Mensans as if the organisation is currently swimming in them, which a little research shows it definitely isn't. Even total membership numbers are in severe decline, let alone notable members. 101.177.30.46 (talk) 06:11, 28 March 2023 (UTC)