Talk:List of English words of Welsh origin

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Glossaries, a project which is currently considered to be inactive.GlossariesWikipedia:WikiProject GlossariesTemplate:WikiProject GlossariesGlossaries articles

Linguistics Low‑importance

	Linguistics portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Linguistics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of linguistics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.LinguisticsWikipedia:WikiProject LinguisticsTemplate:WikiProject LinguisticsLinguistics articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Languages Low‑importance

	Language portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Languages, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of languages on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.LanguagesWikipedia:WikiProject LanguagesTemplate:WikiProject Languageslanguage articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Wales High‑importance

	Wales portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Wales, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Wales on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.WalesWikipedia:WikiProject WalesTemplate:WikiProject WalesWales articles
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

Lists Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Lists, an attempt to structure and organize all list pages on Wikipedia. If you wish to help, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.ListsWikipedia:WikiProject ListsTemplate:WikiProject ListsList articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

Etymologies

wee - According to the OED, "wee" isn't from Welsh, but a derivative from "pee", which is from the French "pipi". Vashti 07:46, 4 May 2006 (UTC) The OED may well be wrong it has an anti welsh bias, wee and pee are two different words, the welsh Gwy or Wy meaning water is closer both geographically and linguistically.(GJJ)[reply]

The word booth is sometimes thought to derive from Welsh bwthyn, meaning "cottage or small house". However, the OED states a derivation from Middle English bōthe, via East Norse bóa, "to dwell". I repeat the comment above (GJJ)

This list is rapidly shrinking. I suspect what it is is that many languages (English, Welsh, Manx, Gaelic etc) take on board words from similar sources at the same time. The words are related, but not derived from Welsh. Of course, without a source I can't put this theory in the page... :) Vashti 08:20, 4 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, it's tricky :) Words I can think of which might be worth looking up, if you have a full proper OED (I have a Shorter, but not the great big one) are brock (for badger), car (!) and I think flannel. Telsa (talk) 08:30, 4 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I've got online access to the full OED. I'll have my breakfast and then take another look. :) Vashti 08:31, 4 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Okay. "brock" is from Celtic broc; there are corresponding words in Gaelic, Irish, Welsh, Cornish and Breton. Does it still count?

"car" is from Middle English through Latin carra, which came from Old Celtic karros. There are related words in Old and Modern Irish, Gaelic, Old and Modern Welsh, Manx, Breton, German, Dutch... I'll remember that one next time someone tells me Welsh stole "car" straight from English though. I wonder if the ancient Celts had TVs. *whimsical*

"flannel" is good, it can go in! Yay! But I suspect we're going to find that there are very few English words of a purely Welsh origin. I wonder if List of English words of Celtic origin would like these. Vashti 14:37, 4 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think you're right. Eep, I didn't know about List of English words of Celtic origin. Telsa (talk) 09:01, 10 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If all we are doing is repeating what is in the OED, really what is the point, the OED is pretty notorious for it's adherence to the mantra that "there are very few English words of British/Welsh origin", when the truth is that you just won't get them to accept any such words. They brazenly suggest sanskrit as a more likely source of the word Daddy than Welsh/British Tad (or Dad in the vocative)even though sanskrit would not have been known in England and is a much less likely source. (GJJ)

Baby could be in the possible section. The first attested variant in English is Baban which has the Welsh diminutive ending, according to Hogg & Blake(Cambridge hist of Eng) and so is a loan word. I think 150 years later further baby variants occur. To sceptics this is an independent development. But somehow the Old English word barn was superceded by baby. In other languages baba was used more for old woman, the baby meaning is the result of English influence. Andrew Breeze had something to say on the issue but I dont have a copy of his work. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fodbynag (talk • contribs) 07:04, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

GJJ, it's not a "mantra", it's healthy skepticism. If we have literature from outside the OED suggesting Welsh loanwords we should use it, the "baby" case is very interesting, but sound-alike pseudo-etymology like pee-wee-gwy is certainly not the way to go. --dab (𒁳) 12:20, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Another batch

Got an email from an interested friend at the weekend with some more, for anyone who cares to confirm. He has a copy of W. W. Skeat, "Etymological Dictionary of the English Language" (OUP 1879-1882). He says Skeat has suggestions which can go into the Celtic origin list at the very least, and possibly for here: trousers (may be Irish); and quay (various cognates in various Celtic languages). Anything in OED about them? Also, there is apparently a journal, Journal of Celtic Philology, in which he recalls seeing a Celtic origin for brag suggested. I haven't actually tried to find this one yet. Telsa (talk) 09:01, 10 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm proposing the following deletions

At the bottom of Wikipedia's List of Arabic loanwords in English you can find links to five whole books devoted to the etymology of English words. The books are freely downloadable. On the basis of what's in those books, I propose to delete from the current list of Welsh-origin words Balderdash, Bard, Brock, Car, Druid, Freckle, Mither, Piebald, Quim

Dictionary English Etymology by Eric Partridge (1966) downloadable says: "Brock = badger, from Old English broc, lit ‘the speckled (beast)’: cf Gaelic breac = variegated, and Welsh brech, brych, = variegated-brown, brindled brown; cf Gaelic broc, Cornish broch, = badger." cf means crossref and it does not imply a derivation.

Druid comes to English from Latin (Julius Caesar's writings use the word), which in turn took it from Gaulish, not Welsh. Same goes for "Car". See e.g. http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=druid

Freckle: Middle English freken, from Old Norse plural freknur, spots, freckles; cf Old Norse freknottr, freckly (Eric Partridge, 1966).

Bard: Bard has Celtic derivation, but not via Welsh; see e.g. www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=bard.

Balderdash: The dictionaries say it's of unknown origin and don't mention a Welsh-origin theory. The dictionary by Weekley, downloadable here says "balderdash: Originally (16th century) poor mixed drink, hence jumbled nonsense. Medieval Latin balductum, strained milk, was similarly used. Origin of both words unknown." The dictionary by Harper here says: "First recorded in 1590s, of unknown origin; originally a jumbled mix of liquors (milk and beer, beer and wine, etc.), transferred 1670s to senseless jumble of words. The dash from dash a word having Scandinavian origin; the balder perhaps cognate with Danish balder "noise, clatter".

Piebald, Skewbald: Some of the etymology dictionaries crossref English 'ball'|balled|bald with Welsh bal. But crossref doesn't imply derivation. They also crossref Gothic bela = a whitefaced horse; and Danish baeldet = bald. The 'pie' part of piebald doesn't have Welsh derivation either; it's usually interpreted as coming from the word magpie. The 'skew' part of skewbald doesn't have a Welsh connection either; see Weekley for details.

Mither: The Wikipedia article says "Late 17th century, unknown origin, possibly Welsh". I didn't see this word in any of the dictionaries. So there's no reference for it. I think it should be deleted on the grounds that it's unreferenced. Plus it's actually of unknown origin according to Wikipedia (plus for most readers it's uninteresting because they've never heard of it -- it's highly provincial, with usage confined to the vicinity of Liverpool area, I believe).

Quim: The Wikipedia article says "a slang term for vagina, may POSSIBLY derive from the Welsh word "cwm" meaning "valley."" This is unreferenced, and pure speculation. Again, I'll delete it on ground I can find no reference for it.

Auxiliary verbs

This article omits the single largest contribution of the Welsh language to the English language: the use of auxiliary verbs. If English were following the Germanic language convention, we would say, for example, "Have you the time?" With the Welsh introduction of auxiliary verbs, this becomes in Modern English, "Do you have the time?" with "do" being the auxiliary to the primary verb, "have". This one change had a greater impact on English than all of the Welsh grammar that was imported into English. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Axeman (talk • contribs) 22:15, 4 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

When did that happen? Martinevans123 (talk) 22:21, 4 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The question of auxiliary verbs is a complex one. They don't appear in Old Welsh or in early middle Welsh (such as the Mabinogi) to a large degree and they were, until very recently (certainly when I was at University studying Welsh 25 years ago) more or less frowned upon in the literary language, which suggest that they are a more modern introduction into the language. Most 'folk' songs of the 17th and 18th centuries don't really use them either which suggests again that their use is fairly modern. 25 years ago native speakers still used a lot of the short forms of the verb (i.e. non-auxiliary) and the autonomous forms of the verb (i.e forms ending in -ir, -wyd etc) were still being recorded in spontaneous speech from informants in areas where Welsh predominated. This all indicates that the 'auxiliary verbs' are actually quite new in Welsh. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.0.4.122 (talk) 03:26, 18 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"Welsh words used in English" / derivation from Welsh both appear errant

The section "Welsh words used in English" appears to be a complete fabrication. These are not used in English in the sense of adopted words, they're just Welsh words. TBH I've never heard these being used as English words with the exception of the word "cwm" used by hill-walkers to refer to Welsh valleys. Indeed this whole page seems a bit of a stretch at first sight - using "Welsh" suggests that the words are not Brythonic in origin that they have been passed direct from modern (or at least Middle) Welsh to modern English rather than hanging around amongst speakers in the varies areas of England from the days of the Britons.

The first word "crag" claimed to be "derived from Welsh" is in the first source claimed to be derived from Celtic. I didn't look any further but this doesn't really inspire confidence particular as this was one of the few words with a reference.

IMO this article needs a serious rewrite to adopt a NPOV. Pbhj (talk) 02:01, 31 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

             However I thought it was generally accepted that Crag derives from the Welsh 'Craig' or perhaps from a dialect variation in Cumberland/Southern Scotland of that word. The Dictionary of the Scottish Language which has the same status as the OED for Scots (ie. an academic dictionary published over a number of years by an academic institution working with other academicians and experts on Scots and English and other languages spoken in Scotland) does suggest that it is related to Irish Creag and Welsh Craig.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.0.4.122 (talk) 02:58, 18 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Former contents of loanwords category

"Category:Welsh loanwords" which is being deleted per this discussion contains the following articles that are not already linked from this article:

DexDor (talk) 06:30, 27 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Bard, bardd and bardis

The English 'bard' is unlikely to come from 'bardis' - a word which doesn't appear in the Dictionary of the Scottish Language (the equivalent of the OED for Scots). I would assume that the word is 'new' (too new to be in the dictionary). THe DSL does have a word Bard which it clearly indicates is a borrowing from the Gaelic (Gaidhlig but equally at home in Irish) word Bard which means a poet. I'm going to remove the 'bardis' stuff and add the etymology 'Bard' from Scottish Gaelic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.0.4.122 (talk) 02:53, 18 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Eisteddfod

I know that Eisteddfod is given as 'sitting' (eistedd) and 'bod' (to be) all over the internet but I think this is wrong, I have just checked in Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru (the University of Wales Welsh Dictionary) which is the definitive dictionary of the Welsh language and it give the derivation as being from Eistedd (sitting) and Bod meaning 'dwelling' (as occurs in Cornish 'Bos') and also in Welsh. It therefore is not derived from 'Bod' to be. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.0.4.122 (talk) 03:09, 18 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Bow

It is suggested that English bow may be derived from Welsh Bwa however Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru says that Welsh Bua is actually a borrowing from the middle English, so the English can't have been borrowed from Welsh. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.0.4.122 (talk) 03:15, 18 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Gorse (not the plant)

I have been carrying out a study of field-names and other features in a small part of Staffordshire. I have found many instances of the name 'Gorse' and they all occur in currently or formerly boggy areas. These include several instances of Gorsey Lane and Gorsey Piece and several instances of the word associated with a village or hamlet name, such as Stonnall Gorse, Weeford Gorse and Footherley Gorse.

Bearing in mind that this part of the West Midlands was once dominated by the Cornovii, I have come to the conclusion that the name Gorse originated in the Iron Age and is Brittonic; further that it is closely related to the present-day Welsh word cors, meaning 'bog' and the probably closely related word corsen meaning 'reeds'.

Some people might be tempted to consider that the word originates from the common name of Ulex europaeus and in one or two cases that may be true. However, careful examination of the landscapes shows that all the instances I have quoted occur in low, boogy or flooded areas where the plant would fail to flourish. Its preferences are for relatively high, well-drained and dryish locations. WallHeath (talk) 13:01, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on List of English words of Welsh origin. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 05:39, 25 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]