Jump to content

Talk:List of Latin place names in Iberia

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Iberia versus Hispania

[edit]

I strongly recommend that the title of this article be changed to "List of Latin place names in Iberia". In the present day and age, "Iberia" is universally used to refer to Spain plus Portugal. I realize that Latin "Hispania" also referred to the entire Iberian peninsula, but you didn't write Balkans or Continental Europe in Latin, did you? If there were no modern term to refer to the entire peninsula, I would understand the use of the Latin word, but since there is a perfectly good term, namely Iberia, that's the one that should be used. Pasquale 23:33, 11 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm agnostic on this name. Better wait a week or so to see what others think, as this is the first discussion here. However, I'm unaware of a Latin equivalent for the Balkan peninsula or Continental Europe.
--William Allen Simpson 08:39, 12 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
We should keep Hispania. Because that's the name of the peninsula, even today you can use Hispanic Peninsula, alhough it is very rarely used, because Spain took a form of the name to itself. In English, 'Hispania' is often translated as 'Spain', and that is a serious subject. And today, that is even more serious, because many use English sources, and Portuguese history is now refered as Spanish. That is not the case, it is a neutral name, and one will no confuse with Spain.
If we keep Hispania we can see that it relates to the Roman period. At least, in Portuguese both names are seen has different things (hispânia for this period, and Espanha for Spain). Although people prefer to discuss Lusitânia, but when the issue is all the peninsula, people and historians use Hispânia or Iberian Peninsula (in the geographical sence, not just Iberia). And the name, refers to both countries, and has inpact on both countries. Isn't that a Phoenician name? the Phoenincians had strong cultural influence in the Ancient peoples living in the area of Portugal (much more than the Greeks with their Iberia), and they used that name to places in both countries. So Spain, Gaul, Italia, etc... are names suitable for these article because these are articles related with the Roman period and lusitania was a province of the Roman Hispania. For instance, the latin right, was declared to the cities of Hispania (Lusitania included). So, i've no problem with the current situation. -Pedro 15:24, 12 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Pedro, you make some good points, but you also make plenty of incorrect statements.

(1) No one says Hispanic Peninsula in English, I guarantee you, it is always the Iberian Peninsula. Also, there are many university programs in "Latin American and Iberian Studies," an expression meant to cover both Spanish- and Portuguese-speaking Latin America and both Spain and Portugal.

(2) The Latin names listed in these articles do not necessarily relate to the Roman period, as you seem to think. As William Allen Simpson makes perfectly clear, they are Latin names from all ages, some very modern indeed. They are in Latin form simply because Latin was the European language of culture throughout the centuries. And Simpson did not name the other articles "List of Latin place names in Italia", or "List of Latin place names in Britannia and Hibernia", etc., so why "List of Latin place names in Hispania"?

(3) The term Iberia relates to the Roman period just as much as Hispania. Iberia was used in Greek, but was not Greek in origin. It was the native name of the Iberians (Iberes). Granted, the Iberians only lived in the Eastern and Southern portions of the Iberian Peninsula (reaching into Southern Portugal, although just barely), however, culturally speaking, they held sway over the entire peninsula. Variants of the Iberian script were adopted by the Celtiberians, the Lusitanians, the Tartessians, in the sense that these scripts are all clearly derived from the Iberian script. Geographically and culturally speaking, "Iberia" clearly applied to the entire peninsula. Remember Maximus, the fictional character in the movie "The Gladiator"? In the movie, he is called "Spaniard". Now, guess how you say that in Latin. Don't know? I'll tell you. You say "Iber" (and that covers, by extension, the whole Iberian Peninsula, not just the people called Iberians). If that movie were to be dubbed in Latin, they would be calling him "Iber", not "Hispanus" or any such thing.

(4) Yes, (Latin) Hispania is of Phoenician origin, but (Greek) Iberia is of Iberian origin, therefore originally a native name.

(5) As regards the modern usage of "Iberia", please refer to the Wikipedia articles Hispania and Iberian Peninsula. The second one starts off like this: "The Iberian Peninsula, or Iberia, is located in the extreme southwest of Europe." Later it lists the countries in the peninsula, as follows: "Spain, occupying the majority of Iberia; Portugal, the westernmost part; etc." The article on Hispania says: "Iberia and Hispania refer not just to modern Spain but to the whole peninsula; Hispania can also rarely include the western part of Roman Mauretania in what is now Morocco." You can clearly see that Iberia is more precise, since we are not including Mauretania here.

Pasquale 21:12, 12 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I see your point, it should be Hispania if the rest is "Italia", "galia", etc... Today noone uses hispanic Peninsula, not even in Portuguese. The Iberia thing relate to Eastern Iberian peninsula, far from Portugal. But, yes, it should be Iberia if one uses "italy", "france", etc. -Pedro 16:01, 20 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, sweet agreement! Moving....
--William Allen Simpson 08:52, 22 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I strongly disagree with the present title and the use of Iberia instead of Hispania or Iberian Peninsula.
  • Iberia is an ambiguous term. It was the Greek term for the peninsula, and also refers to Iberian people, but if we are quotating the latin toponyms in the article, the apropriate name seems to be Hispania, that is the latin name for the whole.
  • -"Yes, I see your point, it should be Hispania if the rest is "Italia", "galia", etc... Today noone uses hispanic Peninsula, not even in Portuguese. The Iberia thing relate to Eastern Iberian peninsula, far from Portugal. But, yes, it should be Iberia if one uses "italy", "france"... This is not exact. If we use Italy or France the equivalent should be Spain and Portugal, because all of them are the names for modern countries, not for the historical ones. If one use geographical denominations Iberian Peninsula should be used.
  • At that time the land was called Hispania by their inhabitans and by the Romans even later under Visigothic domain, and so it was called before under the Roman Empire.
  • The term Iberia is scarcely used nowadays, and it is commonly used in the form "Iberian Peninsula" to limit a geographical precise entity. Iberia is known nowadays in the Spanish speaking (and I think it could happen also to English) more as an Airlines trade group than anything related to geography :-)). It can also be mistaken with the Caucasian Iberia, and this makes the term even more ambiguous. See, for example, in this Wikipedia, the name of the articles inside this category:Category:Kings of Georgia
Therefore, I think that the title should be changed to List of Latin place names in Hispania, if we prefer a historical emphasis in the title, or the longer List of Latin place names in the Iberian Peninsula, if we prefer a geographical emphasis. I rather prefer the former, that gives more information about the historical moment.--Garcilaso 11:01, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I beg to disagree with Garcilaso. This issue was discussed extensively and an agreement was reached on "Iberia". Plenty of reasons are given above. I see no reason to revisit the issue. I doubt anyone will seriously think we're talking about the airline company or, for that matter, Caucasian Iberia in this context. So, personally, I continue to prefer "Iberia". However, I could also go for the longer "Iberian Peninsula" if there is consensus. Pasquale 18:59, 2 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I find "Iberian Peninsula" correct. It describes the geographical entity much clearer than the other names. --Garcilaso 17:20, 3 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • thx for the invitation to the talk page. This should be Hispania if we have Gaul, Italia, etc.
  • I think Iberia is fine, especially if the language is English. It is a small word and everybody knows it is a region of Europe. I've no problem with Iberian Peninsula, but it is a longer word. This is similar to the case of Scandinavia. Much better than using Scandinavian Peninsula.---Pedro 17:48, 3 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • And yes, we have that "Iberian people" problem. But I think it is not a problem (again, if the language is English), it is a rather obscure people. So both are good for me. --Pedro 17:55, 3 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you Pedro, for attending my question. About Hispania, I see the reasons to rule it out: basically, it refers to an ancient denomination, and we are using modern geographical or political names for this series. Anyway, I must say that Italia in that reasoning does not match with Gaul and Hispania, as it named in ancient times only the southest part of the peninsula it:Immagine:Italia colonie.jpg. The point is that Iberia doesn´t match with a modern political entity and, for a geographical definition, Iberian Peninsula is clearer. About that obscure people, the Iberians, the objective of an encyclopedia is to shed light to knowledge and subjects, so poor Iberians must have a chance to be known and not mistaken with others...:-). The only point I see against the preference of Iberian Peninsula is that it makes the title (List of Latin place names in the Iberian Peninsula) a bit longer, but it cannot have much importance when we boast titles like:
and so on. I anyone of the former titles a brief name was preferred better than a precise definition of the terms.
I will agree with any decision you take (this is not that important for me), but I still find "Iberian Peninsula" clearer.

Greetings,--Garcilaso 11:03, 4 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Nuno Tavares' unnecessary split

[edit]

It appears that, yesterday, Nuno Tavares unilaterally decided to split the relatively small article List of Latin place names in Iberia into two smaller articles: List of Latin place names in Spain and List of Latin place names in Portugal. I have undone this split. I would like to remind Wikipedia contributors and users of this and other Template:Latin place names articles that the only reason the original article List of Latin place names in Europe was split into five sections (Balkans, Continental, Iberia, Italy and Malta, and British Isles) is that the article had become too big. But that does not mean that individual articles should be created for each country.

The only reason Nuno Tavares decided to split List of Latin place names in Iberia into two articles seems to be that the Portuguese Wikipedia has two corresponding articles: pt:Topónimos romanos na Espanha and pt:Topónimos romanos em Portugal. I am sorry, but that is not a good enough reason. Pasquale 01:11, 9 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Iberians, Phoenicians, Carthaginians and Arabic origins, of cities names of the iberic peninsula !

[edit]

I don't really understand this article. Indeed the majority cities names of Spain and Portugal, don't have a Latin origin! Like: 

- Cadíz (Gades) or Málaga (Malaca), which are names of phenician origin. 
- Barcelona (Barcino) or Cartagena (nova cartago) of Carthaginian origin. 
- Adra, Albacete, Algeciras, Almería, Calatayud, Córdoba, Granada, Jaén, Madrid, Medina-Sidonia, Valladolid... and much of others are of Arab origin.

Thus I would like more precision on the direction of this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.164.3.178 (talk) 00:42, 25 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Confusion

[edit]

This is way out of my normal editing path, so I'm just going to leave a note here and if anyone is interested they can work on it or contact me if they have questions. This list is very confusing in the way that it links both the Latin and the native name, and the two links often go to different articles, when theoretically they're supposed to be the same town. For example:

These are just a sampling from a few links in one of the sections, there are many more. In my opinion, it would be best to delink all of the Latin names, and leave the links to the proper Iberian towns on the native name side of the list. Exceptions could be made when the Latin name does have a relevant article - for example, Vila Cardílio leads to an article about the Roman ruins. Just my thoughts. Drop a note on my talk page if you have any questions. Dana boomer (talk) 02:40, 17 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It has been standard practice in this and related articles to include links as long as separate articles exist. Often the ruins of the ancient town are found outside the modern town, so that they don't correspond exactly. In other cases, there is a historical discontinuity between the ancient town and the modern town, etc. Therefore, personally, I think things are just fine as they are. Pasquale (talk) 19:22, 19 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Elvas / Dipo ???

[edit]

I'm from Elvas and in school my teacher taught me the city name was, in the Roman times, "Helvis", and then Helvas, never Dipo. Today was the first time I saw this. Could this be a mistake? Plus, the "Dipo" shortcut redirects to an article about something of Ghana, Africa. Tuggaboy (talk) 16:00, 5 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:List_of_Latin_place_names_in_Iberia&oldid=1207960257"